Oh boy, your flustered again. Time to shut the thread down....

50% amused, 50% incredulous that you need very statement copied and pasted several times for you.

I'm glad we've decided the appeal to authority is the arbiter.

JAWS / WAR / etc. is a very big metric. It says he belongs. The writers disagreed. I believe his peers who actually watched him play will correct that mistake.

He wasn't selected for the committee vote. How do they intend to do that?

Yes, it would seem that they do NOT agree.

Garvey was considered in 2020 and 2018, Mattingly, McGriff and Palmeiro this year, Will Clark in 2019. It seems that they think there are several modern 1B more deserving. Which does not make them right, but I don't see how this committee that it is not putting him on the ballot is going to "fix" this mistake the writers made of not sorting BBREF by WAR.

I didn't say this time.

In case any of you missed it, the Hall of Fame website now lists the members of the committee who will be casting their ballots. Results will be announced this coming Sunday at 8 pm eastern time.

https://baseballhall.org/news/2023-e...ced-december-4

"The 16-member Hall of Fame Board-appointed electorate charged with the review of the Contemporary Baseball Era player ballot features Hall of Fame members Chipper Jones, Greg Maddux, Jack Morris, Ryne Sandberg, Lee Smith, Frank Thomas and Alan Trammell; major league executives Paul Beeston, Theo Epstein, Arte Moreno, Kim Ng, Dave St. Peter and Ken Williams; and veteran media members/historians Steve Hirdt, LaVelle Neal and Susan Slusser."

"Results of the voting will be announced live on MLB Network on Sunday, Dec. 4 during MLB Tonight at 8 p.m. ET. Any electees are expected to be available to media shortly after the announcement via individual Zoom calls.

Albert Belle, Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Don Mattingly, Fred McGriff, Dale Murphy, Rafael Palmeiro and Curt Schilling were named on Nov. 7 as the candidates for Contemporary Baseball Era Players Committee consideration. All candidates are living."

On December 3, a whole heckuva lot of Albert Belle, Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens, Don Mattingly, Fred McGriff, Dale Murphy, Rafael Palmeiro and Curt Schilling rookie cards are going to be bought up on eBay.

I myself bought a bunch of Albert belle score traded for dirt cheap

Curt Schilling’s rookie might rise all the way to some sales at 75 cents for a week.

Maybe the ONLY time a what if purchase might work out for me. MAYBE:

https://live.staticflickr.com/4712/3...f8fa35f47a.jpg

we should do a HOF poll on net54 not sure how to start it

The 16 voters are players: Chipper Jones, Greg Maddux, Jack Morris, Ryne Sandberg, Lee Smith, Frank Thomas, and Alan Trammell,; Executives Paul Beeston, Theo Epstein, Arte Moreno, Kim Ng, Dave St. Peter, and Ken Williams; and historian/experts: Steve Hirdt, LaVelle Neal and Susan Slusser.

Some of those on this list (Sandberg, Thomas, Morris, and Williams etc) are on the record that they would never support PED candidates. That makes Bonds, Clemens and Palmeiro long shots.

Schilling has been a pretty terrible person since he finished his career. He alienated/insulted the writers when they were voting. He's probably got a good shot with this group unless they are worried about what he will say at his induction and that it might degrade the event and the HOF in general.

I also think McGriff has good odds with this electorate.

My choices would be Bonds, Clemens, and Palmeiro, in that order.
They are all solid candidates and none of them would meaningfully diminish the caliber of HOF.

Copied directly from the BBWAA web site regarding HOF election requirements:

Voting — Voting shall be based upon the player’s record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played.

I can already hear it - then how did "so and so" get in? Perhaps that person was voted in at a time when "standards" regarding the criteria were not under the proverbial microscope as they are today.

I think what hurts a lot of PED users was the denial and outright lying they did. When testifying to congress about PED use, isn't it not a good thing when you get caught in that lie? If they start letting PED users in, then they should start with McGwire, because at least he told the truth about his PED use.

The one criteria each of the PED users qualifies for is "the players record". Each of those PED users have great stats they probably would not have achieved without the PEDs. In some cases like Bonds and Clemens, it's a shame because those guys were on track to have great careers without the PEDs.

Maybe Jack Morris should vote himself out.

I would support that, and a few others too, in order for real HOF caliber players to get in.

Really, though, it's a wonderful upstate New York setting, and I'm sure a wonderful place to visit and all, but does anyone really give a good hoot about the HOF anymore, considering the recent admissions and continued oversights?

The Hall of jacked-up, hyped-up, influenced, irrelevant, statistical Mediocrity.

It’s just a fun exercise in debate and statistics. The museum is a ton of fun, if you’ve never been, regardless of one’s opinion on who should or should not be enshrined. The town around it has shaped itself to the Hall and lots of it is (or at least was) baseball themed and a fun time. It’s set in a myth with a dubious list, but it’s still the coolest baseball place there is to visit. I would really like to see the Negro League Hall in Kansas City too but I’ve never had much else to do there to make the flight.

People talk about this like it's a new problem, but it's been like that since before I was born, and I'm not young.

Well, they've got a big thee a ter that they call the bur lee q. You should go.

So, think we'll find out if Morris voted for Schilling or not, who's a far more worthy Hall of Famer than Morris himself? It'd be a real lack of self awareness if he doesn't. :)

The Morris select felt at the time like a big "FU" to the analytics crowd. After all, he had the "most wins of the 80's" and could "pitch the the score". Glad the consensus now is that he's a bad selection.

And I will say, even if you avoided the hall of plagues on principle, the Hall if still a pretty amazing place to visit. Highly recommend it to anyone who hasn't been!

Oh, and don't forget he was a "big game" pitcher.

Schilling
 

Should get in. Off the field carries very low weight (or should).

McGriff is in.

Welcome to the Hall Crime Dog!

McGriff was definitely the most likely to get elected this cycle, but it's a bit surprising that Mattingly was #2, one vote ahead of Schilling.

What a joke.

Ya think?

Ortiz, who failed a test and admitted it, gets in. Bonds and Clemens and Palmeiro are blocked for the same offense (but with less evidence for 2 of them) by both avenues. They apparently got between 0 and 3 votes here. This is so obviously stupid. The Hall manages to sink lower even after voting in Baines. This is no surprise at all, but it should have been an easy layup.

But he such a lovable guy and the northeast media loves him!

Indeed. And don't even get me started on why we're fine with a generation of amphetamine users. Oh right, they don't enhance performance, forgot.

Weren't Bonds and Clemens near 70 percent with the writers? WTF is with this sanctimonious group? Scared of Frank Thomas? And how do 12 of these clowns not recognize Schilling? The irony, with Schilling being a much better pitcher than Morris.

The Baseball Hall Of Mediocrity. No relevance, no credibility. Again, who gives a good hoot...

It’s a closed door vote among an old boys club. I would never expect a good, honest, fair or reasoned outcome. It’s as if it was designed to be corrupt. Schilling will clearly be kept out for being too disagreeable to the party, and roiders evaluated based on who likes them and not what they did. Neither is a surprise, but it is blatantly absurd and corrupt.

On their last ballot, Bonds was at 66.0% and Clemens was at 65.2%. It seems to show what former players think of steroid users and their interest in putting them in the Hall of Fame, and it's a lot lower than the writers as of now. At least Bud Selig wasn't one of the voters. I guess that would be too much hypocrisy even for baseball.

I'm very disappointed Schilling didn't make it.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...9b38273f53.jpg

I went two months ago. I stood at this wall for 10 minutes just staring

Regardless of one's perspective on Bonds, Clemens, Palmiero, Sosa, etc., this vote was the death knell for their HOF chances.

Or Tony LaRussa, who (stupidly) is in the Hall as the #1 'Roid Manager of all-time. Both his A's and Cardinals teams featured more steroid users than any other teams of the era. He knew 100% what was going on. But I guess that's okay if you are the Manager, rather than a player.

I hope so.

Along with Manny and ARod. No way the writers are putting them in and looks like the will do even worse once they are on any of the committee ballots.

Some Rangers teams are in that conversation.

Agreed! Well deserved.

I agree.....just absurd. He's carrying the Hodges torch now as being the player with the highest % from the BBWAA voting not elected.

Fred McGriff was McGreat and about time he got in.:)

22nd ranked pitcher by JAWS. I don't understand the vote, who cares about the personal stuff, he didn't kill anyone or advocate harming anyone, did he?

Originally Posted by mattsey9 View Post
Regardless of one's perspective on Bonds, Clemens, Palmiero, Sosa, etc., this vote was the death knell for their HOF chances.

-----
It certainly doesn't bode well for them but some other group of 16 "committee members" could feel differently. This group was stacked against them -- voters like Sandberg Thomas and Morris who were on the record as despising any and all alleged PED users.
As some have suggested the proper remedy is to have a committee tasked with assessing "PED/Selig era" players make some sort of informed recommendations.
I find the sanctimoniousness of the voters on this issue a bit much at times. It's not like the Hall of Fame has ever been populated by those who were above cheating and taking advantage of loopholes to play their best and win at whatever cost.
Go back to Pud Galvin and his primitive PEDs....
https://bleacherreport.com/articles/...her-of-juicing
... This week the great Gaylord Perry passed. He is all-but-celebrated for cheating (being called "crafty" which is admirable). I think Perry is a HOFer but what did Barry Bonds do that makes him so much worse.? He (allegedly I am compelled to write) unknowingly took "supplements" that enabled him to work out harder, prolong an already great career and commit the sin of being so damn good that he virtually obliterated the record books.
Likely David Ortiz did much the same (to a lesser degree and with less stunning results). But people like the beloved "Big Papi" and not the surly Bonds. I fear that to a degree that's really what's going on.

He retweeted a meme! And lost his money when his business failed! Cancel.

For what it's worth, the Hall, love or dislike it, is an integral part of baseball and hence affects the hobby.

Did people see the recent Willie Mays documentary? The surly Barry Bonds was quite affable.

The guy literally has a nazi memorabilia collection. I’m not crying that he’s not in.

Remember, I was the only guy advocating the 3 M’s as my top 3 choices: McGriff, Mattingly and Murphy. Just about had all three exactly right except that Schilling snook in one vote ahead of Murphy. No baggage wins out over pure numbers. Not surprising but again, would not have been the way I voted.

I wonder if this is why McGwire was not part of this current contemporary group. When this committee next meets, maybe they can then easily ignore Bonds, Clemens, and Palmiero and leave them off the next ballot for consideration since they did so poorly this time, and instead put someone like McGwire up for consideration in their place. That way even more time has passed, and maybe there aren't as many selection committee members in the next group that are so vehemently against any PED use whatsoever. Wouldn't put it past the powers that be to do something like that to possibly give McGwire a better chance.

Had they included McGwire in this current contemporary group being considered, alongside Bonds, Clemens, and Palmiero, can definitely see that killing his chances as some committee members would not likely ever vote for McGwire, while not voting for any of the others, without them being somewhat perceived as hypocrites.

Just "retweeted a meme". Lol, you are precious.

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Posted by BobC: I wonder if this is why McGwire was not part of this current contemporary group. When this committee next meets, maybe they can then easily ignore Bonds, Clemens, and Palmiero and leave them off the next ballot for consideration since they did so poorly this time, and instead put someone like McGwire up for consideration in their place. That way even more time has passed, and maybe there aren't as many selection committee members in the next group that are so vehemently against any PED use whatsoever. Wouldn't put it past the powers that be to do something like that to possibly give McGwire a better chance.

Had they included McGwire in this current contemporary group being considered, alongside Bonds, Clemens, and Palmiero, can definitely see that killing his chances as some committee members would not likely ever vote for McGwire, while not voting for any of the others, without them being somewhat perceived as hypocrites.

========
Yeah it does make sense. I mean why slate Palmeiro and not McGwire and (to a lesser extent) Sosa who are both "liked" ? Sosa and McGwire both outpolled Raffy as recall. The ballot construction is very suspect.
My guess is that Schilling doesn't get votes because people are (legitimately) afraid that he will embarrass the HOF or at least create unnecessary controversies in his induction speech

Peter -- I did see the Mays documentary that presents a very affable and admirable Bonds. It had has even been criticized as "Bonds propaganda" because Mays so clearly wants Bonds (his godson) to be appreciated and to be in the HOF.

He has a WWII collection, which would naturally include Nazi collectibles. Cancel!

That is, very literally, exactly what he did. He retweeted a meme where the punchline of the joke is lynching journalists. “Precious”.

Collect World War II material from all factions? Maybe read books? Have a historical interest? Cancel!

Bonds and Clemens made the choice to cheat the game and the fans. They knew what they did was wrong and they lied about it over and over, and are still lying about it to this day.

They shouldn't expect to be in the Hall of Fame, they don't deserve to be in the Hall. It's not the fault of the voters, the players' own past choices are keeping them out.

Sure, Papi was a media darling and got in, and Reinsdorf coerced the committee to get Selig in, both horrible decisions, but that doesn't mean we should let every snake into the Hall.

The steroid scandal did major damage to the game of baseball. Bonds and Clemens, along with Selig and Reinsdorf, had huge roles in that and we all should be aware of it and not try to rationalize it away.

They cheated and got away with it. Good for them in a sense. They have their records and nobody has taken them away. But that doesn't mean they should be in the Hall of Fame.




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The HOF should be liquidated and a new organization formed. One that sets baselines for automatic induction. This good ol’ boys system is stupid. Pharmaceutical use should never have been tested for in the first place.

Schilling…. If he was a Democrat he would have been a 1st ballot inductee
Bonds…. Knock 20% off his HR totals for PED use and he’s still in the top 10 all time.

Keep it in the same place, keep the real HOFers in, sweep out all the relatively recent BS, and start over...based solely on performance.

The BS has been going on for at least 50 years--not sure if that still counts as recent. Frankie Frisch packed the HOF with his friends in the early 1970s--Jesse Haines, Dave Bankroft, Ross Youngs, Chick Hafey and George "Highpockets" Kelly (who peaked at 1.9% in the BBWAA voting).

Excuse it anyway you choose to but he has made comments as well that make me wonder why someone would be willing to give him the benefit of the doubt. Honestly it’s kind of pathetic. That said about schilling being a piece of trash, and he is, I agree his playing career is hall worthy or at least worth discussing.

It was discussed though. He has repeatedly been found to be unworthy of the Hall. He has had every opportunity to have his case reviewed and voted on. The vote has always been NO.

Opinion stays the same.

Worst HOF of all major sports (and compared to the NBA that's something), getting in means nothing other than you kissed the right ass and had the correct drinking buddies. I would never have a HOF collection because I would prefer to collect better players.

The voting results are exactly what I expect every single year. I will continue to drive right on past Cooperstown.

Do I personally like any of the six players I would have took over any of those elections?

Not a one.

Are they invited to my family Christmas?

Nope, so why do I care. They are the better players.

What benefit of the doubt? He has publicly posted a lot of his collection; the material is of all factions in WWII. The claim he is a Nazi-centric collector with the implication of being some sort of Nazi is false. Attacking people for having an interest in history is pretty stupid.

If the context was his other comments, I would agree. I wish he would shut up. I don’t want to hear about athletes hot political takes. I find murder jokes to be in poor taste from left or right. That doesn’t mean every charge made against the man is true. Schilling has given people plenty of things he actually did to object too; others do not need to be made up.

I don't really see why people keep talking about Schilling in terms of his opinions or past behaviors. He's not in because he's not a HOFer. He had 10 years on the ballot and 10 years's worth of writers didn't pick him. Now he's had another chance and a 16 member committee, made up of people whose political leanings you cannot possibly know, who come from different lanes of baseball, across different generations, including fellow contemporary HOFers; not one group of people has ever come together and elected him.

I don't think it's realistic to suggest he has done one thing, or two things, or three things that have united all these people against him. Maybe they just don't think he's a HOFer and that's why he's not in the HOF. And that's all that these people, an ever changing group of them who have been voting on his candidacy since 2013, have in common.

The one thing I give McGwire credit for is not lying about it. He came clean and didn't implicate anybody else. It was good to see a player owning it and not trying to convince everyone (especially the US congress) otherwise.

I hope McGwire makes it before those other PED players that tried to make us all believe it was their natural ability. Funny how that ability only lasted for all of them during the same time period.

Nothing wrong with being a nice guy. Look at Mariano Rivera, obviously the ultimate nice guy. The first and only 100% first ballot vote getter. I still have a difficult time trying to figure out how some players were not 100% vote recipients.

Someone mentioned Papi and PEDs. Well, what's that tell you? Papi wasn't an ass to the press.

Look at Ted Williams, he wasn't a "press" darling yet they at least had enough respect to vote him with about 93.4% of the vote (oh yeah, no PEDs for Ted).

When did McGwire confess to all his PED use? All I remember is his constantly saying "I am not here to talk about the past" or some silly thing like that.

"He's not in because he's not a HOFer." Circular logic. His numbers and big moments show him as a clear HOFer. He's not in due to politics.

In a nationally televised interview. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3STkQC8pVEE

He did it a long time ago - you can research it on the net. He probably constantly indicated he was not there to talk about the past because he probably felt no need to continually re-hash what he already admitted to. I guess being in the lime light means having to say your sorry a 1,000 times (and then some).

I would imagine it was primarily because he didn't want to either commit perjury or to admit to a federal crime while under oath in front of a committee that was actively looking for a scapegoat.

At least McGwire didn't lie to congress... It took a few years for McGwire to own up to it, but at least he did. I don't think I can recall McGwire flat out denying PED use.

I wasn't criticizing him, he picked the rational choice. He can perjure, become the scapegoat they were looking for and possibly face prosecution, or just deflect. Palmeiro chose perjury, McGwire chose to deflect and pick the safest route. Makes sense. I'd probably do the same.

I'm not aware of any evidence McGriff used that he would need to deny. Not that a denial means anything, I have noticed little correlation between what people say and actual truth.

But that's a really simple thing to say about an ever changing group of people who vote on him. Is it likely that every single group of voters who have voted on Schilling for the past decade and this year all have the same personal politics?

+1 and I totally agree. The Baseball HOF is horrible. Not the brick and mortar, or the setting. The absolutely stupid admissions and glaring oversights that render it totally irrelevant.

Totally irrelevant in what way? The baseball HOF is one of the most difficult in professional sports to get into and one of the few that have no election mandate and has no rules against going years or decades without inducting anyone. Only about 1 percent of all major league players ever are represented in the HOF.

The HOF also represents and preserves the history of women in baseball, the Negro Leagues, barnstorming, baseball abroad, and the executives, announcers, and other baseball personalities that have made the game a game enjoyed in this country by everyone in it for over 150 years. How is that an irrelevant HOF?

If you're trying to defend Fred McGriff and Harold Baines, to the exclusion of players in this era who are truly worthy, conversation over. There's the problem of overlooking Mattingly, Munson, Schilling, Bonds, McGwire, et al, that seem stupid to a lot of people who might otherwise care. Finally, I couldn't care any less about the Pete Rose and Joe Jackson issues. There SEEMS to be some evidence making their gambling offenses appear lesser, and frankly, I couldn't care any less when Hal Chase and Heinie Zimmerman were openly, brazenly conspiring with gangsters and gamblers. I couldn't care any less about steroids, or spitballs, or any of that. I think Riggs Stephenson and Cecil Travis ought to be in. To deny them seems mean spirited. Why did it take so painfully long for Ron Santo and Gil Hodges to get in? Put these other guys in, correct these glaring wrongs in not just my but a whole lot of other people's opinion, and then you'll have a real, no $#it Hall Of Fame.