I'm definitely in the "caring" group. I've amused myself hunting variations like this for a while now. Don't think Joe Average Pennant collector recognizes or pays a premium for a rare variation..which is good for us in the short term. We just have to get the word out and educate collectors by the time we go to sell our collections. ;)

I finished my pennant project tonight. Here they are :

https://www.flickr.com/photos/douggoodman/



I found a couple from the Brooklyn years that again I'm curious as to the thoughts of the experts who frequent this thread. They are also pictured below.

There is a 1950s 14" batter / pitcher pennant in the guide with similar artwork, but the batter's pose is different, with no flag. Also, mine is full sized.

The pins were attached to the Ebbets pennant when I got it, and I figured why take them off.

I also found a bunch of LA pennants that aren't in Egner's book, but many of them are from the 70s, when I think there are just too many to list.

Below are a few of the earlier ones. The jumping fielder I think would be from early in the LA era, because I see that as the coliseum below him.

Doug

Dodger Pennants
 

Doug -
WOW - VERY IMPRESSIVE DODGER PENNANT COLLECTION.
Jerry Sage

Doug, great collection of Dodger pennants!! I can't believe you just had these stashed away somewhere.

Rick

Doug:

You have a few toughies there for sure. Never seen that '62 phantom photo + sash pennant before. Trench made another phantom for the '62 Dodgers that lacked the sash + photo; but did include facsimile signatures of the players from that roster. That one, however, is the far more common of the two. Yours is quite rare.

As to that Brooklyn Dodgers pennant with the pinbacks on it ... are you certain its vintage? I am certain this was offered as a 1980s-era reproduction of a design style that, as far as I know, was never offered in the 1950s. I've heard other Brooklyn collectors debate this pennant's authenticity, so I'll be curious what others on this thread think....

It's odd that so few of my Giants pennants share similarities with the Dodgers pennants. Whether NY or California, they were in the same region. Here's some of the few where I saw similarities. The LH batter is only similar in the font that was used by tons of teams.

Thank you guys for the kind words about my collection, as to Domer's question, I'm not certain of anything having to do with pennants (or most other things, ha!).

When I was a kid, I always bought pennants when I went to games (they were $1 as I remember), then stapled them to my bedroom walls, with a big circle of them on the ceiling. I believe all of those are in my parents attic, so I suppose at some point I need to track them down. I have been picking up "collectible" pennants for many years when I liked the visual, and I thought I was getting a good price, then they would go on the stack.

I'll take a closer look at the one with the pins and maybe post some better pix, if I think there is anything to look at closer.

Just because I have no real knowledge of pennants, I have always figured that there must be something in the stack that wasn't what I thought it was, and have particularly been "concerned" that one of the 1963 WS pennants was bad. The one with the more narrow placement of the tassels, has always piqued my spidey senses. It's a very soft felt, the only "stiff" feel to any of it is where it's printed, it almost feels like patches (but it is printed). Neither has anything on the back.

Doug


PS :
Rob - I like that one with the Golden Gate bridge and the batter. I feel like I remember that one from growing up going to (contrary to my collection) Candlestick as a kid. So what if I'm a NorCal Dodger fan, what's wrong with that?

Doug, that is a fantastic Dodgers Pennant Collection! :eek:

Some incredibly rare ones there... some of which may not surface again in the next decade. It would take forever to amass a collection like that today.

Domer was right however, about the one with the Pinbacks in it. The Pins are legit, but that particular pennant is indeed a 1980s reproduction. If you look closely, you'll see the felt is different, and there are probably a few of them on eBay as we speak. Seems like half of the eBay Sellers properly describe them as Repros, and half just let it slide.

But all the others are 100% original and magnificent. Thanks for sharing those incredible treasures with us!

Good senses... The narrow tassels version is the reproduction. Mitchell & Ness did this with the majority of their offerings, and it is the first tip-off that the pennant isn't vintage.

Some original pennants had the two sets of tassels placed close together like that, but they were from the 1940s and 50s (and typically featured the thinner "Spaghetti Tassels"). That phenomenon disappeared later in the '50s, and was beyond extinct by 1963 (the supposed year of that pennant).

Thank you very much for the info.

The knowledge on the board never fails to astound me.

I appreciate all the help from you guys.

Doug

Another thing to look for as far as determining repro vs legit ... the thread used to sew the spine. By the 80s they were using a plastic-like thread. Hard to describe but when you compare to vintage pennants it jumps out at you.

Here are other repros, maybe from the same lot, often they are passed on as “vintage” on eBay

Thank you.

My main way of avoiding repros, which I have to say after the comments on this thread about my collection have shown that I have done a pretty good job of, is in regards to purchasing habits. I made the decision long ago to buy mostly from well know and / or reputable sellers. If anything gives me pause, I just avoid it. "Auction fever" is not my style.

I have learned in my quest for baseball magazine supplements that there is always another one lurking in the future. Although that Newcombe portrait version m114 that I missed will keep bugging me until that legendary "another one" finally makes an appearance. Hahaha.

Doug,
You have a really great pennant collection. I’m a big fan. You have some real tough ones in that group. I like the fact that you have so many examples. I have a number of similar Yankees ones that match some of yours. Great group.

The New York Giants isn’t even a good looking pennant. :p

I agree with everyone here, Doug. Nice thorough Dodgers collection.

Based on some of your other posts, I was hoping to hear that you picked these up traveling around the country for music related events.

This one’s a bit late but I’m watching a documentary on the history of the STL Browns and snapped this pic

Regarding pennant colors ... here’s one that looks spray painted instead of screened.

I would guess airbrushed. Nice pennant!

love it !!!

Sadly, I'm not sure that I have ever picked one up on the road, and I have been to hundreds of baseball card stores (back when they still existed) and hundreds of second hand stores / antique malls (one of my bosses, the one who likes Disneyland, loves stopping at them on our drives).

But, never having found one doesn't stop me from always looking.

Doug

Tough to envision any that you don't already have, haha.

I did find this beauty... Any interest, just shoot me an email or PM.

Thanks!

Already got it Mark, also the one below it ... but those are two of my favorites! Thanks anyway!

Mark and Greg need to do flickr pages, ala Doug. What else are you doing, anyway? ;)

I'd love to hear Mark's, Greg's, Jason's, Kyle's, etc. thoughts on why Giants and Dodgers pennants are not all that similar, given the teams' geographical proximity. :confused:

I’m working on a gallery! Boy would I love to see what Mark has in those tubs ....

Not sure. But are they less similar than, say, Phillies and Yankees?

If we focus on (what I think is) Trench ... pre-1958 both had stadium pennants, one pictured below. I will say a full size Polo Grounds pennant is hard to come by - harder than Ebbets. The Giants version of the Emmet Kelly pennant just had a baseball graphic.

After the move, Trench uses the bum in the Coliseum ... one of my very favorites is the “New Home” pennant. The Mullin Giant is moved to the GG Bridge. Not Seals Stadium or Candlestick. Scroll pennants exist for the Dodgers but I think non-existent for the Giants. The Giants have a pennant with scattered names like the ‘63 Yankees. The one stadium pennant I’ve seen (from your collection) with the batter does look a little different from others, as if it was a different maker. Kind of like how the Mets Shea pennants look different. Nice - but different.

As for the other makers ... no idea. I think it’s much weirder that of all teams, only two do not have a stadium pennant. Phillies (why???) and Senators. Giants and Mets do, may or may not be same maker. I think every other team has ‘em.

How about the team picture pennants? Some teams have them with that extra banner that fits in slots. Others don’t. Some teams have no team pic pennant. Have never seen a Giants, Braves, Cubs or Red Sox. (Not like the common style that is.) Same with Mets, except for ‘69 and I think ‘63 that had a picture stapled on.

I think whenever we hold our first “Hey, pennant guys” convention we need as a keynote speaker someone who worked for Trench so he could explain all these mysteries ...

EDIT: Now I see a Giants scroll pennant ... not a traditional scroll though

Rob - I think you are missing something that all Californians know, but I really learned when I moved from NorCal to SoCal over 25 years ago : they are COMPLETELY different places.

Not only are they rivals, but they have different mindsets about just about everything. A simplistic view would be : the north has a "hippy" mindset, but mindset of "the man" took over in the south. With small pockets of exception, of course (like Topanga down here).

When they moved out here, they were SO far away from the other teams, that I assume (but don't actually know) that the standard pennant companies that shared images / styles between teams didn't bother, and instead local companies got the gigs. Do I get half credit for that thought?

Flickr does all the work, I just upload them...

I know I’m not the guy to answer that question. I’m strictly on to the beauty aka: coolness of pennants. Makers and production are not my thing. I just like buying and selling them. Seems like there’s always been more production info from the NY and Chicago areas and less info from the California area. I did buy some old stock out of Northern CA years ago, but those included those 1958 Giants variations mentioned in the past. That purchase included pennants going from the mid 40’s AAFC all the way to the 70’s. Never got any name of the makers

1938 Yankees World Series
 

Although this isn't a press photo, I thought I would throw it out there to date this pennant. This was being sold in one lot all purchased at the same time. Just for info.

I'll take a stab at this ... when I think about the late 1950s, early 60s, Trench pretty much dominated the MLB pennant market. That was somewhat true too in the 1940s and early 50s; but, there were still a handful of smaller pennant makers producing limited runs for certain teams within their local market/region. Consequently, there's way more variation in Brooklyn pennants than Los Angeles ones, and I assume that to be true for the NY/SF Giants, too.

Looking strictly at early LA vs. early SF pennants produced by Trench, I'm not sure I've noticed too many differences. Nearly all of the Dodger pennants from that era are stadium pennants, featuring either the Coliseum or Dodger Stadium. Sure, some have a photo incorporated in them; some also have a sash. But Trench basically offered the same for the Giants ... with some discrepancies....

(1) The '62 NL champions photo pennant for the Giants doesn't feature a sash like the '62 (phantom) one Trench made for the Dodgers; or the '63 NL/world champions pennant Trench made the following year. That's probably because Trench anticipated the Dodgers winning the pennant that year; and there wasn't sufficient time to make a Giant version using this style, which would take extra time to produce. (2) Trench also created a logo of sorts just for Giant pennants that they didn't do for the Dodgers: it featured a batter in front of the Golden Gate Bridge, occasionally positioned before a baseball backdrop. Los Angeles doesn't have a landmark like the bridge, so it makes sense that Dodger pennants instead focused on the two arguably more venerable ballparks they occupied. (3) The same Trench artist responsible for the majority of their stadium pennants never produced a stadium pennant for Seals Stadium--not like the one that was produced for the Coliseum and Dodger Stadium. It's a one-color rendering with an empty stadium. It's like nothing Trench made. (Perhaps they borrowed it from a Seals program?)

Honestly, I don't think these discrepancies had anything to do with geography; rather, the concessionaire had more to do with these differences than anything. I'm sure Trench came to them, offered some samples of what they could produce, and each concessionaire made their selections. The Dodgers (Danny Goodman) and Giants (Harry M. Stevens, Inc.) each used different concessionaires during this era, so that to me explains why their merch looked different.

My two cents....

Great info, Kyle...

And I believe that last sentence about Goodman and Stevens (using different concessionaires) is probably the best explanation for the differences.

On a separate note...

I finally listed some nice pennants on the Memorabilia B/S/T. A few have already sold, but many nice ones are still available. Below are a few examples... feel free to check them out, and thanks for looking!

Before anybody asks, I'm not related (that I know of).

And Mark , that 1951 Tigers pennant is cool.

Doug

Nuthin’ but high quality from perezfan! :D

No question, Mark is The Godfather of pennants ...

As for creating a pennant gallery ... I got the Flickr app but it seems like Google Photos might be better. I think I’ll do one team at a time ... is there an audience if I occasionally post links? I’m so bored!!!! This will keep me busy.

sign me up!

Count me in!

Okay I’ll start out with Brooklyn Dodgers pennants .... there are some duplicates and triplicates, mainly because I need my head examined. But each pic is a distinct pennant, look close to observe differences in condition, etc. This doesn’t include WS pennants that mention two teams. Hopefully this works, Google Photos is very easy to use!

This was something I’ve been meaning to do for awhile, since at some point I gotta sell these darn things. One day I might just unload ‘em and just keep and display Phillies and A’s.

I’ll add that most (not all) of the pennants have the tassels tucked behind, one or two might have them missing.

https://photos.app.goo.gl/nbM6Jp6wGDqPs6wDA

Always looking for more!

Nice, Greg. Looking forward to seeing more! (Let's see the Giants soon)

Nice!

Looking at your pictures makes me think about how much easier my life would be (in regards to pictures) if I didn't use a blackberry. The pictures suck, that's why I had to do multiple scan all my pennants and then pieced the scans together. Oh well.

I'm not a fan of the 3/4 size pennants but this one had good color; says "New York" rather than the more common "N.Y." and the price was right.

Questions: what was the heyday of 3/4 pennants? 30s-40s? Was there ever a time when the 3/4 was the most prevalent size? Same questions for oversized...heyday? were they ever the most common size?

Wow! :eek:

Wow, just phenomenal, Greg...

What a Brooklyn Dodgers Collection... it's got to be among the best in the world! How on earth do you decide which ones make it on to the wall? That choice would drive me nuts.... so many beauties and color variations. :eek:

Great photography as well.... looks like a professional gallery. Can't wait to see some other teams!

Thanks everyone!

I think in the 30s, yes. I just saw a clip on Twitter, from Flagstaff Films ( a great follow), they post clips of old home movies at the ballpark. Today they put up a clip from the ‘36 series and briefly caught a glimpse of a vendor walking the aisles with pennants of this style.

That's a beauty, Rob... I looked at it long and hard on eBay, and almost pulled the trigger. I'd have bought it at first sight a few years back, when my available funds were more conducive to collecting. You got a good buy, as it's a rare variation with beautiful colors and superb condition.

I'll take a stab at your questions regarding size (which does matter, haha). Here is how I see it after many years of doing this nonsense...

Teens- Predominantly oversized pennants, ranging in size from 32" to 36" in length. Full size and 3/4 size did exist back then, but in very limited quantities.

1920s- Perhaps the only era in which 3/4 size was the norm. It is pretty rare to find standard full-sized pennants from this decade, and the oversized pennants seemed to vanish in the late teens.

1930s- Let's call it full-size, but in this decade, a full sized pennant was typically slightly smaller than it is today. Full sized 1930s pennants were significantly larger than 3/4 pennants, but a bit smaller than what we later see from Trench, AdFlag, etc. 3/4 size pennants were readily available, but I'd estimate it skews about 65/35% in favor of full size in the 1930s.

1940s- Most full size pennants of the 1940s are still slightly smaller than what's seen today. They continued to become a bit more prevalent in the 1940s... perhaps by now, it's an 75/25 split between Full and 3/4 size.

1950s- Full size pennants finally reach the true large size we think of today. 3/4 size pennants remain popular as well... especially in the New York Market. The Yankees, Dodgers and Giants in particular all produced a ton of 3/4 size pennants during this era. Rob's pennant above is just one of many examples. I'd guess the split was about 70/30 in favor of full-size in the 50s.

1960s- Full size becomes by far the predominant size of the 1960s. 3/4 size is still somewhat popular into the early 60s, but becomes all but extinct by the end of the decade.

1970s - This is when it's game over for me. Everything is now full sized, but as mass production takes over, the felt becomes stiff as a board, and creativity and artistry are all but gone. Outside of a few interesting All Star Game and WS Pennants early in the decade, there is not much interesting in the way of graphics. The team logos adopt a simplified and "corporate" look, and the magic finally disappears.

So it's a sad ending, but that's what makes the hunting and collecting so much fun. If it was easy and if there was no challenge, it would all be rather pointless. Eager to hear what others think, as I could be way off base! :o

Greg, thanks for posting these, and thanks especially for starting with Dem Bums. Obviously that is a collection amassed over a long time with a curator's eye. I've been looking for a nice 1955 Scroll NL Champs with the bum for a while, and since you already have 3, is it safe to assume you won't be bidding against me if one pops up in a auction? Or is 4 a possibility?

Rick

Thanks for the great rundown on pennant sizing, Mark! Just the kind of info I was looking for.h

Rick ... haha ... no I think I’m done with the ‘55 scroll and should put one or two of mine up for auction one of these days. I am looking for one that lists them as “World and NL Champs” though .... it’s just a different variation.

Thanks for your comments!

Both Greg and Doug have a pennant with a view of multi-colored stands from the pitcher’s mound and “1956” in a ball. I’ve never seen anything similar. Is this a Brooklyn only design?

The only one similar (and by the same maker) is a Cleveland Indians Champs pennant. I'll try to find images.... please stay tuned.

Here they are. No other teams used this image, that I am aware of...

These ‘54-56 pennants share a more general style, you can tell by the font and also the texture of the screen print. It tends to be thick with very fine grooves in it. Look close and you’ll see what I mean. This Phillies pennant is clearly from the same maker, as in the “Cinderella Boys” Giants pennant.

Next up are the NY Giants. This may disappoint, in both quantity and quality it falls short of my assortment of Brooklyn pennants. I really don’t have much as far as SFG, except for the common GG bridge versions.

There is a neat little twist on one of my ‘54 pennants though ...

https://photos.app.goo.gl/SJXTbnCjiEj3U1637

Fantastic, Greg!!

Especially the 3D Collegiate Pennant and the Willard Mullin Giant inside the Polo Grounds! Nicest condition example of that tough one I've seen!

You've stumped me on the '54 pennant... What's the twist??

The red one ... three tassels at the bottom!

I have all of those! :D

Except the 3D. :(

I lucked out on that Giants 3D, in the earlier days of eBay my automatic follow up question to a seller was, “let me know if you have any others to sell” ... and for one guy this was among them. I got an insanely good deal. Back then I really was sure what I had either, didn’t fully know what was rare and what wasn’t. ...... my collection/addiction began late 90s after buying some repros at the Mitchell and Ness 50% off Super Bowl sale. (Their old store was only about 15 miles from me.) In the store they had some vintage Phillies pennants on display, and I thought they looked better ....

Nice Giants pennants, Greg. Lots to like in there. I may look more to the NY era in the future, and it's good to know that Rob already has most these (less competition... although I seem to remember that Rob's Cinderella pennant was on the thin side).

49ers Pennant for sale
 

$350 ppd.
PayPal michaelmays24@comcast.net

49ers
 

A recent arrival from ebay. I like that sellers can now send you offers when you have something on your watch list. I had been watching this one for a month or so and then the seller made a nice offer that I could not pass up, even with a bit of staining at the tip. I think I have been an underbidder on this pennant two or three times, so it is nice to get it.

Marc, great looking pennant. IMO football pennants trail baseball as far as overall aesthetics is concerned ... except that the Niners have really cool ones. My favorite football pennant is the goldpanner. Hard to find without faded colors in the graphics.

Actually my favorite used to be my NY Bulldogs pennant, which is now about as valuable as Venezuelan currency ... I think you can find these along the side of the road now!

Looks like I picked a bad time to start collecting Venezuelan currency...

This one is still pretty tough...

Got this today. One of those cloth pennants Greg likes. Some clown has been asking $200 forever. Got this delivered for $73. I also have the green and the white examples. They also did a blue. Probably 1960's, due to the un-enclosed Candlestick. A pretty unique pennant...

WHOA no that’s a good one ... I was talking about the blue one that just popped up in a lot of about 10 ... yours is super rare!

Really cool! Must be a local company, and very rare. Really great condition, too...

Added the Browns today ...

https://photos.app.goo.gl/rAdQijJm5AShw87c8

I’m always buying Browns pennants ....

When I complete this project, I’ll create albums by type/style/company. At least with whatever I have.

REALLY love all the colors in that collection, Greg! You'd think almost all would be just Brown. But there are so many colorful rarities there. Especially the Blue version of the Pixies on the Infield, the Purple version of the Pointy Nosed Guy, and the jet black 1944 Champs Pennant. Condition looks amazing as well!

Mark’s favorites are my favorites, as well!

I’m a little ashamed to admit I don’t think I “know” even one name on the 1944 pennant. :o

I find it odd that they made team pennants in so many different colors, including those that had nothing to do with the team. Variability in general seems to be a recent development, whether we consider baseball cards or ice cream flavors. But for some reason the Brooklyn Emmet Kelly pennant comes in 37 different colors .... not to mention the number of ‘54 Indians pennants!

Those are all great Browns pennants, Greg. I like the funkiness of the mascot.

Makes me think about the book "Even the Browns," about the Browns making the World Series during the war.

Here is the blue version of the Giants pennant Rob posted earlier. I also have the white. The blue is cloth, but the white feels like it is on some kind of thin foam material. Very strange.

Really cool, Marc and Rob...

Looks like perhaps the same maker that did the Giants' "Cable Car" Pennant... which I believe is only available with the orange cloth material. Those have a great early '60s charm to them. Really love both the orange and blue versions.

Rob, that green New York Bulldogs pennant is SICK! :cool:

Don’t think this and the cable car are the same maker. I think this pennant might be some maker’s only offering.

Interesting.... The Cable Car pennant has odd graphics. They were not "screened/painted on" in the same manner as all other pennants of the era. It looked like maybe those 3/4 examples posted above utilized the same unorthodox application.

Pretty tough to tell from a flat computer screen, but if you have both in-hand, you'd definitely know best... not that you wouldn't anyway! :o

Is this the one you're talking about?

Yes... check out (and feel) the graphics. A different process was used to apply them. It is not the traditional paint/silk-screening. I cannot put my finger on what it is, and sold my only example a few years back (so I'm going from memory, which is dwindling).

Have you ever seen weird graphics like that on any other vintage early-mid 60s pennant?

Whatchu talkin' about, Willis? :p

I checked the graphics. The "cable car" definitely feels screened, although the "San Francisco" is almost like it's dyed into the felt.

I attribute the "cable car" and these other two to the same maker, due to the font on "San Francisco."