By the strict definition it is not in its original state.
I have only ever pressed corners with my finger and used to use spit to rub stuff off of cards haha. I haven't even used panty hose for wax stains. I hvae also not gotten a single card graded in my life.
Yet this debate has gotten silly.

My personal view is "altering" in the sense we speak about it in the card world is trimming, adding color, adding paper from a donor card.

There are two different definitions of altered here. For TPG, altered means trimming, adding color, rebuilding corners, etc.

Every card that hasn’t had those things done to it is unaltered, so both of the Ted Williams cards above. By the literal definition, the one with the stain is obviously more altered from its original state, and I see zero problem with getting rid of something like that to make it more like its original state.

As a buyer, I could not care less how much something was cleaned as long as it was not altered in the way described initially. Actually that’s not even accurate, since I love buying cards graded Authentic-Altered because they are still original and look nicer than most 4s but can be had for a fraction of the price

So what? Why do you care? Honestly. What difference does it make if people want to improve their cards? Just substitute "cards" with any other noun in your sentence above and I think you'll see why most people laugh or at least roll their eyes at that viewpoint. In general, people want to improve the condition of just about anything and everything. People make money improving things in pretty much all walks of life. This is completely normal behavior. Again, you're the crazy guy screaming at clouds.

AA cards have their own pricing spectrum. They can sell for less than a 1 or as much as a nice 3 or a low end 4. It just depends on what's wrong with the card and how it presents. They can also be cracked out and resubmitted for a second opinion. Graders get it wrong quite often. If you learn how to grade cards and detect alterations yourself, you can often find great deals on unaltered cards that mistakenly made their way into AA slabs.

If soaking half of a card in a cup of coffee doesn't meet your criteria, then what are we even talking about anymore?

Damage and alteration are not the same thing.


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Only if you use the longstanding hobby meaning of "altered," which Travis is not using.

From PSA.

The term altered may mean that the card shows evidence of one or more of the following: trimming, recoloring, restoration, and/or cleaning.

Sorry, my contrarian friend, it's the one on the right that's altered, not the one on the left.

Now the cleaning may well be acceptable depending on how it was done, but that's another issue.

Well, I think we care because if we have nice cards preserved in their original state, we are concerned their value may be diluted by a deluge of reconstituted Robocop cards.

"Shows evidence of cleaning" and having been cleaned are not the same thing.

You could say the same, probably, about any of those categories, but you are missing the point. The hobby defines alteration as intentional changes made to improve the appearance of cards. The card on the left is not altered. A card handled by kids that picked up wear is not altered.

But what if we actually all have Robocop cards that we mistakenly believe to be nice cards preserved in their original state and are concerned that their value may be diluted by a deluge of other Robocop cards?

Then why does PSA consider a card that was stored in a screwdown holder to be altered?

And why don't they consider a card that was soaked to remove glue and paper from a scrapbook to be altered?

This is my point. Their definitions are completely arbitrary. What is it that we actually care about?

As I said earlier, with the Socratic method you can show that virtually any definition or distinction does not hold up perfectly. I think the second one is probably an exception due to long established, well settled tradition. I don't know how to explain the first.

+ the Socratic is about conceptual and fluid terms, like "justice", not redefining a clearly known word or pretending it does not mean what it has been widely used to mean. The Socratic doesn't pick apart every word ever used. If an argument hinges on pretending a word means the opposite of what the word has been commonly used to mean for decades, it is not a logical argument.

I like baseball cards. [emoji851]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...cced394607.jpg


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Gorgeous card, my friend!

The 55 Topps Aaron is one of the most beautiful cards of the 50s

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No doubt! Where ya been, Neal?

Nice card. What is altered about it?

That is a nice Hank Aaron. Not to be a snob but I like mine perfectly centered and in Gem Mint condition like my Hank Aaron or I just throw them in the garbage. Maybe if I used a little bit of Kurts magic spray on the slight imperfection on the bottom left corner my Aaron would be perfect.

Then the concern would be exactly the same. Whatever improved cards that exist in the current supply would be devalued, too, as more improved cards are added.



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Exactly. And the hobby may take a path where provenance will be even important. In other words, a card with Black Swamp Find ( which was likely not to be altered)on its label will be worth more than a PSA 10 with Steve Aoki on its flip. Chain of custody could gain importance. For example Lionel Carter allowed Mastro and SGC slab his cards before consigning them. The fact that both Mastro and SGC have “ dirty hands” could affect the value of the cards. BTW, this is already done to a lesser extent whereby cards owned by known card doctors are shunned/ devalued.

Paper loss and tape on the back. I wasn't even considering the tape "alteration" when I sent it in; I suppose if I had been more forward thinking I could have removed it and still gotten a 1.


https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...8739d1f97f.jpg


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Nice! Kurt might have a bit of a challenge working on that, LOL.

Perhaps ironically, the TPGs do not give Altered slabs for tape. There must be something else they didn't like.

You know, I didn't think so. I sent it in thinking it had a fair chance to come back a 1 - but didn't really care as it's a PC card, and more than anything else I just wanted it in the SGC slab for looks. (I bought this raw a few years back for like $120 on ebay. Thought the front and image presented nicely for the price).

It's not color or trimming, because each of those are now noted separately on the flip with SGC. So I have no clue.

I think it has to do with the tape because it looks like the tape has been lifted and put back down. The print in that area is now misaligned and it ends up looking like paper separation that has been reattached by tape. That’s my assessment, anyway.


https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...b343ca6d53.jpg

Yeah, that was kind of my assessment - even if by their standards SGC technically got it "wrong." The tape and that paper loss on the back is obviously the major flaw, so if it's something else it would be surprising. I do look over all of the cards I submit with a blacklight before I package them up, and found nothing else obvious / suspicious on this one.

This is why I buy these kind of cards sometimes - the real value difference here is likely negligible whether it's a 1 or an AA - as eye appeal is going to be a bigger factor here than the number on the flip.

The 55 Aaron is a great card.
What what I have heard is that old tape is one thing that Kurt or nobody else can get off. Someone posted on a thread before about a restoration service "Gone with the stain." They do a lot of this kind of stuff.

I actually reached out to them about a card I would not ever sell, my Aaron rookie that I got from my folks for Christmas as a teen. It was obviously taped in a scrapbook on the corders/edges at some point. So you can see partial tape on the front. He said there was nothing he could do with that and it would peel the card to remove, likely tearing surface off.

I just considered doing that one because it looks so good other than the tape. Yet in some ways I am glad to leave "as is" because of the memory associated with it. Looks to me like someone made an attempt at peeling it and quickly put it back on when they saw what was happening.
Chris

I love how I am supposed to think it is stupid and harms no one to tweak corners, press out creases, etc.

I would like feedback on how this is all perfectly wonderful and acceptable from the innocent buyers of what they thought were kosher cards that were exposed on BODA and the card lost most of it's value overnight and has a scarlet letter for the life of google search. Especially those that received no compensation, or realized their PSA number is sandwiched between a pile of identified cards in submissions and have to look at a previously loved card with a sideways eye they spent their full savings on?

The video that started this thread is honestly the most innocent Kurt's has posted, the others are majority pure alterations. To say misrepresentation hurts no one is silly, if they were labeled as authentic or authentic altered, I wouldn't care nor have reason to. The truth is when items are misrepresented and overpaid for, there are real victims. They lose real money if/when these cards are exposed.

Honestly this would normally make me pissed, it now just makes me sad. Well, as long as some people make money ya know...all good.

"Gone With The Stain", and Dick Towle - it's now deceased founder - have been around for decades. From all accounts, they can get stains of all types and tape and album residue off cards and make them look like nothing ever happened. I would not assume that their methods are as "natural" as Kurt's Card Care claims theirs are. I think it's mostly harsh chemicals that are used, but supposedly it gets the job done.

For what it is worth there are also noted accounts of collectors who say that GWTS ruined their cards trying to get whatever offending material off of them. Not sure what happens in those cases. I'm guessing you have to submit a disclosure to not hold them accountable before they will work on your cards.

I don't think the exposure the card with PSA cert# 00000001 has had any back lash, has it? :p

Sorry for my ignorance, what is BODA?

Most of what I've seen on BODA involves cards that were later photo matched showing obvious trimming, color work, or something permanent to that effect. The most glaring I've ever seen were the JSA fake vintage autos on prewar in SGC slabs, and then photos obviously of the exact same cards sans signature. I'm not sure if those were part of the same outing on BODA, but the methods used to show before / after were similar.

Whether you find Kurt and his methods harmless or think it's outright alteration - the truth again at least to this point is that his work / methods would seem to be difficult to detect afterwards. Cards that have been touched using his methods routinely make it through all the reputable TPG's without issue. Again I would say that grading is not the yardstick for many, and especially here - to conclude that a card has not been altered. But the truth is in the hobby for a lot of the rest of folks it is, whether we like it or not.

I wouldn't think you are stupid for not concluding that cards subjected to these methods were not harmed, anymore than I would hope others would not find me stupid for not being able to tell which card is the one with a fixed corner from Kurt's spray 10 minutes later, searching through a pile. There may be a way to do this, but I haven't found it yet.

BODA stands for "Blowout Detective Agency", the person and group members that have been identifying and cataloguing the hundreds/likely thousands of high dollar doctored cards in the hobby. It has identified many of the key players for information on the grading scandals.

Any doctored cards on this site usually were posted there first.

Thankfully the people who think altering items and selling them without any honest disclosure and under the guise of being unaltered (though they can never explain why the deception is necessary if it does not matter and no one cares) are still just a very vocal and motivated minority in vintage. On the plus side it gives a good list of names not to buy from or sell to for those that don't want to be party to the fraud and/or misrepresentation.

And I would bet my life the cards they were able to specifically find are a tiny fraction of the actual number of doctored cards out there in TPG holders.

The irony of TPG is unbelievable.

[QUOTE=jchcollins;2408864
I wouldn't think you are stupid for not concluding that cards subjected to these methods were not harmed, anymore than I would hope others would not find me stupid for not being able to tell which card is the one with a fixed corner from Kurt's spray 10 minutes later, searching through a pile. There may be a way to do this, but I haven't found it yet.[/QUOTE]

It could be time will tell with advances in technology.

It could be just moving to Arizona. Just as many have issues with Kellogg's cards cracking in their holders due to environmental differences, I have heard several stories of pressed creases returning to graded cards if the additional moisture added to press them evaporates and the card fiber contracts back to the creased state.

Simply put it doesn't matter to those doing it and it you plan on dying with your toys like myself, I guess do what you will. I just have a distaste for trying to sneak one past the goalie for profit as you are knowingly passing an unknown risk to an unknowing buyer for profit and that is a questionable move at best. ("you" is meant as a discussion, I am not accusing you. :))

At bottom, unless people are keeping their cards and just like them better if they look better, it's all an exercise in deception ultimately, driven by money. All the pretzel-twisted logic and justification in the world won't change that. If you (generic) really believe it's immaterial, just say what you did to the card and let buyers judge.

Totally agreed. As I've said in this thread before, not sure if the creases Kurt removes could return, or much like with the Kellogg's cards - if issues caused today only become apparent decades later. If that is the case, then Kurt and those who use his products will be called card doctors - justifiably - all day long.

Regarding both statements - absolutely correct. They've been doctoring cards for half a century, but since there's this much $$$ involved, it's probably become a past time to provide supplementary income to the good doctors. It's the doctors that use the scalpels on the cards that really tick me off. The TPGs are just blind.

I've asked this question before - how many of the high grade cards with razor sharp corners are smaller than the standard size for the card? And again, people will indicate that sizes vary (I get that), but can't the TPGs see that there are more cards with razor sharp corners from the population that is probably just under the standard card size and then make a logical conclusion with that data?

Yeah it's funny how the oversize ones are rarely high grade.

GWTS uses solvents to dissolve the adhesive and remove tape. Sometimes tape comes off cleanly, sometimes it doesn't and results in paper loss. You can also remove tape with a hair dryer. Just depends on what kind of tape it is. Sometimes the tape leaves behind a yellowish stain behind it. When that happens, nobody can get that stain out. Not even GWTS. Not without completely destroying the card anyhow.

I disagree regarding the devaluation of said cards. The market has clearly shown that it doesn't give two clucks about what cert numbers have been outed by BODA or which cards make it onto that completely unusable Tiffany Cards database. As long as the cert is still valid, the cards can be bought and sold pretty much anywhere at full market pricing. People who say otherwise are not looking at the data, but rather are projecting based on that which they wish to be true. Rightly or wrongly, it is what it is.

True. During the height of slabgate 3 years ago or whenever, PWCC contacted some owners of "suspect" PSA graded cards (how they arrived at that determination was not disclosed) to buy them back, ostensibly on the possibility that the FBI or whoever was working with them would need them for evidence. More than a year later, some of those collectors were contacted again by PWCC with matter-of-factly offers to sell them their cards back. No explanation, no, nothing to see - nothing funny going on here...

One would think if the market now considers these suspect slabs taboo, that either PSA would have invalidated the certs, or at a minimum an outfit like PWCC would have taken them out of circulation. But of course none of that happened. They were all just returned to circulation when slabgate became much ado about nothing.

Very few pointy cornered cards, with small borders, are legit... I love this miscut. It could probably be an 8 in the wrong hands!

https://luckeycards.com/bres.jpg

Soaking, album removal
 

I’ve shifted my focus from prewar baseball to vintage & modern soccer. I’ve had to come to terms with soaking & using a professional removal service when purchasing vintage albums. Typically, PSA catches the glue residue and provides grades of 2.5 or less, but the removal process is absolutely necessary to retain any type of eye appeal.

Examples of a professional removal compared with a not so professional one.

I think the market is just ignorant of the issue. Most collectors don't know who BODA is or what is in the Tiffany database. Doesn't mean they don't care. They just assume PSA is watching over everything.

Every slabbed card has a story, don't it?
 

I think at best the ignorance equates to not caring by now, in 2024. The hobby news about slabgate and trimming and fraud is hardly new. Before the Gary Moser's of the world were Mastro and his ilk.

Many attribute the lack of concern to high roller registry set investor types having been in bed with PSA too long at this point. Hard to disagree with that as a motive.

I didn't know who Gary Moser was until I joined Net54. You don't need to be current on hobby news to buy a card on ebay. I think you may be overestimating the overall knowledge of card collectors.

P.S. I wouldn't call registry set buyers "investors". They are mostly in it for the competition and the bravado. From a money standpoint, you would be better off selling to registry builders than becoming one yourself.

While it's true that some of the hobby rank and file can be in the dark on some of those things, enough waves were made among those in the know who had the power to do something about it if they wanted to between 2019 and 2021 or so. In the final analysis, they didn't. As has been said on N54 before in various flavors - nobody much cares. Stuff triumphs over all.

I think a fair question, though, Al, is if they did know would they care? It seems from the number of people who do know but don't care, the answer unfortunately may be no.

You can do an experiment. Put a card up on ebay and call it "professionally restored" and see how much it sells for.

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Certainly, that's true to some extent, but I think the majority are indifferent at best. Most collectors have at least heard about it, but they just don't care enough to research all the details. Which is to say, they're not bothered by it enough to actually do something about it or change their behavior. Whether that's the same as endorsing it or not doesn't really matter, because it ultimately has the same effect.

Then you gave guys like Rick Probstein who stated in a social media video on Instagram that if he were to find out that cards in his collection had been trimmed, it wouldn't bother him at all because they were good enough to pass through grading and that's all he cares about.

If most people can't even be bothered by the trimming scandal, I think we can deduce where they'd stand on something as benign as cleaning, soaking, and flattening out smashed up corners.

The overwhelming majority of sum total value from altered cards ends up in these guys collections though. And if these guys don't care, then I don't see anything ever being done about it.

Put that relatively in the fine print, and have the card still be in a PSA 8 slab. See how much it sells for.

How about a PSA 8 that has an obvious crease and is a counterfeit card? I sold one with full disclosure. I showed a close up pic of the obvious crease and told the buyer I 100% believed the card to be counterfeit. Buyer only cared it was in a PSA 8 slab.:eek:

Exactly. Most even that do look at "the card and not the slab" are going to place the emphasis there - and not in the description.

Ben, you're kidding, right? Can you disclose the card? Wow!

If you’re selling that card on eBay (which was the original premise proposed here), then I’m not sure how it gets through the authenticity guarantee program.

Not that they’re going to re-grade it. But it seems like if it’s an obvious fake, then they would catch the reseal.

We can quibble over percentages, but I generally agree. As long as there is a substantial part of the market that is indifferent or oblivious, card doctoring will thrive.

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Maybe, maybe not. I would suspect that even PSA is looking first and foremost for an authentic flip, whether or not it's theirs or someone else's. I've sent ebay orders out to Santa Ana for authentication, and again (as is the trend with authentication and grading currently) the pace at which they move suggests they are spending hardly any time on each item. The purpose of course is to catch it, yes - but just saying I wouldn't be surprised if things are able to slip through.

Same discussion we are having here on YouTube:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YkQyI_9VbRo&t=3127s

Every slabbed card has a story, don't it?
 

The card was graded poor because it has a pinhole. Everything else is irrelevant.

Would make zero sense financially to soak this card with its pinhole.
I assume it be enjoyed as a nice eye appeal card.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...79180d2ff1.jpg

Wow, I had to go back to post 178 to refresh.

I didn't see the pin hole in the card, however, my thought was that the card looks pretty nice beyond the paste at the corners.

If it were cleaned, it could be resubmitted and there's the possibility the TPG misses that "very tiny" pin hole. I wouldn't promote the resubmission in the attempt to get it by the TPG, but I'm sure others might see the potential benefit.

I suppose the next question would bring up debate. If it were soaked and result in no damage to the card, then an assumption is that card would look awesome (front is centered fairly well). Would anybody soak it just to have a nicer looking card (assuming no damage to the card occurs).

For arguements sake (or to alleviate most reasons for a debate), lets say the card was soaked only in water.

Yes, I would absolutely soak a card just to clean it up even though I know it would receive the same technical grade if resubmitted. I've done it countless times.

Hello,

For this post, please remember that when I refer to cleaning or soaking it is with 100% distilled water only.

1) I agree. The pinhole is there yet subtle enough where it doesn’t take away from the card. It does go through the back, unfortunately. It’s like looking through a peak / peep hole. Ever watched the 1982 movie, Porky’s? ��.

2a & b) I don’t think anyone with common sense will resubmit this card to a grader w/ a hole in it. It makes zero sense.

Even if you clean the card, it’s still gonna have the hole. It’s not like soaking the card is gonna make the cardboard grow to fill the hole. Additionally, it could be greater as authentic instead of a1 / poor.

Soaking does not always clean a card. it was primarily used 5+ decades ago to remove cards that were taped or glued in scrapbooks. Additionally, some cards cannot be soaked and could be destroyed.

I don't see a problem with using distilled water, but using anything else is probably not a good idea in the long term.

Every slabbed card has a story, don't it?
 

Vintage Card Restoration: Dealing with pinholes on vintage sports cards
https://youtu.be/mxTWkdLyfws?si=v8o3-ONtWRk278Jb


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incredible. would have not ever imagined

Please note I didn’t post that video as something positive.


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I wonder what would happen if the card was soaked rather than going through the process completed to lessen the size of the pin hole. I wonder if a grader would actually see the hole or if the quick glance would result in a determination it was just an ink imperfection.

You have to admit that for the effort put forth, the results of the "pinhole relief" are impressive. No extra material added. Not sure what's in the solution used, but I'm guessing it probably doesn't have much in the way of chemicals else there'd be possible ink discoloration issues.

I probably wouldn't purchase any cards from Kurt because in the back of your mind you'd be wondering, what is it that I'm missing. In no way am I implying he'd try and pass something off without disclosure. I'm guessing he'd be more than happy to disclose all work done to one of his cardboard patients.

Because I'm posting the before/after pics doesn't imply I'm a fan of card repair (especially trimming). It's an interesting topic and deserves discussion.


Attachment 608589

Please note that my reaction wasn't intimating I agreed with it per se. I just think the stuff he can do are things that have not even crossed my mind.

Let’s clarify one thing. Distilled water may not chemically ALTER the DNA of a card, but it sure as hell will structurally alter the card through osmosis and osmotic cell lysis. Soaking a card in water and then pressing it between books is a petri dish for yeast, bacteria and mold which can damage a card.

Sometimes you can improve a pinhole by using a straw when the card is wet from soaking. The pinhole is still there obviously, but visually it can look a lot better because you suck the broken paper fibers back to where they belong and it fills in the gap.

That's why you dry them out. Nobody is trapping them in a moist environment. You change the paper towels or napkins out when they get wet. Typically every couple hours at first.

That's a significant decrease in the size of that pinhole.

Ignoring the shiny card being discussed, I thought this post by PSA’s president was interesting.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...f146b4b301.jpg
https://x.com/rhoge/status/176802857...drPQjLt5o7epiw


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Their policy is pretty clear. I've been saying this all along, but their website says they will consider a card to be altered if [and only if - emphasis added] it "bears evidence of trimming, recoloring, cleaning, etc".

There is a world of difference between a properly cleaned card and a card that "bears evidence of cleaning". These two things are not the same. They are only concerned about the latter.

If you can't read between the lines, I'd be happy to translate for you. He's saying, "if you use something to clean your cards with, you should probably wipe it off before submitting it."

Read his post again and you’ll find he mentioned more than “cleaning.”


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