Scott,

At no point were the 1916 Herpolsheimer cards pointed to as fakes. The 1921s are the ones.

Thank you for the link. That is some beautiful artwork pictured.

Does a Sovereign Reverse Have an Open Border?
 

Does a Sovereign Reverse Have an Open Border?

With such a fine collection of borders it is a shame that Lanston went out of business along with their Monotype Composition Casters et al.
Now we have to deal with the issue of open borders.:eek::eek::D

https://www.collectorfocus.com/image...g-wash-sov-350

Indeed it does not have an open border. ;):cool:

It certainly is.

I was going to post that the e121 cards were typographed.


As far as faking offset transfers, it's not easy. If you were newly typographing a set of cards, making offset transfers while the cards were still wet would be very easy.

There are exceptions, some inks may never completely dry. And some are more susceptible to chemical alteration.
Like the vegetable oil based inks many magazines are printed with today. They've improved, but SI from around the time they switched were easily damaged by handling them.

And at least one formulation of ink used in the 1870's-80's can leave a transfer from weight placed on it during shipping.

Generally though, the inks were well formulated to dry well and quickly, and don't leave transfers post factory.

Jason,

6M434N I would agree with about the Holsum Bread.

Now, the 6 Pt. 635N; Also, 6M635N is close, but....and leaves me with one question of course......with the also in the reference, was what was the variable between designs?

I apologize, but I was told these were made in the 1970's by the dealer (told doesn't mean he made them) and the one on the back of the "1921" still looks like the design of a disco floor or even some coffee tables from the 1970's which may have been the inspiration for the design.

Jason,

Can I direct your attention to the synopsis in the white of the website below the page you offered in your information?


https://archive.org/details/LanstonM...e/n23/mode/2up

"A typographical specimen booklet containing borders and ornaments for casting on the Lanston Monotype Composition Caster, Lanston Monotype Type-Caster, Lanston Monotype Giant Caster and Monotype-Thompson Type-Caster. This booklet is from a Lanston Monotype specimen book (binder) bearing the general title "Monotype Type Faces." It is undated, but based on internal evidence elsewhere in the binder it is from the late 1930s or early 1940s."

I apologize, but this paragraph eliminates the design.

It eliminates it from being a disco-inspired design from the 1970s. It does not mean the design was not in use earlier. Design 6M434N matches the Holsum Bread design. So either your Holsum Bread card is fake or it is possible that a design used in the late 1930s was also used in the 1920s.

Exactly.

Nope.

[QUOTE=jggames;2392131]Exactly.[/QUOTE


Nope.

I don't know what "nope" means in this case. Please elaborate.

And the beat goes on. Cher.

1. We disagree.
2. The "Herpolsheimer's" brand, not the 1916 one, but the one we have been discussing, is not from 1921, but from a later date. Have an older looking design makes the fakes easier to sell.

Steve,

Thank you for this post.

Well, Cher was big in the 1970's and the design on the back of the "1921" Herpolsheimer's would have fit in well as a floor design for her performances.

Before you said (many times) that you didn't like the 1921 border because it looked like a 1970s design.

Now that someone has shown that the design existed well before 1970, you seem to be saying you don't like them because having "an older looking design makes the fakes easier to sell".

As far as I can tell, your only basis for calling the cards fake is that a dealer in 1999 said they were.

When you mention there is no address on the back, others point out that that is in keeping with earlier Herpolsheimer's cards, printed Herpolsheimer's ads, and other 1921 cards (like Holsum Bread Standard Biscuit).

When you question why no ads were placed in 1921 newspapers for the cards, someone finds an ad.

When you say the borders are from the 1970s, someone finds proof that they are not. Which somehow you use to support that the cards are fake.

Your argument is essentially they are fake because I know they are counterfeit because someone told me they are not real. I do not count "LOL" and "I will not be bidding" as arguments. Nor do I see the relevance of AI being used in the future to counterfeit cards, speculation that the next batch is due in 2034, or the fact that it is possible to counterfeit cards.

I am curious if the dealer from 1999 has looked at every card in your collection. Otherwise, how do you know they are not all fakes?

Before 1970, but the dealer indicated the cards were made in the 1970's and it still looks like a 1970's disco floor design but keep me in mind some 1970's disco floor designs harked back to the 1930's and 1940's and the link in the previous post placed the design in those years.

"When you mention there is no address on the back, others point out that that is in keeping with earlier Herpolsheimer's cards, printed Herpolsheimer's ads, and other 1921 cards (like Holsum Bread)."

There was only one other Herpolsheimer's set of cards which was the real group from 1916. No address. 1921 Holsum Bread? Please see the attachments. Showing front just so you know who is on the card and back for the address.

"Your argument is essentially they are fake because I know they are counterfeit because someone told me they are not real. I do not count "LOL" and "I will not be bidding" as arguments. Nor do I see the relevance of AI being used in the future to counterfeit cards, speculation that the next batch is due in 2034, or the fact that it is possible to counterfeit cards."

I saw the cards, I discussed with the dealer, I handled the cards and I looked at the back design and he mentioned that they were made in the 1970's. It is incredibly possible to counterfeit cards. Feel free to do a Google search. AI will simply make this a higher tech accomplishment in the future.

"I am curious if the dealer from 1999 has looked at every card in your collection. Otherwise, how do you know they are not all fakes?[/QUOTE]"

LOL with all due respect and Thank you!

My mistake on the Holsum Bread...they do have the address....there are so many sets to keep track of...I meant Standard Biscuit.

Otherwise, we are just back to agree to disagree.

You will not be persuaded the cards are real and everyone else on the board will not be persuaded they are fake, so I guess I will just drop it.

Seriously, this is starting to feel more and more like an episode of “Punk’d” than a serious discussion of whether the cards are real or fake.

Absent an anecdotal testimony Brian heard 2 decades ago he is full of it and he knows it. He doesn’t have to accept the consensus of this board, but to keep on digging in his heels when everything he had questioned has been debunked is asinine. He doesn’t want to be wrong but… YOU, BRIAN, are wrong and are making a poor showing of yourself here by not being able to accept that fact.

I said I was done with the thread earlier and apologize for even chiming back in but these E121-like cards are kinda special to me and I have dedicated more time to studying them than perhaps anyone else in the world. The idea that someone could conjure up fakes that would fool me or any of the others testifying to their legitimacy is actually rather insulting.


Imagine this scenario…a fake set is made in the 1970’s that was previously unknown to exist…then coincidentally the company that the person decided to fake as the maker of the fraud set DID in fact have an actual promotion distributing baseball cards in the same style, format and year as the “fake” cards(which was unknown to the fraudster) and then several advertisements are found to confirm the promotion (which would have been unknown to the fraudster)… THiS IS INSANELY COINCIDENTAL!!!

Or…The cards are real and Brian is full of Shit! :D

You can only win with facts and evidence and reason with a person who also accepts those as the grounds of battle and the rules of engagement. You can’t reason with an idiot who rejects them in favor of an appeal to authority to an anonymous dealer’s claim they may even be making up too.

Nobody should change their mind because of the credentials of people who say otherwise or because of peer pressure; they should because their claim is absurdist and illogical and all of the evidence is against it and points to the exact opposite.

This is the stupidest thread in a long time. I love it.

Michael,

Thank you for the response.

Now, now, now Rhett.

I am still waiting for response to my post to your #218 yesterday. Here is what you stated:

"The weird part about your theory of fake cards Brian is...

the subjects included in the "fake" Herpolsheimer cards line up perfectly with the D350 Standard Biscuit and Holsum Bread (Type 2) set perfectly as VERY early 1921 sets and pre-date the earliest version of the E121 Series 80 set because by the time the E121-80 set was printed many of the "dropped" cards had been eliminated from the lineup.

WHAT MAKES THIS INTERESTING?

This knowledge is only known by me and a handful of other people in the entire world and was known by nobody in the 1970's.

And, when I say they line up perfectly...I mean there are 0 outliers! There is not a single mistake made in the Herpolsheimer's checklist and includes copies of cards that were not known to exist in the "E121 family of sets" in the 1970's...like the Davenport card (which is only included in the sets listed above and 1-2 copies in the world as a W575-1)

With all due respect you are being ridiculous about this subject and you seem to really have a hard time with admitting when you are wrong.

I am done with this conversation at this point and would advise everyone to stop "feeding the troll" as Brian is obviously not looking at anything here objectively and is (I can only imagine at this point) is somehow getting pleasure from his troll behavior."

No errors, but no answer so far to Peckinpaugh/Peckinbaugh in existence in the Herpolsheimer knock off in my response and that is just one example.

Also, here is another one.

Post #240 today which states

Wow, this is an all-time thread. Like others I enjoy printmaking so, FWIW, with a fairly quick search I was able to find both borders available in the 1930s and 40s, so the border in question was definitely available before the 1970s.

https://archive.org/details/LanstonM...e/n23/mode/2up

Go to the link and below the images?

A typographical specimen booklet containing borders and ornaments for casting on the Lanston Monotype Composition Caster, Lanston Monotype Type-Caster, Lanston Monotype Giant Caster and Monotype-Thompson Type-Caster. This booklet is from a Lanston Monotype specimen book (binder) bearing the general title "Monotype Type Faces." It is undated, but based on internal evidence elsewhere in the binder it is from the late 1930s or early 1940s.


Oh, we're just off by the early 1920's (not) to the late 1930's or 1940's. Still, let's go with the lesser number of years and be off by under twenty years. Yeah, that's the ticket. Refund! LOL!

Greg,

Well, we have something in common. :D

By the way gentlemen,

I have to give credit where it is deserved. From last Wednesday morning until today I have had a cold. It caused me to back out of not one or two, but three Thanksgiving dinners. I thank you seriously for your responses in this thread for making me recover.

Sincerely,

Brian Van Horn

P.S.

Keep the responses coming. The "1921" Herpolsheimer cards are fakes. :D

The brilliant irony of this terribly annoying thread that won’t die (and I just bumped it) is that the Herpolsheimers (and many LOTG lots) probably went for more because of Brian’s (incorrect) claims, which lead to a runaway thread of publicity and produced what, I think, is previously unknown and lock-solid proof of authenticity. Classic

In the Holsum Bread set the Peckinpaugh card in Type 1 (1920) has him correctly identified as “PeckinPaugh” while the Type 2 (1921) has his name mistakenly listed as “ PeckinBaugh”

The incorrect spelling was continued into the next round of production (which included the E121 Series of 80 cards (Type 1) cards

The last round of production of the cards with their various backs included E121-80 Type 2 & 3 backs, Gasslers’s and Koester’s Bread has the company RE-correcting the card to “PeckinPaugh”

What exactly do you think you are proving with that?

Rhett,

Please review your previous post, not your response you just made. You stated:

"And, when I say they line up perfectly...I mean there are 0 outliers! There is not a single mistake made in the Herpolsheimer's checklist and includes copies of cards that were not known to exist in the "E121 family of sets" in the 1970's...like the Davenport card (which is only included in the sets listed above and 1-2 copies in the world as a W575-1)"

Well mistake could be interpreted as a mistake in the name or in the nameplate of a player, thus the question involving Peckinpaugh/Peckinbaugh.

Now, as for the link:

https://archive.org/details/LanstonM...e/n23/mode/2up

Just under 20 to 20 years off. Uh, hmmm.

Go to the link and below the images?

A typographical specimen booklet containing borders and ornaments for casting on the Lanston Monotype Composition Caster, Lanston Monotype Type-Caster, Lanston Monotype Giant Caster and Monotype-Thompson Type-Caster. This booklet is from a Lanston Monotype specimen book (binder) bearing the general title "Monotype Type Faces." It is undated, but based on internal evidence elsewhere in the binder it is from the late 1930s or early 1940s.

It lines up with the timeline of Peckinpaugh cards perfectly.

Something that would not be done by a fraudster with no knowledge of the sets.

Your peckinpaugh blank back lines up with the Koester’s printing at the end of the 1921 season (at the same time as E121 Series of 80 Type 2 & 3, Gassler’s Bread as well) when they had recorrected his name.

424. Scorched Mirth
A welcome and unexpected post in the middle of a very contentious thread which suddenly provides comic relief and brings smiles to people’s faces.

See also: Laftereffects - when other people follow suit and keep the light-hearted vibe going to ease the tension.



Since every thread is more enjoyable with 'Collectorisms,' I will shamelessly (Herpolshamelessly??) ride my pun horse out of the barn and quickly (way too quickly...definitely shoulda spent some more time on inventing this garbage) try a little 'Scorched Mirth' in this one (obviously not taking sides in the matter, just reporting what I see)...

Herpolshaman
Someone who stands up, sticks to his guns and preaches his truth to collectors that the 1921 Herpolsheimer’s cards are fakes.

Herpolshammer
Someone who knowingly pushes the false narrative that 1921 Herpolsheimer’s cards are fakes.

Herpol Rain
The torrents of on-line abuse pouring down on anyone daring to suggest the 1921 Herpolsheimer’s cards are fakes.

Herpolshamers
Members who angrily go after anyone making the claim that the 1921 Herpolsheimer’s cards are fakes.

Herpolshimsham
The act of tap dancing around all of the abuse flying your way in a thread about 1921 Herpolsheimer’s cards.

Addrest Assured
The belief that the lack of an address on back either proves 100% that the 1921 Herpolsheimer’s cards are fakes OR proves 100% that they are real.

Cher Cropper
Anyone who is able to somehow slyly sneak Cherilyn Sarkisian’s moniker into the middle of a baseball card debate thread.

Border Blather
The back and forth from each side of the debate arguing over whether or not the advertisement border and ornament design is the proof that wins the case for their side.

‘16 Scandals (slang)
Relying on the known facts about the Herpolsheimer’s cards issued five years earlier to prove that any claims purporting the 1921 cards to be fake are a wanton deception.

Boysfashionistas
General fans of the Herpolsheimer’s cards.

OK. Now, for the late 1930's, early 1940's on the back. Still looking forward in about ten years to the Peckinpaugh sample.

My apologies.

Thank you. Also, during this post this evening I have been listening to the song "The Eggplant that Ate Chicago" which is by Norman Greenbaum and puts him one beyond the one hit wonder number. Remember "Spirit in the Sky". No, I did not hear this song ever on Dr. Demento:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vfZ1ZHDAq08

If I read 272 posts, am I going to be convinced that these cards are real or fake?

Save your time. Both sides will be holding their ground.

The designs found were from the late 1930's-early 1940's.

That clearly disproves your idea that this was a disco-inspired design from the 1970's as you stated several times:

• Post 217 "I also handled the cards with concern about the design which looked like, in my opinion, something influenced by the disco era"
• Post 245 "and the one on the back of the "1921" still looks like the design of a disco floor or even some coffee tables from the 1970's"
• Post 255 "Well, Cher was big in the 1970's and the design on the back of the "1921" Herpolsheimer's would have fit in well as a floor design for her performances".

It does not disprove the idea the design could have existed in 1921.

The sample book of borders has a design used by Holsum Bread in 1921. That does not mean the Holsum Bread cards are fake.

Let me put it this way. Say I discovered a magazine article from 1940 about airplanes. That would disprove that airplanes originated in the 1970's. But it would not mean airplanes did not exist in 1921.

They were conclusively proven real through new genuine search as a result of a complete moron making shit up and lying.

Michael,

"It does not disprove the idea the design could have existed in 1921."

The Herpolsheimer cards are not proof the design existed in 1921.

From my post earlier today (#257):

"I saw the cards, I discussed with the dealer, I handled the cards and I looked at the back design and he mentioned that they were made in the 1970's. It is incredibly possible to counterfeit cards. Feel free to do a Google search. AI will simply make this a higher tech accomplishment in the future."

Wow. 1930's, 1940's and 1970's similarities. The Big Band music, however, was by far the better music. Oops! Another discussion but has to be on another board. :D

Now, let me refresh you on a post (#240 earlier today):

https://archive.org/details/LanstonM...e/n23/mode/2up

My response in post 246 earlier today:

Can I direct your attention to the synopsis in the white of the website below the page you offered in your information?


https://archive.org/details/LanstonM...e/n23/mode/2up

"A typographical specimen booklet containing borders and ornaments for casting on the Lanston Monotype Composition Caster, Lanston Monotype Type-Caster, Lanston Monotype Giant Caster and Monotype-Thompson Type-Caster. This booklet is from a Lanston Monotype specimen book (binder) bearing the general title "Monotype Type Faces." It is undated, but based on internal evidence elsewhere in the binder it is from the late 1930s or early 1940s."

I apologize, but this paragraph eliminates the design.

Ah, revitalized design from the 1930's or 1940's in the 1970's on a 1921 card. Forget the math here. What's under or over 20 years difference? Uh, hum. Cough, cough. They must have planning for a bumper crop with this "set". Man, the aroma.

I agree that "The Herpolsheimer cards are not proof the design existed in 1921."

I never said it was proof.

I just said that, like the Holsum Bread design found in the same book, the design could have existed in 1921 but could not have originated in the 1970's.

The problem with saying "Ah, revitalized design from the 1930's or 1940's in the 1970's on a 1921 card" is that you are starting by assuming they are 1970's cards (or at least assuming that this particular design was used because it was revitalized in the 1970's). Why would a counterfeiter use a 1970's style design if they were trying to forge a 1921 card?

It still comes down to two things: the dealer said they were from the 1970's and it is possible to counterfeit cards. I am not disputing that these things are true. I (and I think most of us) are just saying the dealer was incorrect.

And if "this paragraph eliminates the design" how did another design from the book get on a 1921 Holsum Bread card?

"I never said it was proof.

I just said that, like the Holsum Bread design found in the same book, the design could have existed in 1921 but could not have originated in the 1970s."

My apologies.

"The problem with saying "Ah, revitalized design from the 1930's or 1940's in the 1970's on a 1921 card" is that you are starting by assuming they are 1970's cards."

Please review:

I have stated the dealer in May 1999 told me at the table the cards were printed in the 1970's.

"And if "this paragraph eliminates the design" how did another design from the book get on a 1921 Holsum Bread card."

I've been waiting for this one all day. THANK YOU!!!!
The Holsums have been known for a very long time. The "1921" Herpolsheimer plus a design from either the late 1930's or 1940's plus a dealer at the table in May 1999 waiving his hand over the cards in the case and stating they were printed in the 1970's equals not original. Those three outweigh, but the Holsum design was also the late 1930's or 1940's from reading the link and interpreting.

Summary: The "1921" Herpolsheimer cards are fakes, but will probably have more findings in the future. Wow, the possibilities. I'll leave out the incentives for the possibilities because they are obvious.

Well, it is too late to continue arguing. But can you do me one favor and please stop saying "waiving"? That means putting a player on waivers (among other definitions). I think we can all agree that "waving" is the correct word.

Waving goodnight and my cold obviously has had one side effect. :)

Another one was naming the attachment Waving High. I know. That one's open for interpretation with the photo. Oh, the effects of a cold.

I apologize in advance, I try to mostly lurk on this forum because just about everyone else on here is so much more knowledgeable than me, and I know you all have known each other for years and no one has a clue who I am, but an aspect of this discussion has really stuck in my craw. Brian you said the design looks like something from the 70s, "inspired by disco". Someone posted evidence the design existed several decades earlier, so clearly NOT inspired by disco. Now you're trying to use that as evidence the cards couldn't have been made in 1921? What? Talk about moving the goalposts. Even if the designs posted were from the 30s or 40s it doesn't mean they were all brand new, some could have been around for years before that, correct? The point of that being posted (I believe) was to establish the design existed well before the 70s. NOT that the design hadn't been around for even longer. The two are not mutually exclusive.

Brian it seems that you have your stance & the rest of the world thinks otherwise

I have a feeling I will be reading updates to this thread in 30 years in a senior care facility somewhere. Nurse yelling at me to put the phone down.

Thank you for covering the next batches.

If I read 272 posts, am I going to be convinced that these cards are real or fake?

Reader's Digest Version: Brian asserts that the cards are fake, because someone long ago told him they were fake. Brian believes the person was in a position to know and had no obvious reason to lie about it.

Meanwhile, numerous hobby stalwarts have analyzed the cards and concluded that they are real, including PSA. As such the preponderance of people (including myself) have concluded that the probability is very high that they are real, and Brian's account is flawed in some unknowable way.

Despite the over-heated use of phrases like "lock-solid proof", "conclusively proven real", and ". . . that fact (that Brian is wrong)", there will never be complete certainty because there is no practical way to definitively prove the cards are real. Expert opinion is occasionally wrong.

Andy,

I was told by the dealer that had these cards in his case at the Robert Morris Show in May 1999 that the cards were fake as he waived his hand over the case. He also said they were made in the 1970's. I looked at them, handled them and observed the backs which I thought look like they were made in the 1970's because they looked like disco dance floors.

Now, another member here trying to provide evidence the backs were real, provided the following link in post #240 yesterday at #921 a.m.

https://archive.org/details/LanstonM...e/n23/mode/2up

Just one little problem with the evidence:

A typographical specimen booklet containing borders and ornaments for casting on the Lanston Monotype Composition Caster, Lanston Monotype Type-Caster, Lanston Monotype Giant Caster and Monotype-Thompson Type-Caster. This booklet is from a Lanston Monotype specimen book (binder) bearing the general title "Monotype Type Faces." It is undated, but based on internal evidence elsewhere in the binder it is from the late 1930s or early 1940s.

So, let's review:

1.) The dealer at the Robert Morris Show said the cards were fake when we met in May 1999 and made in the 1970's. I reviewed the cards and I had a problem with the back design.

2.) From the link provided in post #240 yesterday:

It is undated, but based on internal evidence elsewhere in the binder it is from the late 1930s or early 1940s.


Now, these basic points and I have pointed out other ones are that the cards are fake. They were in 1999 and 2004 with the first batch and 2019 and this year with the second. Waiting on three times the charm, but that will not result in them being real.

George,

Well put. Just not heated from my side. Amused.

Your overall point stands, but I have a minor quibble. The issue is not the "Brian's account is flawed in some unknowable way." The issue is that, even accepting everything he claims as 100% true, his conclusion that the cards are fake is built on several logical fallacies.

Even if everyone could agree that nothing is truly certain, the anecdotal evidence that these are fake is laughably weak. It reminded me of Thanksgiving this year, when my dad quoted the My Pillow guy as gospel and assured me that all the evidence I needed was that the My Pillow guy knows his stuff.

I asked you nicely to stop saying "waived" (although technically I asked you to stop saying "waiving" so maybe that is why you said "waived" this time).

Michael,

Which post? You stated that in your last post last night. By the way waving you good morning.

lol!

In post 280 I said "Well, it is too late to continue arguing. But can you do me one favor and please stop saying "waiving"? That means putting a player on waivers (among other definitions). I think we can all agree that "waving" is the correct word."

In post 281 you seemed to agree with me and blamed it on a cold. You said "Waving goodnight and my cold obviously has had one side effect."

Then in post 287 (which I quoted in my post 290) you said "as he waived his hand over the case".

In order to find at least one thing we can all agree on, can we agree that any form of the word "waive" is not correct for describing someone waving his hand at the cards?

Sorry, but still have the cold. Let's wave on.

Herpolsheimer's Impact on Climate Change should be explored further. Carbon 14 dating to establish the age of the paper/cardboard used in the creation of all the real and faux Herpolsheimer exemplars is needed information. Who among you is certain of the value of Herpolsheimer carbon credits? Isn't everyone who deals in Herpolsheimers breaking the law including auction houses? Aren't more federal agents needed to monitor the Herpolsheimer card market? These are all relevant questions that need to be answered. You can't make this up, but I can.

Furthermore the gentlemen in 1999 and 2004 who espoused the Fabricated Herpolsheimer Hypothesis (FHH) need to be identified and subpoenaed for questioning. Was he/she/they really a dealer(s)? Where was he/she/they born? Were he/she/they an interplanetary refugee transported to earth via asteroid? Is this all part of an intergalactic conspiracy? My friends on this forum, I fear, are merely scratching the surface of the FHH.

My advice is to forget the cards and invest in the Herpolsheimer short pants market, or should you "short" the Herpolsheimer long pants market. My advice to Leon is to be wary of Herpolsheimer pants flippers. Where there's a flipper, there's a scammer.

Carry on.

Despite trailing right now by 28,000, another week of this thread and Brian will surpass Leon for most lifetime N54 posts!

Frank for president except one clarification. The gentleman in 1999 and the one who sold the cards on eBay in 2004 were two different gents.

Brian, Post #295 has been edited to reflect your critique. However the 1999 gentleman could have been morphed into the 2004 gentleman, so I have left the pronouns ambivalent.

Do we have a Net 54 pronoun authority? I would respectfully decline such a position.

Reading this one post makes the former several hundred worth it!!!

Frank,

I agree. The guy in 2004 could have been a "fake" of the 1999 version. Oh, I am so sorry. I may have to put one version of the gentleman on waivers and wave him goodbye. Oh, the humanity!

It's between you and Alfred E. Neuman for president next November.

Very amusing thread. To try to keep it entertaining, here are a few theories:

1. Brian is trying to save face – he is remaining firm in his belief the 1921 Herpolsheimer's are fakes because he holds a ton of regret because he didn’t buy the entire lot of 39 cards for about $85 total at the show in 1999.

……or……

2. There were actually 40 cards and the extra card was a second Ruth in better condition. On a whim, Brian bought it for $5. He keeps pushing the thread as a genius move for increased interest in the set, ahead of selling his card for good money. Brian’s post #279, “The "1921" Herpolsheimer cards are fakes, but will probably have more findings in the future. Wow, the possibilities. I'll leave out the incentives for the possibilities because they are obvious.” This is satire...I don't know of more Ruth examples.

……or……

3. Brian never attended that show in 1999 and has never seen the first group of cards before they were sold a while back. The wizard-like, wand-waving “dealer” was just a dream. So just trolling to troll?

……and the truth……

4. Being more serious now….Rhett explained in his post #218 that the checklist of players match perfectly with those included in other similar 1921 sets. The previously unknown subjects (the new 1/1s) which were found in this 39 card group confirm Rhett’s theory. Considering how far the knowledge in the hobby has advanced since the 1970s through the internet, shared resources and die-hard collectors like you; Rhett is also correct that these cards could not have been made in the 1970s. Logically, the cards are original, they date back to 1921 and are pretty rare. “They’re real…and they’re spectacular!”

1. Ball one

2. Ball two

3. Ball three

4. Once again from the link in yesterday's post 240 which was originally meant to dispel my argument:

https://archive.org/details/LanstonM...e/n23/mode/2up

A typographical specimen booklet containing borders and ornaments for casting on the Lanston Monotype Composition Caster, Lanston Monotype Type-Caster, Lanston Monotype Giant Caster and Monotype-Thompson Type-Caster. This booklet is from a Lanston Monotype specimen book (binder) bearing the general title "Monotype Type Faces." It is undated, but based on internal evidence elsewhere in the binder it is from the late 1930s or early 1940s.

A set can be faked and by a person who works as a printer.

Thank you for the walk. I enjoyed advancing to first base.

LOL!

Only a little below 29,700 before we reach 30.000 posts for this topic.

:cool:

It was my post, and you keep bringing it up, so I guess I'll chime in again. It dispels your argument that the disco border was from 1970s.

"It doesn't look like a pattern from the 1920s, but an imitation for the 1970s."

It wasn't, it was from at least the 30s or 40s. It's why I put that paragraph in the post.

I hate to ask again, but can you please explain why someone finding a matching border specimen from 1930's-1940's means the cards are fake?

All it means is that the border did not originate in the 1970's.

It does not mean the border could not have existed earlier.

I understand that a set can be faked. Any set can be faked. I am just asking why you think this set is faked (besides the fact that someone else said they were fake).

Here's the math:

1930s-1940s minus "1921" equals upper teens to low twenties in years difference from when the design first existed and the argument for the card's year.

In other words, fake set

Brian,

Why would you destroy your reputation in the hobby over something as dumb as this? It’s painful to watch. Please stop.

You are adding the words "first existed" when no one is claiming that. We are just saying that it existed, which means it was not a 1970's disco pattern.

We all agree that the 1921 Holsum Bread cards are real and from 1921 (don't we?). And yet that border pattern is in the book as well.

Jeffrey,

I apologize, but if ruining my rep saves people from getting ripped off so be the matter. Just a reminder to you about your accusations about Bill Mastro, the criticism you received by the masses on this board and the fact you were correct.

Please click the link and read the paragraph in the white below the book page:

https://archive.org/details/LanstonM...e/n23/mode/2up

A typographical specimen booklet containing borders and ornaments for casting on the Lanston Monotype Composition Caster, Lanston Monotype Type-Caster, Lanston Monotype Giant Caster and Monotype-Thompson Type-Caster. This booklet is from a Lanston Monotype specimen book (binder) bearing the general title "Monotype Type Faces." It is undated, but based on internal evidence elsewhere in the binder it is from the late 1930s or early 1940s.


The last time I checked late 1930s or early 1940s eliminates 1921 in origin.

Here's a few thoughts I have on them.

I've seen a few things related to memory and how two people can recall the same event differently, or a person can combine memories into a single inaccurate one.

I think that's what we have here.
Were there fakes of that group of sets made in the 1970's? Yes, I own one.

Is it possible a dealer would have ended up with a bunch of them having thought they were real? Yes.

But here is where it gets odd. The 70's fakes didn't have Herpolshimers backs.

Given those facts, a few possibilities
A dealer had a bunch of the fakes, and a later dealer sold a group and those were remembered as the fakes, but it was two different lots
Or
A dealer had a big lot of Herpolshimers, but not finding them in any references, believed them to be fake. (I used to really like dealers like that.. "it's not in Beckett so it's fake or worthless")
Or
Someone had a bunch of blank backed cards either fakes or originals, and added an ad back.
Or
Someone outright faked a set in small quantities.

All are possible, The first two seem somewhat likely.
The last..... I think is highly unlikely.
Fakes/reprints in general have been poorly made. Wrong stock, wrong process, wrong inks etc. To fake this set, you'd have to have all that stuff right. Plus
Youd need to know the checklist. Which as it's been pointed out isn't precisely known and certainly wasn't in the 70's. (My fake is both poorly made, and has the wrong back... )
Hardest perhaps would be having originals to copy.
Is it possible to make a typography plate that's a duplicate of the original, right down to the exact halftone so the dots in the pattern would match up? Yes
Is it likely a hobby printer could do it at home? Or that a professional would spend the required effort on making plates for 30-80 individual cards (likely at least a few days work. Then only print a handful of sets?

AND
Have the presence of mind to produce imperfect cards with deliberate offset transfers?

That would be some world class fakery at any time. And someone with the ability to make that work back then would be better served to produce the same quality fake for a smaller group of cards. Or a different set entirely.
Not a fake of a very obscure set made in the single digits and doled out over the course of decades. and somehow inserted into very different situations in different places.
Consider what similar cards went for back then.
My fake cost me $2 RETAIL in 1978. I'm still amazed someone thought it was worth the effort.

It makes no sense in any way.

The border...
While the design book may be from the 30's-40's, the actual type elements could have been around for a very long time.
Type is similar to industrial hardware.
While I was at the hydraulic place, I worked on stuff that was fairly old. One jack was made in 1945, and that model could still be bought new well into the 1990's.
A common bicycle hub was first offered in 1938. Had a minor change a year later, then no real changes until 2000... 62 years with only minor cosmetic changes, Parts bought new in 2000 would fit a hub from 1936. (also a fine example, as I recalled the intro date as 1935)

I would not be at all surprised that that border type was much older than 1920's.

There's so much that says these are real, I have to think one of the options where the memory of the dealer involves other cards, or that the dealer was mistaken seem to be very likely.

And a very appropriate card.
https://www.net54baseball.com/pictur...pictureid=2226https://www.net54baseball.com/pictur...pictureid=2227

The dealer in May 1999 indicated they were printed in the 1970's. They still look like disco dance floors. Disco dance floors were designed in part after the dance floors of the 1930s and 1940s. Last time I checked discos were from the 1970s and thank goodness died out shortly after. Yes, they held out until past 1980. I remember "We are Family" from the 1979 Pirates. Couldn't stand their theme song or their loud uniforms, but I was a fan of the team despite the disco overload. Better dressed since, but no World Series.

The binder was from the late 1930's or early 1940's. That does not mean that every pattern in the book was new to that binder. In fact, some patterns, such as the 1921 Holsum Bread pattern, were around since at least 1921.

Are you also saying 1921 Holsum Bread cards are fake? Because that pattern is in the book, which using your logic means it eliminates 1921 in origin.

Except I had clear anecdotal evidence which was immediately corroborated by the FBI who contacted me. In your case you have laughably weak, decades-old hearsay “evidence” from an unknown source — which has convinced no one. To suggest these two sets of circumstances are even remotely similar suggests to me that you’re having some kind of break from reality. And at this point you are not concerned about saving anyone from fraud, as I was as I had no prior axe to grind with Mastro. You’re just being George Constanta driving Susan’s parents out to his fake Montauk house. You always struck me as a decent and honest guy. This thread clearly is eroding that perception. Your choice I guess.

I have been waiting for this response from you. You have the Holsum which has been known for years. That eliminates it from your argument.

Now, as for the Herpolsheimer "back" similarity on the website link:

https://archive.org/details/LanstonM...e/n23/mode/2up

A typographical specimen booklet containing borders and ornaments for casting on the Lanston Monotype Composition Caster, Lanston Monotype Type-Caster, Lanston Monotype Giant Caster and Monotype-Thompson Type-Caster. This booklet is from a Lanston Monotype specimen book (binder) bearing the general title "Monotype Type Faces." It is undated, but based on internal evidence elsewhere in the binder it is from the late 1930s or early 1940s.

So:

1.) An honest dealer waiving his hand over the case in May 1999 indicating the cards are fake.

2.) The pattern on the back that looked and still does like a disco floor or coffee table (also from the 1970s) pattern.

3.) Reference to above:

It is undated, but based on internal evidence elsewhere in the binder it is from the late 1930s or early 1940s.

4.) First fakes of pre-WWII ever. No.

5.) Possibility of a person who works as a printer who has knowledge of cards including a love of Pre-WWII back in the 1970s. What a concept. A printer who collects cards and the thought of producing a group of the cards with a pattern which he may have seen on a disco floor which inspired him. The guy would have access to paper from the 1920's. Still, paper from the 1920's and pattern from the late 1930's or 1940's. Oh, we have the basis of a movie here. Alan Alda, however, is too old and Mr. Mint can no longer sue him. Oh, but I digress. My accurate memory despite a cold and Stage 2 Astrocytoma (Brain Cancer) doesn't get in the way.

Brian, perhaps you are suffering from "Saturday Night Fever."

Saturday Night Fever on a Tuesday morning. Oh, now that is not illness, but a horror movie.

For those from Pittsburgh, this would have scared Chilly Bill Cardille. For the rest of you look him up. I miss him as well from 1250 am.

Hiccup.

The cards are fake. My apologies about your Cobb.

Happy Holidays

So, to be clear, the Holsum Bread cards are real even though the pattern was found in a binder from the 1930's-40's because they have been known for years (I guess longer than the 24 years the Herpolsheimer's cards have been known).

The Herpolsheimer's cards are fake because someone in the 1970's decided the best way to make fake 1921 cards was to use a pattern from the same binder which looks (to you) like a disco floor.

Plus the dealer said they were fake (you said "waiving" again, so I guess I will stop asking you to stop). Plus it is possible for a printer to make fakes. Plus fakes exist of other sets.

I guess we are back at an impasse.

And I hope you were kidding about having brain cancer (that would be in bad taste, but at least you wouldn't have it). But if it is true, I only wish the best for you.

Brian,
You seem to have been a bit tongue-in-cheek with some of your posts, so I also hope that you are only kidding about brain cancer. I don't know you outside of this board, so I can't really gauge if this is your sense of humor or not. If you are serious, then I sincerely also wish you the best with beating it and recovery.

No need to offer up any apologies — I can sell it in 5 minutes for at least 50K. If anyone believed you, it would be worthless, much like your reputation now.