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Posted By: <b>John K</b><p> As I remember, a recent figure on wealth distribution in the USA had the top 1% of the population in possession of 50% of the wealth in the country. I have also heard many times conversations about what the top 1/10 of one percent have, but I don't recall the figures here. However, there is no doubt that under Bush/Cheney money is being pushed to the top. And it has been reported that McCain will continue this trend, even worse as I understand. Look at the economy: trickle down and deregulation do not work. The middle class is disappearing.

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Posted By: <b>David Atkatz</b><p>"And Barry, I'm not 'fornuate' to earn a lot of money. I was in court one day last week at 1 am. I hardly felt fortunate then."<br /><br />Jeff, <i>of course</i> you're fortunate to make a lot of money.<br /><br />I happen to be a physics professor--a theoretical physicist.<br /><br />I spent six years in graduate school to earn my PhD. (As opposed to three years in law school.)<br /><br />And I wasn't given that degree because I passed my exams--I had to do something completely original. Discover something new.<br /><br />My first postdoctoral position paid $17k/annum. (Quite a bit less, I'll wager, than a starting lawyer made at a good firm in 1979.)<br /><br />I've been in my office working well past 1:00 AM on countless occasions. <br /><br />And, although I'm at least as educated as you, and work as hard as you, I'll bet I don't earn a third of what you do.<br /><br />Why?<br /><br />Because what I do is not valued by this society.<br /><br />It doesn't make anyone any money.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>David, I'm not going to quibble about relative values to society because eventually we'll start discussing the worth of ARod to society relative to his paycheck and we'll both get sick. All I will tell you is that I started working in 1990 at 25K per year after turning down countless jobs for nearly 4x as much simply because I wanted to learn more and felt that the much lower paying job would be a better environment for that. And now I have my own firm, pay monthly health insurance for 6 people and if the phone does not ring I do not earn any income. My point is that no one gives me a paycheck and I have no guarantees that the phone will ring next month. I took a chance -- with no safety net below me -- and succeeded. Often in life the biggest risks come with the biggest rewards. <br /><br />And while I'm sure you work very hard, let me know the next time you're standing in front of a jury defending someone in a death penalty case where if you lose your client may lose his life. I suspect your pressures don't equal mine.<br /><br /><br /><br /> <br /> <br />

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Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>What Al said.<br />JimB

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Posted By: <b>Jim VB</b><p>David, <br /><br />I don't see that as "fortunate." I agree with your assessment as to why those different careers compensate at different levels, but that's not the result of fortune. <br /><br />Both you and Jeff had decisions to make at various times in your life. How hard to study, what kinds of grades to get, what schools to attend, what majors to pursue, and how to apply that knowledge to a career. <br /><br />I assume that you made your choices, knowing how society valued and compensated educators. So did Jeff. So did most of the rest of us. To use hindsight and call those decisions "fortunate" is revisionist hindsight. <br /><br />Unless there was some lottery deciding upon high school grades, college choices, college grades, and careers, it's free choice, not "fortune."<br /><br />However, Jeff gets the same response when he says $250,000 doesn't go as far in NYC as it does in other places. If he doesn't like NYC economics, he can move to Arizona and practice there. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>David Atkatz</b><p>Please, Jeff.<br /><br />You made my point for me. The $100k starting jobs that you turned down <i>do not exist</i> for many, many hard working, highly educated professionals.<br /><br />And I wouldn't exactly equate a death sentence defense with what, say, a surgeon does. Or a fireman, for that matter.<br /><br />High pressure? Try air traffic control.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>"And I wouldn't exactly equate a death sentence defense with what, say, a surgeon does. Or a fireman, for that matter." <br /><br />I'm sure you wouldn't, David. And how many death penalty cases have you tried in that ivory tower of yours?

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Posted By: <b>David Atkatz</b><p>I disagree, Jim. My point was that Jim is <i>fortunate</i> that what he does is valued.<br /><br />He doesn't make a lot of money because he works hard (loads of people working two full-time low paying jobs work much harder), or because he's highly educated (see post above), or because he took risks (try working in a meatpacking plant--now that's taking risks.)

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>David, with all respect you are really out of touch with reality. Do you have any idea how many attorneys there are in this country that struggle to make ends meet? And do you know how many attorneys take a paycheck because they are unwilling to take a risk and go it alone? Actually hard work is a great indicator of success in law. <br /><br />As for meatpacking, my dad was one; I suspect if you asked him he'd tell you that my job is way harder than his ever was. Perhaps not as hard as an academic who doesn't have to pay his staff but still pretty hard.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>David Atkatz</b><p>Come off it, Jim. <br /><br />Let's take a poll among a random sample of reasonably educated people. Let's ask them which professionals are "life savers."<br /><br />Here are two professions that will <i>not</i> appear as answers:<br /><br />Theoretical physicists, and criminal defense attorneys

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Posted By: <b>Jim VB</b><p>They didn't start applying value to what Jeff does recently. That value and compensation has been there long before he went to 1st Grade. <br /><br />He chose a career that compensates well. I'm sure your chosen profession has other rewards.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>David, you're really angry. Seriously. Don't blame me for your choices in life which have now left you so bitter.<br /><br />And PS--I simply described my career as being much more high-pressure than yours -- hence perhaps one reason why I'm compensated better.

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Posted By: <b>David Atkatz</b><p>Come off it, Jim. <br /><br />Let's take a survey among a random sample of reasonably educated people. Let's ask them which professionals are "life savers."<br /><br />Here are two professions that will <i>not</i> appear as answers:<br /><br />Theoretical physicists, and criminal defense attorneys

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Posted By: <b>David Atkatz</b><p>I'm not bitter at all, Jeff. Or angry.<br /><br />I chose to do what I do. <br /><br />I became what I always wanted to be--a theoretical physicist.<br /><br />I'm fortunate that I had the abilities--and the opportunities to do so.<br /><br />I <i>am</i> sad, though, that the only thing society values is money,<br /><br />But, if it comes to that, I guess I don't have much patience for people who think they <i>deserve</i> all the money they make, because they're "under pressure"<br /><br />Like I said, try air traffic control.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Jim VB</b><p>I have a nephew who spent 5 years undergrad, 3 years in law school, 2 years clerking for a Federal Judge in DC, while getting his MBA at Georgetown. <br /><br />He is currently an FBI agent and runs the risk of getting shot at, on any given day. <br /><br />He is very happy in his chosen career. Should I tell him he needs to be pissed because some of his classmates make more?

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>David, I don't deserve anything -- I made my breaks and succeeded at a high level. No one gave me anything. How about this: I'll try air traffic control if you move to Cuba?

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Posted By: <b>Jim VB</b><p>David, <br /><br />You're mixing up your responses to me and Jeff. It must be some kind of time/space continuum thing. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />I will now shut up and stay out of this discussion.

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Posted By: <b>jdrum</b><p>Why is it when someone makes a choice, works hard, takes risks and succeeds it is because they are fortunate. Maybe it is because they are fortunate to live somewhere where that is possible. My guess is that most reasonably educated people (whatever that is) would consider a good/great defense attorney a "life saver" should they ever need one.

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Posted By: <b>David Atkatz</b><p>"They didn't start applying value to what Jeff does recently. That value and compensation has been there long before he went to 1st Grade.<br /><br />He chose a career that compensates well. I'm sure your chosen profession has other rewards."<br /><br />Yes it does, Jim.<br /><br />But that's not the point.<br /><br />My point was simply this:<br /><br />Jeff <i>is</i> fortunate to be earning a lot of money.<br /><br />As he himself pointed out, many lawyers (and lots of others, who work just as hard, too) are not.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>David Atkatz</b><p>"Why is it when someone makes a choice, works hard, takes risks and succeeds it is because they are fortunate. Maybe it is because they are fortunate to live somewhere where that is possible."<br /><br />OK. He's still fortunate.<br /><br />"My guess is that most reasonably educated people (whatever that is) would consider a good/great defense attorney a "life saver" should they ever need one."<br /><br />Or a plumber.

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Posted By: <b>David Atkatz</b><p>"How about this: I'll try air traffic control if you move to Cuba?"<br /><br />Can't you be disbarred for trying to coerce me into doing something illegal? <br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Brian Weisner</b><p>Hi Guys,<br /> Clearly, "the choices we make dictate the lives we lead"... And most people can live with that. I'm pretty sure I know which side of the fence you guys are on politically, but I still don't know what some of you collect....<br /><br />Jeff: Chase and Cobb???<br />Jim VB: Tough Types???<br />David:??? <br /><br /><br />PS As a Tar Heel fan I'm inclined to dislike Jeff (Dook Grad), but as we have never clashed on any items...<br /><br /><br /> Be well to all Vintage card collectors. Brian <br />

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Posted By: <b>David Atkatz</b><p>"I have a nephew who spent 5 years undergrad, 3 years in law school, 2 years clerking for a Federal Judge in DC, while getting his MBA at Georgetown.<br /><br />He is currently an FBI agent and runs the risk of getting shot at, on any given day.<br /><br />He is very happy in his chosen career. Should I tell him he needs to be pissed because some of his classmates make more?"<br /><br /><br /><br />Not at all, Jim. (Got it right, that time.)<br /><br />Again, not the point.<br /><br />The point is that his higher-paid classmates are not automatically entitled to their higher pay simply because they work harder, or took chances, or created their own breaks.<br /><br />They are fortunate that society values what they do <i>more</i> than it values what your highly educated, hard-working, and <i>real</i> risk taking nephew does.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>jdrum</b><p>I'm much rather take my chances with a mediocre plumber. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>David Atkatz</b><p>Hey Jeff. Where in the city do you live? I'm on the UWS. (Big surprise, right?)<br /><br />Let's get together over a few beers some night, before I leave for Cuba.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>David, I'm on the UES (another big shock). Let's do it, I insist you get the proper farewell before jetting off to meet your brothers and sisters in the struggle. But please let's have those drinks before November 4...I don't want to run into you anytime after.

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Posted By: <b>boxingcardman</b><p>Until they need one. <br /><br />Don't kid yourself about the law. Practicing law is a competitive, cutthroat business and many lawyers have the education and intelligence to do something else [many of them could, for example, have gone to work on Wall Street <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14> ]; many do. Not all lawyers make mega-bucks but money isn't the sole measure of skill in a lawyer. It also has a lot to do with what field you go into and how you choose to structure your life. Not everyone is cut out to be an entrepreneur; some people just want to go to work, get paid and go home and not worry about how to keep the lights on. There are very few lawyers who could do what Jeff does; he is highly paid because he is highly skilled, but as I am sure he will tell you, he runs into highly skilled lawyers who work for the state, for nonprofits, etc. And money only measures what someone can convince a client to pay for your services. I have a cousin in her third year out of law school with a top firm who makes more money than most sole practitioners and has yet to see the inside of a courtroom. <br><br>Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

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Posted By: <b>David Atkatz</b><p>Agreed!<br /><br />Those that make a lot of money, in whatever profession, are <i>fortunate</i> to do so.<br /><br />It is not simply a deserved reward for skill, or intelligence, or education, or hard work, or...<br /><br />They are fortunate, too.

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Posted By: <b>Jim VB</b><p>&lt;&lt;Let's get together over a few beers some night&gt;&gt;<br /><br /><br />Damn! No wonder you guys in NYC can't get by on $250,000 a year. It's steaks and drinks all the time. Move to "the heartland." Eat at home. Have a beer by the pool.

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Posted By: <b>Brian Weisner</b><p><br /> Hi Jim,<br /> You are always welcome for several beers and steaks here in NC... Hell, even Jeff can comeback, as long as he doesn't bring Coach K.<br /><br /> Be well Brian<br /><br />PS I must admit I miss Steak dinners in Chicago....

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Posted By: <b>Joe D.</b><p>Two peanuts walk into a bar.<br /><br />One was <i>a salted</i>.

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Posted By: <b>David Atkatz</b><p>Two peanuts were walking down the strasse.<br /><br />One was a salted.<br /><br />Peanut.

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Posted By: <b>Brian Weisner</b><p><br /> Joe....<br /> I told you not to drink by yourself....<br /> Talk to you SOON Be well Brian

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Posted By: <b>judson hamlin</b><p>A neutron walks into a bar- asks the bartender "how much for a beer"?<br />bartender says, "for you, no charge".<br /><br />A proton walks into a bar, says "hey, bartender, I left my wallet in here last night - have you seen it"? Bartender asks, "You sure"?<br />Proton says, "I'm positive"<br /><br />An electron walks into a bar, goes to the far end, orders a beer and starts to cry. bartender walks over with his beer, looks at him and asks, "Why so negative"?<br /><br /><br />Here all week; try the veal...

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Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>Teddy Roosevelt?<br /><br /><br /><img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br /><br />Steve

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Posted By: <b>Joe Brennan</b><p>I don't talk politics or religion, but I cannot help myself in this one instance. 401 million people in America and these are the best 4 people we could find to run the country? No matter who wins, no body wins. <br><br>In Rememberance of James W. Brennan Sr. 1924-1982. Dad, thanks for everything you did for me.

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Posted By: <b>Tim</b><p>"401 million people in America and these are the best 4 people we could find to run the country?"<br /><br />Unfortunately the demands of the job and what one has to go through to get it keep a lot of great people from running.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff S.</b><p>301 million is the current pop - I checked the pop reports.<br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Steve Murray</b><p>According to the U.S. Bureau of the Census, the resident population of the United States, projected to 09/17/08 at 02:36 GMT (EST+5) is<br />305,173,839<br />

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Posted By: <b>Joe Brennan</b><p>100 million people moved to Cuba when they found out Obama or McCain would become are next president.<br /><br />Actually it was a typo as the 4 is right next to the 3 on the keyboard. <br /><br />In Rememberance of James W. Brennan Sr. 1924-1982. Dad, thanks for everything you did for me.

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Posted By: <b>Andrew</b><p>This thread introduced me to some new perspectives. That is, as a moderate, I'm not hardwired to advocate or slam based on the "R" or "D" by a candidate's name. Among other decision criteria, the following stand out for me:<br /><br />1. Higher earners should pay more tax. On the one hand based on fairness, why? Should a penalty be imposed on those (or their family) who GENERALLY earned or worked for it? Rather than focusing on how to save a penny (like most living paycheck to paycheck), maybe use that energy on how to make a dollar. I just don't get why someone is obligated to pay more just because they have the means to do so.<br /><br />On the other hand, having a poverty mass (as the middle class shrinks) doesn't do a society any good. Basically, lift up the poor or by shear number, or they will pull you down.<br /><br />2. Those that fear intelligence usually because they have little and can't come to grips with it. All this McCain is a regular guy, someone to have a beer with - unlike Obama who's "elitist" - is simply low self esteem rearing it's head. Many have other reasons for not liking Obama, but don't hate the guy for sinply being smart(er). There's something in the American fabric that doesn't like experts or perceived intellectual inequality. <br /><br />Lastly, of all the posts in this thread, this was one of my favs:<br />_______<br />No matter how you vote it speaks volumes that you have the following candidates to choose from:<br /><br />1. an african america raised by a single mother<br />2. a man who lost EVERYTHING before he even started his first term in the Senate (my opinon of everything would be my kid(s) and wife)<br />3. a man who spent five tortuous years as a POW<br />4. a woman who came from nowhere to become a mayor, then governor and now potential VP.<br /><br />Why is race used as a describer in #1, but not #2, #3 and #4?<br /><br />Fun stuff, a little uncivil at times, but important nevertheless.<br><br>"Take your life in your own hands and what happens? A terrible thing: no one to blame." -- Erica Jong

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Posted By: <b>John K</b><p> Woke up to hear McCain wants to bring honesty to Wall Street. . . he should start with his campaign. How do I love thee? Let me count the lies.

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Posted By: <b>paulstratton</b><p> I wish some of these Wall St. crooks would just do the honorable thing and leap to their deaths. It's the least they can do considering the position they are putting us all in.

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Posted By: <b>Mark Holt</b><p>I absolutely cannot believe I scrolled through this whole thread.

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Posted By: <b>Richard Simon</b><p>Sarah Palin recently said in a speech that we need more regulatory agencies to handle these problems then two minutes later she totally contradicted herself and called for less regulation.<br />If she is qualified for VP than Leon is too!! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>.<br />--<br><br>I refuse to engage in a battle of wits with an unarmed opponent.<br />Unknown author <br />--<br />We made a promise. We swore we'd always remember.<br />No retreat baby, no surrender.<br />The Boss

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>How did I get into this mix? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> ...... I can barely handle running this darn board....<br /><br />As for Palin.....she is still the only candidate I wouldn't mind seeing naked....but hey, it's America....

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Leon- if Sarah Palin campaigned topless, I would actually switch my party allegiance.

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Posted By: <b>Peter Thomas</b><p>Barry, you would not need to switch parties, just be more bipartisan in attending events.