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Posted By: <b>joe brennan</b><p>I just want the thread to continue.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1165978207.JPG"> <br /><br />before<br /><br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1165978223.JPG"> <br /><br />and after. <br /><br />Hi, My name is Joe, and I'm a soaker.<br /><br />Hi Joe<br><br>People said it was a million dollar wound. But the government must keep that money, cause I ain't never seen a penny of it.

About soaking cards
 

Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>I think the last post by Joe Brennan of his EL Principe De Gales illustrates exactly what makes me cringe about soaking.<br />Taking a good look at the card, up the left edge and around the top left corner, and across on the top right corner, the card looks totally different.<br />The top left edge/corner is SO much straighter and without the obvious nicks and damage of the pre - soaked version....and similarly on the right top corner - you wouldn't think it was the same corner if Joe wasn't saying it was so (go on Joe, say it aint.....), funnily enough though it looks more lifted post soaking (surprise surprise that soaking paper in water that is made of layers would cause lifting) and with a crease across it you don't see in the first scan. Top edge also looks different.<br />To me, that is not just removing some back paper and glue, that is significantly altering the cards presentation and physical state, including corners, edges, and surface.<br /><br />JMO.<br /><br /><br />Daniel

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Posted By: <b>Peter_Spaeth</b><p>This is the thread that doesn't end<br />And it goes on and on my friend<br />Some people started posting here not knowing what it was<br />And they'll continue posting here forever just because<br /><br />This is the thread that doesn't end.....<br /><br />EDITED TO MAKE LYRICS MORE ACCURATE

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Posted By: <b>joe brennan</b><p>To answer the questions about the card that had paper removed. The difference you are seeing in the corners or edges are because the build up of paper left gaps when I scanned the card. In other words, the corners were farther from the surface of the scanner and when the paper was removed it now lays dowmn flat on the scanner. As you can see by my Evers pic, my scanner sucks but its good enough for me since I am not a frequent seller of cards. I pressed the card between books to remove water and if it layed down some fiber, than it layed down some fiber. I still see nothing wrong with taking paper or glue off the back. Joe<br><br>People said it was a million dollar wound. But the government must keep that money, cause I ain't never seen a penny of it.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>A little more work and I think I can get it into a PSA8 for you and have the demand go up by 5 people....might have to submit it a dozen times but it's worth it....Then we can be the backbone of the hobby too.......Oh the joy

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Posted By: <b>JK</b><p>I dont believe that there is any evidence that this card was trimmed or "worked on" other than the removal of the paper. Looks fine to me.<br /><br /><br />Josh- it was a joke....of course it was only soaked to get the poop off the back (leon)

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Posted By: <b>greg</b><p>Joe,<br /><br />Nice job on the card and for preserving a piece of history.<br /><br />Greg

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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>Now this historical artificat can be treasured the way it was meant to be enjoyed.

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Posted By: <b>JK</b><p>Hey Leon - my response wasnt aimed at your comment (I understood yours to be a joke). Sorry that wasnt clear.

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Posted By: <b>sagard</b><p>Wasn't a rebacking job that fooled some well known grading company foiled by someone who decided to soak the card and prove it?

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Posted By: <b>Rich Klein</b><p>250

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Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>Someone rebacked an E Wagner with a T206 back. It was proven to be a fake; I am not sure if it was soaked but they did determine that i was a rebacked card.

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Posted By: <b>sagard</b><p>I thought it was either a brown or a red Hindu with a front that was not possible with the front. Someone will know for sure.

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Posted By: <b>Glyn Parson</b><p>I am astonished at the sure stupidity of some of the posters on the psa board. They honestly think PSA is catching all of this doctoring. They (PSA) have no clue anymore. I have talked to several card doctors and they all have told me how easy it now is to get bad cards through. I have been a psa submitter since 1992 but I will not buy anything for my own collection in a psa holder unless I can hold it in my hand before paying. I've known Dave Forman for a long time, about 15 years now, and I know he is far more knowledgable then everyone at PSA combined. Their is actually a moron on those boards singing the praises of Joe Orlando as such a great card expert. He was at best a midlevel collector before working for psa, and he can be lucky Baker and Rocchi left or he would be a no name still. There is also a buffoon (sp?) that keeps stating how stupid the collectors on this board are. I dont post often on either board but know that the people over here know a He11 of a lot more about cards and what is really going on out there then the bulk of the PSa board posters.

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Posted By: <b>joe brennan</b><p>I was told more than once that the founders of this hobby used to soak T206's and other cards out of scapbooks by throwing them in bath tubs full of water and letting them float up. I'm sure most of the paste came off also. If this practice was deemed ok by the founding fathers, why is such a stink being made of it by collectors 60-70 years later? You going to tell Jefferson Burdick (if he was alive) that he's a card doctor and what he did was wrong? Just because the value has increased and there are criminals doing other things to the cards to increase doesn't mean that soaking paper or glue off is a crime too. Collecting habits and preserving cards practices have vastly improved from scrap books. Actually the paper is far more harmful to the card if left on than removed. If left on the acids in the old paper and cardboard will eat away the card, virtually destroying it over time. You are not altering by removing it, you are preserving it in its original statefor many generations to come. Just think off all the T206 PSA 7's and 8's that floating up to the top of that bathtub. You might thank them for their handy work, instead of standing on your soapbox and preaching drivel. Water does not change the structure of a card. <br><br>People said it was a million dollar wound. But the government must keep that money, cause I ain't never seen a penny of it.

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Bob,<br /><br />I meant by my statement that the high end psa 8 and above cards are making up an increasing amount of the dollar volume of cards sold--and this percentage is growing dramatically.<br /><br />In fact it has grown by so much that nrmt-mt cards are the majority of the hobby from a dollar volume perspective(in my opinion). Virtually everything in the major auctions is psa 8 or better. At major shows tables are dominated by psa 8 and better stuff. So much so that the high grade material and the high grade collector has become the backbone of the hobby.<br /><br />I realize this board is dominated by low-mid grade ungraded collectors--fine to disagree--I welcome it--just no personal attacks please.<br /><br />Jim<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>Perhaps Bobby could quantify this with an actual number, but I would venture to guess that the weekly volume and dollar amount of low to mid-grade cards sold on eBay would come pretty close to the total annual volume and dollar amount of high-grade material sold by any single auction house. I'd bet that within the first quarter of the year, eBay sells more dollars in low and mid-grade vintage material than all the auction houses combined sell in high-grade cards in an entire year. I'd be shocked if I were off-base in that guess.<br /><br />There are, of course, a number of auction houses that specialize in high-grade material. But, for example, the last REA auction had a low-grade Baltimore News Ruth and T210 Jackson that sold for more money combined, I believe, than all the high-grade material in that auction.<br /><br />I respect what you collect, Jim, and think your collection is outstanding and your passion for the hobby is equal to just about anyone else I've met. But the market for low and mid-grade material is just not something that you watch closely, I don't think. It's an enormous market, and growing by the year, it seems.<br /><br />-Al

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Al,<br /><br />You might be right--just seems to me that in dollar volume sold high end cards are the majority of the hobby.<br /><br />You're right about me not following low-mid grade but I do follow over a hundred sets in high grade.<br /><br />Also keep in mind that one psa 8 common in a set could equal 50-100 f-g ungraded cards(or more). <br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>The price disparity between a PSA-8 card and the same one in good or very good condition is so great that there really is no reason to compare them. They are apples and oranges. The only similarity is each has a picture of a baseball player on it.

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Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>It's an interesting debate, I think. I try and envision what the hobby would be like if the bottom fell out of either segment, and I think they're both so interdependent that I think either way, it would hurt the hobby. <br /><br />I really do think they feed off one another. If the price of an 8 goes through the roof, it pulls up the price of a 5. A good example of that is with Goudeys, I think. If demand for midgrade cards is strong, it pushes up demand for higher grades. T3s are a good example of that.<br /><br />I think when you get into more modern issues, things may change a bit. Condition scarcity is less of an issue, and so mid-grade 1950s and 60s common cards don't have a ton of value. <br /><br />Ultimately I don't know that you can point to any one segment of the hobby and call it the "backbone." There are so many offshoots and segments, so many different ways to collect, and not any one "right" or "wrong" way, it's tough to tell.<br /><br />One thing I know for sure: whatever cards I'm buying are very hot, and prices are very strong. Whatever cards I'm selling are very cold, and prices are very weak. That's about the only thing I can bank on.<br /><br />-Al

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Barry,<br /><br />I was attempting to justify my point that the low-mid grade collector is becoming less important to the hobby in general.<br /><br />I think the way to measure this is dollar volume of cards sold and I think psa 8 and better cards account for the majority and are growing very rapidly.<br /><br />Jim

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Posted By: <b>Brian Weisner</b><p><br /> Hi Jim,<br /> I have never had the pleasure of meeting you, but respect your collection as well as your passion for the hobby. I do believe you underestimate the number of collectors in the VG-EX range that are the backbone of the hobby.<br /> I don't have as many PSA 8'S AND 9'S as you do, but I have been collecting vintage cards for 30 of my 38 years and will put my rare back collection up against anyone, including Heitman. I don't mean to brag or show off, because it's not my nature, but most of the people on this board will never own a PSA 8 or better and they really don't care, all they want is a forum of like collectors who enjoy there passion. I think you are one of those people, but your comments don't show that sometimes.<br /><br />You have a great collection that everyone would be proud of, so enjoy it and share it with the board.<br /><br /> Be well to all Brian

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Posted By: <b>Trevor Hocking</b><p>Ok I gave in a read this whole thing. I am a third generation collector and I still have a good chunk of my Grandfathers cards that he opened right from the packs in the 30's and 40's and most of the other cards he got in trade from other hobby pioneers. Many collections we bought where placed in scrapbooks back in the day, hell Cracker Jacks, American Caramel, Goudey and Topps had ones you buy to PASTE them in. Half the fun of getting those old collections was trying to get the cards out in good shape and preserve them. There was no fraud in that nor did anyone card about it either. I guess there is a fine line of wait is universally accepted, accepted but not said out loud, and just plan out restoration. I for one believe that card soaking is ok in my book. Plus if you can't tell it was done then how would you know it was done at all?<br /><br />Just my 2¢ (Man all of these ¢'s are going to add up <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> )<br /><br />Trevor

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Jim- I think the low to middle grade collector is alive and well and here to stay. The PSA-8 collectors are an elite group with a lot of money to spend on baseball cards. Nothing wrong with that, but 98% of the vintage collectors work within a budget and just can't afford them. When I collected many years ago I always went after the best grade I could. In those days an excellent card might cost $10 and a NR MT card might cost $20. Today, the gap has widened so that most collectors couldn't even aspire towards PSA-8. They can better allocate their available funds by buying more cards in middle grade. And I have to disagree with you and say that this group is the backbone of the hobby. The PSA-8 collectors may spend alot, but they are just a tiny percentage of the vintage crowd.

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Posted By: <b>DJ</b><p>Jim,<br /><br />I don't want to attack your theory that: low-mid grade collector is becoming less important to the hobby in general, but that is truly absurd to me.<br /><br />There are more of "us" then "you" and don't you think there are hundreds who have the funds to drive the price up, while ten's and ten's of thousands who bring attention to the lower condition items? I wouldn't be surprised if the big dollar collectors represent 5% of the overall purchases.<br /><br />I agree that by pulling up the 8's, it also pulls up the 5's. It's all about collecting tiers (stairs) to what you can afford to collect and enjoy. <br /><br />You take for instance the T206 Mike Donlin Fielding. There are three PSA8's in existence according to the PSA registry. None higher. So that's at least a $4,000+ card because of the Registry, right? After all, how many Donlin's exist? Fifty thousand (?), but PSA has only graded 54 of them (from PSA4-8)? How many 8's exist in binders? How many 7's are graded 8's? How many 7's should be 8's? <br /><br />Jim, notice my civil pattern? Far from what you accuse of me adding to tiresome threads, right? Outside of one thread toward you (which I apologized), I have been civil with you and basically disagreed with you... which is my right. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />DJ

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Barry,<br /><br />I agree that most people here collect low grade--I am talking about the hobby in general.<br /><br />I think you are missing the majority of the hobby dollar wise.<br /><br />Nobody said there was not a large group of passionate collectors who collect lower grade stuff-my point was they were becoming less important to the hobby in general, that psa 8 and better makes up over half of the dollar market and it is likely to grow in the future and that the high grade collector was becoming the "backbone of the hobby".<br /><br />Brian,<br /><br />I have a passion--I want to collect over 150 vintage and semi- vintage sets in psa 8 or better. I love every card I have--know a lot about most of my cards and the players. I try to add value here when I can.<br /><br />Jim<br /><br /><br /><br />Jim

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>DJ,<br /><br />Fair point. But I think you are orders of magnitude off in your percentages. I think the baseball card collecting hobby is now over 50% 8 and better dollar volume--if we asked the major show dealers and auction houses it would be substantially overr 50%--the only question as Al says is does ebay offset this?<br /><br />Jim<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>Jim:<br /><br />Can you show us your source when you say the PSA 8 collector makes up half the dollars in the hobby? I simply can't believe it, and would put the number at closer to 5-10%, if I had to guess. If you've got a hard number to prove me wrong, I'll eat one of my '38 Goudeys.<br /><br />Provided I can soak it first. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />-Al

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Jim- you won't make a lot of friends on this board if you say the mid-grade collector is becoming unimportant, because that is how virtually everyone here collects. And I know the amount spent on PSA-8 material is huge, but that is because the cost of each of those cards is so great. This kind of reminds me of a well known joke:<br /><br />50 men are sitting in a bar and to pass the time they decide to figure out their average net worth. Just as they are finishing Bill Gates walks in and orders a beer. They quickly recalculate their figures and determine that each on average is now a billionaire.<br /><br />The point is that because a small group of buyers spends a disproportionate amount of money on high grade cards it greatly skews the average. Even if less than half the hobby money was spent on PSA-2 to PSA-4 it might still represent 98% of the collectors. There are just different ways to view the numbers.

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>So if Warren Buffett spends $500 million on a PSA4 T210 Joe Jackson will that make PSA4 Collectors the new "backbone" of the hobby?

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Posted By: <b>Trevor Hocking</b><p>Hey Jim,<br /><br />I will say in my eyes you are missing what people are trying to say about this hobby. The vintage card hobby for the most part dose not look at there cards as manly cash value or a potential increase of value. I believe that most collectors wish that these cards where worth a lot less so they could afford more cards. I do know these cards cost so much to obtain today it is hard not to think about what they are worth or how much to budget, but at the end of the day we just love the way they look, the history of the game and how they got into our little hands. Some want the best condition they can afford, some just want one of each for a set, or one to fill in a type. At the end of the day to think this hobby is defined on how much money which type of collector is willing pay to in hobby is quit sad. I do know you have a ton of passion for this hobby, I can tell, but to make it so concentrated on the $ amount which type of collector is spending doesn't sound right. I hope this hobby has not turning that way.

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Al,<br /><br />If you started with the major auctions and calculated how much of their dollar value is high end cards, you would get a very high percentage psa 8 and better.<br /><br />Then if you calculated the total sales of the largest show dealers you would get a very high percentage psa 8 and better.<br /><br />Even the hated ebay does a lot in psa 8 and better cards.<br /><br />What am I missing in your opinion?<br /><br />Barry,<br /><br />I'm not your typical guy on this board--really don't care about making friends. I am on the board to learn more about vintage cards, exchange ideas and if I am lucky recently to galvanize change in the hobby when it comes to card alteration.<br /><br />Dan,<br /><br />No--but if you asked any of the major dealers or auction houses how important 8 and better cards are to them it would be the vast majority. You can only be a backbone in my opinion if you make up a majority of the hobby.

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Trevor,<br /><br />Good points and I see where you are coming from.<br /><br />I do think that people who have a lot of money tied up in their collection care about the value of it. These people have just as much passion for the hobby as a guy who collects p-f cards. <br /><br />When people talk about the hobby and collections they talk about about Fogel and Louchios and Merkel and Spence and when people talk about most dealers it is Mastronet and Memory Lane and SCP and Mile High--this is a huge part of the hobby--there are tons of collectors collecting 50s, 60s, 70s--the vast majority of this high grade.<br /><br />Not knocking the low grade collector--just saying that from a number of perspectives he is becoming a less important part of the hobby.<br /><br />Jim

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Posted By: <b>Trevor Hocking</b><p>No, see Jim I think this is where you are mistaken. For every Fogel, Louchios, Merkel and Spence there are 10 for each one of those great collectors who spend just as much if not more on P to ExMt cards. It's just hard to know when so many private deals happen on these semi rare to rare collections that never run through the auction circuit. I do think you are very knowledgeable to all the $ amounts being spent in the high grade card market but when it comes to raw and lower grade cards you are missing the mark. But like I said it really shouldn't matter who is spending wait, it should just matter that well all love the same cards, high grade or low. We should all hold the same respect for each kind of collector because we all love the same thing.<br /><br />Trevor

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Posted By: <b>greg</b><p>"Not knocking the low grade collector--just saying that from a number of perspectives he is becoming a less important part of the hobby."<br /><br />What a pitiful sad remark.

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Posted By: <b>scott brockelman</b><p>A pitiful misguided fool that has no idea what he is talking about.<br /><br />Scott

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Posted By: <b>Patrick McHugh</b><p>Well in terms of high grade low grade here is my take. Besides a few of the mainstream sets ie. t206 etc. most of the sets collected by members on this board do not exhist in high grade. Heck just try to compleate a t207 or an m101-5 set in any grade very very tough to do. I can walk into the national and start from scratch and put together a 1958 topps set in psa 8 before the show is over-4 days. An m101-5 set may take you 4 years to finish and it will not be in psa 8 because you can not find non exhistent cards. So really apples are being compared to oranges. Everyone should enjoy what they collect that is the backbone of the hobby.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>edited to be nicer...

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Posted By: <b>Trevor Hocking</b><p>I do have to leave for a bit tonight so I don't want to seem like I am ducking out of this good conversation. But what really matters here is a little respect for everyone including Jim. I also believe that the backbone of the hobby is the 11-16 old kids buying there first T206 because heck when we are gone they are the ones that are going to have the disposable income to buy our little pieces of cardboard joy <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Trevor

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Posted By: <b>DJ</b><p>You hit on the head Trevor. The average collector who collects cards, why do they have to know who Fogel, Louchios or Merkel are? <br /><br />They just spend their $30 on a creased card and proudly add it to their collection. I bet 95% of the collectors have no idea who they are, which is basically the collector's who support low grade cards. Of course "the backbone" knows who they are. <br /><br />The way I look at this Forum is a community...and you don't care if you make friends? I look forward to meeting the people behind these words in the future. Barry. Scott B. Moderator. I can't wait to get Wonka to sign some of his original art for me!<br /><br />A person completes a T206 set and everyone on the VBC Forum congratulates them on the feat.<br /><br />Jim, look at the Pick up thread sometime. Almost all are off condition cards that go into a loving collections and people congratulating them on their pickups. People proudly displaying their latest purchases. Nobody ever asks how much they paid for the item. The price doesn't for the most part matter to the VBC Forum collecting group. <br /><br />DJ<br /><br />edit: mad typo mistake<br />

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Posted By: <b>scott brockelman</b><p>Jim has earned his disrespect, it comes from his arrogant, pompous, ill informed and condescending comments(did I leave any out?) to the majority of the collectors on this board. <br /><br />Further he has now stated that he is not here to befriend any of the other collectors. Apparently he believes alienating them from the upper echelon of PSA 8 collectors will be for the betterment of the backbone of the hobby.<br /><br />Scott

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Trevor,<br /><br />Couldn't agree more.<br /><br />Scott,<br /><br />Can you have an intelligent debate without constantly insulting me or is it beyond you?<br />Here is a hint--if you have nothing intelligent to say or to add to the conversation be quiet.<br /><br />Thanks to those who thought it was an interesting discussion--if Scott follows his last pattern he will keep insulting me so if anyone wants to continue the debate please e--mail me.<br /><br />Jim

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Posted By: <b>Rhett Yeakley</b><p>Jim, I really don't understand why, but you are not listening to what people are saying to you. I (apparently along with many other people) just don't believe you when you say that more than half the vintage market action is tied up in PSA 8 or better(over and over and over...). You keep saying this as if you have stats to back it up, if you do, I (along with others) would love to see them. However, it seems that if you tell yourself something enough times, you start to believe it. Prove to all of us that you are right and we will let you be, but until then don't keep saying PSA 8's are more than 50% of the marketplace. Like others if you can prove it, I will be the first to eat crow.<br /><br />-Rhett (one of the dying breed of PSA/SGC 1-7 collectors)<br /><br />Also, regardless of the $$ involved, why would lower grade collectors become less important when they are admittedly still the majority (in numbers). Is the $$ being exchanged really the true measure of importance?

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>DJ,<br /><br />To each his own. i enjoy participating but being friends is not important to me. If you make some friends here wonderful.<br /><br />As far as the attacker as Ronald Reagan would say--"there you go again". Try to say something intelligent scott.

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Rhett,<br /><br />Neither of us can prove it but if we were to add up the auction totals or ask large intage dealers what percentage of their sales are psa 8 or sgc 88 or better it would be an overwhelming percentage I'm sure.<br /><br />Jim

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Posted By: <b>scott brockelman</b><p>I am laying it out for you exactly as you type it. I have no problem calling you out on it. If you can't say anything nice about the collectors and their collections on this board just shut up and quit telling us that PSA 8's are the backbone of the hobby and all the nonsensical horse **** that you try to back it up with.<br /><br />AGAIN so you can clearly understand, I and most of the other participants on this board do not care about your 150+/- PSA 8 sets. We all know they cost you a lot of money, but that's not the focus here.<br /><br />If you truely want to learn about vintage cards, just quit typing and begin reading all the threads. There are many informational and exceptionally well done research threads on the front page right now, along with many others available by searching. BUT, I already know they won't interest you as none will have the sacred 8's you seek.<br /><br />Scott<br />

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Posted By: <b>Colt McClelland</b><p>Leon,<br /><br />I think if you take a 30,000 foot view of Jim's comments on this board, it is fair to say he is talking about issues relating to collecting high grade cards mostly from the 50's, 60's, etc. His comments consistently point us in a direction that has nothing to do with pre-war cards. Obviously, this is not what this board is for, and I think that is a big part of the frustration with Jim on this board. My opinion is that this type of O/T behavior should be banned. I've seen plenty of others come on to the board with such O/T behavior who have been told to cease and desist.

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Colt,<br /><br />I am talking about the entire hobby--not just pre-war. Pre-war is an important part though. You just are sticking up for your dealer friends who may be altering cards.<br /><br />Scott,<br /><br />I never talk about all my psa sets on the board--sorry.<br /><br />And I do read most threads and I have learned a lot.<br /><br />Other than that I will be happy to debate you point by point if you get off the hate Jim kick.<br /><br />I respect everyones collection equally. Collect what you like. I like pre-war cards--so do you--I like them in 8 or better--you don't.<br /><br />I can co-exist with people--people must agree with you or you go into a personal attack. A lot of people think its an interesting topic--if you don't fine--can't you just debate intelligently or not comment?<br /><br />Jim<br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Rhett Yeakley</b><p>Jim, we never said anything about the $$ sold by the largest dealers, you talked about total sales of vintage cards. Also, enough of this "i'm sure" and "in my opinion" stuff. Basically, all of that is meaningless. I could say in my opinion the sky is purple, but it would still be a lie. Give us facts or quit talking.<br />-Rhett

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Posted By: <b>Colt McClelland</b><p>Jim,<br /><br />My comment was for Leon not for you. This is just further evidence that you are not reading these posts carefully and with an eye towards what people are trying to say. You are here with your own agenda, and it does not mesh with the purpose of this board. If you are really here to learn, then you should be reading the posts, not writing them.<br /><br />To make it clear for you - TAKE YOUR AGENDA SOMEWHERE ELSE.

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Posted By: <b>Rhett Yeakley</b><p>Just food for thought... If you think about sales being roughly equal (in #'s) amongst all grades proportionatly. (Ex. If for a particular card 10 cards exist as PSA 8's and 100 exist as 3's, if 30% were sold each year 3 PSA 8's, and 30 PSA 3's would have been sold)<br /><br /> Jim, if this is true are you basically saying that all cards graded 8, 9, or 10 would be more valuable than the existing cards graded 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, and all ungraded cards combined? If so, I think this argument may very well be the dumbest that the board has ever had.<br />-Rhett

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Rhett,<br /><br />Now now--talking about transactions in a given year.<br /><br />Tell me--give me %s psa 8 and better in auctions, how about show dealers, how about ebay and what each account for of total market?<br /><br />Jim

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Posted By: <b>Tom Boblitt</b><p>for someone who says they respect everyone equally, statements like "the low midgrade collector is becoming a less important part of the hobby" goes COMPLETELY against showing even the most modest amount of respect.....Not many people enjoy being told they are "less important". Typically not much of a term of respect. PSA8's are great. Beautiful cards. Maybe trimmed, soaked, whatever, but VISUALLY beautiful. It's great to see a lovely 1970 Milton Bradley set in PSA8. I would not, under any circumstances pay WAZOO prices for 1970 Milton Bradley's in PSA8 just to have another PSA8 set. Just not my bag. Fortunately for PSA and the registry gods, people do. And that's their right. Just like collecting psa3-5 complete T206 sets that MANY people on this board do. <br /><br />The one thing that most people on this board can hang their hat on by collecting mid grade cards is if there's ever a fall in cards the folks hanging their hats on 8's and 9's will have a lot farther to fall than those with the 4's, 5's and 6's. When you pay 400% more for an 8 than what you'd pay for a 5 or 6 or even 7, that creates a great deal of gap. The pop reports bear that out and the market bears it. But it might not forever. <br /><br />Wish you luck........

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Posted By: <b>Rhett Yeakley</b><p>Jim, I don't think it is a streatch to think that the # of cards in each grade are sold proportionately to their populations. Do you have information that would say otherwise? <br /><br />IF cards are sold proportionately to their populations, it isn't a big stretch to think that adding up values (or sales) of the cards in 8 and above then comparing to values (or sales) of cards with grades 7 and below (raw also included in this group) and saying a similar proportion (in # of cards) within each group are sold each time period (be it a decade, a year, etc.) would be a indication of "market".<br /><br />-Rhett

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Posted By: <b>joe brennan</b><p>I keep hearing Auction house sales and high dollar cards. I'm sorry to disapoint you, but if you took a poll of Pre War collectors, 95% of the backbone of the hobby haven't ever bid on Auction House cardsnor will they ever be able too. 98% of all sales of pre war cards are funneled through e-bay. I don't have proof of the %'s but I bet I'm pretty close and that my friend Jim is the backbone of a hobby. The everyday run of the mill $200 a week x 50,000 strong population of collectors. Not the 10 people that keep trading high dollar card back and forth between them. Just call me Mr.Backbone from now on.<br /><br />Football has sky boxes filled with people with unlimited dollars, but the 80,000 common folk in the $50 seats are the backbone of the game. Don't ever kid yourself. If the common folk lose interest in the hobby, you won't have to worry about backbones any more because you'll be able to acquire all the cards you want for free. All they will be is what they were meant to be, pieces of cardboard with pictures on them. <br /><br /><br />They call me Mr "Tater Salad" Backbone.<br><br>People said it was a million dollar wound. But the government must keep that money, cause I ain't never seen a penny of it.

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Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>I could see how, if one spent a big portion of his card budget on major auctions, one would think that 8s and higher are the backbone of the hobby.<br /><br />I just spent about an hour going through Mastro's last auction, card by card, separating sales of PSA/SGC/and even Global (although they hardly count, I understand) 8s and higher from everything lower. I got to about $1.4 million in high grade stuff, $1.4 million in lesser grade stuff, and then I started messing up and accidentally zeroed out my calculator while I was in the middle of the hockey cards.<br /><br />Damn hockey cards.<br /><br />Anyway, I think that it's important to consider the venue. That Mastro auction, or some of the others Jim mentioned in an earlier post, are primary sales channels for high-grade single cards or high-ranking registry sets. If that's what you looked at to gauge the hobby, I can see how you'd get the impression that the NM-MT cards are dominating the hobby.<br /><br />It's kinda like, if Carvel and Dairy Queen were the only restaurants in my town, I would probably think that the whole world ate nothing but ice cream.<br /><br />The reality is that it's 12:40 PM EST and in the time it's taken me to add up all those Mastro figures, there have been hundreds and hundreds of ungraded or low-mid grade cards sold on eBay. It's a 24-hour, 7-day marketplace that's always happening, with items closing virtually every minute of every day. <br /><br />Add to that the fact that many of the auction houses (like Mastro above) have midgrade sales that are roughly equal to high-grade sales, and many more have midgrade sales that eclipse high-grade sales, and it's pretty clear to me that in terms of total dollars, the low and midgrade stuff are still driving the bulk of the sales and volumes in the hobby's secondary market.<br /><br />Yes, the high-grade stuff will always outpace everything else in terms of pound-for-pound sales - an SGC 88 card will always sell for a significant premium over an SGC 60 - but I look at it this way:<br /><br />Is Neiman-Marcus the backbone of the retail world? No. Wal-Mart is. Target is. Neiman-Marcus may offer a higher-end product for a different type of discriminating buyer, but Wal-Mart appeals to a larger demo. What's really cool is that I can walk into a Neiman-Marcus AND a Wal-Mart, buy stuff in both stores, and then come home and soak them, stretch them, trim them and resell them on eBay to BOTH types of people.<br /><br />-Al

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Posted By: <b>DJ</b><p>Perfect, Al.<br /><br />Is Neiman-Marcus the backbone of the retail world? No. <br /><br />Wal-Mart is. Target is.<br /><br />DJ<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>.

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Posted By: <b>Ryan Christoff</b><p>I say we give Jim a break. He just finished reading "How To Win Friends And Influence People" by Bruce Dorskind and is trying to put into action the valuable lessons he's just discovered. <br /><br />-Ryan<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>Gee, just think, this all started with a question about whether or not a g/vg Zeenut could be soaked to remove back paper <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Jim- I am going to end my part of the discussion by saying that you are confusing "the hobby" with the "the investment." The backbone of those with investment portfolios might be you and the Dorskinds of the world, but to me the backbone of "the hobby" run the gamut from the Barry Sloates, Steve Murrays, Tim Newcombs, Mike Peichs, Max Weders, Ted Z.s, Franks and the older guys (of which I qualify) down to the young guys on this board who are so great because of their passion for card collecting, who have made me thrilled that he hobby continues to get stronger even though older collectors near the sunset years. I looked on this board to see the names of who has posted who felt rankled at your statements of what constituted the backbone of the hobby and it is a veritable "who's who" of prewar collectors. <br />I would love it if the value of cards in my collection continued to climb but on the other hand, I would also be happy to once again buy vgex E98s for $75. I say that because I flat love the cards, their history and the history of prewar baseball. I've have learned SO MUCH about not only baseball but America by spending time looking up and reading about the guys on these pieces of cardboard. I guess that's where we differ, Jim, I would rather read a book about the 1906 World Series than look up SMRs. I have raw cards in tobacco sets in my collection which I suspect could grade out very highly but I am in no hurry to get them graded. There are a lot of other collectors who feel the same way, so if you think there are only "x" number of high grades cards out there of a particular player, you could be in a very bug shock. <br />BTW- I don't have any animosity toward anyone who collects or has in his collection high graded cards. Scott Mosley has the best darn E98s anywhere in existence and yet Scott is a helluva nice guy and would never presume to be arrogant or aloof to anyone. I think it is not card envy that has caused so many people here to resent your comments but the attitude in which your comments were delivered. <br />As my buddy Mike Peisch says "cheers!"<br />tbob

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Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>Aw crap, since I started this thread, I deserve to be post #300 <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br />Happy holidays y'all.<br />tbob

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Posted By: <b>John S</b><p>Jim,<br /><br />Do you feel that within the hobby there is a hierarchy amongst collectors? I am making an assumption that you do. In your mind (just deducing this from your comments) this card collecting caste system places people that collect as you do at the top and individuals like myself who collect mainly GD-VG material near the bottom. <br /><br />Your comment that "I am not here to make friends" was disturbing. And while I do not use the internet to widen my social circles, interacting with fellow hobbyists in a positive manner does make the hobby more enjoyable.<br /><br />Please understand that most of us do this for fun. Your comments indicate to me that your collection induces more stress than relaxation (fears of tampering, card alteration, etc.). They are just pieces of cardboard and no regulatory commission, or plastic slabs, or amounts of money will ever change that.

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Posted By: <b>Dan Kravitz</b><p>What a ridiculous topic!<br /><br />Most of the cards I collect only are available in low grades. I spent a very long time looking for a Cocoa Cobb, and when I found one I grabbed it. With a very limited amount known to exist of any card, you don't have many choices. And even if the Cocoa Cobb did exist in an 8 holder, I would spend so much money that I wouldn't be able to feed my family. We would just sit around the dinner table and look at the Cobb. Wait a second... That doesn't sound too bad.<br /><br />The point is if you collect rare/scarce cards you have limited choices. Try and find a t-208 Plank, Kotton Cobb, Red Hindu Cobb, Mino Cobb, (you can kinda tell I'm a Cobb fan) or any other highly sought after scarce card in a high grade holder. They just don't exist, and if they do, 95% of vintage collectors could not afford it. Another thing is that the scarce pristine vintage cards just look fake. I like rounded edges and corners where you can see the layers pealing. It just seems right.<br /><br />My point is that I am no less important because I like the rare/scarce Cobb's & Wagner's. When less than 5 cards are known to exist, I take what I find and have a smile on my face for weeks knowing that I have one and guys who collect PSA 8's or better don't.<br /><br />Leon- Hopefully this is not too much to ask for, but I need a spell check and for you to add a number or count each time a thread is added to. When the thread goes over 300 it's hard to figure out where I left off. <br /><br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>This is evolving into the same class warfare that the board always ends up in. Personalities aside, and we clearly have serious clashes in that department, this discussion still revolves around most dollars spent vs. what constitutes the typical collector. If collector A has spent $1 million on PSA-8 cards, and 50 collectors spend $10,000 each on lower grade cards, the PSA-8 collector has outspent the rest of the market by 2 to 1, yet represents only 2% of the group. So it is still unclear how we define "backbone" of the hobby- who is spending the most or who is best represented? I would define "backbone" as which group has the greatest number of collectors. For me, the PSA-8 crowd is just an elite niche of the market. Again, there is no right or wrong way to collect. We just have not satisfactorily defined which group best represents the hobby. We know an auction house like Mastro is dominated by PSA-8 cards, but their whole business model is to offer the finest cards to the best heeled group out there. They recently sold a high grade E93 set for over 300K. Would we define that as a typical hobby transaction? Hardly.

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Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>JohnS,<br /><br />I think there are famous well known collectors whose collections are highly regarded but I would not call it a hierarchy of collectors.<br /><br />We all collect for different reasons and its all good. I collect primarily for enjoyment too. I enjoy the banter on the boards as well and I know a lot of collectors and dealers personally--wouldn't necessarily call them friends though.<br /><br />Bob,<br /><br />Cheers to you too. I love the hobby too. For the guys who collect pre-war great--for those who collect 1994 Donruss great--<br /><br />I just think over time these will mostly all end up in graded card holders and increasingly the 8 and better segment is becoming the largest segment in the hobby. You disagree--fine. I like to provoke lively debate about important hobby topics--many of which relate to prewar--<br /><br />For those of you that like the relaxing threads that are many knowledgeable collectors provide--great--skip mine. But I like the serious discussions about interesting hobby topics.<br /><br />Happy Holidays to you.<br /><br />Jim

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Barry,<br /><br />Fair point over whether we should define it by dollar volume or numbers of collectors. I am thinking about it perhaps from the perspective of dealers, auction houses, shows that are dominated by 8 and better stuff.<br /><br />Tom,<br /><br />Did not intend to show a lack of respect--was just trying to offer an opinion. Its like the ungraded collectors who come on here and talk about the high percentage of psa 8 cards that are altered--its a serious opinion that I vehemently disagree with but those are some of the most interesting discussions on the board. So people vehemently disagree with me--fine.<br /><br />Yes--I agree that high grade cards would go down in value in a general price downturn--given the long upturn we have had there will be a correction sometime--actually we have seen rolling corrections in price in different segments within a long upturn.<br /><br />Jim<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>The 8-9-10 cards will become the biggest segment of the hobby...BECAUSE THEY ARE MAKING THEM AS FAST AS THEY CAN CRANK THEM OUT!!! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Peter_Spaeth</b><p>Perhaps we should take a poll. Using the most extreme definition of alteration to include even things many or even most folks would consider acceptable (erasing pencil, soaking out of scrapbooks, flattening corner flips), what percentage of PSA 8 pre-WW II cards do you think have been "altered" in some way shape or form.

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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>...55% -70% -- a moderate amount of trimming (which is difficult to detect) and a significant amount of soaking (which is impossible to detect).

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Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>Using the most extreme definition of "altering", which would include soaking out of a scrapbook or similar gunk removal, I go under the assumption that they all are, unless there's iron-clad provenance or a unique story behind them (like with the Tango Eggs).<br /><br />Doesn't stop me from liking them, owning a few, or recognizing their value.<br /><br />-Al

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Posted By: <b>Will</b><p>After devoting so much time to reading this thread, I had to say something...<br />Back when I was a part-time dealer in off-condition vintage (in the 90's when there were shows), my typical day was:<br />$1,000 gross sales, 30 different transactions, $400 profit<br />High-end vintage (graded)dealers (people I know and like)typical was:<br />$3,000 gross sales, 5 different transactions, $200 profit.<br />If 10 of my regulars didn't show, I had a bad day. If 2 of theirs didn't show, they had a bad day. I also didn't have or need the 6 locking showcases and bodybag to secure everything.<br />If you only follow certain aspects of the hobby, please don't make blanket statements about the hobby. I know nothing about high-end vintage (except a little from this board)or anything post-1980. If you want to talk flea-markets and hotel shows in Baltimore, I'm the guy. Or rummaging through piles of old photos in an antique or "junque" shop. Please do not minimize what or how I collect based on what/how you collect and please, please, please leave out the words "invest" and "investment" when referring to collecting.<br />William List<br />

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>I think Peter is on to something: however, why not have a poll on what we consider altering to be?

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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>There were two alteration polls in August -- one centered on soaking/erasing; the other on flatening/removing creases. I would prefer to see the opinions of the board on the poll suggested by Peter.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Peter's poll is provocative in theory; the problem is everybody who participates would be guessing. It would end up being a very unscientific poll, with numbers all over the place. It would be mostly hearsay without much evidence.

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Posted By: <b>Peter_Spaeth</b><p>Life would be no fun without a little hearsay and speculation. Obviously the point is not to come up with a definitive answer, just to see what people think would itself be interesting I think.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>The answers would be all over the board, from none, to 2% to 10% to 40%..and nobody would really know. My guess would be about 5%, or perhaps a little more. And my answer is based on absolutely nothing.

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>I met with a leading dealer in the Northeast yesterday who told me he thought that for both graded and ungraded he thought a far higher percent of low grade and mid-grade cards were altered than high grade and that the card doctors were doing all sorts of stuff to the low-mid grade cards as it was tougher to detect.<br /><br />He also sold be a 41PB Joe D and a 38 Goudey Foxx.<br />Getting close to complete in 8 on the first set--the 38 Goudeys are very difficult to copmplete in high grade.<br /><br />Just thought I would pass it on.<br /><br />Jim

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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>Yeah, all those creased VG 3's are totally altered. Are you that naive? Though, by your definition, the PSA 1's with paper loss on the back from scrap book removal are technically "altered." <br /><br />The fact that you purchased high grade cards from the same guy who you are getting information from makes his opinion, well, totally and completely biased. Did he tell you the cards he was selling you were not altered before or after you made the deal?<br /><br />Finally, how does your near completion of the Goudey sets have anything to do with soaking or altering cards?

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Paul,<br /><br />He thought that it was easy to improve a 3 to 5 --much more difficult to improve a 6 to an 8 and from what he knew the first was much more widespread.<br /><br />Not biased--just repeating what he said. He has been a large dealer for 15-20 years.<br /><br />And rather than post somewhere else on my new purchases I just added it here--<br /><br />Sorry you took offense.<br /><br />Jim

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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>...ask him how to improve a 3 to a 5? Because I'd wager there is no way to do that in an undetectable fashion. And remember, card soaking is not about improving a 6 to an 8 -- it is about cleaning off a back to move from a 1 to an 8. And it is just as easy to move from a 1 to an 8 as it is to move from a 1 to a 5. I just don't have any concern about that particular movement.<br /><br />I suspect you'll find a lot of dealers of PSA 8 material to back his theory up though.