Mastro Auctions Being Investigated by the FBI
 

Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>"The old adage is "where there's smoke, there is fire." It's pretty simple, the Feds will indict only if they believe that they can convict. This is quite different than if Mastro is running a shilling operation. It is quite difficult in this situation to get sufficient evidence. There may be shilling going on but the Feds do not believe that they can convict and may never ask for an indictment.<br />"<br /><br /><br />Great stuff Pete C. You now have Mastro guilty of wrongdoing regardless of there being any evidence to support the allegation. I think you're participating in the old adage, throw some **** and some of it will stick.<br /><br />Awesome!<br /><br /><br /><br />Daniel

Mastro Auctions Being Investigated by the FBI
 

Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Daniel, Kevin<br /><br />An investigation is just an investigation...but the FBI seldom investigates if there is no evidence.<br /><br />Peter

Mastro Auctions Being Investigated by the FBI
 

Posted By: <b>Rob Dewolf</b><p>Peter,<br /><br />So you're saying that -- typically -- the FBI would need evidence of a crime having been committed before they would begin an investigation?

Mastro Auctions Being Investigated by the FBI
 

Posted By: <b>JK</b><p>Actually Peter, <br /><br />The FBI will investigate complaints, leads, etc. - usually the investigation turns up the evidence, if there is any to be turned up. In this case, its my understanding that the FBI is investigating a complaint of shill bidding.<br /><br />Also, Im no criminal lawyer, but I always thought that guilt was determined when the evidence of said guilt was beyond a reasonable doubt. Not when there was just "some" evidence.<br /><br />

Mastro Auctions Being Investigated by the FBI
 

Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>JK,<br /><br />Like Peter S. says, I should leave criminal law to Jeff, I'm just giving you a layperson's opinion here.<br /><br />The FBI recieves a lot of complaints all day long. The complaints themselves is potential evidence. They have their own internal standards as to which complaints they will pursue and investigate.<br />They do not pursue every complaint.<br /><br />Normally, when they are investigating they are looking for additional evidence.<br /><br />Peter

Mastro Auctions Being Investigated by the FBI
 

Posted By: <b>JK</b><p>Peter,<br /><br />First - I never said the FBI investigates each and every complaint that they receive. One would assume they have screening mechanisms in place. Second - a complaint, in and of itself, is not evidence. Its an allegation. Though I agree that when a complaint is made, it may be accompanied by evidence.

Mastro Auctions Being Investigated by the FBI
 

Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Seems like if there were an investigation going on by the FBI that the President of Mastro would have ever spoken to them or know about it. They haven't and all this is, is pure gossip. Not one shred of absolute evidence that there is an investigation going on at all. Not one. All we have is some guy (O'keefe) running at the mouth writing a ficitional column. Did Noe do stuff wrong? Absolutely and was found guilty. That's all there is...... Doug has never spoken to the FBI nor is he aware of an investigation, he told me this morning. I told him there is no way he should come on this board to have the few folks that don't like Mastro twist his words the way they always do. Until I see something that proves there is an investigation going on then I feel this is all a contrived bullcrap story. Prove me wrong or shut the hell up...<br /><br />edited grammar

Mastro Auctions Being Investigated by the FBI
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Peter,<br /><br />We find it much more interesting to hear your interpretation of criminal law than Jeff's. Keep on giving us your views <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>.

Mastro Auctions Being Investigated by the FBI
 

Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>The presence of evidence doesn't automatically mean anything bad happened. In fact, evidence regularly exists when someone is innocent. If a customer was at a bank the day when money was stolen: that is evidence that he committed a crime. There may be other evidence that shows he didn't steal the money. A look at video tape may show he left at noon, not returning that day, while the money was stolen as 4. <br /><br />Say one person committed a crime and the police say, "There is evidence that one of you five guys committed the crime." This is evidence against each of the five, but does not equate with all five having committed the crime. In fact, it literally equates with 4-5 not having committed the crime. <br /><br />While I'm sure they don't wish to waste their time, the FBI 'looking at evidence' does not automatically equate with guilt or even a crime. The FBI may decide that the evidence shows a crime was not committed. One can't determine innocence or guilt before looking at the evidence.

Mastro Auctions Being Investigated by the FBI
 

Posted By: <b>PSpaeth</b><p>If it was already reproduced my apologies, Leon please delete.<br /><br /> <br />---------------------------------------------------------------------<br /><br />FBI probes hobby biz honchos <br /><br />--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br /><br />BY MICHAEL O'KEEFFE<br />DAILY NEWS SPORTS WRITER<br /><br />Sunday, July 8th 2007, 4:00 AM <br /> <br /><br />--------------------------------------------------------------------------------<br /><br />Print Email Suggest a Story <br />The Chicago division of the FBI, whose "Operation Foul Ball" smashed a multistate autograph forgery ring during the 1990s, has initiated an investigation into Mastro Auctions, sports memorabilia's largest auction house.<br /><br />At least two hobby executives have been questioned about Mastro Auction's business practices in recent weeks by the FBI, the Daily News has learned. So has the president of Development Specialists Inc., the company hired by the state of Ohio to liquidate coins and collectibles purchased with state money by Tom Noe, the Republican Party official convicted last year of stealing from a $50 million workers compensation fund and sentenced to 18 years in prison.<br /><br />"We have talked to the Chicago office of the FBI about their investigation and we are deferring some of our activities in deference to their investigation," DSI president William Brandt said.<br /><br />FBI spokesman Ross Rice said he could not confirm or deny an investigation into Mastro Auctions was underway. Mastro Auctions president Doug Allen said he was not aware of the FBI investigation.<br /><br />"We have not been contacted by the FBI or by the police," Allen said. "I have not heard anything about it."<br /><br />Indiana memorabilia dealer Bill Daniels, one of the hobby executives questioned by the FBI, said he provided information about "shill bidding," when an auction house or a consignor enters fake bids on an item in order to drive up the price.<br /><br />"I gave them the name of a consignor who bid on his own lots in Mastro Auctions," said Daniels, who was interviewed by an agent about 10 days ago. "I think this is a big problem. It is not ethical for a consignor to bid on his own lots."<br /><br />Daniels sued Mastro Auctions last year over a collection of 2,000 autographed photos he purchased in a December 2004 Mastro sale. Daniels claims the lot includes numerous forged autographs, as well as damaged photos and smeared signatures. An Indiana judge reviewed evidence from both sides this spring and is expected to issue a ruling this month.<br /><br />"One thing I discussed with the FBI is the fact that during discovery, Mastro could produce no records about the lot," Daniels said. "They could not produce records about who the runnerup was or whether there were even any other bidders."<br /><br />The other executive, meanwhile, confirmed that he has been questioned by the FBI but declined comment for this story.<br /><br />As The News reported last year, investigators who searched Noe's Vintage Coins and Collectibles in Maumee, Ohio, in 2005 found a cache of collectibles - everything from Beanie Babies to 19th century political banners to autographed baseballs - worth an estimated $3.5 million. Authorities believe the GOP fund-raiser bought most of the collectibles with state money; a major source of the memorabilia was Mastro Auctions of Burr Ridge, Ill.<br /><br />Brandt said Mastro Auctions has not cooperated with DSI officials as they attempt to recover and liquidate assets Noe bought with money from the Ohio Bureau of Workers Compensation fund. He said attorney Randy Mastro, a deputy mayor under Mayor Rudy Giuliani and the brother of Mastro Auctions founder Bill Mastro, has told him to "pound sand."<br /><br />"That's not true," Allen said. "I don't believe what anybody from that company says. It's comical. It's all lies."<br /><br />

Mastro Auctions Being Investigated by the FBI
 

Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>I think we should not be too quick to pull the trigger on Mastro. The FBI will investigate and it has been my experience that if an indictment results, they have the goods, but if not it will fade away. I echo the sentiments of a prior post that the feds (at least in this Circuit) rarely proceed in any case unless they believe they have an air tight case. While State prosecutors often file and even take cases to court which have holes and are shakey, the feds (again at least here) rarely do so. They are very slow to indict but when they do, they normally not only have pictures of the hand in the cookie jar, they have the jar and hand itself. If you don't have a legitimate 4th Amendment issue, you are generally scrod because they do their homework and are not sloppy.

Mastro Auctions Being Investigated by the FBI
 

Posted By: <b>PSpaeth</b><p>Daniels' statement makes no sense to me. If his suit against Mastro was for misrepresentation, and presumably damages (difference between what he paid and what he got) or rescission, what difference would it make who else bid or how much? Probably if asked to produce this Mastro legitimately objected on relevance grounds.

Mastro Auctions Being Investigated by the FBI
 

Posted By: <b>David Bowden</b><p>As a new member to this board I'm sure what I say has as much relevence to many members as a complete set of 1990 Donruss. When I first started being a lurker a few months ago there was an attempt by Leon to keep the board vintage related without all the bickering. I sent Leon an email thanking him because I wanted to learn about vintage and not learn about members personal attacks. I must say I was shocked to see Leons last post. I love that the forum owner posts but telling someone to shut up just made him look as bad if not worse than others.IMO I would figure he should be the most reasonable, but what do I know. This board has great people but they just don't seem to act it all the time. If there is an investigation than it is relevant to this board and should be talked about , if it was from last year or today. I have had enough of this and would like to get back to the hobby I enjoy.<br /><br />David Bowden

Mastro Auctions Being Investigated by the FBI
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Lawyers,<br /><br />What do you think of Leon's point that if there was really an FBI investigation of Mastro Auctions that the president would know about it?? Couldn't investigation be proceeding without knowledge of company?<br /><br />Jim

Mastro Auctions Being Investigated by the FBI
 

Posted By: <b>Corey R. Shanus</b><p>Let's say there is an ongoing investigation. Presumably if Mastro Auctions did all these bad things, then ultimately there will be an indictment, trial and conviction. Can't we just in the meantime give them the presumption of innocence that in America any company/individual is entitled to? There will be plenty of time later if they are ultimately found guilty to express our views.

Mastro Auctions Being Investigated by the FBI
 

Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>I suspect that if the NY Daily News (or whatever paper is publishing the alleged investigation) is publishing untruths, it will be met with a lawsuit from the party about which it is writing.

Mastro Auctions Being Investigated by the FBI
 

Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I respect your thoughts and believe it or not my angst was because I do want to get back to talking about the hobby, not hearsay from a reporter. If there has been an investigation then it's been going on for a year with nothing yet to indict on...and the folks being investigated have never been questioned. Please continue if you want to .....I really am just frustrated and you should know that I won't squelch what anyone has to say if they put their name by it.......best regards

Mastro Auctions Being Investigated by the FBI
 

Posted By: <b>Jim Dale</b><p>There is no reason to assume the FBI would notify the company. A lot of times federal warrants are issued to obtain records from businesses and that is often when they learn of a pending investigation.

Mastro Auctions Being Investigated by the FBI
 

Posted By: <b>Josh Adams</b><p>Jim, <br />Most likely, the president of the company would be the first to know. Then he'd refer the FBI to that company's attorneys. <br /><br />It seems like common sense that if a company is being investigated by the FBI, the very first person to know is the president. Who else would be the first to have knowledge of a pending investigation? Joe Mailroom guy? <br /><br />On a side note, when an individual is being investigated by the grand jury, the U.S. Attorney's office for that district sends a letter informing that individual of the ongoing investigation.

Mastro Auctions Being Investigated by the FBI
 

Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Could be Bill Mastro has been instructed by his attorney to simply not comment. Makes a lot of business sense.<br /><br />Peter

Mastro Auctions Being Investigated by the FBI
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Thanks Peter(and others) for the insights--guess the bottom line is entirely possible the investigation is going on and Doug does not know.<br /><br />Love your all-star game and greatest infield posts--although they are off topic sure that Leon would rather see anything than more posts about card restoration or about Mastro.<br /><br />Jim

Mastro Auctions Being Investigated by the FBI
 

Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>I suppose I've always had problems with what people consider hobby-related. I think of the all-star game as being hobby-related because they started before WWII. A clear definition would be helpful. I suppose there are people who think that this thread is only marginally related to the hobby.<br /><br />Peter

Mastro Auctions Being Investigated by the FBI
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Peter,<br /><br />If I remember correctly the focus of the board is on vintage cards. I personally don't care and just read what I am interested in but I think each of your posts would be considered off topic by Leon.<br /><br />Jim

Mastro Auctions Being Investigated by the FBI
 

Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>What do you think of Leon's point that if there was really an FBI investigation of Mastro Auctions that the president would know about it?? Couldn't investigation be proceeding without knowledge of company?&gt;<br /><br />I find it hard to believe the president and CEO would know nothing about the investigation.<br /><br />Could be Bill Mastro has been instructed by his attorney to simply not comment. Makes a lot of business sense.&gt;<br /><br />Absolutely. I am guesing Bill and Doug Allen have both been instructed to stay mum at this time.<br />

Mastro Auctions Being Investigated by the FBI
 

Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I can speak for myself, thank you. The first 2 sentences at the top of the page say what this forum is about...The farther we stray from that premise the less I like it....warm regards<br /><br /><br />"Hello to all visitors! This is a moderated forum for the discussion of primarily Pre-WWII baseball cards and related topics"<br />

Mastro Auctions Being Investigated by the FBI
 

Posted By: <b>whitehse</b><p>Just a thought but do you think that Mr Mastro is avoiding all of this because he is on his way out of Mastro?? I have been told that he was bought out and is just waiting the final payment and he will no longer be a part of Mastro. This was told to me by someone who should know!! so do you think maybe he is just laying low, getting his money and running like a sissy!!?? <br /><br />Is this old news and maybe I just have not read it somewhere??

Mastro Auctions Being Investigated by the FBI
 

Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>If you are not a reporter, you can give us your source. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Peter

Mastro Auctions Being Investigated by the FBI
 

Posted By: <b>whitehse</b><p>I would rather not say it on the board. I can assure you my source is someone everyone has heard of and someone who should know.<br /><br />I just assumed this was common knowledge. Did I assume wrong?

Mastro Auctions Being Investigated by the FBI
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Peter,<br /><br />Leon says he can speak for himself.<br /><br />Go get em.<br /><br />Jim

Mastro Auctions Being Investigated by the FBI
 

Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>We are all just giving our opinions there is no reason to jump on people for their opinions. Let's remain civil.<br /><br />Peter

Mastro Auctions Being Investigated by the FBI
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Peter,<br /><br />Amen--couldn't agree more.<br /><br />Jim

Mastro Auctions Being Investigated by the FBI
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Leon is wrong when he claimed that Doug's comment about not knowing about a federal investigation equates to the lack of an investigation. A lawsuit would have already been filed by Mastro against the Daily News for libel if no such investigation is underway (in my opinion). Leon, prove you wrong? Should I contact the FBI myself and ask them to make public their investigation? As I said days ago, let Randy Mastro or Doug Allen come on this board and claim that they have not a scintialla of information that an FBI investigation is underway against Mastro. They won't because it would be a lie.<br /><br />All that being said, the only pertinent thing here is that an investigation is underway. If Mastro is cleared then good for them, good for us and we can all breathe a sigh of relief. If not, the chips will fall where they fall. But raising concern about Mastro's involvement in shill bidding due to a pending FBI investigation is not un-American; we're not convicting them -- we're simply expressing our concern considering our own finanical exposures here. That is a normal, prudent thing to do, correct? If Leon was arrested for molesting a child (sorry Leon, just using you as a for instance) would we rush to send our kids over to his house to be babysat? Course not. Would we stand by him and support his legal fight to clear his name? Of course we would. Let's not confuse concern with the current investigation of Mastro with unfairly convicting them before any indictment has been secured.

Mastro Auctions Being Investigated by the FBI
 

Posted By: <b>Brian Weisner</b><p><br /> Hi Jeff,<br /> I'm not a lawyer, but isn't being under investigation totally different than someone being arrested and charged with a crime? Be well Brian

Mastro Auctions Being Investigated by the FBI
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Great post Jeff--thanks.

Mastro Auctions Being Investigated by the FBI
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Brian, of course. That's my point, exactly: I don't think Mastro should be convicted before they're even charged; however, it is certainly prudent to be wary over the allegations of shill bidding.

Mastro Auctions Being Investigated by the FBI
 

Posted By: <b>Corey R. Shanus</b><p>Jeff,<br /><br />Fair enough. But it seems a number of people have moved beyond the "expressing concern" point to the "already convicted" point.

Mastro Auctions Being Investigated by the FBI
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>And then there is the other end of that spectrum....Leon defending them.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

Mastro Auctions Being Investigated by the FBI
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>I don't think anyone is convicting Mastro Auctions--I know I am not. I think Jeff put the proper balance on things. The strongest position as been our moderator vehemently defending the company.

Mastro Auctions Being Investigated by the FBI
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Let's give Leon a chance to respond as soon as he finishes with the Hunt Boston Garters -- I just failed to win the Cobb as the underbidder.....and now I feel sick. Whoever won it please contact me for the chance to visit it. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

Mastro Auctions Being Investigated by the FBI
 

Posted By: <b>Jerry Hrechka</b><p> Until Mastro acknowledges their screw ups and corrects their mistakes I have a tendency to believe the allegations against them.

Mastro Auctions Being Investigated by the FBI
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Jeff- what did the Cobb sell for?<br /><br />And are you joining us next week?

Mastro Auctions Being Investigated by the FBI
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Barry, I bought a new blackberry today and cannot figure out how to use it, hence my lack of responses. Not sure yet about next week but would like to see Brooklyn other than the inside of its courthouses.<br /><br />The Cobb went for just under 100K.

Mastro Auctions Being Investigated by the FBI
 

Posted By: <b>Don Poley</b><p>Hi all-<br /><br />Often (but not always) the party being investigated will receive a "target letter" from the feds putting them on notice of the investigation and ordering them to retain all records, computer files, etc. This also gives the feds additional grounds (obstruction) to go after the target if the party trashes the hard drive, shreds documents, or otherwise impedes the investigation.<br /><br />If Doug's quote about no knowledge of an investigation is correct I think it's too early to surmise that Mastro is a target of the investigation, and the reporter may just be reading tea leaves or he may have an ax to grind with Mastro.<br /><br />Just my two cents.<br /><br />Don

Mastro Auctions Being Investigated by the FBI
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Don, alas I think the days of 'target' and 'subject' letters are a thing of the past. I remember as a young lawyer asking my boss about the difference between the two and being told that one can go from being a subject to a target in the blink of an eye. I can't imagine that the Daily News writer would just invent witnesses who have claimed to have been interviewed by the FBI about Mastro. However, in fairness to Mastro, the fact that this investigation limps along in its plodding manner does not suggest to me that the feds consider Bill Mastro on the level of Bin Laden. I mean, yet. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

Mastro Auctions Being Investigated by the FBI
 

Posted By: <b>David Smith</b><p>When Christies and Sothebys were being investigated, how long did that take??<br /><br /><br />David

Mastro Auctions Being Investigated by the FBI
 

Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>I think I'd be alot more interested if the chief complainer (oh my legalese <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>) wasn't a guy who claims he was ripped off over smudgy/a couple possibly forged/ autos....I mean, who's ever heard of that being a dodgy part of the hobby. And then I fail to see where he mentions that James Spence backs him up on his assertions??? <br /><br />So we have Mastro refusing to listen to his moaning and supply him with underbidder information - well I wouldn't either without some prodding/support from another hobby expert regarding the supposedly falsely advertised lot.<br />And this weenie is the guy who's the chief bitcher in this process, hmmm, thus far I like Mastro the better of the two.<br /><br /><br /><br />JMO.<br /><br />Daniel

Mastro Auctions Being Investigated by the FBI
 

Posted By: <b>Corey R. Shanus</b><p>Not sure what's wrong if someone, be it our moderator or someone else, defends the company. There are enough people blasting the company, so it seems to me if someone defends it this thread might have a bit more balance.<br /><br />From another perspective, as I understand what Jeff says, a reason he introduced the thread was to express concern over the pending investigation, which is germane to those people who bid in their auctions. Inasmuch as Mastro auctions will continue to take place while the investigation lingers, I see nothing wrong with someone in the meantime expressing his views that people have nothing to fear by continuing to bid. Yes, I understand that Leon does get advertising revenue from Mastro so therefore to some his views might be tainted. That is a legitimate point to raise. But Leon has never attempted to hide that fact; therefore no one is being mislead about the potential for bias on his part. One thing about Leon that I have noted over the few years I have been a lurker/participant on this board is that he does seem to call it as he sees it, often being very critical of friends and advertisers. He and I are friends but sometimes he has said things about things I wrote that I felt like picking up the phone and asking him how his thought process was functioning that day. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> I certainly think he deserves the benefit of the doubt that his position here is not tainted by some small amount of advertising revenue.

Mastro Auctions Being Investigated by the FBI
 

Posted By: <b>P Spaeth</b><p>Perhaps there is more to it, but I can't say I am impressed when the sources of charges of shill bidding are a disgruntled dealer in litigation with Mastro who supposedly identified ONE consignor who bid on his own items (based on what?) and someone who won lots with misappropriated state funds.

Mastro Auctions Being Investigated by the FBI
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>I think to judge the allegations and evidence on the merits of two newspaper articles isn't fair. No one here knows what the full allegations are or the evidence. Therefore, to dismiss what has been leaked already is not based on reality. That being said, let the process go forward but just be wary with Mastro.

Mastro Auctions Being Investigated by the FBI
 

Posted By: <b>P Spaeth</b><p>Jeff, thus my initial disclaimer "perhaps there is more to it," my only point being that what is public ain't much.

Mastro Auctions Being Investigated by the FBI
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Peter,<br /><br />You know what I want to say at this point, but I just can't bring myself to say it.

Mastro Auctions Being Investigated by the FBI
 

Posted By: <b>Cat</b><p>I buy a lot from Mastro, but have never consigned an item to them.<br /><br />I always tend to let what I know overrule speculation. We have had many come on this board and declare that they have offered high autobids which ultimately did not reach the maximum. That's very good evidence.<br /><br />As others have said, one disgruntled buyer who declares that "he gave them a name" of someone that bid on his/her own item seems fairly pathetic as a basis for an FBI investigation. Sheeesh, from one standpoint, I hope there is more.

Mastro Auctions Being Investigated by the FBI
 

Posted By: <b>Joe D.</b><p>sorry to hear you missed out on that cobb (sweet card).<br /><br />but... if you take that money over to the Brooklyn burger place next week - I'll sell you something much nicer* <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br /><br /><font color = grey> *Nicer is a subjective term. The above statement is in no way a guarantee of card niceness. The only guarantees in the above statement are brooklyn and burger.</font>

Mastro Auctions Being Investigated by the FBI
 

Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>edited due to anonymity

Mastro Auctions Being Investigated by the FBI
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>You may not be a fan of grading, as are many on the board, but why must the auction house be eliminated? That seems rather extreme.

Mastro Auctions Being Investigated by the FBI
 

Posted By: <b>P Spaeth</b><p>I would eliminate any auction house convicted of taking steroids.

Mastro Auctions Being Investigated by the FBI
 

Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>According to you, how did the grading services create the downfall of the coin hobby?<br /><br />Peter

Mastro Auctions Being Investigated by the FBI
 

Posted By: <b>Scott Elkins</b><p>about Mastro's shill bidding misappropriated state funds. This is true as far as I have read and researched. However, it DOES seem like Bill Mastro knew this at the time and even dealt with this individual DIRECTLY b/c of this fact! Thus, one would conclude that if Mastro did shill bid this person, it was probably b/c he thought he would not get caught (afterall, who was going to tell authorities at the time - the person using misappropriated funds?). I can vouch that I have won a few lots from Mastro over the past year below my max bid. However, I was not dealing directly with Bill Mastro and using funds Mastro seemed to know were being misapprpriated. I would also think there is probably some sort of a law somewhere that makes it illegal to accept funds known to be misappropriated state money. Afterall there are so many laws I don't really know about and I am not about to research it. <br /><br />I agree that we are all suppose to be innocent until proven guilty. However, as everyone here knows, this country does not work that way or people would not be held incarcerated until a court date. We can all speculate here one way or another. My mind was made up last Winter about Mastro Inc.'s ethics when Doug Allen came on this very board and admitted to altering cards before having them graded - you can say they only do a tier or this or that. However, bottom line - it is altering to change the card before grading in order to receive a higher grade!<br /><br />The thing I think that looks REALLY bad on Mastro on this one is the "secret" relationship and bidding process that was going on between Bill Mastro and this person misappropriating funds!

Mastro Auctions Being Investigated by the FBI
 

Posted By: <b>P Spaeth</b><p>Scott, what is your basis for claiming Mr. Mastro knew the individual at issue and knew he was bidding with misappropriated funds? (Apologies if I am misreading your post but I think that is what you are saying?)

Mastro Auctions Being Investigated by the FBI
 

Posted By: <b>Scott Elkins</b><p>that Mastro had a "Secret" relationship. According to what I have read on this, Bill Mastro was the ONLY person who was allowed to take bids from this individual due to the nature of the money involved. I was simply going by what I read.<br /><br />I figured one of you attorneys would ask a question like that - you guys/gals are too easy to predict!<img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

Mastro Auctions Being Investigated by the FBI
 

Posted By: <b>P Spaeth</b><p>Scott since we are so predictable, you know the next question, where did you read that?

Mastro Auctions Being Investigated by the FBI
 

Posted By: <b>JM</b><p>Investigations can go on w/o the president knowing. Ever hear of the ‘get a fish to talk and fry the other bigger fish’ theory? that seems to be how the government operates at times. there may also be ethical walls that prevent X in Mastro knowing what Y in Mastro knows. I worked @ a large law firm that dealt w/large public cos. who were often the subject of FBI and SEC investigations as well as individuals who were often the subject of DOJ, FBI and/or IRS investigations. In more cases than not, X department/people knew of the investigations but Y department/people (who were HIGHER UP than X) did NOT. There were people within that large law firm who knew about Cases A-Z AND people in that same law firm who had NO idea bout Cases A-Z and would NEVER know about them due to ethical walls. <br /><br />There’s also the issue that sometimes the government ‘works behind the scenes’ so to speak. They don’t always come up to you in their nice suits and ties and say ‘hi, would you like to sit and have a chit chat?’ anyone who has dealt w/a government agency (FBI, IRS- 2 of my favs lol) knows that often times, by the time YOU find out about the investigation, they’ve been observing you for quite awhile. Perhaps Doug/other Mastro employees were told NOT to speak out about this matter. Notice mastro’s absence on this thread? Notice the apparent absence of a libel suit against the paper?<br /><br />Btw, it strikes me as hypocritical to bash reporters for ‘hearsay’ yet not bash others for engaging in similar conduct. Why do we accept someone relaying a convo he had w/Doug as being factual/not hearsay yet anything printed in the paper is obviously wrong/hearsay/unworthy of discussion or credence?<br /><br />I have no opinion on the matter other than if the allegations are proven and correct procedure follows, I hope punishments are doled out. If the allegations are not proven, I hope the company’s name will be cleared. Isn’t that what the grand old US of A is all about?<br />

Mastro Auctions Being Investigated by the FBI
 

Posted By: <b>Tom Boblitt</b><p>I'm not a lawyer but I did sleep at a Holiday Inn Express last night.......<br /><br />Those are some HEAVY allegations about Mastro that I'd assume you'd be a little more discreet in doling out. I know people have some strong feelings about ALL the auction houses, but geez.....<br /><br />Seems like statements like yours might be litigatable.....is that a word lawyers?

Mastro Auctions Being Investigated by the FBI
 

Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Please put your full name by your post. If you don't it will be deleted....the policy is say what you want to but put your name by it. It's 1:45 CST...at about 2:30 your post will go poof unless you make yourself fully known. I would ask the same if someone was having issues with you....thanks....leon luckey

Mastro Auctions Being Investigated by the FBI
 

Posted By: <b>P Spaeth</b><p>Litigable, I think.

Mastro Auctions Being Investigated by the FBI
 

Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I am not a lawyer but my conversation with Doug Allen yesterday was first hand. I am sure you are not inferring it was hearsay. I try not to embellish the way Lichtman, Elkins, and Crandall do.....which is reprehensible....

Mastro Auctions Being Investigated by the FBI
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Leon, it's always nice to be described as reprehensible. Thanks for that. I suppose just reporting what was in the paper and providing some analsys is bad? I'll do my best to refrain from that in the future if it involves someone that you do business with.<br /><br />

Mastro Auctions Being Investigated by the FBI
 

Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I thought when you used Mastro and Bin Laden in the same sentence it was pretty low...I think reprehensible is the most positive thing I could say about you. You should be disgraced at the way you have taken this sensationalist journalism and made it fact... warm regards

Mastro Auctions Being Investigated by the FBI
 

Posted By: <b>Scott Elkins</b><p>To be honest, I read about Mastro's relationship with the person from Mike O'Keeffe - I don't have his book here, as I loaned it out, but I even think he mentioned this in his book that a lot of people here dislike.<br /><br />Tom - I KNEW someone would take my post the wrong way - I did NOT make those allegations - I simply read them! Please DO NOT put words in my mouth. <br /><br />Also, YES I do NOT like Mastro Auctions, the same as many of you here do NOT like eBay sellers or others who alter cards! This board DOES have double standards on that issue however, as these nickel and dime ebay con artists are bashed, boycotted, etc. if there is a question with one of their auctions (which is the right thing to do). However, even after hearing first hand from Doug Allen last Winter about Mastro altering cards, some of you on this board try to make excuses for them - ie: Mastro ONLY takes out surface wrinkles, or this and that. This is hypocritical and BS!!! If you change the card, or any other item, to make it appear different than it was before, THIS is altering! Personally, I think a lot goes on at Mastro Auctions that I would not approve of (and many others in the Hobby). I KNOW there are a lot on this board who would like to sweep these things under the table, since it is Mastro Auctions especially. I am one of the minority here - I would LOVE to see ALL of Mastro Auctions' wrong doings brought to light. I am a true collector and don't care what that would do to the value of my PSA 10's (as I have NONE anyway). I know I, and several others, have bought lots from Mastro in the past and present with many trimmed cards in the lot that were not mentioned, but, personally, I think that is small potatoes compared to what is going on behind closed doors. I don't have any evidence of anything and have not even suggested anything in particular as to what is going on behind the closed doors at Mastro Auctions. So, please do not say I said this or that. The only things I have stated here are what Doug Allen stated on this board (about altering cards before having them graded) and what I read from Mike O'Keeffe about the person using misappropriated funds dealing directly with Bill Mastro. Other than these statements, I have NOT mentioned anything else at all about Mastro Auctions. I do know a lot more, but will set back and wait until it comes out. It will be funny to see the excuses some of you will make for Mastro Auctions then!<img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Some of you can try to tear apart and blow out of proportion what I have stated, that is fine. Plese do not expect me to comment further on this, as I am done with it and will watch from the sidelines until the time is right. I have tried in this post to post my thoughts as clearly as possible to avoid questions about what I have typed, as I won't be commenting further on this until it all comes out. Happy Collecting! Scott Elkins

Mastro Auctions Being Investigated by the FBI
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Leon, the Bin Laden reference was a joke. Could it not have been any clearer? Perhaps the smiley face at the end of the joke was a hint.<br /><br />And I have never once claimed anything in the article is anything but an allegation, an investigation. All I did was claim that the article provided sources, on the record, that an FBI investigation of Mastro continues. I cautioned against jumping to conclusions on Mastro's guilt. I simply claimed that as someone who bids in Mastro auctions I would be wary. I never said that no one should bid. I've repeatedly stated that I bid in all of their auctions.<br /><br />Your response is really over the top -- and bizarrely out of character in my estimation. You may also want to review what I previously stated about your integrity. I still believe that and I'll just chalk up your comments to you having a bad day.

Mastro Auctions Being Investigated by the FBI
 

Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>Whether Mastro is being investigated, I believe, is not the big issue. The big issue is the unscrupulous conduct in which a lot of (not all) auction houses take part. Shill bidding; misrepresenting conditions of cards; selling knowingly-altered cards; and refusing to take returns on altered cards; wagering deals with big consignors/buyers; etc. <br /><br />I agree that the allegations of the Mastro/FBI issue are interesting fodder for debate, but let's not lose sight of the bigger issues which seems to pervade the hobby/business.

Mastro Auctions Being Investigated by the FBI
 

Posted By: <b>P Spaeth</b><p>I see no one making excuses for Mastro. I see fair minded people saying let's make judgments based on facts, not (so far anyhow) flimsy insinuations from biased sources. Scott, you claim to have more facts but then you say you won't discuss them. I don't blame you, I wouldn't counsel anyone to make public accusations either, but it comes across as rather smug. EDITED TO ADD This reminds me of the letter reprinted in this thread, we are warning you all sorts of bad stuff is going on, but we aren't going to name names or identify cards. <br /><br />

Mastro Auctions Being Investigated by the FBI
 

Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>"The less information known, the more the perception is the product of the viewer’s imagination."

Mastro Auctions Being Investigated by the FBI
 

Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>If I said you sodomized old ladies and put a smiley face by it would you think it's funny? I am just sick and tired of the anonymous posts for one...and two, for the continued unwarranted attacks on Mastro. If they are being investigated so be it. Like I said I have been investigated many times in my restaurant business. I have never been found guilty as we don't do anything wrong. IF there is an investigation it's worth being talked about. The only place you have seen it reported that there is one is by O'keefe. Do you really think he is a reliable source with all we know? Also, you say you "think" Mastro would sue if it was reported there was an investigation when there isn't. I would argue that Mastro is smart enough to know they live in a glass house and don't throw stones...especially when it will get them no where. I wouldn't waste my time on O'keefe if I were them...It's all negativity..I still think Mastro is one of the absolute premier Auction houses in the world and continue to get better every day. Have they made mistakes before? Sure...and as far as I know all have been handled in a professional courteous way.....nuff said....and yes, I still like you but I am tired of this whole smear campaign especially because it's not fact based....

Mastro Auctions Being Investigated by the FBI
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>How old are these old ladies we're talking about?<br /><br />Having dealt with newspaper writers before, I feel pretty comfortable that O'Keefe would not dare to fabricate an FBI investigation that does not exist. And getting investigated by the Board of Health for having a few roaches in a restaurant is a bit different from having the FBI point a light up your ass.

Mastro Auctions Being Investigated by the FBI
 

Posted By: <b>Tom Boblitt</b><p>I don't remember seeing anywhere that Bill Mastro, as you state, had knowledge that the funds that Noe was using were misappropriated. I think that is a HUGE stretch. If someone ALLEGED that that is the case and you are just repeating it, I guess it's just that....allegations. Seems like if there was that type of evidence, then the case would currently be in court.<br /><br />While I don't always agree with their practices concerning creases or especially what happened with the Keeler cabinet, I would certainly think the allegations you stated above (or re-stated from some source) would be WAY more of a problem than spooning a crease out. <br /><br />I realize you don't want to post further and that's convenient when you drop a bombshell as you did, but if you have links to some type of detailed article alledging that type of knowlege can you post it. You don't have to respond, just post the link. The article outlined in this thread alledges no such thing. If I've missed that verbiage in another linked article, sorry.<br /><br />And I don't really know how they make an article where they have one questionable lot bought by Bill Daniels (a very knowledgable autograph dealer in Indiana) and morph that into this whole Ohio/Noe scandal--which seems to be a legitimate problem--mostly for Noe and Ohio so far.......

Mastro Auctions Being Investigated by the FBI
 

Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>Scott, I'm a zero tolerance fan of altering cards in any way.<br /><br />So, what more can I ask than at least have those participating be willing to admit it? I get to choose then to buy or not buy cards from those parties. Mastro admitting such activity was not a terrible action, it was actually quite ethical to the hobby. If an ebay seller lists his actions similarly and openly I certainly won't lambaste him - though be disappointed at the loss of hobby stock in untainted condition....I think most on this board would similary be happy to know openly about such alterations. Then with the issue in the open and not merely breathy whispers, hobbyists actually get the opportunity to change such practice - and I actually believe that can happen if the general consensus was to do so.<br />That's one big bogy man down.<br /><br />And your second point relates to an O'Keefe story and single disenchanted voice.....<br />Lousy evidence for me if you compare posts by collectors on this thread, who state very clearly their inability to do that very thing being alleged, shill up their own consignment.<br /><br />If you look at the idea itself, it's so damn problematic to sometimes shill, sometimes not. I mean, how do you decide? When so many items close for one or two bids over opening, why don't they shill those? If it's big ticket items that so often go ballistic right at the death, how do they know whether early shilling or late shilling makes any sense? Do you shill to make yourself an extra 50K revenue in a 12 million dollar auction over just a few items and hope no-one notices, risking all for relative pittance, or shill systematically on everything so you can fleece your nest with gold? Then, do they shill with or without the knowledge of the seller? You would have to presume with, it would be hard to explain the non-sale of items otherwise, and if so with all the big time collectors on this board - is it really possible NONE would have turned them in for this activity? Not one guy or gal who'd had the idea suggested to them by Mastro would have ever mentioned anything.......??<br /><br />Anything is possible I guess, and many of my cherished dreams have been dashed by unscrupulous examples of human frailty, but boy, this would make a stupid mess of itself for a hobby giant and money making machine, and yet another unlikely chapter in gross soul-lessness.<br /><br />Wouldn't you be more comfortable believing the worst on the word of some genuine hobbyists you knew and trusted?<br /><br /><br />Daniel<br /><br /><br />Edited for spelling.

Mastro Auctions Being Investigated by the FBI
 

Posted By: <b>Tom Boblitt</b><p>After Jeff's post and allegations, are you completely comfortable that that was fried OKRA you were eating?

Mastro Auctions Being Investigated by the FBI
 

Posted By: <b>Joe D.</b><p>"How old are these old ladies we're talking about?"<br /><br /><br />that may be the funniest comeback in a tense exchange that I have ever seen posted.<br /><br />LOL - that was great.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />as an aside...<br />I vote to lock this thread up. JMHO.

Mastro Auctions Being Investigated by the FBI
 

Posted By: <b>Tom Boblitt</b><p>Give it till 9pm EST or some time and then put the smackdown on it......<br /><br />