I like that Al!!!!

Exactly and I'm guessing that is the case in every situation and why the AH has to be in on every senario. Hey u bid this up, u end up winning it no harm no foul. Every consignor has to be in on it also otherwise he'd expect the funds when the shiller ending up winning. Despicable and I'm no fan of anyone involved whether they confessed in a courtroom or owned up here. Bottom line it harmed either the eventual buyer or the marketplace in general by communicating erroneous price information and everyone of us that has ever bought a card or collectible has been impacted. Either you have items you paid too much for after buying them for an auction house or have items you paid too much for from other sources because the true market is lower.

That logic is crazy....so they pay for it twice?

If i have an item that i paid $1000.00 for, but i want to sell it for $10,000.... and it reaches only $7,000...why the F would i pay 7k, only to hope it sells for 10k later?

If you are willing to pay 20% BP when winning your own auction I don't see a big problem with it..but its hard for me to believe that the people winning their own auctions as a hidden reserve are really paying that BP....most people think the auction house is waving it..or at best reducing it down .to lets say 5%...if you are paying a reduced buyers premium than that's bad as well because its not at even playing field with the real bidders who have to pay 20% BP

In addition, when the first guy buys the card at the discount...theres no real agreement the first guy cant bid full on the next card....the second guy could get screwed and have to pay more than what he thought....and yes there no price manipulation....

the problem with shilling as well..is you feel if you bought a card..you at least should be able to sell it the next week for a 20% loss..but if they were shill bids than maybe you overpaid by 50%...if there not really a legit underbidder...these fake bids make it seem there is legitimate interest out there....when you pay a BIN or know of a reserve..then you know you may be paying easily over 20% what the card would go for on the open market the next week and you are fine with it..

Well thats not how it works sometimes If you read What Ron Goldberg and Peter Spaeth did if I read it right ,the auction house cut a deal with him that he only had to pay the auction house fee not the cost of the item.

Dentists are masochists...they like to kill things. Especially big game in Africa.

Minnesota dentists are the worst at this...or so I've heard. :D

Audit Procedures
 

When you have the suspected shiller as the winner of the lot (no one chased them higher), you can always still look at invoicing and payment documents to see if the lot was actually paid for and by who. When you find that the suspected shiller has won lots, not paid for them themselves (and often by the consigner and NOT in the full amount), this tells you something.

In addition when you see this type of non-payment activity and the auction house continues to let the same bidder continue to bid, this is equally telling, as it suggests the non-payment for the lot in full is not an issue for the auction house. Assume what you want about the related consigner, especially if an exclusive pattern exists.

The damage does not end there, since in any number of cases, the final shilled bid (no real sale) is promoted as a genuine "price realized" and this in fact skews the perceived market valuation.

Dave Grob

Dan,
That comment might be the shot heard round the world!!:D:D

Agreed, it clouds transparency in the market.