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Peter_Spaeth 07-24-2019 08:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CuriousGeorge (Post 1902336)
From my vantage point scammers like Brent and Moser will always exist especially in an industry that is not regulated and does not appear to be on any governmental radar to be regulated in the near future. That being said, getting rid of Brent and Moser just gives you personal satisfaction but next month you have Trent and Hoser doing the same thing so you’re back to square one.

To me the bigger question lies with how are these cards getting slabbed by TPG’s? Are they just incompetent, paid off, or what? Why isn’t every card scanned when graded so when it comes back in altered it quickly shows up as previously graded? What responsibility do TPG’s have to honor their guarantees? If they are not and instead are giving people the runaround is someone going to legally challenge them? Is that all in the works? Are attorneys already engaged and preparing lawsuits?

All I know is it’s probably unrealistic to expect that 100% of altered cards are going to get caught by the TPG’s but aren’t we at a point where obviously altered cards are getting through with no issue. Can Brent help shed light on how that is happening? Does he have information that it’s anything other than incompetence? I have no idea but I’d sure like to find out.

And even if it is just incompetence isn’t it time TPG’s shouldn’t be able to hide behind self serving statements? Is someone going to hold them accountable? If there are better mechanisms in place to detect fraud does it ultimately matter if a few cards get through? Does Macy’s know a couple percentage of their sales is going to be lost to various theft? Does that mean that they still don’t do everything they can to stop it? Are TPG’s?

As nauseating as Brent is, who is the bigger problem him or Steve Sloan who is putting out embarrassing statements. Do you think he’s trying to help you?

If in the end Brent can help shed some light on these topics and in return gets treated favorably isn’t that a better result than him going to jail forever and nothing else changing? And in no way am I insinuating any of things are happening or will happen but don’t you think if they could that would be a better result?

Feel free to shoot away.
Steven thank you for these observations. A couple of reactions. One, Brent's bad activities are so diverse and of such long duration that he is not just the fraudster du jour, he may well be the hobby fraudster of all time when all is said and done. So while yes to some extent my belief that he needs to be punished is colored by my personal disgust towards him, I think an important message needs to be sent to everyone else doing similar shit on a smaller scale. If he pays some restitution and walks, that will not send a message, IMO.

Two, that said, I obviously agree with you that PSA and to a lesser extent the other TPGs have been revealed to be a huge part of the problem. And something clearly needs to be done to bust through the veil of secrecy and denial and disingenuous bullshit they and their supporters keep spewing. But -- and obviously you may have insight where I don't -- do you really see Brent being able to take down PSA? I mean if he was buying graders and is going to confess, that would be one thing, but I would find that hard to believe. Interested in your thoughts on how he could do that otherwise.

Kenny Cole 07-24-2019 08:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CuriousGeorge (Post 1902336)
From my vantage point scammers like Brent and Moser will always exist especially in an industry that is not regulated and does not appear to be on any governmental radar to be regulated in the near future. That being said, getting rid of Brent and Moser just gives you personal satisfaction but next month you have Trent and Hoser doing the same thing so you’re back to square one.

To me the bigger question lies with how are these cards getting slabbed by TPG’s? Are they just incompetent, paid off, or what? Why isn’t every card scanned when graded so when it comes back in altered it quickly shows up as previously graded? What responsibility do TPG’s have to honor their guarantees? If they are not and instead are giving people the runaround is someone going to legally challenge them? Is that all in the works? Are attorneys already engaged and preparing lawsuits?

All I know is it’s probably unrealistic to expect that 100% of altered cards are going to get caught by the TPG’s but aren’t we at a point where obviously altered cards are getting through with no issue. Can Brent help shed light on how that is happening? Does he have information that it’s anything other than incompetence? I have no idea but I’d sure like to find out.

And even if it is just incompetence isn’t it time TPG’s shouldn’t be able to hide behind self serving statements? Is someone going to hold them accountable? If there are better mechanisms in place to detect fraud does it ultimately matter if a few cards get through? Does Macy’s know a couple percentage of their sales is going to be lost to various theft? Does that mean that they still don’t do everything they can to stop it? Are TPG’s?

As nauseating as Brent is, who is the bigger problem him or Steve Sloan who is putting out embarrassing statements. Do you think he’s trying to help you?

If in the end Brent can help shed some light on these topics and in return gets treated favorably isn’t that a better result than him going to jail forever and nothing else changing? And in no way am I insinuating any of things are happening or will happen but don’t you think if they could that would be a better result?

Feel free to shoot away.
Interesting. My partners and I were eating lunch yesterday, and we were approached by a lawyer who we are sometimes against, who also sometimes sends us bad faith cases. I went to refill ice tea and when I came back, he asked me what I thought about Beckett. My partners had told him while I was gone that I collected cards. In any event, he asked me what I thought about Beckett and I gave him the short version of what I know was being currently alleged about Beckett's involvement in the scandal. He then told me he was getting ready to sue Beckett over some issues involving that issue. I we shall see if that actually occurs. Since Beckett is diverse, I am assuming that if the suit actually occurs that will be either filed in, or removed to, the U.S. District Court for the Western District of Oklahoma. Perfect venue. :(

vintagetoppsguy 07-24-2019 08:21 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1902332)
El Chapo was not a cooperator. David, stick to what you know.
Are you really a lawyer or are you bullshitting us? Last I read, El Chapo forfeited 14 Billion dollars upon convition.
Congress has always supported the idea that criminal proceeds go to the victims famalies.

I may not be a lawyer, but I obviously know a hell of a lot more than you on this subject. Now, stick to what you know!

CuriousGeorge 07-24-2019 08:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy (Post 1902348)
Are you really a lawyer or are you bullshitting us? Last I read, El Chapo forfeited 14 Billion dollars upon convition.
Congress has always supported the idea that criminal proceeds go to the victims famalies.

I may not be a lawyer, but I obviously know a hell of a lot more than you on this subject. Now, stick to what you know!
You are a complete and utter dope. I can certainly understand where an attorney might have enthusiasm to help the other side when his alternative would be to help you.

Kenny Cole 07-24-2019 08:25 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy (Post 1902348)
Are you really a lawyer or are you bullshitting us? Last I read, El Chapo forfeited 14 Billion dollars upon convition.
Congress has always supported the idea that criminal proceeds go to the victims famalies.

I may not be a lawyer, but I obviously know a hell of a lot more than you on this subject. Now, stick to what you know!
Seriously? There is a forfeiture order. Do you really think that is collectible? Come on. Even you should know better than that.

Peter_Spaeth 07-24-2019 08:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy (Post 1902348)
Are you really a lawyer or are you bullshitting us? Last I read, El Chapo forfeited 14 Billion dollars upon convition.
Congress has always supported the idea that criminal proceeds go to the victims famalies.

I may not be a lawyer, but I obviously know a hell of a lot more than you on this subject. Now, stick to what you know!
I am well aware of the forfeiture. So what? You were talking about Jeff. For a defense lawyer it's a completely different situation representing a cooperator where one of your bargaining chips might be restitution, and defending someone in a trial where it's completely adversarial. Now, back to where you came. Please.

CuriousGeorge 07-24-2019 08:41 PM
For whatever it’s worth there’s a forfeiture in place for $12.7B. Amount collected thus far after years of searching: 0.

Peter_Spaeth 07-24-2019 08:42 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CuriousGeorge (Post 1902359)
For whatever it’s worth there’s a forfeiture in place for $12.7B. Amount collected thus far after years of searching: 0.
That's because Jeff didn't care about the victims and hid it.

vintagetoppsguy 07-24-2019 08:44 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kenny Cole (Post 19023)
Do you really think that is collectible?
Honestly, I don't know. It would seem one of the senators from my home state believes so, go check out the El Chapo Act. Maybe it dies in the senate, maybe not, but again I don't know.

CuriousGeorge 07-24-2019 08:45 PM
Jeffrey stole it and he’s now trying to corner the market on all Ty Cobb cards.

thanksjoe 07-24-2019 08:50 PM
Wow. I didn't know what I was getting myself into by looking into these forums... In any case, I'd say just be careful what you are reading out there. Who the hell knows what is actually true or false.

Kenny Cole 07-24-2019 08:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy (Post 1902364)
Honestly, I don't know. It would seem one of the senators from my home state believes so, go check out the El Chapo Act. Maybe it dies in the senate, maybe not, but again I don't know.
I would suggest that he is probably delusional, but whatever. You do what you think you need to do I suppose.

Mark17 07-24-2019 09:14 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CuriousGeorge (Post 1902366)
Jeffrey stole it and he’s now trying to corner the market on all Ty Cobb cards.
Is he asking his client which Cobbs might be altered, so as not to buy those?

CuriousGeorge 07-24-2019 09:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark17 (Post 1902379)
Is he asking his client which Cobbs might be altered, so as not to buy those?
Now he’s buying all Cobbs because with 12B he doesn’t mind if he gets beaten on a few.

CuriousGeorge 07-24-2019 09:37 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1902344)
Steven thank you for these observations. A couple of reactions. One, Brent's bad activities are so diverse and of such long duration that he is not just the fraudster du jour, he may well be the hobby fraudster of all time when all is said and done. So while yes to some extent my belief that he needs to be punished is colored by my personal disgust towards him, I think an important message needs to be sent to everyone else doing similar shit on a smaller scale. If he pays some restitution and walks, that will not send a message, IMO.

Two, that said, I obviously agree with you that PSA and to a lesser extent the other TPGs have been revealed to be a huge part of the problem. And something clearly needs to be done to bust through the veil of secrecy and denial and disingenuous bullshit they and their supporters keep spewing. But -- and obviously you may have insight where I don't -- do you really see Brent being able to take down PSA? I mean if he was buying graders and is going to confess, that would be one thing, but I would find that hard to believe. Interested in your thoughts on how he could do that otherwise.
Peter, you’re an attorney and must have much more of an ability than someone like I do to look through the forest and see the bigger picture. While we all want to see Brent rot in hell, if we take a step back whether we are buying $20 cards, $200, $2000, $20,000, $200,000 or whatever, we want to feel confident we’re getting what we paid for. As a novice collector I relied on those slabs to guide me, foolishly thinking TPG’s were there to protect me and the investment (cringe) I was making. Obviously I was wrong.

Now I don’t know what Brent knows or doesn’t know. Does he have something on TPG’s or are they just incompetent? If they’re just incompetent are we just supposed to accept that or are there things that can happen to make them accountable for their actions? I know everyone believes this is going to be like every other time something like this has happened in the industry but I don’t believe it will be. It’s only been a couple of months and far more has happened than anyone could have imagined and yet it’s still met with plenty of ambivalence and scorn. It’s a tough crowd to please because we all want it both ways: the perpetrators to pay the maximum price and the problem (grading cards properly) to get improved. Only time will tell how it all will play out but I think if we can somehow look at it objectively, winning one of the battles has far more value than the other. Again, tough to do, but the bigger picture is far more important.

Peter_Spaeth 07-24-2019 09:45 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CuriousGeorge (Post 1902392)
Peter, you’re an attorney and must have much more of an ability than someone like I do to look through the forest and see the bigger picture. While we all want to see Brent rot in hell, if we take a step back whether we are buying $20 cards, $200, $2000, $20,000, $200,000 or whatever, we want to feel confident we’re getting what we paid for. As a novice collector I relied on those slabs to guide me, foolishly thinking TPG’s were there to protect me and the investment (cringe) I was making. Obviously I was wrong.

Now I don’t know what Brent knows or doesn’t know. Does he have something on TPG’s or are they just incompetent? If they’re just incompetent are we just supposed to accept that or are there things that can happen to make them accountable for their actions? I know everyone believes this is going to be like every other time something like this has happened in the industry but I don’t believe it will be. It’s only been a couple of months and far more has happened than anyone could have imagined and yet it’s still met with plenty of ambivalence and scorn. It’s a tough crowd to please because we all want it both ways: the perpetrators to pay the maximum price and the problem (grading cards properly) to get improved. Only time will tell how it all will play out but I think if we can somehow look at it objectively, winning one of the battles has far more value than the other. Again, tough to do, but the bigger picture is far more important.
Steven I'll accept your premise that PSA is the bigger problem, or the TPGs as a whole. Especially after Orlando's statement today I could not be more disgusted with PSA. It was far worse than Sloan's. And of course I understand that in many cases the government will make a relatively soft deal with a cooperator to get at the more important criminal. I'm just not seeing how going easy on Brent helps the goal of going after PSA. But I'll reflect on it.

One footnote though -- it still takes card doctors and their enablers to bring these cards to market. So it's not like the biggest seller of doctored cards on the planet, and card uhh uhhh conservator himself, isn't still a huge problem.

Mark17 07-24-2019 09:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CuriousGeorge (Post 1902392)
Only time will tell how it all will play out but I think if we can somehow look at it objectively, winning one of the battles has far more value than the other. Again, tough to do, but the bigger picture is far more important.
Suppose, hypothetically, you have people deliberately committing fraud and making huge amounts of money by purposely altering cards and then selling them (at inflated prices) into the mainstream of the hobby, most to never be identified as altered, and on the other hand, you have a few TPG who miss some alterations now and then, which battle is more important to win? Nailing the people who are knowingly initiating this whole mess by committing fraud, or the TPGs who try their best, but sometimes let bad cards through?

It would be nice if the TPG were perfect, but at least they are honestly trying. There is nothing honest about those who are altering and selling cards for fun and profit. Beating the criminals is the battle to win.

CuriousGeorge 07-24-2019 09:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1902393)
Steven I'll accept your premise that PSA is the bigger problem, or the TPGs as a whole. Especially after Orlando's statement today I could not be more disgusted with PSA. It was far worse than Sloan's. And of course I understand that in many cases the government will make a relatively soft deal with a cooperator to get at the more important criminal. I'm just not seeing how going easy on Brent helps the goal of going after PSA. But I'll reflect on it.

One footnote though -- it still takes card doctors and their enablers to bring these cards to market. So it's not like the biggest seller of doctored cards on the planet, and card uhh uhhh conservator himself, isn't still a huge problem.
Unfortunately I think without regulation there will always be scum like Brent and Moser gaming the system. I can almost assure you that down the road regulation will be there but it might be many years and often when the government gets involved it becomes be careful what you wish for.

For me I know I would love to hear what Brent and Moser have to say about TPG’s. While they are garden variety scammers, I think ultimately TPG’s are the far bigger problem. Why more venom isn’t going towards them and instead to Brent is actually a little head scratching? CLCT stock has actually gone up since this all began. Shows you how worried investors are about what’s happening.

Johnny630 07-24-2019 09:55 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark17 (Post 1902394)
Suppose, hypothetically, you have people deliberately committing fraud and making huge amounts of money by purposely altering cards and then selling them (at inflated prices) into the mainstream of the hobby, most to never be identified as altered, and on the other hand, you have a few TPG who miss some alterations now and then, which battle is more important to win? Nailing the people who are knowingly initiating this whole mess by committing fraud, or the TPGs who try their best, but sometimes let bad cards through?

It would be nice if the TPG were perfect, but at least they are honestly trying. There is nothing honest about those who are altering and selling cards for fun and profit. Beating the criminals is the battle to win.
Mark at this point along through this mess what makes you think PSA is obviously trying? Have you seen below one amongst many blatantly obvious altered cards...

Orlando doesn’t care what anyone thinks his opinion givers are just giving a opinion us suckers are the ones paying for it.

That’s the way I take it in reading his latest statement...please see Ruth 144 Below...you tell me ...this is one of many

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?p=14874068

Mark17 07-24-2019 10:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny630 (Post 1902396)
Mark at this point along through this mess what makes you think PSA is obviously trying? Have you seen below one amongst many blatantly obvious altered cards...

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?p=14874068
I see how the card doctors make money by altering and then selling cards. Unless and until I see evidence of some sort of kickbacks being paid by card doctors/sellers to PSA personnel, I do not see how PSA, or any of the TPG companies, benefit by missing altered cards.

Johnny630 07-24-2019 10:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark17 (Post 1902399)
I see how the card doctors make money by altering and then selling cards. Unless and until I see evidence of some sort of kickbacks being paid by card doctors/sellers to PSA personnel, I do not see how PSA, or any of the TPG companies, benefit by missing altered cards.
The point I’m making is they, PSA, doesn’t give a shit Mark !

They want you to accept it and get over or crack and resubmit so they make more money....

All the more accommodating to the bad actors doing crap to cards ....they’re not making it more difficulty they’re leaving the door wide open ....

They’re nothing but a irrelevant opining giving company that’s it...take Away their registry and they’re not taking as arrogantly

Mark17 07-24-2019 10:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny630 (Post 1902403)
All the more accommodating to the bad actors doing crap to cards ....they’re not making it more difficulty they’re leaving the door wide open ....
If I leave the door of my house wide open and somebody walks in and robs me, that makes me careless and the other guy a thief. Which is worse?

Johnny630 07-24-2019 10:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark17 (Post 1902404)
If I leave the door of my house wide open and somebody walks in and robs me, that makes me careless and the other guy a thief. Which is worse?
I’m not gonna argue with you it’s like talking to a brick wall.

Mark17 07-24-2019 10:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny630 (Post 1902405)
I’m not gonna argue with you it’s like talking to a brick wall.
I'm not a huge fan of TPG but when you put them next to outright criminals who are profiting hugely by creating this mess in the first place, it seems rather obvious which is the bigger problem.

Brick wall, indeed!

Kenny Cole 07-24-2019 10:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Johnny630 (Post 1902403)
The point I’m making is they, PSA, doesn’t give a shit Mark !

They want you to accept it and get over or crack and resubmit so they make more money....

All the more accommodating to the bad actors doing crap to cards ....they’re not making it more difficulty they’re leaving the door wide open ....

They’re nothing but a irrelevant opining giving company that’s it...take Away their registry and they’re not taking as arrogantly
As has previously been stated multiple times, way too many people are more interested in the grade than in the card. If you are a predator, it is generally safe to rely on human nature. Sad to say, but true. LOOK at the fuc@@ng cards, not the grade on the slab. How about we start there? It will certainly at least slow things down, although I am the first to admit that it will not stop it. Baby steps. At this point, that's what we have.

frankbmd 07-24-2019 10:34 PM
“I like this place and willingly could waste my time in it.”

“I’m Curious George, no you’re Curious George.”

Yogi Bear doth protest too much, methinks.”

griffon512 07-24-2019 10:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark17 (Post 1902399)
I see how the card doctors make money by altering and then selling cards. Unless and until I see evidence of some sort of kickbacks being paid by card doctors/sellers to PSA personnel, I do not see how PSA, or any of the TPG companies, benefit by missing altered cards.
they benefit by maximizing profit through spending a very limited amount of time evaluating every card. it's a winning strategy over the short term and potentially the long term unless individuals or a system hold them accountable.

perezfan 07-25-2019 12:09 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by griffon512 (Post 1902412)
they benefit by maximizing profit through spending a very limited amount of time evaluating every card. it's a winning strategy over the short term and potentially the long term unless individuals or a system hold them accountable.
Completely agree...

PSA benefits tremendously by wrongly assigning numerical grades to altered cards. Without the huge increase in dollars realized for a single numerical bump, the Doctors would not be producing and submitting these forgeries in such massive numbers. They are rewarded with such a huge pot of gold at the end of the "TPG Rainbow", that their submissions just keep pouring in... thus benefitting PSA.

Erroneous grading and bumping is what motivates the card doctors to continue and enables them to thrive. It creates a corrupt revenue stream in the form of a "golden triangle"... A perfect equilateral, with Card Doctor, Auction House, and TPG representing the 3 points. Go ahead and throw in eBay, if you want to make the shape of corruption a square.

The only one not included in all of this money-making geometric fun is the poor shlub who gets burned by the slabbed card.

ullmandds 07-25-2019 05:14 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by perezfan (Post 1902415)
Completely agree...

PSA benefits tremendously by wrongly assigning numerical grades to altered cards. Without the huge increase in dollars realized for a single numerical bump, the Doctors would not be producing and submitting these forgeries in such massive numbers. They are rewarded with such a huge pot of gold at the end of the "TPG Rainbow", that their submissions just keep pouring in... thus benefitting PSA.

Erroneous grading and bumping is what motivates the card doctors to continue and enables them to thrive. It creates a corrupt revenue stream in the form of a "golden triangle"... A perfect equilateral, with Card Doctor, Auction House, and TPG representing the 3 points. Go ahead and throw in eBay, if you want to make the shape of corruption a square.

The only one not included in all of this money-making geometric fun is the poor shlub who gets burned by the slabbed card.
Joe O's lameass statement/response is basically calling people stupid for spending ridiculous amounts of money for their assessments resulting in uber high grade cards.

If you want to "NOT BE CHEATED"...basically dont trust PSA. Joe said it himself!

Peter_Spaeth 07-25-2019 05:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ullmandds (Post 1902425)
Joe O's lameass statement/response is basically calling people stupid for spending ridiculous amounts of money for their assessments resulting in uber high grade cards.

If you want to "NOT BE CHEATED"...basically dont trust PSA. Joe said it himself!
And blaming the people outing altered cards for spreading fear.

Peter_Spaeth 07-25-2019 05:29 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark17 (Post 1902406)
I'm not a huge fan of TPG but when you put them next to outright criminals who are profiting hugely by creating this mess in the first place, it seems rather obvious which is the bigger problem.

Brick wall, indeed!
That was my initial perspective. I always knew TPGs missed a lot, but I attributed that mostly to the skill of the card doctors. I have suspected TPGs of preferential grading for a long time, but not being complicit in slabbing bad cards.

After what I've seen, and knowing that outed Moser-Huigens cards are just the tip of the iceberg, and seeing the nonsense that has come out of PSA in the form of Sloan's and Orlando's statements, my perspective has changed. PSA, in my opinion, is a huge part of the problem, and I no longer trust their good faith. I'm not letting the others off the hook, just that SGC has a small relative market share and I don't care about Beckett. Nothing would surprise me at this point.

barrysloate 07-25-2019 05:41 AM
I've said it before and will repeat: I don't think PSA really minds a proliferation of high grade cards in circulation. The set registry is their bread and butter, and you need a large population of high grade cards so that everybody can play. Perhaps it's in their best interest to turn a blind eye to all these altered cards. If high grade cards were genuinely hard to find, it would hurt the registry game.

Mark17 07-25-2019 06:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1902428)
That was my initial perspective. I always knew TPGs missed a lot, but I attributed that mostly to the skill of the card doctors. I have suspected TPGs of preferential grading for a long time, but not being complicit in slabbing bad cards.

After what I've seen, and knowing that outed Moser-Huigens cards are just the tip of the iceberg, and seeing the nonsense that has come out of PSA in the form of Sloan's and Orlando's statements, my perspective has changed. PSA, in my opinion, is a huge part of the problem, and I no longer trust their good faith. I'm not letting the others off the hook, just that SGC has a small relative market share and I don't care about Beckett. Nothing would surprise me at this point.
Peter, after a lengthy debate awhile ago regarding the criminality of the actions of card doctors, I concluded you were correct, and you won me over to your way of looking at it.

I leave the door open to the possibility that as this plays out, I may also conclude that PSA is more culpable in this mess than I currently believe.

This is the process I like about these chat boards... they help my thinking evolve.

I have my popcorn; let the next act of this opera begin.

Johnny630 07-25-2019 06:24 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ullmandds (Post 1902425)
Joe O's lameass statement/response is basically calling people stupid for spending ridiculous amounts of money for their assessments resulting in uber high grade cards.

If you want to "NOT BE CHEATED"...basically dont trust PSA. Joe said it himself!
Exactly +1

Johnny630 07-25-2019 06:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1902428)
That was my initial perspective. I always knew TPGs missed a lot, but I attributed that mostly to the skill of the card doctors. I have suspected TPGs of preferential grading for a long time, but not being complicit in slabbing bad cards.

After what I've seen, and knowing that outed Moser-Huigens cards are just the tip of the iceberg, and seeing the nonsense that has come out of PSA in the form of Sloan's and Orlando's statements, my perspective has changed. PSA, in my opinion, is a huge part of the problem, and I no longer trust their good faith. I'm not letting the others off the hook, just that SGC has a small relative market share and I don't care about Beckett. Nothing would surprise me at this point.
+1 been saying for the past few months 100% agree Peter

Peter_Spaeth 07-25-2019 06:40 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark17 (Post 1902440)
Peter, after a lengthy debate awhile ago regarding the criminality of the actions of card doctors, I concluded you were correct, and you won me over to your way of looking at it.

I leave the door open to the possibility that as this plays out, I may also conclude that PSA is more culpable in this mess than I currently believe.

This is the process I like about these chat boards... they help my thinking evolve.

I have my popcorn; let the next act of this opera begin.
As the pile of altered cards in slabs gets higher and higher, and I extrapolate to what the real pile must look like, and I see PSA's comments, I just have a harder and harder time buying the good faith theory that I know I was espousing myself earlier.

ullmandds 07-25-2019 06:42 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1902447)
As the pile of altered cards in slabs gets higher and higher, and I extrapolate to what the real pile must look like, and I see PSA's comments, I just have a harder and harder time buying the good faith theory that I know I was espousing myself earlier.
The problem lies with the masses who either don't know what's going on or don't care!

Johnny630 07-25-2019 06:45 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ullmandds (Post 1902448)
The problem lies with the masses who either don't know what's going on or don't care!
Big problem!! I’ve been trying to sound the alarm for months with little to nail avail, except the good amount of smart guys on this board.

I feel bad Because many honest people inherently want to trust/believe . They believe their cards are good in PSA holders.....they’re taken aback about It because it’s been beaten into them that cards in their holders bring
The most money. PSA is Number 1 most trusted.....oh bull S$$t. I hope the market corrects that way of thinking with the recent outings and media attention. I have my doubts....as you said many don’t get it or care.

The ones that don’t care are the people with millions vested in their slabbed cards altered and unaltered with number graded.
If PSA didn’t have the registry they wouldn’t be as blatantly arrogant.

Paul S 07-25-2019 06:57 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1902316)
Bleach, to thy work.
Betsy, get thee to a nunnery!

Buythatcard 07-25-2019 07:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by guy3050 (Post 1902266)
This was great.

1952boyntoncollector 07-25-2019 07:48 AM
Lots of lawyers have said lots of things on facebook/social media etc prior to trials, yet you never hear anything about in any trials because its means zero...lets stop debating that issue.

I wonder if any ex employees of PSA the last few months have any info..

Peter_Spaeth 07-25-2019 07:53 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector (Post 1902464)
Lots of lawyers have said lots of things on facebook/social media etc prior to trials, yet you never hear anything about in any trials because its means zero...lets stop debating that issue.

I wonder if any ex employees of PSA the last few months have any info..
I would guess all PSA graders and former graders and other employees have NDAs. That said, I would imagine that if there has been anything untoward going on over the years, a grader blowing the whistle could be a major area of vulnerability. As I've said, at this point, nothing would surprise me.

slidekellyslide 07-25-2019 08:10 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1902428)
That was my initial perspective. I always knew TPGs missed a lot, but I attributed that mostly to the skill of the card doctors. I have suspected TPGs of preferential grading for a long time, but not being complicit in slabbing bad cards.

After what I've seen, and knowing that outed Moser-Huigens cards are just the tip of the iceberg, and seeing the nonsense that has come out of PSA in the form of Sloan's and Orlando's statements, my perspective has changed. PSA, in my opinion, is a huge part of the problem, and I no longer trust their good faith. I'm not letting the others off the hook, just that SGC has a small relative market share and I don't care about Beckett. Nothing would surprise me at this point.
Why would you not care about Beckett? There is likely more evidence they have someone inside giving preferential treatment than there is at PSA.

Peter_Spaeth 07-25-2019 08:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by slidekellyslide (Post 1902468)
Why would you not care about Beckett? There is likely more evidence they have someone inside giving preferential treatment than there is at PSA.
Just a selfish perspective I guess, I only have a few Beckett cards and doubt I would buy any more except cheap modern ones. It would not surprise me at all if they were the most tainted of all though in light of what I've read.

Fuddjcal 07-25-2019 09:21 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CuriousGeorge (Post 1902321)
Chuck, I totally understand that it feels very tough to accept but is the goal to punish Brent to the fullest extent the government wants to (and who knows what that is if anything?) or is it to try and solve the bigger problem and in addition try to get those affected their money back?
I want that website and his business SHUTDOWN and him kicked out of the hobby. I also would like him to face tax evasion charges. Your brother is not a tax attorney so he'll need someone else for that too. The hobby is and will be infected with 100's of thousands of tainted cards, IMHO.

Jeff ain't FIXIN nuttin PERIOD

Peter_Spaeth 07-25-2019 09:31 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuddjcal (Post 1902486)
I want that website and his business SHUTDOWN and him kicked out of the hobby. I also would like him to face tax evasion charges. Your brother is not a tax attorney so he'll need someone else for that too. The hobby is and will be infected with 100's of thousands of tainted cards, IMHO.

Jeff ain't FIXIN nuttin PERIOD
My understanding is that unlike in the securities area where the government has specific authority to seek relief barring people from the securities industry or barring individuals who commit securities fraud from serving as officers of publicly traded companies, the government does not have similar authority in other lines of business. It would have to be part of a plea bargain, and seems unlikely here.

Peter_Spaeth 07-25-2019 09:34 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuddjcal (Post 1902486)
I want that website and his business SHUTDOWN and him kicked out of the hobby. I also would like him to face tax evasion charges. Your brother is not a tax attorney so he'll need someone else for that too. The hobby is and will be infected with 100's of thousands of tainted cards, IMHO.

Jeff ain't FIXIN nuttin PERIOD
If he is in fact selling the promissory notes described on his website, and has not (as has been claimed) registered them with the SEC, he may also be involved in the unlawful sale of unregistered securities as they would appear to be above the regulatory threshold.

judsonhamlin 07-25-2019 09:43 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1902493)
My understanding is that unlike in the securities area where the government has specific authority to seek relief barring people from the securities industry or barring individuals who commit securities fraud from serving as officers of publicly traded companies, the government does not have similar authority in other lines of business. It would have to be part of a plea bargain, and seems unlikely here.
Wouldn't any revocation of his Auctioneer's License have to either be a condition of a plea or upon independent action by the Oregon AG/Dep't. Of State/other licensing agency?
Has anyone reached out to the State of Oregon on this?

Exhibitman 07-25-2019 09:44 AM
I don't necessarily fault a TPG for innocently getting beat on some of the cards we have seen; the work is pretty good. I fault PSA 100% for not stepping up and telling everyone who has been victimized that PSA will stand by its work and its guarantee without reservation if the seller does not make restitution. Instead we get these asshat responses that alternate between disclaimers and fear-mongering. Oohhh, I am so scared to return to the old days of looking at cards myself instead of relying on a demonstrably unreliable service to look at them for me and give me an opinion it will not stand behind anyway.

If PSA was an umpire MLB would have kicked it to the curb for all these blown calls.

perezfan 07-25-2019 10:02 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1902426)
And blaming the people outing altered cards for spreading fear.
Yes, that too...

What a self-serving piece of sh*t statement. Their word is the word of God.

nolemmings 07-25-2019 10:04 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Exhibitman (Post 1902498)
I don't necessarily fault a TPG for innocently getting beat on some of the cards we have seen; the work is pretty good. I fault PSA 100% for not stepping up and telling everyone who has been victimized that PSA will stand by its work and its guarantee without reservation if the seller does not make restitution. Instead we get these asshat responses that alternate between disclaimers and fear-mongering. Oohhh, I am so scared to return to the old days of looking at cards myself instead of relying on a demonstrably unreliable service to look at them for me and give me an opinion it will not stand behind anyway.

If PSA was an umpire MLB would have kicked it to the curb for all these blown calls.
I agree except for the last line. I would introduce the work of Angel Hernandez as Exhibit "A" in rebuttal.

Jeffrompa 07-25-2019 10:04 AM
I haven't posted for 2 years
 
I haven't posted in 3 years ( until the other day ) . PWCC has drawn out all the sewer rats . PSA is not going to give a crap until the Feds come to the door . If they haven't already .

Peter_Spaeth 07-25-2019 10:08 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by judsonhamlin (Post 1902496)
Wouldn't any revocation of his Auctioneer's License have to either be a condition of a plea or upon independent action by the Oregon AG/Dep't. Of State/other licensing agency?
Has anyone reached out to the State of Oregon on this?
No response from Oregon, according to someone who reached out some time ago.

slidekellyslide 07-25-2019 10:35 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by judsonhamlin (Post 1902496)
Wouldn't any revocation of his Auctioneer's License have to either be a condition of a plea or upon independent action by the Oregon AG/Dep't. Of State/other licensing agency?
Has anyone reached out to the State of Oregon on this?
Does he do auctioneering beyond ebay? Nobody needs a license to auction items off on ebay.

slidekellyslide 07-25-2019 10:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1902508)
No response from Oregon, according to someone who reached out some time ago.
A quick google search indicates you only need an auction license for certain types of items in Oregon. Liquor and livestock.

Aquarian Sports Cards 07-25-2019 12:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark17 (Post 1902440)
Peter, after a lengthy debate awhile ago regarding the criminality of the actions of card doctors, I concluded you were correct, and you won me over to your way of looking at it.

I leave the door open to the possibility that as this plays out, I may also conclude that PSA is more culpable in this mess than I currently believe.

This is the process I like about these chat boards... they help my thinking evolve.

I have my popcorn; let the next act of this opera begin.
How dare you keep an open mind...

Aquarian Sports Cards 07-25-2019 12:13 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1902467)
I would guess all PSA graders and former graders and other employees have NDAs. That said, I would imagine that if there has been anything untoward going on over the years, a grader blowing the whistle could be a major area of vulnerability. As I've said, at this point, nothing would surprise me.
I don't know, but I imagine a court order (supboena, I imagine) outweighs an NDA. IS that correct?

Aquarian Sports Cards 07-25-2019 12:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by judsonhamlin (Post 1902496)
Wouldn't any revocation of his Auctioneer's License have to either be a condition of a plea or upon independent action by the Oregon AG/Dep't. Of State/other licensing agency?
Has anyone reached out to the State of Oregon on this?
Oregon only requires a license for certain types of auctions (livestock is one) I imagine Brent is not a licensed auctioneer.

EDIT: Dan beat me to it.

Aquarian Sports Cards 07-25-2019 12:18 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by slidekellyslide (Post 1902518)
Does he do auctioneering beyond ebay? Nobody needs a license to auction items off on ebay.
Not quite that black and white. If you are a registered business using ebay as an auction platform to sell consigned goods in PA you are supposed to have a license. I am sure some other states are similar, and I'm sure it gets ignored, a LOT.

steve B 07-25-2019 12:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by asphaltman (Post 1902158)
Steven - Jeff is a defense attorney....wouldn’t it be accurate to say more often then not he and every other defense attorney deals mostly with slime balls and not that small field of “wrongly accused innocent victims”? A potential client called Jeff and offered him a job and Jeff took it. Not really any different then the rest of us that profit off someone through work that we think is a jerk.
Yep, when customers are slime, taking their money is the best possible comeback. Except maybe sending them to the shop up the street so they can be the competitions problem.

steve B 07-25-2019 12:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by vintagetoppsguy (Post 1902175)
A scummy tabloid? Ok, would you like to read it from another source?

https://www.barstoolsports.com/barst...-bernie-madoff

What exactly are you saying, Peter? That these text exchanges never took place? Read the linked article. It gives even more detail about the texts.
All that left me with are questions.

Like why is someone who swiped millions from her business staying in a $99 hotel room and ordering cheap pizza?

And just where the _ can you find a $99 hotel room?

steve B 07-25-2019 01:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1902467)
I would guess all PSA graders and former graders and other employees have NDAs. That said, I would imagine that if there has been anything untoward going on over the years, a grader blowing the whistle could be a major area of vulnerability. As I've said, at this point, nothing would surprise me.
That makes me curious... could an ex PSA employee with an NDA successfully use that as an excuse to not answer questions from the FBI?

Or would that be more of a 5th amendment thing?

I'm thinking that wouldn't be taken well at all...

WhenItWasAHobby 07-25-2019 01:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1902393)
Steven I'll accept your premise that PSA is the bigger problem, or the TPGs as a whole. Especially after Orlando's statement today I could not be more disgusted with PSA. It was far worse than Sloan's. And of course I understand that in many cases the government will make a relatively soft deal with a cooperator to get at the more important criminal. I'm just not seeing how going easy on Brent helps the goal of going after PSA. But I'll reflect on it.

One footnote though -- it still takes card doctors and their enablers to bring these cards to market. So it's not like the biggest seller of doctored cards on the planet, and card uhh uhhh conservator himself, isn't still a huge problem.
Just catching up on the latest. I missed the statement by Orlando and Sloan. What was said, or better yet, is there a link or a thread where this information was made public?

swarmee 07-25-2019 02:20 PM
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1308245

http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...ighlight=Sloan

Jeffrompa 07-25-2019 02:32 PM
Never Get Cheated
 
Except by PSA and PWCC

Peter_Spaeth 07-25-2019 02:58 PM
https://www.actionnetwork.com/genera...tor-convention

Bicem 07-25-2019 03:06 PM
Solid article that even non-hobby people can understand.

BeanTown 07-25-2019 03:09 PM
Is there a place to see the other 50 cards they manipulated the prices along with the dates?

Taken from the article:
Take, for example, a card in the top 100 for PWCC, the 1955 Topps Roberto Clemente card. Clemente is a good example because he is no longer alive, meaning there’s nothing that can really change the perception of his card. Here are the prices reported as sold for a PSA 8 Clemente Rookie:

January 2015 — $29,127
October 2015 — $35,864
May 2016 — $131,450
July 2016 — $150,391
November 2016 — $38,500
November 2018 — $26,400
Why did the price crater in four months in 2016? Because the market-fixers moved on to another card.

This has been done with more than 50 vintage cards (though some of the rises and falls are not as dramatic as the Clemente card) but these cards were in the PWCC index because they were among the most valuable.

Peter_Spaeth 07-25-2019 03:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by BeanTown (Post 1902588)
Is there a place to see the other 50 cards they manipulated the prices along with the dates?

Taken from the article:
Take, for example, a card in the top 100 for PWCC, the 1955 Topps Roberto Clemente card. Clemente is a good example because he is no longer alive, meaning there’s nothing that can really change the perception of his card. Here are the prices reported as sold for a PSA 8 Clemente Rookie:

January 2015 — $29,127
October 2015 — $35,864
May 2016 — $131,450
July 2016 — $150,391
November 2016 — $38,500
November 2018 — $26,400
Why did the price crater in four months in 2016? Because the market-fixers moved on to another card.

This has been done with more than 50 vintage cards (though some of the rises and falls are not as dramatic as the Clemente card) but these cards were in the PWCC index because they were among the most valuable.
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=271577

Fuddjcal 07-25-2019 03:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1902493)
My understanding is that unlike in the securities area where the government has specific authority to seek relief barring people from the securities industry or barring individuals who commit securities fraud from serving as officers of publicly traded companies, the government does not have similar authority in other lines of business. It would have to be part of a plea bargain, and seems unlikely here.
It's going to boil down to Calvindog suing PSA anyway so I'll just wait for that by the end of the year. I guaran f en tee it.

A nice waste of money for all parties involved.

Mark17 07-25-2019 03:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuddjcal (Post 1902590)

A nice waste of money for all parties involved.
Naw, the lawyers will make out nicely.

CuriousGeorge 07-25-2019 03:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Fuddjcal (Post 1902590)
It's going to boil down to Calvindog suing PSA anyway so I'll just wait for that by the end of the year. I guaran f en tee it.

A nice waste of money for all parties involved.
Chuck, if it’s not your money why would you care?

Rickyy 07-25-2019 04:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CuriousGeorge (Post 1902336)

To me the bigger question lies with how are these cards getting slabbed by TPG’s? Are they just incompetent, paid off, or what? Why isn’t every card scanned when graded so when it comes back in altered it quickly shows up as previously graded? What responsibility do TPG’s have to honor their guarantees? If they are not and instead are giving people the runaround is someone going to legally challenge them? Is that all in the works? Are attorneys already engaged and preparing lawsuits?

All I know is it’s probably unrealistic to expect that 100% of altered cards are going to get caught by the TPG’s but aren’t we at a point where obviously altered cards are getting through with no issue. Can Brent help shed light on how that is happening? Does he have information that it’s anything other than incompetence? I have no idea but I’d sure like to find out.

And even if it is just incompetence isn’t it time TPG’s shouldn’t be able to hide behind self serving statements? Is someone going to hold them accountable? If there are better mechanisms in place to detect fraud does it ultimately matter if a few cards get through? Does Macy’s know a couple percentage of their sales is going to be lost to various theft? Does that mean that they still don’t do everything they can to stop it? Are TPG’s?

Feel free to shoot away.
[QUOTE=CuriousGeorge;1902336]


Aside from the PWCC fiasco, the integrity of the TPG's was already in question especially when the info came out about the famous Wagner being trimmed...but the grade was never changed.....and yet they continue to survive...

Ricky Y

CMIZ5290 07-25-2019 04:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CuriousGeorge (Post 1902597)
Chuck, if it’s not your money why would you care?
Steven,

I have bought many high end cards from your brother over the years, I know this must be a tough time for both of you guys. But in the midst of this thread, there really hasn't been any clarification on Jeff's part pertaining what I'm about to ask.... If he is indeed looking to rectify a problem for collectors, isn't he in fact violating client privilege, or is Huigens pleading the fifth?:rolleyes:

Exhibitman 07-25-2019 04:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by steve B (Post 1902550)
Yep, when customers are slime, taking their money is the best possible comeback. Except maybe sending them to the shop up the street so they can be the competitions problem.
Man's got a right to do his job; we need criminal defense attorneys to put the government to the test. I could not do it but that's why I keep my practice far away from criminal defense. Family law too; that's some nasty, nasty stuff.

CuriousGeorge 07-25-2019 04:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by CMIZ5290 (Post 1902613)
Steven,

I have bought many high end cards from your brother over the years, I know this must be a tough time for both of you guys. But in the midst of this thread, there really hasn't been any clarification on Jeff's part pertaining what I'm about to ask.... If he is indeed looking to rectify a problem for collectors, isn't he in fact violating client privilege, or is Huigens pleading the fifth?:rolleyes:
A tough time for us? Why? Actually things couldn’t be better for both of us so not sure what you mean by that?

As for Jeff and Brent and anything else hobby related, I’m not an attorney so not sure how attorney/client privilege plays into any of this or what Brent is planning on doing. For that you’re probably better off consulting with David James as he seems to think he has a better grasp of these topics. Unless of course he’s busy searching for El Chapo’s billions. What I do know though, is after replaying yesterday’s events my most poignant post yet could be the one about self fulfilling prophecy. Why anyone would go out of their way to assist many of you is probably a better question for you to ask?

WhenItWasAHobby 07-25-2019 05:00 PM
Thank you for posting those links.

Orlando's statements are utterly mind boggling while Sloan's are still significantly unacceptable. PSA has been aware of the rampant card doctoring for a decade or more and it's indisputably clear that they put forth no effort at all to improve their service quality. Now Orlando in affect dismisses the fraud victims as irrational malcontents.

Does any remember "Pro Grading"? If memory serves me correct, they were deemed as so incompetent for slabbing cards, and were regarded as a "black hole" for trimmed cards. Ebay at one point banned the sale of Pro-graded cards because so many were deemed as bad. In my opinion, PSA deserves the same fate and if Ebay does ban PSA graded cards, then we'll see how much arrogant diatribe Orlando spews out at the public when CU's stock plummets.

Mark17 07-25-2019 05:00 PM
It wasn't very long ago that Leon had a bunch of garbage unfairly thrown at him for not pulling down that PWCC banner quite fast enough..... He didn't ever condone what PWCC did (and was doing,) he didn't excuse it, he didn't stifle criticism of it, and he certainly didn't defend it.

So I'm wondering if the people who had the pitchforks out then are more forgiving when someone (for money) steps up to defend PWCC now.

Peter_Spaeth 07-25-2019 05:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Exhibitman (Post 1902615)
Man's got a right to do his job; we need criminal defense attorneys to put the government to the test. I could not do it but that's why I keep my practice far away from criminal defense. Family law too; that's some nasty, nasty stuff.
Family law, tell me about it. When I was just out of law school my firm was less corporate than it became and we did some of that and it was ugly as hell. In one case I argued and won some motion requiring the husband to pay for something and he starts cursing at me and insulting my abilities right in the courtroom with the judge still on the bench for the next matter, total circus.

bnorth 07-25-2019 05:08 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark17 (Post 1902622)
It wasn't very long ago that Leon had a bunch of garbage unfairly thrown at him for not pulling down that PWCC banner quite fast enough..... He didn't ever condone what PWCC did (and was doing,) he didn't excuse it, he didn't stifle criticism of it, and he certainly didn't defend it.

So I'm wondering if the people who had the pitchforks out then are more forgiving when someone (for money) steps up to defend PWCC now.
You obviously missed when he called several of us idiots and morons.:eek:


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