It is unfair to demand a man relinquish 7% of his
business’ income just because the advertiser is
under some public scrutiny. That is unless you plan
on taking out that ad space in replacement.

Posting on this for the first time, and appreciate all the undercover work over on BO, plus having the folks here link to (and consequently introduce me to) BO. Like all who love this hobby, I'm sickened. What I cannot understand is how people cannot see cards that do not fit into the holder, especially modern cards.

Having said that, and in advance I want to commend corndog on BO on the time and effort he and others are putting into this. I have, however, to question this Gehrig card:
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=2109

While there are many, many similarities between the two items pictured, I wonder how the white print dots appear on the "conserved" card, at the right top of his forehead, plus on the brim of the cap. Further, there appears to be a nick in the top of the card just left of center. These types of things would not be the types of things that a card doctor would add.

Not trying to defend anyone involved in this scam, but treat this as I need help understanding.

The other part that really has me fearful of the breadth and depth of this fraud is the Parkhurst wresting card. I mean, if those cards are being doctored, there is no limit to the amount of potential fraud.

Bob

Advertisement as a whole not just one client...we have many SCL, PSA, Lelands, PWCC, Just Rip It, R & R, etc...all those combined make up 7%

Let's start with honoring their guaranty, more to follow on that note

Sent from my SM-N950U using Tapatalk

It could be from the scanner and not on the card. The appear to be the same card given the identified and other characteristics of the card. The edge imperfections even match.

What I need clarity on is the wrestling card on this link:
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=2109 How is it that after the trimming along the right side of the card is completed the card fits more tightly in the holder? Aren't PSA holders one size for standard card issues, ie. every Topps 1966 card is placed in the same type of holder with similar interior dimensions? If that's not the case and PSA uses different sized holders for the same issue then wouldn't PSA immediately know the card is smaller than others of the same issue? Something stinks.

One man’s public scrutiny is another man’s complicit fraud.

PSA has a variety of sizes of the slabs, and they have a number visible in the bottom right left corner (numbers in reverse). This one I just got back says ".1T" My guess is that they "right size" to the best fitting holder per card. I even had an oversize 1952 Topps baseball card returned to me in a tallboy holder because it wouldn't fit in a normal slab.
https://scontent-dfw5-2.xx.fbcdn.net...80&oe=5D541477

You've also heard people complain before about their cards getting mylar bag treatment for some, and not for others in the same submission. Also due to differences in size within the same set.

I certainly have doubts about individual cards, but there are 100's that leave no doubt, so not losing too much sleep over a few that are doubtful.

The Blowout guys are saying that your site's PWCC card back scans have also been deleted, however back scans from other sellers are still visible. Is this true? Is this another poorly timed glitch or were you asked by eBay or PWCC to remove those images?
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showth...290614&page=87

Now you see why everything looks like a conspiracy?

If this is true, you think a minimum 7% of members could file a dispute on their credit card?

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Come on Ted what is the problem, you have been beating around the bush about this subject for quite some time. Is the problem with a altered card that the alteration was not disclosed or was you silly enough to buy a autograph they authenticated.

Lol, the latter. It was their response which bothered me most. Waiting for a final decision before crucifixion

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What’s next
 

While my natural inclination is one of moderation, I have to admit it is pretty evident that we have a full-blown scandal. My question is how do we police ourselves going forward? Given that PSA and PWCC have roles in this scandal that fall somewhere between gross incompetence and indictment, it’s pretty clear they shouldn’t be writing the rules. Maybe it’s time that we form the trade association that polices itself and forms the rules of the road?

I think this scandal has shown that in the years since Mastro not much has changed. Even assuming that individuals in this scandal are brought to justice, if the controls in place do not change then we are just beginning the countdown to the next scandal.

Rob Kasenter

It's fine to talk about a trade association but who's going to do the actual work to put one together, draw up the charter, recruit collectors, convince dealers to join, get funding, etc.?

The other problem is we (not singling anyone out) as a group continue to do business with the bad actors, because we can't resist stuff, or money, or whatever. So there is effectively no private enforcement mechanism against bad behavior.

Look for the Joe DiMaggio thread on Blowout. That implicates PWCC. Timelines and everything... There are several threads where BODA folks have been able to figure out who submitted cards, the timelines and when they were sold, some cases several times....As someone else has mentioned reading the threads will answer your questions...

Yep. Forgive my venting but the tactic of refusing to read all the relevant threads and then expressing skepticism and demanding proof is getting really lame.

Having said that, and in advance I want to commend corndog on BO on the time and effort he and others are putting into this. I have, however, to question this Gehrig card:
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=2109

While there are many, many similarities between the two items pictured, I wonder how the white print dots appear on the "conserved" card, at the right top of his forehead, plus on the brim of the cap. Further, there appears to be a nick in the top of the card just left of center. These types of things would not be the types of things that a card doctor would add.

Not trying to defend anyone involved in this scam, but treat this as I need help understanding. [/QUOTE]

Actually there have been a couple of Blowout threads where the "surgeons" have added or enhanced a defect to throw people off the scent. These "surgeons" know what they are doing and are scary good at it...

It looks like the same card to me.....

Between the centering and the corners it's clearly the same card IMO. Uh, I mean asset.

You down with SGC?
 

The SGC website home page still promises good things to come, but starts with a video about autograph authentication, which - as they say on the homepage as well - they stopped doing on April 1 after their autograph authentication business was obliterated by a forgery ring in Girard, OH. (PSA would be similarly wise to give up card grading until they come up with a better mouse trap.)

I used to love SGC, and had my entire first T206 set encapsulated by SGC. But all the folks that made SGC so great are now at REA. I have given up on them.

Perhaps we can help make SGC GREAT AGAIN!!!!! MSGA!!!!!!!

I agree...

I remember when you were their biggest fan, we used to have some discussions about that. Very interesting. Have their graders left as well or just administrative people?

PSA card sales at National???
 

Gee I wonder how many folks will be buying PSA slabbed assets at the national now that this whole fraud thing is blowing up? Feel bad for the dealers that are spending thousands to set up and may not sell much....

The hobby is filled with too many high IQ hard workers that it’s a wonder any fraud ever goes undetected.

Dimaggio link?
 

Anybody have a link to the PWCC Dimaggio stuff on blowout?

Rob it was right here, maybe two years ago?

Here you are.
http://www.net54baseball.com/showthr...light=dimaggio

Yeah sure I am removing scans of cards...are you crazy...first of all looking at every single one of those cards they have used in their proof. All images before alteration have come from Worthpoint or PWCC and after alteration from PWCC. Not one single link or image has been pointed towards VCP.

So tell me why would i be deleting images.

Sheesh.
https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=2162

Not to worry, the band will play on.

I am not. They are claiming that the PWCC sales prior to 2015 have lost back scans.

There's the key. Our inability to say no. This is what they rely and trade on. Not really much different than a junkie in a lot of ways. Yeah, ok, make a chump outta me but I got the card I "needed."
It's going to take more than keyboard indignation to effect any change.

and that's being nice. I would love to bash Brent Mastro the crooks face in with a baseball bat. ZERO moral compass and ZERO integrity.

Might be easier to say "no" when you have doubts about the "stuff"

Well you would think wouldn't you - the past would tell me not to look for much to change.

What I'm finding infuriating is not just the perpetrators but the people who continue to either defend them, downplay the situation, or look the other way.

There. I feel better. Well, not really.

Unfortunately not true. Many people have said they do not care what has happened to the card as long as it is in the slab.:eek:

The PSA slab is magic don't you know. It increases the value and magically makes the card whatever the flip says it is.

He's the guy that is spinning cards in and out of the holders by having his buddies bidding HIGH HIGH HIGH on his cards or not and then trimming the S*** out of them soaking them spooning, stretching and dipping in chemicals. Then he turns them all in to PSA for them to grade and PSA is most likely giving him preferential treatment or taking money or completely incompetent, which is possible. AND THEY ARE making millions conserving cards. FOR a LONG LONG TIME. That's why Bobby.

Did Brent Mastro buy your site and shut it down or did Brent Mastro complain to E-BAY that Moser's E-bay Identity was compromised and then shut you down?

THAT's WHY. He's the RING leader, your advertiser. IMHO.
When you lie in bed with snakes, sometimes things like this happen.

I appreciate your site and used it to research my 52 Mantle purchase. Thank you. It was not PSA. I hope you are not out of business now? That does suck. Sorry.

I don't think you would shut your business down like that, unless Brent Mastro bought you out.

Your site showed the backs BACK FROM 2015.

Bobby, Just kind of thinking out loud since you own a platform that may be able to help collectors but does your software capture the cert number? If so, can you flag those certs that have been identified as being trimmed/enhanced/whatever else you want to call them? By doing so, that will flag those cards as being suspect and future buyers would know they might not be appropriately graded (at least until they are cracked out and resubmitted).

DJ

It's not that uncommon to find people's behavior/attitude fall in line with their self-interest is it counselor?

No we do not have anything that captures the cert. And we do not use any type of facial recognition software in our system to implement something that could.

Indeed not. The capacity to rationalize is pretty universal.

I find it difficult to understand after the write-up that states “This comes from a raw collection which we’ve had the pleasure of brokering pieces over the years” people are exonerating PWCC. This card was purchased by Moser. If that is the raw collection from which it came, PWCC had reason to believe it was altered and decided to have it graded anyway. Up until this one - I was open to the idea PWCC was consigned bad graded cards and unwittingly selling them.

The ire towards PWCC over PSA is this knowledge. PSA missed alterations and slabbed bad cards. However I do not think they were knowingly working with a card doctor to do so.

I hope someone with an altered card come forward and seeks restitution. PSA has their guarantee - I hope to see evidence they honor it on one or more of these cards unless PWCC does the right thing and refunds their customer. Either way if someone comes forward and is not made whole - then the attention will shift to PSA.

LOL! You mean the same way you do with PSA? We've already determined that PSA is either complicit or incompetent. It's one of the two. Either way, why would you choose to continue to do business with them?

Why don't you lead the charge? Let's start an online petition - a new thread - and everyone that's willing to stand up and stop doing business with PWCC and PSA sign their name to the thread. Lead by example, Peter. Or is it too easy to point the finger at PWCC while turning a blind eye to PSA?

Again we did not remove any back images...for us to do something like that would be virtually impossible. If you look at images on our site there are cases where there are any where from 1 to 6,7,8 images of any given sale. And then they are in no particular order the first image is not always the front of the card, it could be the back of the card. There is no set consistency the way the images are loaded on the site, it is a direct pull for the auction houses and however they set their order.

I would like to see some examples of these missing images but no one has submitted a "Report a Problem" on VCP for me to look into the matter. Think I saw somewhere the seller Probstein was brought up and if that is the case he did not provide back images for years so there would not even be a back image to delete. Not all sellers provide back images. We can only pull what is there and not something out of thin air if it does not exist.

In the case of the '34 Gehrig, it is just glare from the plastic holder. Obviously the same card (before and after), as are all of the examples presented in which PSA has failed. Not a good time to diminish the meticulous work that's being done for the good of the hobby, or bury our heads in the sand.

The answer is simple enough:

--Stop dealing with PWCC;
--Stop dealing with PSA;
--Cancel your VCP subscription.

And let the latter two know why.

Adam you are asking a lot here.

This. This. This.

But let's see who actually will. Like I said, we need to start a new thread with those willing to do this and sign their names to it - a pledge - and hold people accountable to their pledge. I'll sign it. Anybody else?

That's precisely why PSA is the greater evil here...

Once those cards are slabbed, they can re-appear anywhere. Even if PWCC is eventually disbanded, the PSA cards are still out there in mass quantities. The "blind faith" in PSA is what drives the corruption, and has forever called their product into question.

It's not like Chipotle, who suffered a temporary setback with the tainted food scandal. Bad food can be destroyed and is then gone forever. So eventually all is forgotten. NOT the case here, however... we will never truly know how deep the PSA infection runs, or how many tainted cards continue to reside in collections, will be traded, have already been traded, and eventually will be passed down.

It's not pleasant, and is not what people want to hear (given their personal stake in PSA Graded Cards). But unfortunately what we've seen this past month is the perverbial the tip of the iceberg.

This is getting ridiculous.

It's amazing. The same evil sorcery that caused the bizarre purge of back scans from PWCC website after their "server crossover" has now struck poor VCP! What cruel priestess spins such a wicked spell on our beloved hobby stalwarts??? Why must such unexplainable disease burden the back scan??? Hath god spited the card number? Perhaps he tired of thou outdated statistics???

Who will be the next victim in this completely random PWCC pre-2015 back scan-only virus??? Quick! Everyone to their hard drives! There's no telling if you've been afflicted!

Seems to work fine..

https://forums.collectors.com/discus...s-vault-option

This along with another forum on PSA is currently ongoing and PSA is letting it run its course as long as everyone stays civil. Todd Tobias who works at PSA did say that Sloan is gathering all information on PWCC and once he has details will be making some sort of announcement, but in short PSA is not ignoring this.

And here is another link to Collectors Universe Forum: https://forums.collectors.com/discus...ned-by-pwcc/p4

You realize they don't host these images? They are on other sites. They have no control over whether or not they appear. At least that's how I understand it.

My early prediction is that PSA finally breaks its silence by providing a "sacrificial lamb". A single (low-level) individual who gets fired for being linked to PWCC.

And then it's business as usual, and they all live happily ever after.

I have been avoiding PWCC for many years and just use PSA for cards I want to sell for way more than I could get any other way.

That is silly to put Bobby/VCP in that group for now. Has it been proven he actually done anything.

Adding Bobby would be like you not visiting this site because PWCC is the largest advertiser here.

When Senior Grader Rob Luce left in 2016 to follow Brian Dwyer to REA, I knew it wasn't a good move for SGC. Luce used to travel to the shows, and you could sit down with him and ask how he graded cards, and what he thought of your cards before you submitted them. It was that first-class customer service -- and much more consistent and accurate grading -- that made me their biggest fan.

That they somehow are surviving despite their best efforts to kill themselves is more a testament to the outrageous waiting times for PSA grading than support for their current business model.

I support this sentiment. I certainly won't be bidding on any more PWCC listings and I won't be buying any more PSA or BGS (let's not forget BGS has a huge part in this too) graded items. I guess I'll have to wait for a real TPG competitor to arrive and have my PC stuff regraded someday. Hopefully none are altered, but that's now unlikely. I don't have a VCP sub, but I wouldn't do any business with anyone with ties to this situation (I don't have business interactions with Leon, so don't even try it), especially after seeing the proprietor's deflection attempts. Playing dumb doesn't work. You know darn well what's happening within your own business, down to every little detail.

This is just about the part I made bold. This may seem strange to some but I have no problem with Leon taking Brents $ for advertising. Seriously do you stop watching a channel on TV because they aired a commercial you don't like. I may not like the advertisement but I sure as hell like the channel/forum or I wouldn't be here.

He is letting all this go down on HIS forum, gotta respect him for that.

Someone might want to quote this for posterity.:D

So do people thing SGC is in the clear here, or is this story still unfolding and it could move to them as well?

I have mostly always bought SGC vintage and got my Ruth’s at SGc even though they traded at a discount to PSA because I always feel like PSA is a bomb ready to explode.

Do people think that the PSA premium may now go away and SGc may trade at a premium? Just curious.

I have long felt that SGC was better at detecting trimming and alterations, but like I suggested above, I haven't had much experience submitting hordes of raw T206s to them in 4 or 5 years.

Having said that, I may be going "paleo" with my collecting, avoiding grading altogether until someone designs a grading system that addresses the myriad problems we're seeing today.

So some of the old listings that vcp basically links to supposedly had back scans deleted, and now the mob wants to throw vcp into the fire with pwcc, but not PSA. I don't see any evidence Bobby or VCP did anything wrong. Calls to cancel vcp subscriptions seem ridiculous to me.

NM

Paleo diet for me as well....

While it is an opportune window for SGC, I would REALLY love to see RAW trade at a premium. May never happen... but who better than us, to determine what looks best. Without "preferred" clients, severe time constraints and hoards of cards to sift through, most of us can blow the doors off those guys anyway!

This past weekend I noticed a nice Ty Cobb pin PWCC was selling. Based on the craziness surrounding PWCC lately, it made me look a lot closer at the pin. I noticed that the back rim was an untarnished brighter silver in appearance. Thoughts on the pin? Am I being paranoid??

I decided NOT to bid on the auction.

Are you being serious?

Again for the 3rd time....
We did not remove or delete any images.

PWCC has 51 Bowmans of Mantle & Mays as well as 53 Mantle all PSA 7's closing tonight (amongst a bunch of other stuff). Will be interesting to see if final prices are affected at all.

My guess is no.

Yes. It seems to me the issue is with PSA. If they're letting trimmed cards through, let's focus our efforts on determining why or how this is happening. That would be my suggestion. But from what I've read most aren't holding them accountable. Let's boycott pwcc, stop accepting their advertising money, but keep using PSA. Absurd.

And Bobby yes I realize that. My post was calling into question those calling for net54 members to cancel their subscriptions to your service. You explained how your site works. I am not tech savvy enough to understand it completely but as I do understand it if any scans were deleted it would have been because Ebay or someone else had them removed. And I don't even see evidence that happened.

The issue is a TPG system that is overvalued by customers, because it delivers results that do not even come close to matching the expectations of those customers. Your PSA 4, SGC 50/4, BVG 4, etc. may have had its grade improved through means that you are not comfortable accepting. The odds of that being true may have always been the same — but that lingering doubt has become a large black cloud thanks to the visual “before-and-afters” that first ran like a wildfire through my signed T206 collection.

How many times have we read over the past few weeks a collector attempting to calm himself by exclaiming “That’s why I never collect anything above a PSA 5!” The truth is, if you have a graded card in your collection—a card graded at any level—the technology used by the TPG to certify that card as “unaltered” to you was woefully inadequate for making that certification, and the criminals do not have a grading threshold below which they are unwilling to go.

Go paleo. Collect what you like regardless of the TPG’s opinion. Try to hold onto any provenance you can grasp.

A bit delayed (these threads are moving way too fast for me to keep up!) but your sister is awesome for doing that!

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=2204

Amazing.

This one should make anyone who collects T206 cards sick. This is a gut punch.

Good golly Miss Molly.

Holy moly...doyle may be next.

I noticed that Moser won a Johnny Lipon 53 Bowman Color from me back in 11/2018. So, I wanted to see if I can find out whether he resold it at a later date. I didn't find it but I stumbled onto this.
On 12/15/18, he won a PSA 6 version of that card at Probstein's. Click on "View Original Item".

https://www.ebay.com/itm/-/362502649...2047675.l10137

Then I saw on May 9th 2019, an 8.5 version of this card sold at PWCC. Click on "View Original Item".


https://www.ebay.com/itm/-/352652489...2047675.l10137

What makes me believe that they are the same card, is the stain on the back. It's on the bottom of the card just below Printed in U.S.A and running up into the stats.

If I am correct, then it's not only high end cards that we need to worry about.

There are A LOT of mid-grade cards being outed on BO as altered. You can’t hide behind a decision to collect only PSA 3s and 4s and think you’re safe.