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Wonder what if any affect this will have on auction houses from here on out?
Most likely none, but lets see. |
I have had some email conversations with Rob and I agree with him that I probably should have phrased differently
I do want to say I pointed out in his case that 2002 is far away from 2016 and the split with Mastro may not have occurred year. I don't remember off the top of my head when it did, But there has been an evolution in Rob since the split. It was just interesting he was mentioned but that was 15 years ago and REA did pioneer must of the updated auction software to prevent things like this from occurring. There is also the matter of who released this information and how and why it was released. *Note -- not the government releasing*. I will continue to disagree with him that his retirement is not a hobby news story. Look, when you are the head of the most esteemed auction house (look at the REA threads on this board) and the auction carries your name, yeah it's kind of important when you pass the baton. I know Brian, I bought stuff from Brian when he ran Sterling and he was great to deal with. Brian will do fine and I wish Rob all the best in his retirement. This whole sequence of events is probably just coincidental but an interesting way to start 2016 Rich PS Peter Spaeth emailed me and asked about why I did not mention Dave Forman -- I pointed out I glanced at this list and did not cover every name. |
Someone asked if the victims have been contacted...
I'm on the victim list and have never been contacted. |
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Just when I was warming up to you Pete......... Please tell me that you're not a family court lawyer though. Then I could care less. Those are the ones that directly piss me off the most. I think you can basically now be known as the Jason Giambi of this site. You admitted it and thus will take less flack. You will also be commended for owning up to it rather than hiding behind lies. It will be a mute point, it will all blow over. Now I'd like to know who the other's are on the site that aren't owning up !! |
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"Sometimes a top all would be placed and other times we would bid incrementally so as to not open ourselves up to being shill bid, as ironic as that might sound. In each instance our bids were made with the intent to buy back the item and a willingness to pay the buyer’s premium, as we did each time we bought back a lot" Are you saying you placed a card(s) in an auction and placed a top all bid on that lot so you would win the auction no matter what? What possible purpose does that serve? You lose out on the buyer and/or seller commission and have to pay for the lot? On another note, I would also suggest "protecting" a lot would be the same as "shilling" a lot. It may have been common practice, but it was unscrupulous. Auctions have an inherent amount of risk associated with them, protecting or shilling lots removes some of that risk but at the expense of creating artificial, public prices (as mentioned by several other previous posters). Rob G$theil |
Does anyone think there is a possibility that the Fed's may look into bidding practices/records of current auction houses, that are run by people who are listed as shill bidders?
I'm stunned by some of the names on the list, to say the least. Tony |
What a shame.
As someone who prefers business be left to it's own as much as possible, these auction businesses show the need for regulation/enforcement/oversight...at least more so than has been in the past |
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ADDED I have not looked up the lots so I don't know the answer to the second part of your question. |
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http://legendaryauctions.com/LotDeta...entoryid=70524 Here's one that was consigned by Steve, and shilled by Dave, and won by Greg Bussineau. http://legendaryauctions.com/LotDeta...entoryid=74170 There are many, many other examples. JEFF PR|ZNER |
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http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=113951 |
And here I was, utterly oblivious to the fact that SGC really stands for:
"Shill, Get Cash." Thank God baseball cards are such happy and pure things, in and of themselves, that the enjoyment they bring trumps and outshines that odious list. |
Seems to me that SGC should pack it up.
How can a grading company not only grade their own cards (likely over grade) then list them in auction and the shill their own lots. It's bad enough when an individual does it but a grading company???? Ruben Baghdassarian |
And people are worried about the grading company that has 90% market share going out of business.
SGC has less then 3%. If any of these revelations are a death sentence for a third party grader it glaringly obvious that it's the company that's owner is caught up in this mess. How unreal. You grade the cards, you sell them through auction houses and you enhance the price with illegal bidding. Haha You can't make this stuff up. We might be seeing these fellas in an episode of American Greed. If I had a large amount of funds tied up in SGC cards this would make me sick to my stomach. |
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comment.. Boca Raton, has a great homestead exemption like all of Florida...that's why OJ moved down to Florida |
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Here is a list of all the shilled lots consigned by Steve and Dave. Most are SGC, but there are some PSA and GAI. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets...pub?output=pdf |
Forman shills
April 2007 Lot 464 1953 B Mantle SGC 88 Lot 476 1955 T Koufax SGC 92 Lot 1111 1911 E94 Crawford PSA 8 Lot 1354 1934 Goudey uncut sheet Lot 1379 1953 T B Russell SGC 96 June 2007 Lot 1035 1964 T Giants F Robinson SGC 96 Lot 1678 1938 PSA graded collection |
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Just means he is an equal opportunity profiteer. |
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If ANY auction house offers this type of shady practice, it should have been a big red flag and clearly was not worth the respect people were giving it. Just because a person or auction house compels someone to do something illegal/unethical, doesn't mean they have to do it. Parsing it for people sitting in judgement now is a cop out. It was wrong then - that's the point. |
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1) They couldn't bump it to SGC because it was trimmed and were worried about their "guarantee". 2) The pop report with the other graders made the card look rarer than their pops would. 3) So they could have deniability that they showed preference to their cards |
.double post.
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Sounds pretty logical to me. I wonder if SGC's move to Florida was planned after they new this bombshell was coming out. |
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PSA has members of its Board of Experts appear as shill bidders. Maybe no one else goes to jail after Bill and Doug but there are certainly a lot more than just one auction house getting sh#t on them over this. |
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There are just as many PSA names on the list as there are SGC. |
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You see an owner? |
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When the news broke about the move, someone on here questioned if the company was being sold. That might be holding more water now. |
You know what is most infuriating about this mess?! Last spring I taught a card collecting class to my students. Many members on here donated cards/supplies to us and they LOVED it. It was collecting in its purest form and was great to see. I know there are thousands of honest collectors out there and I will convey that to these kids......but I do have a few questions:
How am I supposed to explain to them what this group of lying, cheating, SCUMBAGS managed to do to the hobby? I don't care if you are a member of this board or not......how am I supposed to explain to these kids that a bunch of greedy adults took one of the most wonderful hobbies in the world and turned it into something VILE and DISGUSTING?! |
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Reinforce the love about collecting and not about making money and the hobby will survive. |
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You're free to talk about it over here on this board. Let's see you go start a thread about it over on CU, and call out the PSA names that are involved. No, you want do that because you and have no balls! Grow a set! |
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Regulation is definitely needed. |
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There is a huge difference between an employee and the owner. Use some common sense. In terms of starting a thread on CU about it. You are right I won't. But obviously you recognize my name from there and I have taken on all comers. That is a fact. There isn't one person on any of these boards that would have withstood the hazing I took and never once complained or went to the mods. I obviously have a set. Thank you very much. |
So much shilling and scam, from ONE auction house during a small window in time. Imagine if that window were opened up a little wider, and threw a few more auction houses into the mix? I bet a lot of people are hoping that doesn't happen ...
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Because it can be just a hobby if you want it to be. I never had any illusions that something some people are willing to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars on would be all sunshine and lollipops. I could care less Peter helped a friend out, SGC and PSA names are on the list, or Allen tried to pull a Wolf of Wall Street. I collect baseball cards. I like my signed cards in PSA slabs. I like my unsigned cards in SGC slabs. When place a bid in a AH or on eBay I place it knowing that the item is both worth that price to me and that I expect to pay that amount. If I win it for less, it's just extra syrup on my pancakes. I have nothing against those outraged by this, card doctors, coaches corner, or any of the hundreds of other hobby villains. I could just care less, I'd rather be looking for the next card on my list. |
I'm shocked that Dave Forman's lawyer hasn't made a comment yet.
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Why will you do it over here, but not over there? |
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CU
Someone did start a thread. The OP, who I do not know and had a fairly low post count, generally just mentioned the matter and referred people to this board.
The thread lasted longer that 5 seconds ( or various lamb shakes), but not by much. Not sure if the OP was banned or put on probation :) |
article re forman
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Now what do you say? |
If Peter Calderon for example shill bidded, does that mean Heritage Auctions shill bids in their auctions?
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I think it's wrong to not allow members to discuss a topic like this, but it's their private playground - they've consistently shown that they won't tolerate mud-slinging, especially when it concerns their big submitters, staff and shareholders. Better to get out in front of a situation rather than cover up and deny, imo. |
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For curiosity sake was there any shills done
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not sure Heritage needs to
although that never stopped anybody. Unless I'm mistaken they have a rule that allows a consignor to bid on their own items as long as they pay the hammer.
The more I look into this mess and despite knowing this was likely going on, I'm quite sad about some of the people who will look you in the eye and tell you they have your best interests in mind - and are cheating the hell out of you behind your back. Complicity is equally distasteful. Certainly a part of me hopes this whole debacle hopefully isn't over - as shining a bright light on the subject might lead to some oversight (although a witch hunt is unpalatable and not productive) - outfits like roaches corner are obvious bad guys - but when the "good guys" start to behave like bad guys something should be done - maybe now the fuse has been lit. That Dave Forman has been exposed for allegedly shilling his own stuff - such a breach of trust is truly freaking vile. Along the way I think my TPG of choice has made some bad business decisions. This perhaps a game changer. It will certainly devalue the brand as trust is an important concept when farming out one's cards. Much sadness. |
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While their stock holdings are likely too small to be reportable to the SEC so we could never know, isn't it likely that members of this so-called "Board of Experts" own some stock? |
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Any other Net54 members want to come clean?
JC Clarke - multiple items consigned / all shilled by Jay Dyer Kevin Struss - on the shill list once / but the victim far more often - any explanation? ... |
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Dan
I corrected my post. I was writing as it was posted.
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Nothing. Joe isn't the owner. If David Hall's name were on the list it would be a much different story. While you are at it please post the item that he consigned. Edit: And nice to see it wasn't him. |
big stretch
to think the consignor was unaware of the shilling. Think that could only happen if the house had access to a maximum bid - which they apparently did - so I guess it's possible :-) Besides, I think husband of tammy copped to it.......
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To the person who suggested employees may own shares. That is probably true. But just like I work for a bank and could own shares in it, I am not the principle owner and have no ability to control what goes on at the company. A far cry from the actual owner of a private company who directly calls the shots. |
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Is there a name related to PSA that would have bothered you? |
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And I've now seen information that his shill bidder possibly works for another auction house. |
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David Hall, If his name was listed their stock would be down today for sure. Founder and president. Closest thing to the owner of SGC. SGC is a private company. Much different corporate structure. |
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N. & Cent. Fla/S. Ga Rep: Jay Dyer |
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http://images.hngn.com/data/images/f...-rat.png?w=650 |
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If you think I am happy that the owners of SGC are wrapped up in this scandal it couldn't be further from the truth. The stock market takes no sympathy on anyone and shoots first and then asks questions later. The reality of it is that this type of news would be bad for any company and the market would price it in immediately. |
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Let's also not forget about the Wagner. Wasn't David Hall was involved in that? |
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And I missed those old posts from husbandoftammy where he fessed up. I was off the Net54 site for a long stretch during that timeframe. |
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Nobody gives a damn.
I ran across this article from 26 years ago while googling some of the names on the list...
http://articles.philly.com/1989-10-1...baseball-cards One of the most revealing moments of the convention came at a seminar on ethics. In a convention that attracted 382 dealers and more than 37,000 collectors, eight people showed up to discuss moral issues. "That pretty much tells you all you need to know about the ethics of this business," said dealer Stan Marks of Scottsdale, Ariz. "Nobody gives a damn." |
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