I have privately thought this as well. I have had cards come back real head scratchers on subs I did several years ago. One or two cards per sub would grade really low for the condition. Then when they started doling out half grades, I have had cards come back with the half grades when they should have been shoo-in's for at MINIMUM the next grade up. That made me think that maybe the half grades on cards were red flags for the graders to look at for undergraded cards. My last sub in particular, every single card seemed at least one grade too low. That being said, I believe this is a very plausible theory.

I agree Peter that it's a complicated issue with many answers. I also feel the only thing that can really defeat the card doctors is the marketplace. If people stopped buying their product, they would go away, and find another way to rip off the public, like stealing hub caps. But as long as their product is very marketable and in very high demand, they will continue with business as usual.

People are not going to stop buying cards, for the reasons listed above, and others, and perhaps more importantly that many buyers aren't aware of the issue. The only thing that has potential to stop it in my opinion is the criminal justice system.

But the criminal justice system doesn't seem to want to get involved.

L.E. would get involved if enough people made a ruckus. They couldn't simply ignore it. It sounds like Leon has contact information for a lot of these people. All of these "contacts" have email addresses, telephone #'s, etc. where they can EASILY be contacted. Just because L.E. may occassionally monitor the board, doesn't mean they're necessarilly reading all of the threads. Thus, when one of these forgery and/or alteration issues shows up on here, someone could contact L.E. and point them in the direction of the appropriate thread.

I stopped buying PSA product of any value when I started getting trimmed cards back in holders. About 10 years ago I sent 40 PSA T206 cards graded 4-6 to be crossed over by SGC. SGC graded 30 of them, but refused to grade 10, because of minimum grade or trimming. That was a huge eye opener for me.

I live close to Parsippany, and since then I have met the good folks at SGC, including the graders, many many times. I think I would have more reservation about them if I didn't know them a little and how their process works. Correct me if I'm wrong, but they have had the same 2-3 graders behind the curtain for the past decade or more. One of those guys is Bob Luce. I have had countless conversations with him at shows and at their shop about grading standards, and my concerns. These kinds of conversations go a long way toward providing confidence in their product.

My view is if you have doubts and concerns, pick up the phone. Ask to speak to someone at SGC. They will talk to you. Their customer service is excellent. Go to a show and meet the graders. It goes a long way toward providing the comfort so many are seeking.

One of my very first posts on the original Net54 about 10 years ago was about how it didn't matter what a card's actual grade was, but instead it was just what PSA said it was. The holder makes the card a liquid asset. People treat PSA graded cards like stock or currency. You know in the back of your head that the system has all sorts of issues, but it's like a pyramid scheme. Everyone is happy to be in the scheme when they're making money, but you had better have some independent confidence about your collectible if the system ever crashes.

We're going on 20ish years of this system and none of these complaints are new. Heck, it is accepted fact that the most valuable card in the world is a PSA slabbed trim job. But as long as people treat the holder as a liquid asset, then it doesn't matter if your collectible isn't what you think it is. And as long as PSA is the perceived industry standard, the system will live on.

Collectors, particularly in the internet age, will always need a third party to certify to the buyer that what the seller is selling is pretty close to what he says it is. Like buying a house, you will want to have an inspection. But the inspector may miss something. Or the inspector may be a criminal. In the end, you do the best you can do with the information that is available and make as informed a choice as possible. It's pretty much like anything in life.

Barry, I think you're right, but I don't think there is more than that. I think we try to overthink things and complicate them looking for answers. The top dogs on the set registry don't care about cards, they care about being number one. They'll take a crappy 9 over a high end 8 any day because they're jockeying for position on the registry.

Take this '57 Drysdale below that ended on eBay last night. It sold for $7100 which I believe to be a record (didn't verify that though). Now, look at the back. Do you really think that deserves a 9? Do you really think the guy that purchased it even cares about the back (or even looked at it before he bought it for that matter)? No, he only cares about what the flip says.

Do you think the buyer of that card would have given even $100 for the same card if it resided in a PSA 6 holder? No, because it’s not about the card, it’s about the flip and it wouldn't help him on the registry. That PSA 9 Drysdale will help that buyer on the registry and that’s all that matters to him. You're right, as long is the label reads “8” (or whatever number they buyer is looking for), then the card is that number in his mind.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/1957-Topps-1...#ht_950wt_1042

http://i.ebayimg.com/t/1957-Topps-18...5Ig~~60_57.JPG
http://i.ebayimg.com/t/1957-Topps-18...du!~~60_57.JPG

How true and there lies the problem: the vast majority of the collectors either accept it and live with it and continue to spend a lot of money, while others deny there's even a problem.

I tried very hard to get at least 4 law enforcement agencies involved and there a lot of legal hurdles. One big problem is that people outside of the hobby just don't feel the weight of the problem since there aren't any industry standards of what constitutes card doctoring as fraud as opposed to "acceptable" cleaning or repairing such as flattening bent corners or removing wrinkles. The coin industry tried to roundup a bunch of coin doctors several years back and ran into this same type of problem.

But like anything if there is a strong commitment, law enforcement can do something about it and something needs be done since it pretty much goes unchecked and all indications are that it is widespread among a significant number of dealers and there's no doubt its a multimillion dollar industry. If several of these miscreants go down hard, I'm sure it will scare off many more.

You're right David. That Drysdale has an ugly print line on the back and really not even perfect corners. Maybe it's a nice 7. And Dan, as always, good points. Law enforcement probably has too high a hurdle, so the industry will have to take care of its own business, assuming enough people care. They very well may not.

In re: Drysdale
 

Collectors' affinity for the PSA Set Registry rankings is de facto proof that collecting is driven for many by what PSA says, not what the card really is. You are collecting PSA cards, not baseball cards.

Not entirely crazy, in my opinion. Ultimately, cash is king, and greed rules. I'm sure you could propose a few more scenarios that would be dismissed quickly and easily by the masses, but a higher degree of professional skepticism in this hobby may just be warranted as collectors continue to be taken advantage of. Sometimes, it's not so easy to piece the puzzle together, but the sharing of information by honest individuals is key to preventing future breakdowns. Thank you again for the contributions in this thread.

In instances of widespread collusion amongst willing and able parties (who may just set benchmarks and lay foundations for the hobby), collectors will always face uphill battles in their quests for personal fulfillment. Motivations for profit from people we don't know should never be underestimated.

We can't even all agree that erasing a stray pencil mark isn't taboo. Or that soaking T206 cards to remove glue is okay. There is no universal standard. About the only thing everyone seems to agree on is trimming. And yet it's okay to cut strip cards by hand. The standard is a mess.

The only thing you have to "enforce" is what PSA and SGC "guarantee" to collectors. As long as they reasonably adhered to their guarantee, there is not much to complain about. You'd have to find proof of a conspiracy or illicit motive. Very hard to do behind the veil of the grading room.

Collector: Is it trimmed?
TPG: We don't see any signs of trimming.
C: Yeah, but is it trimmed?
TPG: We don't see any signs of trimming.
C: Then it could be and you just don't see the signs?
TPG: Yes, but we don't see any signs of trimming.
C: I thought the point of TPGs was for certainty.
TPG: We guarantee that we did our best to determine alteration.

For the record, this is a fictional dialogue and not one I have had or know about, but based on all the outs and caveats within TPG literature, I think it's pretty safe to say that they guarantee nothing.

Perfectly illustrated. And herein lies the problem. This is why authorities have such a difficult time with it.

There's a lot of "ifs", "ands", and "buts", in this guarantee:

SGC Guarantees that all cards submitted shall be graded by SGC grading experts in accordance with SGC grading procedures. In the event the owner of an SGC card believes that the card has been overgraded with respect to such procedures, the owner may resubmit the card to SGC for a review of the assigned grade.

If the grade determined under such review is lower than that originally assigned to the card, SGC shall, at SGC's discretion, either replace the card or pay the difference between the current fair market value of the card at the newly established grade and the current fair market value of the grade originally assigned to such card, in the form of either cash or grading credit. Due to the volatile nature of the sportscard market and Internet auctions/sales, the selling prices in these auctions do not necessarily represent the current fair market value of any particular sportscard. SGC will determine the current fair market value of a card which is assigned a lower grade on review, based upon what SGC believes to be reliable current market information. Clerical errors with respect to the description or grade of the card(s) which would be obvious upon inspection shall not be subject to the SGC guarantee stated herein.

Leon, do you have contact information for any of the L.E. people who view this board??? If so, can you share it??? (Not their personal contact information, their work contact information.) Or, if you just have their name and who they work for, I can figure out how to get ahold of them. Thanks.

I have contact information for all of them but I don't really want to put it out in public. Anyone can call them though, they are public servants. It is widely known that the FBI in Chicago is working on hobby cases of fraud. It is also known that the Secret Service in California is working on some cases in the hobby. If anyone wants to PM me or email me I will give more specifics but I don't want to have those folks deluged with calls from our board, if they aren't somewhat qualified. But again, this is America..... I am not the key holder to anything.... :).

Ok. Thanks. I'll figure it out.

You know, I was thinking, and I know this is probably going to be unpopular, but is the so called "undetectable trim" acceptable to collectors in the hobby? I will use the analogy with to the so called "undetectable pencil erasure." If both are undetectable, did they really occur? This is both facetious and serious in a way. Does this card deserve to be in a card with a number grade? For raw collectors, does this card deserve to have a note on it that it was trimmed?

For this argument, I will present this E120 Ruth that was sold in REA a couple of years ago: Link. I don't mean to pick on Rob, because Rob is one of the best, but in a way, that's precisely why because if even the best in the hobby use these words: "The trimming is very subtle and is impossible to detect without a trained eye." In fairness to Rob, he also states that the card was rejected by PSA for trimming, and PSA will never give the card a number grade. In addition, you can infer from the description, that the consignor for this card purchased it raw before the advent of TPG's, and he was never told that this card was trimmed. Therefore, if TPG's never existed, this card would be continued to be sold raw without anyone saying that it had been trimmed in the past. So the question is that if no one can detect the trim, there is no evidence of sheet cut (like the T206 Wagner, OPC Gretzky's, etc.), similar to the undetectable pencil erasure, is it a trim? Another example I will give is this CJ Joe Jackson where no trim was detected, but it was determined that it did not meet the minimum size requirements: Link. If this card were raw and TPG's never existed, would it still be sold as not meeting Minimum Size Requirements. In the age of TPG, does it deserve to be in a numbered holder?

Back to the E120 Ruth, and you knew this was coming, but PSA did end up grading it PSA 5.5: Link. Probstein again. It was recently for sale on ebay again here: Link. You know it's the same card because of the chipping in the top right corner. I don't know if the CJ Jackson has made it to a numbered holder yet, but I wouldn't be surprised if it did, and I think it's just a matter of time. The submitter will say to the grader, I don't see a trim, do you? Nope. Don't you think it deserves to be in a numbered holder? Some grader is going to say yes. The question is what the hobby thinks.

I just spoke with Joseph M Pankiewicz. He said if David will edit the title of this thread then he will come on the board and give his side of the story. He also said he would like any wording such as "Joseph M Pankiewicz is a ***** to the hobby" taken out too. I said I would ask David to do that but I won't force anyone to do anything, generally speaking. So, .......

Done :D

I think it's time to start the popcorn?!

His side of the story...or the "truth?"

Thanks David (you can disregard the voicemail I left for you as it was only about this)

OK, I just spoke with Joe P. again. He said he will respond. I don't think it will be immediately but he will. I would guess it will be today, tonight or tomorrow....but he said he will and gave his word. So we shall see.....

+1

Good one! Made me laugh, I almost forgot we were talking about cards :)

Sincerely, Clayton

I would expect that he should need some time to get his ducks in a row. There are several things he needs to address:

Bumps
Card doctoring
Shilling

Please feel free to add to that list.

He said he had something written up but I would venture to guess he wants to really go over it before he comes on here.

Yes, we wouldn't want the Whitehouse to accidentally burn down again now would we? :rolleyes:

This ought to be very interesting. Like walking into a buzzsaw for him I fear.

Maybe he needs time to consult with a spin doctor.

The evolution of this thread has been completely surreal.

Leon,

Are you able to disclose whether this gentleman had joined the Forum previously?...I'm just anxious to know the "details", I guess.

Thanks.

RLR

Note to off-center trading
 

And others. Don't we need our full names in this thread. Leon, please ensure that gets done

If the full truth would show he was not at fault, he should come clean.

If the full truth might subject him to further ridicule, he should either lie or get a lawyer before responding.

That was my card. I bought it ungraded here, http://www.huntauctions.com/phone/im...05&lot_num=889. It was submitted and came back graded accurately in a much lower holder because of the print line and couple of touches to the corners which no longer seem touched. It was sold in the lower graded holder earlier this year. Amazing transformation.

Excellent post Peter - as usual.

The other major factor that seems to purge all rational thinking out of typically well educated and financially successful people is the Set Registry. If the competition factor wasn't enough, receiving Hall of Fame awards and being publicly recognized in the SMR and PSA's website pretty much inoculates anyone who just dropped six or seven figures building a "world class" collection from going public and saying, "This grading and registry concept is a sham and I've been had!"

Wow! :eek:

You didn't happen to scan it after it came back did you? Mind sharing the grade? It is described by Hunt Auctions as EX-EX/MT.

Sorry. I am new to the Forum, and I may have missed the request for full names. For some reason, I thought full names were used only in instances where someone had some legal responsibility for criticisms, accusations, etc. For the record, I do not normally post with my full name.

ROBERT L RUMCIK
o.c.trading

p.s. You're not getting my address.

I think I found it? Same print marks on front. Do you still have the original (better) scan. Amazing how it goes from a $154 card to a $7100 card :eek:

March 14, 2013 ebay auction - 190807734692

Yup, that's the one I found too. I would also be interested in knowing who purchased it (assuming Greg wouldn't mind divulging that information).

Sounds like a little Hendrix is in order.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iWYcMkSSqPs

Nicely done, Peter. A timeless classic jam. Very appropriate. :) Dave

s***2, he also won a PSA 7 Drysdale a month later.

Sooo good. :)

"Go ahead on mister card grader, you can't dress like me...."

If a $150 card becomes a 7K card, then graders are just minting money.

agreed Barry...I've been sayin' it for years...the TPG'ers ARE printing money!!!!

I guess Joe is reading this string. He just told me, via email, that he is still not ok with the title. He said if we want a response then it needs to be changed again. I told him that if he doesn't respond then I will most likely start one or more threads with titles he will like even less. He even gave a suggestion of

... "some people are unbelievable or outrageous."


and went onto say if we want a response then that is what he wants. So there ya go....I am just a messenger here folks.....

I feel like i'm entering..."the twilight zone!"

How about the title..."If it looks like a duck..."

Leon, please feel free to change the title as you see fit. I don't want to keep changing it just because it's not satisfactory to him. You talked to him, so maybe you have an idea what will satisfy him. I just think this is his way of stalling.

Easy solution! :D

I feel like we're dealing with a terrorist making requests before he comes out with his hostage (which, in this case, is "his side" of the story).

Some People
 

Let me grab my bag of popcorn...

Z Wheat