|
T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection?
Posted By: <b>RayB</b><p><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1151364181.JPG"> <br /><br />RayB
|
T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection?
Posted By: <b>J Hull</b><p>& here's a P350.<br /> <br /> <br /><img src="http://www.jimonym.com/R.JPG">
|
T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection?
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>BRIAN W<br /><br />I only have two Ritchey cards and they both are P150.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.freephotoserver.com/v001/tedzan/aritchey.jpg">
|
T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection?
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>BRIAN W<br /><br />Claude Ritchey is another one of those T206 players whose career ended as the<br />1st Series of T206 cards were being issued. He played in only 30 games in 1909<br />and that was it for his 13 year Major Lge. career.<br /><br />Is your "350" card a Piedmont....as is J Hull's Ritchey..?<br /><br />And, your 350 card has a very interesting "blue sky effect". It looks like a large<br /> white dove in flight. I have never seen that before.<br /><br />T-Rex Ted
|
T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection?
Posted By: <b>Lee Behrens</b><p>My Ritchey is a Piedmont 350 with the dove in the sky. will post a scan when i get one.<br /><br />Lee
|
T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection?
Posted By: <b>Brian Weisner</b><p> Hi Ted,<br /> I have been collecting and observing Ritchey cards for about 5 years now, and have come to the conclusion that 99% of the 150 cards show no dove in the clouds, and the few that do look more like faint clouds than a dove. The 350's on the other hand, contain the extra blue and the extra clouds and "dove" 99% of the time. I believe this change was made by design and may help with the timeline of product distribution.<br /> To date all of the Ritchey's with EPDG back look the same as the 150 cards:<br /> <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1151432994.JPG"> <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1151433041.JPG"> <br /><br /><br />While all of the Old Mill's look like 350 cards: Except Piedmont<br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1151433530.JPG"> <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1151433668.JPG"> <br /><br /><br /><br />I'll try to post a few more scans and some raw data on the number of cards sometime after dinner. Heading to a meeting Brian
|
T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection?
Posted By: <b>J Hull</b><p>Nice observation, Brian. (keep them coming)<br />Beyond the interesting issues of timing and sequence, it raises the question of how/why the "dove" is visible. I don't know an awful lot about printing techniques, but one thing that I notice looking at the scans is that it seems like there's a layer of dark blue ink on the "dove" card that isn't there on the "normal" version. On the P350 I listed, the registration's slightly off left to right, and the ink color used for the sky is clearly sky blue (seen up and down the overlapped left edge). The sky blue over yellow creates the green "grass" in the background.<br />Your "dove" card's registration is off enough top to bottom and left to right to show a separate layer of dark blue over the sky blue base layer. It's also particularly and obviously visible on Ritchey's elbow. <br />That dark blue ink definitely strikes me as change in the production/printing process and not as any kind of freak printing occurrence.<br /> <br />Jamie
|
T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection?
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>BRIAN W.<br /><br />This is great stuff.....I just love it. Now, how do we get Forum members to<br />show their Ritchey cards ?<br /><br />Brian.....I'm afraid we have reached "Forum Fatigue" on this Thread. I've received<br />two emails that leads me to say this. While two emails do not represent the 70+<br /> majority of members (unique responses), I didn't appreciate their tone.<br /><br />Anyhow.....Let's see what developes.....Onward Ho !<br /><br />
|
T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection?
Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>...for best thread ever. Easily the one I have found most interesting from the get-go.
|
T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection?
Posted By: <b>Brian Weisner</b><p> Hi Ted,<br /> It's "Date night", so I won't be in until later, but maybe you should start a new thread, "show me your Ritchey" and we'll go from there. I may have to send you some scans to post, because I'm running out of room. Talk to you tonight Brian<br /><br /><br />PS Good news, bad news. I picked up a Jones 350 today(Piedmont of course), so he's another possible 150 that bites the dust. <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1151440280.JPG"> <img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1151440306.JPG">
|
T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection?
Posted By: <b>Dustan Hedlin</b><p>My Schulte front view is also a Piedmont 150, if you're still taking a count.
|
T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection?
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>Brian W.<br /><br />This was expected by me. It only serves to reinforce my confidence in my "Piedmont-1st"<br /> theory. The next to go will probably be Ewing.<br /><br />Lindaman is by far the "mystery man" to me.<br /><br />To quote Jackie Gleason.....Brian...."You are the Greatest" ! !<br /><br />Ted Z
|
T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection?
Posted By: <b>barry arnold</b><p>Brian W et al<br /><br />the pics are a fascinating tributary that somehow take us right back into the main flow of discussion.<br />many thanks.<br /><br />best,<br /><br /><br />barry
|
T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection?
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>Updated 6/27/06<br /><br />Those of us who like to get down to the "nitty-gritty" of the T206 Monster<br />really appreciate all this data from at least 80 Forum posters and six Forum<br />"readers" who have not only contributed their inputs, but also their time in<br />the process.<br /><br />After sampling 500+ cards in this survey, we have reduced the possibility of<br /> additional cards that could have appeared in the 150-only Series (besides<br />the known 10) to the following 4 cards....Ames....Doyle....Ewing....Lindaman.<br /><br />PLAYER.................350........HINDU.......EPD G........150<br /><br />Ames (Hds/chest).....0............2..............0.......... ...30<br /><br />Doyle (throw)...........0............3..............0... ..........26<br /><br />Ewing.....................0.............2........ ......3.............24<br /><br />Jones (St Louis).......1.............5..............2....... ......27<br /><br />Lindaman................0............10.......... ....6.............35<br /><br />Jordan (port)...........3.............0..............0... ...........10<br /><br />Spencer..................1.............2......... .....1..............12<br /><br />Schulte (Cubs).........1.............5..............0..... .........42<br /><br />This in no way is meant to be a conclusive study at this point, as more data is needed. <br />
|
T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection?
Posted By: <b>daryle</b><p>Out of around 75-100 T206s I have 1 (Abbaticchio). Have had 2 Lenox backs but only EPDG.
|
T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection?
Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>This is the thread that doesn't end... and it goes on and on my friend. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>
|
T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection?
Posted By: <b>Jordan And Company</b><p>i dont have any T206's YET but im getting some soon so ill answer your question when i get my T206's
|
T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection?
Posted By: <b>barry arnold</b><p>Thanks, Daryle.<br />It looks like your epdg count is around 1% of your 206's which is where most folks who contributed fell. <br />Please provide Ted Z. any information you may have on the cards he is surveying (cf. the entry right before yours on this thread).<br />also please provide pics of 206 Ritchey for Brian W.'s new thread for <br />research data purposes.<br /><br />again, many thanks<br /><br />best,<br /><br />barry
|
T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection?
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p><br />Updated 6/28/06<br /><br />Those of us who like to get down to the "nitty-gritty" of the T206 Monster<br />really appreciate all this data from at least 80 Forum posters and six Forum<br />"readers" who have not only contributed their inputs, but also their time in<br />the process.<br /><br />After sampling 500+ cards in this survey, we have reduced the possibility of<br />additional cards that could have appeared in the 150-only Series (besides<br />the known 10) to the following 4 cards....Ames....Doyle....Ewing....Lindaman.<br /><br />PLAYER.................350........HINDU.......EPD G........150<br /><br />Ames (Hds/chest).....0............2..............0.......... ...31<br /><br />Doyle (throw)...........0............3..............0... ..........27<br /><br />Ewing.....................0.............2........ ......3.............24<br /><br />Jones (St Louis).......1.............5..............2....... ......28<br /><br />Lindaman................0............10.......... ....6.............36<br /><br />Jordan (port)...........3.............0..............0... ...........10<br /><br />Spencer..................1.............2......... .....1..............12<br /><br />Schulte (Cubs).........1.............5..............0..... .........45<br /><br />This in no way is meant to be a conclusive study at this point, as more data is needed <br />
|
T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection?
Posted By: <b>Scot Reader</b><p><br />Brian,<br /><br />LOVE the DOVE !!! If it is an intended design variation rather than a printing error, I would say that you have discovered a new T206 subject. Should we call it "Ritchey (With Dove)" or "Ritchey (With Clouds)"?<br /><br />Also, thanks for confirmation of Jones (St. Louis) in Piedmont 350.<br /><br />Scot
|
T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection?
Posted By: <b>Brian Weisner</b><p><br /> Hi Scot, <br /> I do believe the printers intended the Dove to be visible in the cloud's, because one of Boston's nicknames was the "Doves". I guess it didn't work out to well in the first run so they added the dark blue in the second run to bring out the image. <br /> I was hoping someone would pick up on the dove nickname when they saw the cards, but it took until today for someone to notice. JOGGERDRU emailed me about it a few hours ago. <br /><br /> Be well Brian<br />
|
T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection?
Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Hey now, you guys need just stop this baseball card talk. You are about pass up the Bonds/steroid thread :-p<br /><br />Jay<br><br>Growing old is not optional, growing up is.
|
T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection?
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>Jay B<br /><br />Can it be possible that a Net54 Thread such as this can run 262 posts......<br />staying on topic......devoid of people bashing......and at the same time be<br />very informative (to us T206 "nuts")......and at least somewhat interesting<br /> to those who are not as serious about these cards ? ?<br /><br />T-Rex Ted
|
T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection?
Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Ted, I love seeing a thread like this. I'm just having a little fun because the thread has gone on for so long without degenerating. This IS the heart and soul of what this board is all about. Sadly, the threads that dengenerate are ones that always get the most run and this thread proven to be the exception. A very good exception that we need more of.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>Growing old is not optional, growing up is.
|
T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection?
Posted By: <b>barry arnold</b><p>Scot R. , Brian W.<br /><br />My vote is for Ritchey(with dove)for variation designation.<br /><br />great work, brian!<br /><br />best,<br /><br />barry<br /><br />p.s. trex and jay---heart and soul, yes!!! collegiality, yes!!!
|
T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection?
Posted By: <b>Scot Reader</b><p><br />Hey Gents,<br /><br />In case somebody hasn't already mentioned it, there was a Ritchey (With Dove) Sweet Caporal 350/30 in the recent REA auction. Great photos at:<br /><br /><a href="http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/site/bidplace.aspx?itemid=3765" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.robertedwardauctions.com/site/bidplace.aspx?itemid=3765</a> <br /><br />More confirmation that Ritchey (With Dove) is a distinct subject and that Old Mill (which typically appears with the dove) is a 350 series back!<br /><br />Scot<br /><br /><br /><br />
|
T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection?
Posted By: <b>Brian Weisner</b><p> Hi Scot,<br /> Here's another Old Mill dove photo I forgot I had:<br /><br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1151625428.JPG"> <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />My study includes 7 Old Mills all with Dove, and 4-5 EPDG without a dove.
|
T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection?
Posted By: <b>Joe Brennan</b><p>Sorry I'm so late with my reply, but better late than never I guess. I have 122 T206's. 1 El P back. I sold a few raw cards about 3 months ago and I think I sold 2 El P backs, but they were pretty rough. <br /> Out of the 122 cards I have 1 El P, 1 American Beauty and 1 Tolsoi. <br />Old Mill, Polar Bear, Piedmont and Sweet Cap round out the rest of the backs. Joe<br><br>A scared man can't gamble and a jealous man can't work.
|
T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection?
Posted By: <b>Scot Reader</b><p><br /><br />My suspicion is that Ritchey appears WITH dove in Sweet Cap 350 and Old Mill and appears WITHOUT dove in Hindu, EPDG, Piedmont 150, Sovereign 150 and Sweet Cap 150. (I have never seen Ritchey in Sovereign 350--he may not even exist with that back.)<br /><br />Whether Ritchey appears with or without dove in Piedmont 350 will be telling on Ted's "primacy of Piedmont" theory--if he appears WITHOUT dove in Piedmont 350 it will be very supportive of Ted's theory since it would strongly suggest that Piedmont 350 was printed BEFORE Old Mill and Sweet Cap 350.<br /><br />Brian--I hope you realize the magnitude of your discovery. Apparently, nobody else figured this out (or at least made it public) for almost a century!
|
T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection?
Posted By: <b>Dan Koochin</b><p>I'll say with EPDG its no Dove (1st assorted)<br />Piedmont 350 (2nd, without dove, and with dove (corrected) <br />Sweet Cap 350 with Dove.<br /><br />Theoretical timeline <br />Aug. 1909 Hindu Assorted/350<br />Sept. 1909 EPDG Assorted/350<br />Sept. 1909 Piedmont 350 (mirrors EPDG) low print run<br /><br />After that (theoretical dates anyone?)<br />Sweet Cap 350<br />Corrected Piedmont 350 (Ritchie w. Dove)<br />Old Mill<br /><br />(Am I a risk taker or what!)<br /><br /><br /> <br /><br /><br /><br />
|
T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection?
Posted By: <b>barry arnold</b><p>Joe B.<br /><br />many thanks for the data. Your epdg holdings indicate a little less that<br />1% of epdg relative to your total 206 holdings which continues to fall in<br />line with previous data received.<br /><br />thanks scot for underscoring the major import of Brian's findings re:<br />Ritchey; hearing the word discovery is particularly exciting!!<br />why did you wait so long to bring it out in the open, Brian?!!!<br /><br />all the best,<br /><br />barry<br />
|
T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection?
Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>Here is mine. As you can see, it is a Piedmont 350. I don't think it undermines Ted's Piedmont Primacy Theory if all 350's have the dove.<br />JimB<br /><br /><img src="http://img439.imageshack.us/img439/3895/t206richteyfront2jc.jpg"> <img src="http://img302.imageshack.us/img302/5303/t206richteyback2du.jpg">
|
T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection?
Posted By: <b>scott brockelman</b><p>There is a marked difference in the print registration and color qualities of all 150 and 350 series cards. After seeing many of them you can pick out the 350 series from the 150's by the fronts only. To think that this is an intentional "dove" is far fetched, it is only the different print/color run of the 350 series in my opinion.<br /><br />Scott
|
T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection?
Posted By: <b>Tom Boblitt</b><p>out of 476 in the set I just sold in REA. Abbott of Toledo........<br />
|
T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection?
Posted By: <b>barry arnold</b><p>tom b.,<br />many thanks for the epdg data.<br />here we're looking at less than 1% (in fact, around one tenth of one percent)<br />epdg relative to the total of nearly 500 206's. still it can be seen as <br />corroborative of our typical 1% figure.<br />it must have been hard to let go of such a great collection, Tom, but <br />congratulations on the sell via REA.<br /><br />Please respond to ted and Brian W.'s queries, if you haven't already.<br /><br />best,<br /><br />barry
|
T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection?
Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>I missed before that J Hull has a P350 Ritchey without the dove. So P350 is seen both ways. Theorists?<br />JimB
|
T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection?
Posted By: <b>Elliot</b><p>I'm with Scott B., I don't think it's a deliberate variation by the printers, rather just a different print run. I think what's interesting is the confirmation of the "Piedmont Primacy" theory as so far we've only seen the 150 Ritchey print run front on 150's and 2 350's, both Piedmont, but no other 350 backs. We should continue this research on other cards that had multiple front print runs and see whether or not it is only on Piedmont 350's where the earlier front is found.
|
T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection?
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>I was closely looking over my set and was going to post, but I think Elliott just<br />succintly conveyed my thoughts before I did. Anyhow, here is my "take" for<br />whatever it is worth.....perhaps a penny or two.<br /><br />Since I have my T206's "segregated" in my album according to Series (150, 350, 460),<br /> it becomes more evident. And, my observation is that the American Lithograph Co.<br />was a lot more creative with BLUE INK in the printing of the 2nd Series (350) cards.<br />Have you guys ever compared Kid Elberfeld (NY) with his Washington portrait card ?<br /><br />The NY portrait (initially in the 150 Series) has the "Kid" with Brown eyes and the<br />and the tougher Washington portrait (350 Series-only) has the Kid with BLUE eyes.<br /><br />I am just having my wake-up coffee; and, I will post scans on these two cards to<br />show this subtle difference. And, there are more examples of this in the 2nd Series.<br /> And, of course the Ritchey card is probably the most outstanding example of this.<br />Kudos to you, Brian W, for bringing this to our attention.<br /><br />T-Rex Ted<br />
|
T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection?
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>To follow up my prior post....note the color difference in the Kid's eyes on these two<br /> cards. I have observed many of the Kid's Washington portrait and they all have Blue<br /> eyes.....this blue color is consistent on every card.<br /><br /><img src="http://www.freephotoserver.com/v001/tedzan/e.jpg"><br /><br />I realize my scan does not show a distinct (or clear) difference. Sorry, about this; but, please compare your actual cards and you will clearly see the Blue eyes in the Washington version.<br /><br />In the meantime, I will try to come up with more examples of the "blue enhancement" on 2nd Series cards.
|
T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection?
Posted By: <b>J Hull</b><p>This thread gets better and better.<br />Great find, Ted.<br /> <br />Elliot and Scott B, I know with a thread this size it's almost impossible to see every post let alone remember them, but I made the argument some ways back that the "dove" variation is the result of an additional layer of ink being used that was not being used on the earlier "non-dove" version. Of course, the chromolithography used to produce the T206s required a new printing plate (or stone) for each color. I've been hoping that someone would posit a theory as to why an additional plate was introduced to the process for Ritchey somewhat midstream (apparently at least part ways through the P350 print run). Are there any brave souls out there who care to hazard a guess?<br /> <br />Btw, if we're looking for changes in blue ink, we should also keep in mind that green was created by overlaying layers of yellow and blue ink, so there may be changes to the color green as well.<br /> <br />Jamie
|
T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection?
Posted By: <b>Tom Boblitt</b><p>so Barry doesn't get me.......<br /><br />From the near set I just sold in REA.......<br />Ames.....P150<br />Doyle(throw).....P350<br />Ewing.....SC150<br />Jones(St.L).....P150<br />Lindaman.....SC150<br />Lundgren(Chi).....P150<br />Schulte(Chi).....P150<br /><br />One 350.......Doyle(throwing)<br /><br />
|
T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection?
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>Thanks Tom B<br /><br />OK, with Tom's input of Doyle (throwing) with a PIEDMONT 350 back, we are now left<br />with the following still standing as possible 150-only candidates......<br /><br />Ames (hands at chest)<br />Ewing<br />Lindaman<br /><br />
|
T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection?
Posted By: <b>Scot Reader</b><p>The order of color application for T206 was:<br /><br />Yellow<br />Black<br />Brown<br />Blue<br />Dark Green<br />Red<br /><br />Ritchey with and without the dove has dark green and red. So one thing for sure is that Ritchey without the dove isn't the mere result of failure to complete all stages of the colorization process, such as, for example, Sweeney (Boston) missing red ink.<br /><br />The question then in my mind is whether (a) there was a conscious attempt to add an extra layer of blue in the 350 series to create the dove image in the sky, or (b) the dove was there all along in the 150 series and is just more pronounced in the 350 series. If (a) then I would say Ritchey (With Dove) is a legitimate design variation possibly worthy of separate checklisting. If (b) then I would say it is just another run-of-the-(old) mill color variation. (I recognize others dispute that it is even a dove--which is a another question).<br /><br />So I am interested in seeing Ritcheys in 150 that have the putative dove, however faint. Does anybody have one they can show-off?<br /><br />Scot
|
T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection?
Posted By: <b>Mike (18colt)</b><p>Had a thought about the EPDG population.<br /><br />IF estimates of the total number of T206 cards in existance today number say, one million cards, and if based on the research on this thread roughly 1% of cards are found with an EPDG back, then by doing the math one could conclude then that there are about 10,000 T206 cards floating around in the world with an EPDG back (note - as stated, based on an assumed million card population). IF the estimate of total T206s in existance sounds reasonable, the number of EPDG backed cards doesn't sound like they'd be that hard to locate (as opposed to Drum backs, where it's likely under 100 exist).<br /><br />Plus, if we go on the 10,000 cards with EPDG estimate, and for the sake of easy mental math we use 200 as the number of subjects possible with this back, then there could be around 50 of each subject with this back still floating around (again, easy math using 200 and not the actual amount).<br /><br />So, in terms of total cards available, EPDG sounds plentiful. In terms of total cards per subject (front pose), acquiring one of each would prove difficult.<br /><br />Just my two cents.<br /><br />Mike (18colt)<br /><br />PS: One thought about the primacy theory that bugs me -- explaining the Wagner, which is mostly Sweet Caporal (this was noted earlier in the thread by another poster but not commented/responded to). Perhaps Wagner is an example of some odd marketing technique copied today by the shiny card makers (Piedmont is most prevalent, and if a collector wanted them all, they'd have to branch out to other brands to increase the likelihood of getting Honus).<br />
|
T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection?
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>Scot R<br /><br />Upon very close observation of my two Ritchey cards (150 Series and are shown in prior<br /> post here). I see a very vague pattern in the sky background; that, I think with blue or<br /> green color enhancement could yield the "clouds or dove" pattern we are seeing on the<br /> 350 versions of Ritchey.<br /><br />If one "sectionalizes" their T206 set, as I have, you will see a dramatic difference in<br />the BLUE backgrounds. Of the 153 cards of my Piedmont 150 Series (which are Blue<br /> backgrounds) all have a Pale Blue coloring. The one possible exception is the Rube<br />Waddell portrait, of which I have 4 examples. Two 150 and two 350 and both the 350<br />are a deep Blue, while one of the 150 is a pale Blue and the one in my set is a deep<br />Blue. To finally acquire a Deep Blue Waddell (P150) I must have gone thru a dozen.<br /><br />Now, as you proceed thru my T206 album into the 350 section you immediately notice<br />the deeper Blue colors. Chase portrait is one of the 1st that strikes your attention with<br />its rich deep Blue background. And, this brighter and richer Blue coloring continues thru<br /> the Minor Leaguers (except the Southern Lge. cards which do not have any deep Blue).<br />And, finally the 460-only section continues with the deeper Blue coloring. <br />
|
T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection?
Posted By: <b>Brian Weisner</b><p><br /> Hi Mike,<br /> I don't have enough time to go through all of your well thought out post, but I will say a word or two about Wagner. <br /> About 75% of the known Wagners have come from in and around the NY/ Philly area which had a much higher concentration of immigrants who preferred the Sweet Caporal brand for it's turkish blend, while Piedmont's were more popular in the South and Midwestern portions of the country. I don't have any knowledge of the Sovereign brands popularity, but do know that isn't wasn't anywhere near the big 2. And as for Hindu, it was only distributed in very few southern states mainly Louisiana, and Texas. Be back Brian
|
T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection?
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>Mike and Brian W.<br /><br />Brian's explanation is very true and if I recall correctly 2 of the Sweet Caporal<br />Factories were based in NY.<br /><br /> And, don't forget the most significant copy of the Wagner card (Gretzky-Gidwitz,<br />et al) originally came from Long Island, New York.<br /><br />T-Rex Ted
|
T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection?
Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>
|
T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection?
Posted By: <b>RayB</b><p>I find myself visiting this thread on almost a daily basis as the suppositions continue.<br />The depth of this Board members T-206 collections and knowledge makes it supremely possible to chat about the sets idiosyncracies with such focus.<br /><br />Scot - I can't wait for the second print run of your manuscript and your analysis of the myriad of conclusions supposed here.<br /><br />As an owner of a now 1/3 complete T-206 set this has been a great ride thus far for me.<br /><br />Thanks guys.<br />RayB
|
T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection?
Posted By: <b>Scot Reader</b><p><br />Ted,<br /><br />Thanks for your response to my query. I suspect I will eventually wind-up in the camp that believes the color/sky differences between Ritchey 150 and Ritchey 350 are just a matter of degree, not kind. The original point made by Brian (I believe) that Ritchey Old Mill always (at least as far as we know) appears with the dove and that this suggests a 350 series print start for Old Mill is still very useful. This conforms with the fact that (at least as far as we know) 150-only subjects cannot be found with Old Mill. It will also be interesting to find-out what the breakdown between dove v. no dove for Ritchey Piedmont 350 is since that will be telling on your primacy of Piedmont theory. Rest assured that I will be tracking Ritcheys on ebay in the coming months.<br /><br />Now, let's find those Ames (Hands at Chest), Ewing and Lindaman 350s (if they exist)!<br /><br />Scot
|
T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection?
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>Updated 6/30/06<br /><br />Those of us who like to get down to the "nitty-gritty" of the T206 Monster really<br />appreciate all this data from at least 80 Forum posters and eight Forum "readers", <br />all of whom have not only contributed their inputs, but also their time in the process.<br /><br />Ten cards....M. Brown (Cubs), Geo Brown (Chi), Burch (bat), Donlin (hands-knees),<br />Evers (blue sky), Pattee, Pelty (horiz), Powers, Reulbach (Cubs) and Honus Wagner<br />are recognized as being in the 150-only Series; and therefore, are much tougher T206<br />cards than most others.<br /><br />In this Thread we have considered several more T206's to be in this category. After<br />sampling 500+ cards in this survey, we have reduced the potential candidates down<br /> to the following 3 cards....Ames (hands/chest)....Ewing....Lindaman. <br /> <br /><br /><br />PLAYER.................350........HINDU.......EPD G........150<br /><br />Ames (Hds/chest).....0............2..............0.......... ...32<br /><br />Doyle (throw)...........1............3..............0... ..........27<br /><br />Ewing.....................0.............2........ ......3.............25<br /><br />Jones (St Louis).......1.............5..............2....... ......29<br /><br />Lindaman................0............10.......... ....6.............37<br /><br />Jordan (port)...........3.............0..............0... ...........10<br /><br />Spencer..................1.............2......... .....1..............12<br /><br />Schulte (Cubs).........1.............5..............0..... .........46<br /><br />This in no way is meant to be a conclusive study at this point, as more data is needed
|
T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection?
Posted By: <b>barry arnold</b><p>Ted Z.<br /><br />many thanks for all the attention to the details of the various arguments presented.<br />your 'sectionalizing' argument re: the 150 to 350 color change is most illuminative.although i don't have the pied 150 waddell, i note that my Waddell portrait sc 150 fact 30 exhibits one of the<br />deepest blues of any of my cards, no matter what the series. I note that you mention that you have one of four pied 150's that exhibits similarly. My <br />Waddell even presents with a deeper blue than my Chase pied 350 portrait.<br />What does the exceptionality of the blue coloring of the Waddell in your<br />Pied 150 portrait say about the argument that there is a deepening of the<br />blue color from series to series? Also does this impact your argument regarding color enhancement in the 350 series which gives rise to the clarity of the dove---so that we're saying as Scot does in a recent post that we're perhaps dealing with a matter of degree rather than of kind.<br />Is the Waddell significant?<br /><br />thanks for the help.<br />and the fabulous ride.<br /><br />best,<br />barry<br />
|
T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection?
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>OK guys, remember that song....who sang it, and what was the year ?<br /><br />BARRY A.<br /><br />At the risk of repeating myself....unless you have your T206 cards (or set) divided<br />up by Series, it is difficult to appreciate the difference in the Blue coloring between<br /> the cards printed in the 150 Series vs the 350 or 460 Series.<br /><br />The difference in the Ritchey cards on display in this Thread made me to take a better<br />look at my set, and I noticed the Light or Pale Blue coloring among the 153 cards in<br /> the 150 Series. Then, I started noting a stark contrast in the Blue coloring in the<br /> subsequent two series. The Waddell (portrait) is the only card that has a deep Blue<br /> color in the 150 Series. I cannot explain why, perhaps it is an anamoly.<br /><br />American Litho. must have changed printers or acquired a richer quality of Blue ink<br /> when they started printing the 350 Series (and 460) cards. Some notable examples<br />of cards with a deep Blue color are Chase, Chase (dk cap), Chase (trophy), Clymer,<br />Groom, Knabe, Livingstone, Matty (dk cap), Nattress, Speaker, Thielmann, etc.<br /><br />And, my point of all this, is that the sky affect we are seeing in the Ritchey card is<br />just the result of a difference in the printing process with respect to the application<br />of the Blue ink in the "350" cards. And, not a re-designed sky with clouds. And, until<br />we see a Ritchey with a 150 back with the "clouds in the sky", I think this "Bluer ink"<br /> explanation is valid. <br /><br />
|
T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection?
Posted By: <b>barry arnold</b><p>Ted Z.<br />an emendation:<br />Blue on Blue, heartache on heartache--Bobby Vinton, the Paleolithic era <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br />now trex ted and herbivore barry really makes sense!!!<br /><br />thanks for the clarification of the coloring trajectory---<br />and for indicating the anomaly status of the Waddell portrait.<br /><br />happy fourth of July weekend<br /><br />barry
|
T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection?
Posted By: <b>Brian Weisner</b><p> Hi Ted,<br /> Here you go.... Piedmont 150 back...<br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1151782344.JPG">
|
T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection?
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>BRIAN W.<br /><br />I am back....and not surprised to see your P150 Ritchey with the "cloud effect".<br /><br />As I noted in an earlier post (6/30 1:43 PM) on this thread (in response to Scot<br />Reader's query)....the potential for the cloud effect has always been there, and<br />whether it appears or not, is simply a combination of two factors, the quality of<br /> the white cardboard and the quality of Blue ink in the printing process.<br /><br />Anyhow, we have allowed ourselves to be distracted from the very important<br />point that you were trying to make with your initial posts of your Ritchey<br />cards......when the EPDG backs were introduced.<br /><br />Can we conclude that the EPDG cards were concurrent with some of the 150 Series<br />cards, or did the EPDG cards immediately follow them into the 350 Series ?
|
T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection?
Posted By: <b>Brian Weisner</b><p><br /> Hi Ted,<br /> I hope you had a great vacation... Now, back to cards.<br /><br />I don't mean to be a pain, but in your earlier post you state:<br /><br />"And, until<br />we see a Ritchey with a 150 back with the "clouds in the sky", I think this "Bluer ink"<br />explanation is valid."<br /> Then I show you one and you continue to suggest it was merely ink or a paper stock problem. I'm not a printing expert, but I do know that you can't create the dove/cloud effect on the 150 or 350 card without a viod or pattern that would keep the ink from covering the entire area. If these dove/cloud's were in different places I might agree with you, but they aren't.I don't disagree that the added darker blue color of the 350 series will make the Dove/Cloud more visible, but adding dark blue to the existing colors would not create the dove/cloud. To create the same pattern of the cloud or dove in the same exact position on the card had to be done by design, not by the quality of the stock, or ink. <br /><br /><br />Ok, back to EPDG vs Old Mill. It appears from the very limited sample of less than 10 of each card that the EPDG cards have the 150 look, while all of the Old Mill's have the 350 look. That along with the fact, that none of the 150/350 short printed cards we have been tracking have been seen with Old Mill back would lead me to assume that Old Mill's were released with or shortly before the 350 series. <br /> EPDG backs, on the other hand have been seen with several of the short printed 150/350 cards, so they must have been printed shortly after the 150 and before the 350. <br /><br /> Personally, I don't think the ATC had any idea how popular the promotion would become and added brands as it became apparent that there customers enjoyed the cards as much as the smokes. Otherwise, how do we have so many of them almost a hundred years later.<br /> Happy 4th to all Brian
|
T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection?
Posted By: <b>John Spencer</b><p>I only have one EPDG out of about 100 T206's, but it is a good one: Cobb red background PSA 7. As all Spanish speakers would know, El Principe de Gales translates to the Prince of Wales, as in the Queen of England's first born,Charles (Chuck) Windsor.
|
T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection?
Posted By: <b>barry arnold</b><p>John,<br /><br />many thanks for the epdg data. You easily fall into the 1% category that appears to be 'the standard', with your 1 out of 100 t206's.<br />congrats on the 7 Cobb with epdg!<br /><br />happy 4th everyone<br /><br />best,<br /><br />barry<br />
|
T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection?
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>BRIAN W.<br /><br />Your not being a pain.....I went out on a limb with that explanation....and now I<br /> am on the ground. It was a soft landing, though, no problem.<br /><br />At this point I think we all are mystified by this Claude Ritchey "sky" phenomena.<br />But, you got to give it to us, sooner or later we will "flush-out" any mysterious card.<br />However, we haven't seen those "350" cards of Ames, Ewing, or Lindaman....yet ?<br /><br />Anyhow, I will stick to my "150 Pale Blue......350/460 Deep Blue" theory. There is a<br />definite distinction in these colors between Series. The T206 guys were not "skimpy"<br /> with the Blue ink when they printed the 350/460 Series cards; as they were when<br /> they printed the 150 Series cards.<br /><br />I am still not certain where we stand on the EPDG introduction, since your initial<br />example of a Ritchey (EPDG) card without the "sky effect" was to be considered<br />a 150 benchmark. But, then doesn't the appearance of a P150 Ritchey muck-up<br /> your above argument ?
|
T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection?
Posted By: <b>Brian Weisner</b><p><br /> Hi Ted,<br /> This is post number 300 on this thread, give us a few more days and we'll catch Barry.....<br /><br />I will post some more info on the "ink theory" a little later, and explain why I believe the EPDG evidence still suggest an earlier print date than the Old Mills. Talk to you soon. <br /><br /><br /> Happy 4th of July. Be well Brian
|
T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection?
Posted By: <b>brian p</b><p>Being way too busy to try and catch up with this 300 post thread, I will just respond to the original post and hope someone still cares. Of the over 300 T206 cards I own, I have 4 EPDG backed cards:<br /><br />Covaleskie--Philadelphia<br />Turner-Cleveland<br />Sharpe--Newark<br />Schlafy--Newark<br /><br />By the way, I collected my T206 purposely trying to avoid the less common backs, as I was more interested in the fronts, and the rarer backs meant extra expenditure, but still ended up with four.<br /><br />......<br /><br />Now that I have had a chance to 'scan' through some of the other posts, maybe I will get back with what backs I have for those 8 cards being tracked.<br /><br />Brian
|
T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection?
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>BRIAN P.<br /><br />Yes we are still interested in your inputs on your T206 backs. You did better<br />than most with your EPDG backs.....4 out of 300 = 1.33 %....not bad.<br /><br />Here are the cards we are still most interested in......<br /><br />Ames (hands at chest)<br /><br />Dahlen (Boston)<br /><br />Doyle (throwing)<br /><br />Durham<br /><br />Ewing<br /><br />Lindaman<br /><br />Lundgren (Cubs)<br /><br />Schulte (front - Cubs)<br /><br /><br />Thanks, Ted Z
|
T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection?
Posted By: <b>Brian Weisner</b><p><br /> Hi Ted,<br /> Going to Pinehurst in the AM. Talk to you on Sunday night. Be well Brian
|
T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection?
Posted By: <b>barry arnold</b><p>Ted Z.<br /><br />many thanks for keeping track of so much data---i've been vacationing a wee bit and finally back<br />at the university.<br /> <br />i notice ole Brian W. is going out of town again---is he still doing Fuller Brush. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />i'm eager to see what happens with ames,ewing, and lindaman<br /><br />all the best,<br /><br />barry
|
T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection?
Posted By: <b>brian p</b><p>Of the eight cards Ted & Co. are interested in, I have six:<br /><br />Ames-hands at chest Piedmont 150<br />Dahlen-Boston Sweet Caporal 150<br />Durham Piedmont 150<br />Doyle Piedmont 150<br />Ewing Piedmont 150<br />Schulte-Cubs on uniform Piedmont 150<br /><br /><br />Brian<br />
|
T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection?
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p> <br />Updated 7/7/06<br /><br />Those of us who like to get down to the "nitty-gritty" of the T206 Monster really<br />appreciate all this data from at least 80 Forum posters and eight Forum "readers", <br />all of whom have not only contributed their inputs, but also their time in the process.<br /><br />Ten cards....M. Brown (Cubs), Geo Brown (Chi), Burch (bat), Donlin (hands-knees),<br />Evers (blue sky), Pattee, Pelty (horiz), Powers, Reulbach (Cubs) and Honus Wagner<br />are recognized as being in the 150-only Series; and therefore, are much tougher T206<br />cards than most others.<br /><br />In this Thread we have considered several more T206's to be in this category. After<br />sampling 500+ cards in this survey, we have reduced the potential candidates down<br />to the following 3 cards....Ames (hands/chest)....Ewing....Lindaman.<br /><br />NOTE....I've added to the list Durham, simply because I just acquired my 1st P350 card<br />of him. Durham is one tough card, and all 22 cards I have seen of him have been 150's.<br /><br /> I am curious what backs are on your Durham cards ? <br /><br /><br /><br />PLAYER.................350........HINDU.......EPD G........150<br /><br />Ames (Hds/chest).....0............2..............0.......... ...33<br /><br />Doyle (throw)...........1............3..............0... ..........28<br /><br />Durham...................2............0.......... ....0..............12<br /><br />Ewing.....................0.............2........ ......3.............26<br /><br />Jones (St Louis).......1.............5..............2....... ......30<br /><br />Lindaman................0............10.......... ....6.............38<br /><br />Jordan (port)...........3.............0..............0... ...........11<br /><br />Spencer..................1.............2......... .....1..............13<br /><br />Schulte (Cubs).........1.............5..............0..... .........47 <br />
|
T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection?
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>Scot Reader<br /><br />I am expanding my "Piedmont-only" set to include all the cards we have surveyed in this Thread<br />that we have initially considered as "new" possible 150-only cards; but, have eventually appeared<br /> also as P350 (exclusively).....Durham, Tom Jones, Lundgren, Schulte, etc.<br /><br />I will scan thru this Thread and compile a list of these particular cards; however, I would feel more<br />confident if I could derive this list from your data and analysis. Is it possible that you could furnish<br />me such a list. This Durham card that I just acquired prompted me to expand my set further, as this<br />card recalled that your data revealed one P350 Durham from 26 samples. I found this really amazing<br />as it closely coincided with my 22 (+ this P350) samples of Durham in 25 years of looking at T206's.<br /><br />Thanks much for whatever info you can provide me.....Ted Z <br /><br /><img src="http://www.freephotoserver.com/v001/tedzan/bdurham.jpg">
|
T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection?
Posted By: <b>Tom Boblitt</b><p>P150.......
|
T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection?
Posted By: <b>Scot Reader</b><p><br />Hi Ted,<br />I just sent you my survey data; please check your email. As far as the seven potential 150-onlys from my data are concerned [Ames (Hands at Chest), Doyle (Throwing), Ewing, Jones (St. Louis), Lindaman, Lundgren (Chicago), Schulte (Front View)], I have only "scratched" Jones (St. Louis) and Lundgren (Chicago) conclusively. I know others on this thread have spoken of Doyle (Throwing) and Schulte (Front View) with a Piedmont 350 back, but no scans have been forthcoming on those so far. I don't mean to attack anyone's credibility but memories fade with time and mistakes are possible.<br />Scot
|
T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection?
Posted By: <b>Nathan</b><p><br />If you guys are still keeping track - I have a Luther Dummy Taylor EPDG back. It's still the only one graded by SGC. <br /><br />Nathan<br />
|
T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection?
Posted By: <b>barry arnold</b><p>many thanks, nathan<br /><br />it would help to know the total number of your 206's so we can get some idea<br />of the ratio of epdg's to the total.<br /><br />all the best,<br /><br />barry
|
T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection?
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>OK.....Guys and Gals.....Now that Leon has declared that we should get back "ON-TOPIC",<br />let's continue more "meaningful" Vintage Threads that add to our knowledge of this hobby.<br />Rather, than ones that just stir up divisive controversy among us.<br /><br />THANK YOU....LEON....for finally locking that thread.....I hope you threw away the key.<br /><br />T-Rex Ted
|
T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection?
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>Updated 7/17/06....a few more inputs from "readers" are added here.<br /><br />It appears as if we have "mined" all the available inputs from members,<br />so perhaps, this is the final tally to be posted. It was a great run......<br />a very big....Thanks....for all who have contributed to this survey. <br /><br />PLAYER.................350........HINDU.......EPD G..........150<br /><br />Ames (Hds/chest).....0............2..............0.......... ...34<br /><br />Doyle (throw)...........1............3..............0... ..........29<br /><br />Durham...................2............0.......... ....0..............14<br /><br />Ewing.....................0.............2........ ......3.............28<br /><br />Jones (St Louis).......1.............5..............2....... ......31<br /><br />Lindaman................0............10.......... ....7.............39<br /><br />Jordan (port)...........3.............0..............0... ...........11<br /><br />Spencer..................1.............2......... .....1..............14<br /><br />Schulte (Cubs).........1.............5..............0..... .........51 <br />
|
T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection?
Posted By: <b>E. Angyal</b><p>Did you get my e-mail spreadsheet?<br /><br />Eric
|
T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection?
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>A powerful storm came thru the other night and our email system is down.<br /><br />I will certainly check-out your spread-sheet when service returns.<br /><br />Thanx, Ted Z
|
T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection?
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>OK guys....Let's get "Meaningful"....instead of "Physical" (Olivia Newt John).<br /><br />I came across a Burch (batting) T206 with a brown HINDU back. There aren't too<br /> many of these 150-only cards with HINDU backs....in fact they are "scarcer than<br /> hen's teeth".<br />Here again is the list of the 9 cards in the set that are 150-only, which can pos-<br />sibly be found with HINDU backs....<br /><br />150-only card................HINDU<br /><br />Geo.Brown (Chicago).........1<br /><br />M.Brown (Cubs)................1<br /><br />Burch (batting).................1<br /><br />Donlin (fldg).....................2<br /><br />Evers (blue sky)................1<br /><br />Pattee.............................0<br /><br />Pelty (horiz).....................1<br /><br />Powers............................1<br /><br />Reulbach (Cubs)................2<br /><br /><br /><br />Check your cards again and let's have your inputs....but, I do not expect too many<br />....as I said they are very scarce.<br /><br />T-Rex Ted<br /><br />
|
T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection?
Posted By: <b>barry arnold</b><p>Interesting idea, TRex.<br /><br />Glad to see the research going again!<br /><br />My Reulbach is a Hindu.<br /><br />all the best,<br /><br />barry
|
T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection?
Posted By: <b>Brian Weisner</b><p><br /> Hi Ted,<br /> I have seen all 9 cards with Hindu backs and I have the following 7 :<br />G. Brown<br />M. Brown Cubs<br />Donlin<br />Evers Blue Sky<br />Powers<br />Pelty<br />Reulbach<br /><br /><br /> I should have all 9, but got out Sniped on a nice VG/ex Patee and a sharp PSA 4 of Burch.<br /><br /><br /> Be well Brian <br /><br />
|
T206 EPDG- - - how rare in your collection?
Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>Thanks Barry and Brian for your inputs.<br /><br />Brian....I knew you would have most of them.<br /><br />Barry....You will be interested in knowing that a possible EPDG back exists<br />with one of these cards; and, I am trying to track it down. This will be very<br />unusual.<br /><br />Ted
|
| All times are GMT -6. The time now is 10:21 AM. |