Hi Dan,
Welcome back to the board. A lot of us knew 10-15 years ago that altered cards were getting slabbed, and at an alarming rate. I know that when I told collectors about it, they thought it was just some harebrained idea, so most of us didn't publicize it. Now it's out in the open, which is a good thing. Maybe it will finally be properly addressed (not guaranteed).

You have a raw Paterson set? That’s awesome. Pics??

I would keep those beauties raw. I wish I had kept my set raw tbh

That is pretty much the position I am in. I have a Moser card that I purchased through PWCC over two years ago.

I've seen a dealer take a return on an altered coin that was sold something more than 10 years earlier.
The "negotiation" of the return was very brief.
Hi, do you recall selling me this half dollar?
Yes, that was a while ago.
I sent it in before selling it, and it came back as altered
Oh, can I take a look?
Sure, I think the mintmark was added.
Well, you're right. It has been. I don't know how I missed it. What did you pay
I think it was $X
That sounds about right, is a check ok?

I still visit his shop, and that was in I think 87.
Of course, he wasn't the one doing the altering.

I also got a good look at the altered coin, especially the added mintmark. It was a neat learning experience for me, not such a good day for him. I think the coin went on the next trip to the smelter along with the rest of the junk silver.

I can just imagine calling a big AH and saying I won a card from you 5 years ago that I would now like to return for a refund because I suspect it's altered. Or even better, a small ebay seller. The statement is obnoxious, in my view.

From what I've been given to understand, in both stamps and coins, the good dealers have an unstated lifetime warranty. I've never heard it said openly, but everyone I've talked about the business end with has told me that taking back mistakes, even if they're very old mistakes is just what's done.

When I was running the bicycle shop I do some work for, I essentially took the same view. I know my own work, and while we had a stated warranty of I think 90 days when I got a bike in that I'd worked on that wasn't really right, and that I could tell hadn't been ridden much in about 2 years, I fixed it free. New tires had been part of the original repair, and the little rubber bits from the mold venting hadn't even worn off.
Talk about a surprised and happy customer. :D

PSA is doing everything they can to:

1. Limit their liability for their own mistakes
2. Maintain their brand reputation as the preferred TPG
3. Not have the hobby go the way of stamps

They are digging in and denying accountability. Maybe they are preparing for a run in politics.

That is all.

Start with PWCC and let us know what happens, I guess.

It's up to you the collector to figure out if you have problem cards. We aren't going to help.

And if you do, don't bother us, call the seller.

If the seller is "unknown," we'll help you.

By the way, the incredible array of altered cards you're seeing on message boards -- don't worry, PSA is well-versed in detecting fraud.

Here is a copy of the message I sent to PWCC. I have pretty much zero optimism that there will be any understanding or accommodation from PWCC, but I guess we will see.

"Hello,

I purchased a 1900 Cope's Golfers Tom Morris card from PWCC for $757.76 plus $8 shipping.on May 23, 2017. With what has come to light in recent weeks, I now believe the card was consigned by Gary Moser and was previously in a PSA 2 holder before being altered/soaked. Had I known the card came from Moser and was likely tampered with, I never would have bid on the card.

I am reaching out to you to see what PWCC plans to do for customers who purchased Moser cards that were altered and now reside in higher-graded PSA holders?

Would you kindly advise me of the company's position for those customers who purchased Moser cards from you?

Sincerely,
Eddie Smith"

Well, the guys on the PSA message board are lining up to "kiss the ring" and show PSA how loyal they are so they won't get banned.

If they think that we should add "conserved" cards into the regular pool of PSA cards, I would recommend PSA blow up the Sacred Cow Set Registry and start from scratch. All cards need to go through review to be added back to a set registry if they change the grading standards! But again, they'd have to OPENLY DECLARE THAT THEY CANNOT DETECT ALTERATIONS.

No reason to allow conserved cards 30 years after Set Registry implementation when people have been paying thousands/hundreds of thousands over the cost of ALTERED cards to have the best graded sets. It will cause a water-down effect that will hurt the major investors in cards.

Oh, but it happened in comic books. It must be fine. Again, if PSA can tell the difference, and they're charging up to $5,000 per card because they CLAIM THEY CAN, why should anyone accept them punting on determining the quality of a card and slabbing alterations as unaltered?

:cool:I didnt see that posted anywhere

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...&postcount=612

From a thread that did not go poof.

Of course, PSA easily could reassure the collecting community about people they have banned, or explain why they haven't, but they won't. It's all a big secret. Trust us, we're well-versed in combating fraud, we'll deal with it privately, it's up to you to figure out what cards might be bad, and in that case contact the seller. I'll give JO credit, he knows well that a little scandal isn't going to rock the boat much as long as you keep a lid on it. The folks with money will toe the line and that's all that matters.

The only hope for change is law enforcement or possibly significant civil lawsuits.

this is an excellent post!

Did I miss where he specifically asked, or mentioned Moser?

The quote was

"3. Telling a dealer they can no longer submit would do no good, since they can always submit through others"

From the report, the response was to a question about Moser.

I think many of us feel pretty similarly on this, which is that finding this stuff and these people IS PART OF THE JOB.

It DOES make a difference when you tell someone they can't submit, and yes they would look to find someone else. Anyone else who's WILLING to do those submissions should then be added to the list of people you DO NOT want to work with and you can tell THEM they can't submit.

But, alas, if it's really just about MONEY, then let's keep it simple. Slab all you want, but when you get busted having slabbed altered cards from non-trustworthy parties, you have to just pay up.

That's what I believe most of us would expect real leaders to do.

PSA is only interested in damage control. Maybe as a public company that's justified I don't know. We the collectors are secondary, and doubtless they know we will keep feeding them revenue no matter how disingenuous their response to this scandal is.

Not have the hobby go the way of stamps....

So you don't want to have three authenticating/grading companies that are right nearly every time, plus at least one specialized one? And that's just in the US.

You'd rather have one big grading company, one somewhere in the middle and one small one all of them getting things wrong regularly? Especially the largest?
Might I recommend the PSA board. They have plenty of sand to put your head under.

Stamps are doing just fine, especially the older ones and China.

trimming
 

It would appear to me after my recent incounter with PSA that maybe PSA
really doesn't know what a trimmed card is and should not be in the business of grading cards

Hi Barry,

Nice to hear from you.

Your experience back then was the same as mine. My observation over several years with piles of evidence to prove it was that collectors who initially bought graded cards as a safeguard to prevent buying altered cards were later well aware of the prolific problem of doctored cards in slabs yet still continued to buy the graded cards anyway. It was mind boggling, but I've since learned that this psychological disorder is called cognitive dissonance.

No idea. Just faded into oblivion I suppose.

"SD" or "Stuff Disorder".

Cognitive dissonance, or the power of the slab.

Hey Mr. Sloan, I still don't see this notice posted on the front page of your website... I'm sure you can get it done.

List of things I'd like PSA to do:
1) Publish the entire list of Moser's submissions and decertify them from the pop report. In the case the proven "before" card was also PSA slabbed, remove that cert from the pop report as well.
2) Inform the public that this was done. SMR Magazine, Set Registry banquet at National, front page of your website. Have a returns line set up at the National for your aggrieved customers.
3) Get PWCC to pay for as much as they can afford.
4) Pay for the rest. It seems your company has not done a reliable job of this in the past; I have seen references to collectors having to "fight tooth and nail" to get reimbursed. This is the kind of thing that will only increase the bad press.
5) Open up your "internal investigation" to an independent auditor. As a publicly traded company, this makes sense, right?
6) Are you and Brent really working with any law enforcement? If so, why has the agency not been named?
7) Name the other "isolated bad actors" that still submit to PSA and decertify their cards. We're at the beginning of a Set Registry year; collectors will have 11 months to refill their sets with cards to replace their fraudulent ones.
8) Retrain your employees. The amount of various alterations detected so far has been vast: trimming, pressing out creases, recoloring, stain removal, claims of reglossing, rebuilding of corners, adding of rough cuts. Reject undersized cards as Minsize. Tighten up the minsiz requirements for sets like T206, 1952 Look N See, etc. Figure out how Moser beat you and think like him to figure out where PSA is sloppy. Maybe start a white-hat submission program to submit cards to your staff anonymously to see if they catch the alterations you claim you can.
9) Add a historical search for cards to your authentication step. Look for cards that have been photographed already on the internet. This will add personnel costs and timeline to your service, but it's required to regain trust. Otherwise, the scandal will continue to occur. Edit: I realize this will restrict you from doing any on-site grading. So be it. Accuracy is more important than speed; surely you agree.
10) Openly disavow (or approve) Brent's Marketplace Tenets. Disavowing them will show that you believe in the collector's agreement with PSA's longstanding definitions of card alteration. If you approve them, you'll have to explain why the company failed so miserably and confirm that if you can't detect alterations, you'll have to concede your corporate expertise lacks.

I agree there are things that PSA can do to improve its product.....but, I think that is missing the main point.

In the movie "Other People's Money" Danny DeVito in arguing that technology had made the product the target company was selling obsolete analogized to a company that made buggy whips when the automobile became commercially available. No matter what that company could possibly come up with to try to improve the quality of its buggy whips, it did not matter because people were now driving automobiles.

In the case of baseball card grading, where 5,6, and even 7 figure cards have replaced yesteryear's era of 2, 3 and 4 figure cards, the financial rewards of expert alteration have made PSA's method of grading cards obsolete. To say it another way, unless and until a TPG begins to use the best commercially viable methods technology has to offer to evaluate cards, altered cards will continue to slip through.

It is for that reason why I have stopped purchasing graded cards that have no provenance -- the leap of faith required to believe the card is accurately described by the flip is simply too great.

To those who will respond that my view that a person cares the card is not altered and will look to buy the card, not the flip, represent the exception, not the rule amongst collectors/investors, perhaps that is true. But as I've said before -- I believe that as people really begin to understand how commonplace alterations are and the absurdity of form ruling over substance when one is spending 5, 6, and 7 figures on an item, the s*#t will hit the fan and things will change.

Corey do you have any specifics on what technology TPGs should be using, and its cost?

Start up your own company, show proof of concept, go on Shark Tank. Then come back to me. All we have is buggy whips.

PSA already grades conserved cards with an A.

But, if they want to take a page from the comic book community, then PSA needs to have a different color label for "restored" grade.

These cards would sell for less than red flip numerical grades.

There's no reason for debating conservation. What Moser did to his cards was OK. Brent selling them was OK. The issue here is that they defrauded buyers by selling something vastly different than advertised to make money for themselves - and PSA's involvement, for now, remains a question.

The comparison to comic books is often brought up, so I’d like to clarify how the grading works and how the market looks at conservation/restoration:

CGC is the biggest comic book TPG. When a book is graded, it can receive a universal (no restoration/alteration), restored or conserved label. Additionally, the book is given a numerical grade in any of those three labels. So though it’s fair to say that there’s a line drawn between restoration and alteration, the key is that the market doesn’t look at the three labels the same way. Given the same numerical grade, a book in a conserved label will still trade at a steep discount to a book given a universal label and a book in a restored label at a steep discount to a book in a conserved label.

So in the comic book realm...are there instances where altered/restored richie riches end up in unaltered holders??

I’m sure it happens but I don’t know of anything as widespread as what we’ve got going on right now.

1000% agreed. Those guys are light years ahead of the PSA guys in regards to catching alterations.

1) Do comic books have a longstanding Set Registry?
2) What types of labels can go in set registries?
For example, does an original unaltered 6.0 rank better than a restored 9.8?
Or are they kept totally separate and some collect restored and most collectors ignore them like Qualifiers?

Again, for the comic book corollary to make sense, the TPGs would have to spend more time grading the cards accurately. Not maintain status quo. Putting a "restored" baseball card flip in a standard set registry at a similar point value will infuriate their most invested collectors.

Maybe PSA could do labels with card doctor pedigree.

But more seriously, if TPGs disclosed the identify of submitters, and AHs and large ebay sellers disclosed the identify of consignors, this hobby would clean up real fast. Of course it will happen on the twelfth of never, because we have to protect the criminals as much as possible to keep up the cash flow.

How many AHs will reassure us they don't and won't take consignments from known card doctors?

Peter, in response to this issue there have been posts by those with expertise in this area who opine the technology exists and would be cost effective. There have also been posts saying that for certain high valued cards, PSA charges up to $5K. At that level, I would think a submitter should get more than a cursory look by a person who might have little experience in knowing the different kinds of card sets and the physical characteristics those cards should be expected to exhibit.

From my experience with forensic analysis, I believe detecting trimming, the addition of color, and the pressing of corners is something that can be done. And given the enormous volume of cards PSA grades each year, I would think investing in such equipment would be profitable.

As to the point that for now all we have is buggy whips, that might be true. But then at least call it what it is and stop the pretense that the services PSA offer without making the investment into new technology can provide the assurances submitters believe they are getting and are paying for.

That’s a pretty incendiary statement to make given the information we have so far.

Just how widespread is what we have going on right now?


Last I checked there are around 375 or so cards that have been “outed” on BO, plus a list of additional suspects that currently could take the total over 1000 if all of them were to be similarly outed. Note that we have no information that any of the outed cards has been reviewed by the TPG and the finding of the review confirms the findings of the message board sleuths.

While I don’t doubt that there is some validity in what has been raised I think generalizations such as this are premature, not yet backed up by publicly available “hard” evidence and are therefore irresponsible as they can cause further unease/damage that may ultimately not be justified.

I know nothing about the comic book world but I am guessing there is no set registry???

Nearly everyone here is saying PSA needs to do a better job detecting the alterations, so what would be an acceptable failure rate (as in, what percent of altered cards get past them and given a grade). 1%? .5%?

Are any other hobbies using an AI to certify items? I know in high end art they've used CAT and xray to detect forgeries, but in those situations you are talking one off items that are already suspect and the value of the item justifies the expense. How much more would folks be willing to pay to have their VG T206 commons graded? The cards discovered so far show it is not just high $ cards being manipulated. Likewise, searching for past instances of cards being sold to compare takes a lot of time and of course time is money. So how much are folks who are complaining willing to pay to have a more comprehensive review done?

I also think we would be in a much worse situation if the TPG didn't exist. A good number of cards are purchased online today. I know I have and I'm sure most people have gotten raw cards that were not even close to the advertised grade (including altered cards). This includes cards coming from major auction houses. I don't know how many of these cards would have been caught if they weren't graded by a TPG. I guess the way I view it is that if these are getting past people who look at cards all day every day, what chance would the average collector have in spotting these if they got them raw?

So where does this leave us. In my view, the top 3 TPGs have done a great service to the hobby so far. Yes, the current situation sucks. However, when I really look at the alternative, the costs of doing a more thorough review of each card doesn't seem justified and I think you need to take the bad with the good. As a result, I hope this doesn't ultimately cripple PSA.

Barry Sloate has more experience than almost anyone here and has complete integrity. Read what he wrote about the extent and duration of this problem. Please Dave you are spinning in a contrafactual manner. I have been collecting since the outset of TPG and I absolutely agree with Barry this is a massive, pervasive problem. All the major industry participants know it too. I have had countless conversations confirming this over the years. Countless. With dealers, major auction houses, knowledgeable collectors, people who know the card doctors. There is nothing at all new about this, just a few items where some guys adept at searching were able to find before photos. It's a speck compared to what's out there.

The only one I have seen make any type of statement so far is LOTG. They included a link in an email the other day to their blog post which is copied below: https://lotgauctions.blog/2019/06/05...-Rup7srCQakmsk

Like many collectors, we are disturbed by the recent allegations of altered cards being sold in great quantities at auction, and we are grateful to those hobbyists who discovered the magnitude of the problem and brought it to light. It is our hope that those responsible are prosecuted.

The hobby places a premium on cards in exceptional condition because the cards have ostensibly survived that way since their date of issue. Cards that have developed flaws in condition over the years are typically discounted accordingly by the hobby. It has long been our belief that any process designed to disguise or remove wear or degradation that has happened to a card should be called what it is: an alteration. We understand that some alterations are considered acceptable by many hobbyists, and that some alterations are virtually undetectable. However, we still consider them alterations.

Love of the Game Auctions has long wished to conduct a reputable auction with reputable collectors and consignors. As such, we reserve the right to refuse to approve bidders for any reason. While our bidder and consignor lists are strictly confidential, we have, since our inception, refused bidder and consignor privileges to those proven to be actively engaged in card alteration, or in actively facilitating fraud in the hobby. It is important that we reiterate this commitment at this time.

Sadly, this latest round of allegations necessitates that we adjust our own policies to provide our customers with further assurance of our dedication to the hobby and its long-established standards. Therefore, effective immediately, Love of the Game Auctions will institute the following procedures:

Any graded card valued over $500 will be reviewed carefully by LOTG under magnification, along with halogen and long-wave ultraviolet lighting. Should we discover any issues with which we are uncomfortable, the card will be resubmitted to the grading company for review or returned to the consignor at their request.
Any individual card sold in our auction will be scanned at high resolution (300 dpi or greater) and watermarked versions of those scans will be made available for download during the auction so that collectors can review the largest scans possible. Should any hobbyist discover compelling evidence that a card in our auction has been altered, we will withdraw the card immediately.
Love of the Game Auctions frequently receives consignments of ungraded cards that we feel are “fresh” to the hobby, either due to having never been graded or having been graded many years ago. Cards of this nature that we submit for grading ourselves will be clearly marked in our auction, so that collectors are aware that they are bidding on a card that has been relatively uncirculated in the hobby.

While it is unfortunate that we have no choice but to add layers of scrutiny to the auction process due to the unethical behavior of others, we also feel it is the best thing to do for the hobby. While we can never eliminate 100% of undisclosed alterations, and would never pledge to be able to catch them all or be mistake-free, we can establish procedures that help us identify and remove such items from our auction. We hope the hobby can soon move past this regrettable phase.

I commend Al for that.

LOTG Auctions is to be commended for trying to take actions that are in the best interests of the hobby and its stakeholders.

For a somewhat trivial extra cost, you can add shortwave UV inspection as well. Even one of the better lights made for hobby use is under $100

http://www.usgeologicalsupply.com/ra...mp-pp-fls.html

It should be noted that polycarbonate(lexan), and some clear acrylics block UV so inspecting cards in slabs may not work.

Appreciate the kind words Peter but let me say a few things. First off, I have no idea how many altered cards are circulating in holders. We are all speculating, I think, about just how pervasive this problem may be.

However, I have been involved in the hobby for 35 years and I have heard so many stories, some of them entirely under the radar and never made public, that I have to assume that based on these examples the number has to be substantial. I don't attend shows and don't converse much with other dealers and collectors. And I have to also assume they know hundreds of examples too, since everybody in the hobby is well aware of the problems with graded cards.

So whether it is 1000, 5000, or 10,000 cards, I have no idea. But do I think the industry has a major problem to deal with? Absolutely. We're not talking about a few outlier examples, this is a major hobby black eye.

Of course, we also don't know how this will all play out, but we're going to find out.

Your own expert confirms what I said. This is all speculation based on what we’ve heard and nobody really knows for sure.

The only things we know for sure are:

1) unfortunately the number of doctored items in slabs is greater than zero
2) in all likelihood we will never be able to identify every tainted item
3) in all likelihood it will not be possible to prevent additional doctored items from making it into slabs because as the TPGs get better so do the scammers.

What we also know is that the creation and growth of TPGs has made the situation a lot better than it otherwise would have been, and that the TPGs seem to be committed to continuing to try and continually improve.

I’d like to see all of the innocent collectors affected in this latest “outbreak” spared from harm. I’d also like to see this latest outbreak contained so that it doesn’t spread and hurt other innocent collectors. The one thing I am confident of is that whipping up an angry mob to go after the one stakeholder that has the greatest potential to make things better for everyone, especially when there is no evidence that they were involved in nefarious actions or doing anything underhanded, seems like a bad idea to me.

The defense rests.

Barry is very careful and diplomatic, to his credit. I know what I know, David. I have 25 years of knowledge of what goes on in this industry. You can think what you want and spin as you please. Nothing personal, we just see it differently. And you acknowledge your bias pretty clearly, you want to see the harm minimized. I just want the truth. I am tired of this crap being spun and swept under the rug. We need real change. If PSA genuinely wants to lead the industry, this is a good opportunity to show some meaningful leadership.

Response:

1. I do not say PSA is doing anything underhanded from a criminal perspective. There have been allegations made, but until somebody offers proof, they are just allegations and PSA is entitled to the presumption of innocence.

2. Some of the alterations that have gotten through are so blatant that they are indicative of gross negligence/recklessness. The argument they represent only a small percentage of the cards PSA grade each year is irrelevant. Tell that to the person who plucked down a 4 figure sum to have a card graded, only to find his 5 or 6 figure purchase made in reliance on that evaluation missed the alteration. If a car was made with a manufacturing defect that only 1% of the cars on the road would manifest the problem, there would still be a recall.

3. Truth in advertising. Don't say your product is something you know it is not. A cursory visual inspection WILL NOT detect an expertly done alteration, which alterations you and everybody else should know are being done as we speak by card doctors incentivized by the staggering profits they are making.

4. Simple common sense. How the hell can a tobacco card over a century old have survived in mint or gem mint condition? Yes, I get it that there are the once in a decade finds of vintage uncirculated cards. But that is not what I am talking about.

Right, to be clear, I agree with Corey's first point and I continue to think PSA is not intentionally grading altered cards, taking money for favors, etc. I do, though, question the adequacy of their response to the latest revelations.

Interestingly, years ago, PCGS apparently had enough of certain people trying to get bad coins past them that they sued several coin dealers. to my knowledge PSA has not done the same.

Corey's analogy to an auto recall is quite relevant here. PSA should offer a recall to anybody who wants one or all of their cards reviewed, at no charge. And if they find an altered card during the review, they should work out an amicable settlement with the owner. If the number of altered cards is indeed small, then it won't cost them much, and the amount of good will and product trust they will garner will be enormous.

Of course there are problems with this business model- they could choose to avoid seeing an alteration in an expensive card- but the idea of a recall is a pretty damn good plan.

They need to be even more proactive in my view, tell us which cards were submitted by known or strongly suspected card doctors because how the hell do we know. Of course it will never happen because of the pressure it would put on the reserve. So we're left to fend for ourselves. And even worse, they then push it off onto the sellers many or most of whom are innocents.

Agreed Peter. This whole issue is very convoluted and I really have no idea how it will all pan out.

There's at least an opportunity for it to end up in a better place, but I don't know. This industry has been operating in a set way for a long time and lots of that needs to change, through some combination of punishment, deterrence, and voluntary proactive steps. Unfortunately as in so many human endeavors, all the money in it has just corrupted it.

I'm really not so sure PSA doesn't have an internal problem where they or someone there is involved.

Just how many times can you fall back on "oops I missed that one" Or the eventual "I really have no idea what I'm doing" before it really looks deliberate?

Dave with all due respect, If you don't think there are 10's of thousands cards from this one clown alone your really not using your noodle. This IS and Has been rampant and widespread for 15 years or better. That's a lot of cards my handsome friend. A BOAT LOAD. This one Brent Mastro has been doing this as part of his business plan. You must not have been paying attention. :)

Agreed. It's been going on for quite a long time by a significant number of dealers. It's a very lucrative business turning $5 raw cards in to $200 graded cards for the Set Registry. Here's one example that should have rocked the collecting world when it was revealed but it just seemed to just fade into obscurity perhaps by being overshadowed by the issue of rampant shill bidding.


http://www.net54baseball.com/showpos...19&postcount=1

PSA has been in business for 25 plus years. If that were the case, someone who left would have spilled by now, in my opinion. As I recently told someone writing a story, in my opinion, it's a combination of the extreme sophistication and talent of card doctors, the lesser sophistication of some (probably junior) graders, and in some cases insufficient time spent. Just my opinion. If I'm proven wrong, so be it.

what a legitimate company who puts their customers first with integrity would certainly do something proactive like that or what Swarmee suggests. That's what WE would do with our business's. PSA and PWCC are rotten at the core and I don't even think there is an argument there.

They will give verbal blow jobs to everyone and anyone for as long as they can, because that's the kind of companies THEY run. They are both on MY DEAD list and they should be on your's too of companies you will never do business with again under any circumstances. But people are real stupid and that's the one thing you can always count on as well as what PSA & Brent Mastro count on.

I don't know that PSA was not grading altered cards intentionally. No one else on here knows either. That statement has no fact. As far as I'm concerned this is a very major hit in the card market. The fact that these cards were graded is a disgrace to PSA. Why would anyone ever purchase a PSA card for big money again. They have totally destroyed their product.

Look at ebay and see what PWCC cards are selling for in their current auction. I don't think the broader market perceives it as you do or even knows. We are up against a huge mountain here, those that want to see change.

YES, a speck. And yes, you listen to people who know more than you do and that you respect, like Barry and Peter. It's a road map for success in anything you do...like determining how long this fraud has been allowed to go on, for instance.

could not agree more but just look around you'll see just how moronic people really are. There are idiots everywhere that can't make it through High school. it will be business as usual until it's not.

The one thing TPG's did that I believe hurt the hobby was to make cards exponentially more valuable based on criteria so minuscule that to the average collector was imperceptible. 7.5 looks like an 8, 8 is identical to an 8.5, 9's and 10's are interchangeable, yet the difference in price among these cards is enormous. That put way too much power in the hands of the grader, and took it away from the collector. And as you said, the hobby to a great extent has put too much emphasis on monetary value.

I personally think the distinctions are silly but the market can decide that for itself, nobody forced anyone to pay those premiums. Whereas most people can't detect alteration particularly within slabs, so there people really do depend on the competence of the TPGs. After all, the core mission of PSA when it started was to AUTHENTICATE.

Since CGC came up i'll spam this video again for reference
 

<iframe width="560" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/0H5j0mQYpy8" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>

My point of spamming this video is to to drive home the point that all TPG's should have a stance and be transparent on this topic. It is very clear that the CGC folks are comfortable talking restoration and have built a business model to address the various scenarios. It's the type of excellence we should expect from TPG's.
I understand that taking a stance and speaking about it puts your company under more scrutiny for "getting it right". Integrity and responsibility is what we consumers pay for.

What I think isnt the point. The point is that the only thing that really matters is what can be proved, since that is the primary basis upon which people can be compelled to take action to try and improve the situation. It is also the only basis upon which bad actors can have serious adverse consequences put upon them that will, hopefully, serve as an example that discourages similar behavior by anyone else in the future.

As for Brent, it was more than 3 years ago that I got the last piece of the puzzle I needed to determine that PWCC was not being run on the up and up. Both direct from him and indirectly from others who foolishly chose to “brag” about what their roles were with respect to PWCC and people foolish enough to put it all down in writing.

I do not doubt that there are tainted slabbed cards out there for a moment, but I don’t think trying to incite a riot is going to improve the situation any faster nor improve the outcomes of trying address it.

This is going to take some time and resources and given no evidence of misconduct or malfeasance on the part of PSA so far we would not be doing ourselves any favors by becoming adversarial or militant right now based on the little we know to be actual fact. They have more than just the collector constituency to answer to and need to work through understanding what additional info they need, what possible actions can be taken and how to deal with conflicting obligations they may have to various stakeholder groups that they are accountable to. They should be given a chance to do this without the distraction of an angry mob taking away from their efforts.

This is where you are wrong. It’s more than just what can be proved because the BODA are focused on just those cards easily found with front/back scans from a few websites. They admit that for wvery card they document with scans they pass on a few that have alterations but can’t get a good scan. These passed cards are also on the same Moser submissions. And there are undoubtedly some on the Moser submissions that were purchased from shows and have no early scans available. Your “proof” of 400 cards will probably end up at 5,000 cards and can eventually be linked to 50,000 others. Remember, they just started documenting by looking at 1 seller and haven’t even looked at Auction Houses for the original purchase.

Dave, with respect, in my opinion your measured, cautious, prudent, careful, thoughtful, etc. approach has never worked in the past. Even when the problem was on a small scale like WIWAG. Many of us have no reason to believe anything is going to change here without a very forceful show of outrage by the ultimate constituency, we the collectors (and honest dealers). Nobody wants to or is trying to incite a riot. People are demanding accountability and change, and the foxes guarding the henhouse are not likely to deliver it. Their incentive appears to be to guard against pressure on the accounting reserve, not to do what is in collectors' best interests. There is very good reason the mob is angry in this case, all our collections likely are infested with altered cards, and all we've heard is if you can figure it out for yourselves call your seller. No riot -- change.

PS it doesn't take a genius to extrapolate from what's been found on BO in a short period of time with a very limited focus to 25 years of grading.

and I should add that you can’t take the altered population and divide by 30 million Cards graded. That includes resubmits, cards valued under $100, YuGiOh, badly damaged, ungradeable, etc. The true population for comparison is probably closer to 2-5 million.

Eric it doesn't even matter, it's still an astonishingly high number in all likelihood.

It is. But both ends adjusted to the proper levels gets a more accurate guage of the error rates. I see 0.1 and 0.2 percentages when it may really be 2% or more. That makes it significant rather than minuscule.

That's a great point. And pretty much the same one I make to conspiracy theory guys. :o

I'd love to have a look at one of the proven trimmed cards to see just how good the trim is.

It's probably not hard to buy one.:eek:

If there was one I could afford.....

I'd be all over one as an altered card if I could get it for like $20. Most are worth more even if they were slabbed as altered.

I was interested in picking up one of the fake Jeter auto cards they were showing on the Postwar side, but at $100+ each I just don't have the budget.

You don't think YuGiOh cards are being altered? I bet some magic cards are. Turning a beta into an alpha would be really easy.

PSA's claim that they catch a certain percentage will also include the number of cards that are not actually altered or minsize that they declare. These are usually less important because if they aren't actually altered, they get slabbed the next time submitted.
Alpha errors versus beta errors. False positives vs. False negatives.

Pokemon are definitely being counterfeited. Magic Alpha/Beta/antiquities/Arabian nights/legends are more likely retouched like 1971 Topps black borders rather than being die cut down from Beta corners to Alpha corners.
That would be a huge rabbit hole that hasn't been explored yet.