I don't doubt all of us feel the same way. But I do wonder if that's because we have an emotional investment and it's very important to us. There's a lot of crime out there though. It's hard to know what's important to someone else.

What does legitimate provenance mean? I would think it means not stolen but I guess not since the next part says unconcerned about the legality. I also find it hard to believe that people would be willing to pay more for stolen cards if they could get something equivalent for less in an auction. Makes no sense.

I tend to think whatever was stolen, if you're talking a million or more in value, law enforcement would take it pretty seriously.

I admit to being a natural skeptic but if you're a cop and a guy is telling you he's had two million dollars in baseball cards stolen, I don't know what the reaction is.

I know how I would react because I like cards. But if you replaced two million dollars worth of baseball cards with two million dollars worth of my beer can collection, you may feel a different sense of urgency.

That's what I was getting at. I don't know how important it is to anyone who is in a position to help. I would hope it's as important to them as it is to the hobby but I honestly don't know.

It appears that the theft of Memory Lane cards was taken pretty seriously. I'm not sure why this theft would be different.

Well for one, I'm not sure the seriousness but there was a limited amount of people who had access to the fed ex package..kind narrowed it down to what 10 people? I don't think there are even 25 employees at the best Western. Sheer luck aka stupidity, it was one of them. They knew who was working that day and time. Doesn't take Monk to solve that one.

It's a jungle out there

Every time I check this thread when new posts appear, (like everyone else, I assume) the only thing I am ever hoping to (finally) see is, "THE F*CKERS HAVE BEEN CAUGHT!!!"

Everything else is just noise (no offense to anyone). :(

And yes, I do realize that since this very post refreshes the thread again, it also rightfully gets thrown onto the heaped up pile of 'noise,' too.

AMEN! And they will be!

C’mon now 😐

Since we are entering the phase of rampant speculation I would put in my two cents and say these guys are Mexican cartel. I would have thought authorities would have them by now and with facial recognition technology they should know who this guy is.

Then again it took them 5 days to catch the Tsarnsev bros in a situation with a few parallels although one non-parallel is that the bombing was a much bigger crime and the manhunt resources were significantly bigger. That said we are ten years down the road of technology and I still feel like this will break by the weekend.

The Tsarnaevs were caught (at least initially, as one escaped) because their kidnap victim escaped, immediately called 911, and alerted the police to their location and plans which they had shared.

Peter, we know you would not do anything like that.

It's been a few days now since the police have issued any update. At least there should be a,"There are several people of interest" (duh.)

Is there anyone on here who works in insurance? And if so, how will something like this get resolved? Somebody on here did mention that the reward was put up by the insurance company - is this true? Also, what's going to happen when they review all the videos showing the theft? Are they not going to be asking the same kinds of questions people on here have been asking? Why didn't you do this or that, etc. What if they decide to only pay a small percentage of the stolen collection or nothing at all? Is this likely to happen considering the amount of money involved and what about lawsuits? I don't know anything about collectibles insurance and so that's why I am asking.

Hope they could get fingerprints off those chairs.

This question has been asked for years and unfortunately, still haven’t had an a reliable answer. I asked the same think IRT the memory lane issue and never heard. I believe there are still two missing cards from that theft, so the insurance claim may have happened.

As with all insurance questions, it turns on the coverage you have bought and specific policy terms. In high level generalities, I would not expect that arguable negligence by the sellers in breaking down their booth would bar their claim for property loss. They would sue whatever insurance carrier they have and also bring in any other insurance policy conceivably reachable (facility, security company, etc.) Unless the insurance policy sets forth specific conditions that these guys were required to do and did not comply, my gut tells me eventually they would recover the fair value of everything stolen (up to the policy limits).

If the policy says you need to have bonded security guys etc. and such requirements were not adhered to, that's an issue. Some one like Scott might have a better feel for what policies like these generally say.

Just curious - if you had $2M in cash, would you leave it out of your sight at a show? Ok, lets drop that, if you had $1M in cash, would you leave it out of your sight at a show? One more time - if you had $.5M in cash, would you leave it out of your sight at a show?

Overall, it's a crappy experience for the seller. I bet that doesn't happen to him again. It's one thing if the security at the event allows material to be stolen overnight, but this is not what occurred. The good news is that the venue appears to have a lot of cameras up and captured good video. Sad to say that perhaps that should be a consideration for larger shows.

The insurance company will always do whatever it can do to pay as little as possible for a would-be claim unless it turns into a public relations nightmare for them in which case their risk management people will get involved and they will determine the path forward that results in the best possible outcome for them. The fact that this is a high profile issue that is getting public attention might be beneficial to Ashsh in a would-be claim.

In a former life as a DJ, we would have a long chain lock spread over multiple record case handles in the booth/stage to make an opportunistic theft less opportunistic.

It's kinda like how back in the day when binders were more common at card shows some dealers would wrap rope or chain around the display table through the center of the binder clips.

It's not 100%, but it's a lot more secure.

Cards are incredibly liquid (new cards in and out of inventory lightening fast via sale and trade at each show). This could increase business value by tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars (the National)) in real time. A house, car, or boat are less liquid (in aggregate-no one dealer is going to sell hundreds of these a day like cards). And unlike most card deals, these assets come with a P&S Agreement and Title. How are prolific card business underwritten and insured? Cards have exploded as a very valuable asset class and the past few years in particular cards have skyrocket in value. So in aggregate are more valuable than ever. So a good takeaway for sellers would be to review and understand current insurance policies, or secure new coverage. It’s a travesty when cards (people’s property and livelihood they’ve put time, talent and money into) are stolen and very good people’s lives are upended due to other people’s lust and greed. Hopefully dealers out there are taking necessary measures. As a buyer, I’d be happy to provide ID, photograph, etc. to put dealer’s minds at ease. Thanks for listening to my TedTalk.

As a buyer, I’d be happy to provide ID, photograph, etc. to put dealer’s minds at ease. Thanks for listening to my TedTalk

So would I Ted.. I would gladly provide picture id at all shows.

Way back when I was doing shows, the usual form of protection once the show closed was a sheet thrown over your table and a couple of chairs piled up on top of them to make it even more difficult to steal something. Those were the days........

as for the card albums, I know of people who had entire albums stolen from their tables in the day.

As for this story it has made the national news and then some. Both my wife and mother-in-law (who lives with us) asked me separately last night about this theft. Using the standard of if someone not in theh obby knows you are or a situation this quialifies

There are really good photos of the miscreants, and for the the insurance almost all of the cards are graded which is a great help in stopping any discussion with them not wanting to pay you

And yes, I do have experience in that subject as I chatted many times back in the day with insurance companies wanting to get some background on values claimed

Some were easy to verify but others like if the person claimed ALL their 1950's cards were mint was enough for me to tell the company -- not a chance every card (and they were all raw in those days) is mint

I also had a fascinating experience with an FBI agent once about a different situation and let me tell you how good they were in getting the person they were after.

This is expensive enoiugh the feds will be involved.


Rich

If they were smart and had patience, they would crack all of the cards out of their slabs to negate their cert numbers and hold onto them for a couple years and possibly the culprits do not live in Texas where the search is being centered. At least it would be fairly easy to identify the cards even if they were cracked out and raw based on their high end condition and individual appearances. Not that buyers and grading companies would be that proactive to try and take their own time in possibly identifying any of them. Or, maybe they are just collectors and have no plans to sell them...ha! The perps also didnt take much thought or effort in disguising themselves in any way. Not the brightest bunch.
Hopefully they are all found soon and the card thieves get whats coming to them.

More footage of one of the thieves
 

I think having footage exposed, of the thieves, is a good thing. If there are enough clips maybe we make a new thread about it...

https://www.facebook.com/reel/7800783823371049

Dallas Card Show posted on Instragram some more videos and if they find more will add to that.

Rich

I guess I should sign up for Facebook sometime .
This video shows a much clearer clip than the grainy versions I’ve seen (@35seconds)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZLWeWPYNywo
This shows the thief walking out with the case (about 10 steps) at the one minute mark
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JAQC1pUNcM

[QUOTE=Leon;2446598]Same way you eat an elephant. One bite at a time. /QUOTE] Don't tell me, tastes like chicken?

As a cop, the best advice I could give would be to plaster their pictures over the local news. Surely someone who watched the news knows one of them. And I would repeat the process in another couple days or so...

It's getting a lot of local news air time. Last night one of the major channels did a whole segment on it. And this kind of stuff is on other local channels too..

https://www.fox4news.com/news/dallas...heft-trackdown

It's getting a lot of local news air time.

Excellent

For those who questioned how seriously this was being taken by law enforcement, this was in the article:

"The Dallas FBI is assisting Allen Police with the investigation because it is considered a federal crime."

This is a moronic crime. The chances of the perps being caught has got to be very close if not 100%.

I agree! The video of the theft is amazing.

In insurance lingo, this was a theft rather than a robbery, where violence or threats violence are directed at the policyholder. The policy would be some type of all risk personal property floater, perhaps manuscript to fit Ash's needs, subject to normal policy exclusions, eg. war nuclear etc. It should respond and pay his claim less any deductible. But, as Steve pointed out, if the policy is endorsed by stating security must be on the floor during setup and breakdown, then there might be a problem.
You can bet that the insurer has top knot loss adjusters working with the police or alone to solve this tragedy.

Top knot? Sounds like the name of a yacht lol.

And the policy likely would be a specific collectibles dealer policy, not some general loss policy, IMO.

It's both impressive and scary that our whole lives are being watched listened to and recorded now.

I agree I just hope it is sooner than later.

In situations like this, I have no issues with it.

Pretty sure this is a Jeremiah Johnson reference:

https://getyarn.io/yarn-clip/dbfd289...2-1d0da6ff1c84

Well, there's hope yet. Police in Springfield, Oregon have recovered more than 4,000 stolen LEGO sets worth more than $200,000 in a massive bust following a three-month investigation. --- Brian Powell

Yep, warning against being scalped, in the real sense, not in the sports ticket sense.

According to this article the police searched for fingerprints and are utilizing facial recognition software.

https://www.cbssports.com/mlb/news/b...las-card-show/

I remember those days. And there would usually be a security guard walking up and down the aisles, although, since he didn't always know who was working at which tables, I always wondered how effective that really was.

But even then, we took the really valuable stuff back to the motel with us.

I remember dealer Alan Rosen would carry a gun at all times. :eek:

I wish I had a yacht named Top Knot.
You are right, the policy would be a specialized manuscript one rather than a run-of-the-mill property policy. I have forgotten the name of the group/agent that many here have used (Collectors Insurance?). I'm sure they have a special tailor-made policy for collectors and dealers.

Well, that's what happened to Ash.

Personally, I don't care about the surveillance devices (license plate readers, video cameras, facial recognition). I look at it as a way for law enforcement to catch perps of crimes and hopefully put'em away.

All the tech is one reason I think these knuckleheads will be caught, then it'll be each of them rolling over on each other. All you can do is hope they get time and a cell mate named Bubba that likes guys...

I don’t see them in this thread yet, so adding the pictures of the thief at the show on Saturday that Ash posted on twitter. Just in case anyone has Saturday photos that contain this person -

And the material was so high end and such, U would hope if they tried to move it at the National or something it'd fail.

Hypothetically, I'd think cracking them out is the best bet to sel them. But, that has the loophole that many dealers, and rightfully so, wouldn't even think of buying such high end items unless they WERE GRADED

With the technology available today, I still don't understand why so many surveillance photos are still so grainy.

In theory though how hard would it be to crack them out, sit on them for a year and grade them a little bit at a time? None of these cards are going to lose their value a year from now, they're that exceptional.

They won't have the patience to do that. Plus, it would be keeping the loot that would incriminate them. They'll want to turn these fast and wash their hands of the cards.

The investigators just haven't tried clicking the "enhance" button like they do in tv shows and movies.

LOL.

Seriously, facial recognition technology is mostly trash still. Especially at the level of resolution we're looking at here. Maybe narrows the pool a bit, but that's about it.

It's hard enough making a match when you have a clear hi-resolution shot to match up against another clear hi-resolution shot.

Just look at the guy on here that reverse Google image searches random old-timey photos to claim they are Cy Young, Joe Jackson, Cap Anson, Josh Gibson, Jim Thorpe, etc., etc., etc...

Maybe they get lucky and get a hit on one of the look-outs with the hats, and they turn on the bag man with the big hat, glasses, facial hair and blurry tattoos.

I think it's going to have to be just good old fashioned following the trail of evidence and hoping somebody f*%ks up along the way.

Haha, why is it everybody wants to reward Bubba the Sexual Predator with more fresh meat, in cases like this?

:eek:

I've long held to the adage that, "there is no honor among thieves." These likely aren't the most loyal, or brightest cretins in the world. So, it would only take, say, a no restrictions / six figure enticement and a LE grant of total immunity to get just one of these perps to flip on his cohorts. Now, who among you, will be first to pony up? Sure, it would be nice to recover all the cards, but the primary goal has to be taking these dolts off the street, incarcerating them and away from future card shows. Crime doesn't, or shouldn't pay. But sometimes allowances need to be made to achieve higher objectives. With any luck, promulgating this offer in the media quite possibly could get all the perps to indiscreetly flip on each other.

:p - Now that's funny!

Those "photos" are pictures of a screen and zoomed in. I guarantee the original footage is a lot better than what's posted here.

OK, then why haven't they been posted everywhere?

I have not yet seen any comments about how to ID the thieves, so consider that the blue shirt and definitely the cammo hat guys are probably “gym rats”. You would think there is extensive footwork by the authorities going to gyms.

Theft
 

I keep watching this thread hoping to read that these Thieves are caught and
prosecuted and the cards returned. I had one transaction with Asai at the Philly show a few Months Ago and he was very accommodating.
I hope it all ends well for him.

John P

On the insurance issue, I'e been on both sides of the table (representing insurers and representing insureds).

The alpha and omega is what the policy says. If there is a specific condition required, it better be in there in black and white or the ambiguity goes against the insurer. For example, I represented the insured on a first-party burglary claim where there insurer denied the claim because the policy required a working burglar alarm at the property. Well, it had one but it wasn't turned on at the time. The insurer (mis)interpreted the policy to require that the alarm be armed at the time of the burglary. If the policy in this case does not require a specific security measure at the time of the theft, it is not a part of the insurance contract, period.

Now, on the flip side, if the loss is big and the circumstances are 'dumbass' or worse in terms of the insured's conduct, the insurer may call in its own attorneys to conduct an "examination under oath" (EUO) of the insured and any other related parties, like employees. The EUO functions like a deposition and the insured may be required to cough up documentation related to the costs of the stolen items as well as the insured's own financial condition. Failure to cooperate may be cause to reject the claim. The insurer will look especially hard at the finances of the insured to see whether there is a financial motive for a fraud case. Actually voiding a policy for fraud is rare but knocking down a claim for lack of proof is not.

Assuming that there is no evidence of fraud and no solid basis to refuse the claim for non-compliance with policy terms, the real action revolves around valuation of the loss. Most of what was stolen is readily valued since it is slabbed mainstream stuff, but there may be some battles on the periphery over whether a card is deserving of a premium for some reason (eye appeal etc.).

Hope this answers some questions.

Is it an implied condition of any policy that the insured not act negligently? Or only if the policy says so expressly?

That's how attorneys make money, if the insured walked away and left 2 million unattended would seem a valid argument against paying.

If?

Gross negligence maybe. Ordinary negligence, I would say no.

The policy would pay as it covers theft under an all risk manuscript policy, which Ash surely has. And, of course, the insurer cannot subrogate for failing to mind his case. You cannot subrogate against your own policy holder.
Also, I ponder why the perps seemingly oblivious to the show's cameras, knowing they were being recorded, their disguises, like the goatee and tattoos, maybe.
I really thought there would be a quick arrest. This heist was carefully planned.

I am of the opinion these folks know that their fingerprints and photo images are not in any US database or anywhere else for that matter, thus no concern for handling objects without gloves or trying to hide their faces.

In short, they and the cards might be in Bulgaria right now as I type this.

Mexico was my thought as I posted, it was sort of a hypothetical at the time but maybe it's what actually happened?

Who collects baseball cards in Bulgaria?

Rich people

That I can't answer.

Bulgarians?

A wake up call, were all vulnerable
 

A Wake up call--Were all vulnerable -- A dealer friend deals in coins--he recently attended a coin show in St Louis. He was only there to buy and purchased $51,000 in gold coins. Some criminals saw him purchasing. He left and stopped at a restaurant on his way home. The criminals followed him and broke into his car while he was dining. They even put a spike under his car tire if he had took his briefcase with him. They punched out the door lock, and got the briefcase. He might have lost his life had they rob him down the road.

Would have thought the announcement of perps arrested, cards recovered would have happened by now. Of course, we don't know what's happening behind the scenes.

I wouldn't be buying gold out in public like that in the first place.