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Clemente had higher WAR per game played. I think Clemente measures up quite favorably to Frank Robinson when his whole game is considered. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
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I like Clemente a lot but he was not Mays or Aaron and very few people in their time thought he was in that conversation. He was a great person and worthy of his fame, but like some other people in other walks of like the fact that he was taken before his time makes him feel more legendary than he perhaps was. |
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So I think that is the reason he would be mentioned with those two. |
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Going back to the discussion of top ten players of all-time, right now, I’d probably go with these, off the top of my head:
1. Babe Ruth 2. Honus Wagner 3. Ted Williams 4. Willie Mays 5. Ty Cobb 6. Walter Johnson 7. Barry Bonds 8. Lefty Grove 9. Mickey Mantle 10. Lou Gehrig Lots of other guys are very close. Hard to leave Musial, Young, Aaron, Schmidt, Clemens and a small handful of others off that top ten. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk |
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On Base Percentage
Frank Robinson – .389 images Roberto Clemente – .359 Slugging Percentage Frank Robinson – .537 images Roberto Clemente – .475 OPS (On-Base + Slugging Percentage) Frank Robinson – .926 images Roberto Clemente – .834 Home Runs Frank Robinson – 586 images Roberto Clemente – 240 RBIs Frank Robinson – 1,812 images Roberto Clemente – 1,305 |
Frank Robinson is vastly underappreciated. That said, his WAR per game and WAR per inning is lower than Clemente.
Personally I would take Robinson because I just value offense over defense that much. |
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sorry to get off-topic, just making an observation :) |
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TRIVIA QUIZ
What has Frank Robinson achieved that no other major star has in the post-WWII era ? TED Z T206 Reference . |
I always believed Frank Robinson doesn't get enough credit, but that may be because of some early memories being burned into me for life.
I recall 1966 as a very young boy, and what he did to the American League that year seemed unearthly. I was starting to get into my hometown Twins, and my favorite player on that team, Tony Oliva, who had just won the AL batting crown his first two seasons. Frank Robinson beat him by 9 points, and I don't remember it being that close, although they were the only two (I think) to hit .300. The local slugger Killebrew finished second to Robby in HR-- ten behind. As it turned out, Robby not only won the triple crown, he led the league in runs scored by 23 and in slugging pct by 99 points! He then won World Series MVP by beating Drysdale twice and going 1 for 2 (triple) off of Koufax in the four-game sweep. Just truly seemed like he was in a league of his own. He also was a very underrated baserunner and a smart player overall. I wonder if he lacked a bit of popularity because he split his career about evenly in each league at a time when each had its own devoted fans that didn't fully appreciate what he had done in the other circuit because they didn't follow it as closely. Anyway, he has always been one of my favorite players, although begrudgingly so when he beat my guys back in the day. |
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Mark Your answer is a good one, but it's not quite the one I'm looking for. |
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Frank Robinson
I believe F. Robby is under appreciated, undervalued and doesn’t get the credit he likely deserves is because of his personality sometimes hits people the wrong way. Now I’m an O’s fan and Frank is one of my favorite players and each time I met him he was extremely nice to me, but I heard some horror stories from others.
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He wouldn't even look at people when he was the Nationals manager. I remember being at spring training in 2005 during their inaugural season. The only reason anyone had to be there was him. He blew everyone off like it didn't matter if a new franchise had fans.
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Mark70Z Your response in post #254 here serves as a hint to the answer to this Quiz. . |
Who is a person who has never been in my kitchen?
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Something to do with what he did in both leagues then. Well, he was a 6 time all star selection in each. Had over 1000 hits in each (probably not unique there, Griffey). Did he hit 250 HR in the AL, I am sure he did it in the NL? And I doubt Griffey got to 250 in the NL.
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Whether he belongs or not, I find it troublesome that one could be making his way in or out of a status some 46 years after their death. I get the need for time to pass to truly reflect on a total playing career and how it compares historically (although some wouldnt even agree with that suggestion); but beyond some point in time it seems like lore and revisionist history start to take over.
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After my list I had that point about guys I seriously considered for the top ten list. Cy Young is really hard to keep off, but I'd like to have seen him pitch in the live ball era. Eddie Collins is just outside my top ten. Two of the modern era guys I struggled to keep off were Mike Schmidt and Johnny Bench. Bench doesn't have the WAR of the others, but he's one of those guys where I don't feel the numbers tell the whole story. I just can't help but feel they're low. Consider his 1970 season. '70 was a bit of an outlier for the National League-4.52 runs were scored per game; league average for the six years before and after were 3.91 and 4.04, respectively. So Bench's offensive numbers appear a tick more impressive than they would have in any of those other 12 seasons. He played 158 games (139 as a catcher), hit .293, scored 97 runs, had 35 doubles, 4 triples, 45 home runs, 148 RBI, 355 total bases, and slashed .345/.587/.932, good for a 141 OPS +. He was an All Star, won the Gold Glove (1.8 dWAR), and NL MVP. Yet, that's only worth 7.4 WAR (per BBR)? How many catchers not named Mike Piazza get 84 extra base hits in a season? Oh wait, Piazza's best was 73 XBH. In 219 PAs with runners in scoring position, Bench hit .318 with 104 RBI and a 1.071 OPS. That's insane! He had a .990 OPS with men on. .319 with a .995 OPS in high leverage situations. .304 with a .970 OPS in medium leverage situations. And he was only worth 7.4 wins? I also feel his 1972 season, where he's awarded an 8.6 WAR, is low. His average was lower-.270-but, he walked 100 times. He hit 40 home runs, drove in 125. Slashed .379/.541/.920. His OPS + is 166. All Star, Gold Glove and MVP again. Joe Morgan is another I have a hard time keeping off. First off, the guy was a walking machine. 1,865 free passes in his career. He hit .271 career, and when he swung the bat, he could mash. Remember, that's an era of low scoring. Between '72 and '76, Morgan hit .303, averaged 113 runs scored, 22 home runs, 85 RBI, 62 stolen bases, 118 walks, slashing .431/.499/.930 with a 163 OPS+. That's his actual averages, not 162 game averages. And, he averaged 9.6 WAR per season for those five years. He had five other All Star caliber seasons outside that five year period (that being WAR of 5+), but during that half decade, he was historically good with WARs of 9.3, 9.3, 8.6, 11.0, and 9.6. |
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Running out walks and home runs is self-aggrandizing. Pete to a "T." It screams "look at me." Taking the extra base, advancing on pop flies, hustling in the field means something, the rest of it is for show.
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Clemente's death, and circumstances surrounding, elevated his standing beyond statistical delineation.
Apart from that, I was 8 and had a Clemente 73 Topps and thought I was special.:D |
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That said as a nine year old baseball fan in 1971, what Clemente did in the 1971 WS (hitting, running, fielding and of course his arm) and how he did it (duende) was simply amazing. After that he was one of my favorites |
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I will continue this Trivia Quiz regarding Frank Robby till this evening....or, until some one has the answer I am looking for. In the early 1970's, we would drive down to Bradenton (Florida) to visit my in-laws. My wife's Grandfather, Chris, had tickets to the Pirates' Spring training games at Bradenton. In 1972, our seats were near the field, midway between 1st base and the Foul pole. When Roberto came out to Right field, he would first come over to the stands and converse with many of us. He was such a really friendly guy. And, it was a pleasure to see him play at close range.... fielding his position and making some great throws to cut-off runners. TED Z T206 Reference . |
OK, some of you were heading down the right track with your replies.....but, fell short of your destination.
The answer to this Frank Robby Quiz that I've been looking for is actually in the form of a question to you. I admire Frank Robinson, in that he was able to switch Major Leagues and greatly succeed in both the National Lge. and then in the American Lge. I cannot come up with any other major star in BB in the post-WWII era that accomplished this feat as he did. Can you name another guy (total of 15 - 20 year career), who switched Leagues and succeeded equally well in both of them ? TED Z T206 Reference . |
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Vlad Guerrero. Randy Johnson. |
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Jim Bunning for my money. But Randy Johnson certainly could make a claim. Also one could be a wise guy and pick anyone who had similar bad statistics in both leagues. That would technically fill the criterion of equal success in both leagues, even if it was "none"
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Vlad Guerrero is certainly a good choice. I would have included Mark McGwire in this "elite club", but for his PED problem. I forgot to qualify that I was referring only to "BB players" (and not pitchers). I guess this was implied by the example of Frank Robinson. Anyhow, I should have been more specific. Sorry about this....my bad. Of course....Randy Johnson would certainly be in a Pitcher's "elite club". Along with Jim Bunning, Gaylord Perry, Nolan Ryan. TED Z T206 Reference . |
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Joe Morgan was a great player - for about 5 years anyway - and WAR just loves him. He ticks all the right boxes. But a WAR of 11.0 in 1975? OK. But then he goes out and improves in 1976 and his WAR *drops* to 9.6. Sure thing. |
Pitching WAR is weird too. Fangraphs has Trevor Bauer as the best pitcher in baseball, even though (for example) his BABIP against is higher than the rest of the top 10. It also ranks Jon Gray with an ERA of 5.5 as the 12th best pitcher.
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The variance in his WAR between 1975 and 1976 appears due to defensive regression. He went from a 2.0 dWAR to a 0.4. But he won the Gold Glove both years, so the guys watching the games didn't see a precipitous drop off in his defense. Sometimes I love WAR, but sometimes I hate it. I don't think there's ever been a more divisive metric in baseball. It's great for comparing players within one era, but I find it maddeningly (is that even a word?) flawed when you compare players from even one generation apart. And the defensive component of it....let me just say I don't get it, and I'll walk away. The very fact that WAR is computed differently by BBR and Fangraphs only adds to my nervous tick. When it comes to statistical analysis, I'm a very precise guy (shocking, right?). I don't like that I have to qualify which site I'm taking my information from when entering into a discussion. The talking heads at BBR and Fangraphs need to lock themselves in a room, agree upon one formula, and then blow smoke for the world to see, like when the Pope has been named by the College of Cardinals. |
Though his stay in the second league (the NL) was brief because of when he switched in his career, I think it's safe to say Roy Halladay had real success in both leagues. He won a Cy Young, then finished 2nd, 3rd, and 5th place twice in other seasons. He moved to the NL with the Phillies, and didn't miss a beat. Won the 2010 Cy Young, and finished second the next season.
From 2002 to 2011, he was about as good as you could get in baseball. 170-75, 2.94 ERA (with an impressive 148 ERA+), 63 complete games, 18 shut outs, 1,699 Ks against 372 BBs in 2,194 IP. Not a large post season resume, but a 2.37 ERA across 5 starts including only the second no hitter in playoff history, plus a perfect game....2 Cy Youngs. He should get serious consideration for the Hall. |
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Hi guys, Larry |
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Always good to hear from you, Larry |
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Best wishes, Larry |
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Hi again, Pete, Larry |
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