Haven't posted anything to this thread for a while. Thought I'd share this fantastic RPPC of the 1906 Massillon Tigers, 1906 Ohio League Champions after defeating the Canton Bulldogs two games to one in a season ending series. For those not familiar with the story, there were accusations that the second game in this series was fixed to assure there would be a lucrative third game between the teams.

http://i65.tinypic.com/34shrp2.jpg

A few key players in this photo include:

- Ted Nesser of the famous Nesser football family
- Peggy Parrott who is believed to have completed the first successful pass in professional football during the 1906 season
- Tiny Maxwell who the Maxwell award is named after

jeff

Was that before the Super Bowl?

You mean the beginning of football history? ;)

I used to hate the incessant "Player XXX is the first player in playoff history to do [enter obscure, silly accomplishment here]".

Now they have expanded this to be:

First player in modern football history to ...

First player in Super Bowl era to ...

First player since 19XX to ...

First player since NFL/AFL merger to ...

Half the time I don't believe it when they say its the first time something has ever happened as they seem to arbitrarily ignore or discount the early years of the NFL.

jeff

Jeff - I am really enjoying yet another one of your threads. Just tons of information.

That Massillon Tigers RPPC is amazing!!!! (as are all the other items)

Thanks Dan! The Massillon RPPC is awesome. Love it. So many well known early professional players between the Massillon and Canton RPPCs from that year.

jeff

Jeff- what about the claims that the first pass was with Knute Rockne in 1913? I know it's a silly qualifier, but have heard that it was the Army-Notre Dame game. Only further explanation would be first "forward" pass.

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There were plenty of legal forward passes in football starting in 1906. However, the rules were such that it was a very risky proposition that was often considered a last resort. At that time, an incomplete pass was a turnover!

Rockne and Dorais helped to popularize the forward pass by making it a strategic weapon in 1913 and are often incorrectly credited with being the first to use it. They did practiced it all summer in 1913 while working together as lifeguards and then unleashed it on college football in the Fall.

jeff

Although the forward pass had been used earlier, it was only legalized by rule changes in 1906. The idea was to encourage a more wide open game which, hopefully, would be a safer game.

The 1906 Spalding’s Guide set forth new Rule 14:

(a) A player may throw, pass, or bat the ball in any direction except toward his opponents’ goal. penalty – Loss of 5 yards.
EXCEPTION- (1) One forward pass shall be allowed to each scrimmage, provided each such pass be made by a player who was behind the line of scrimmage when the ball was put in play, and provided the ball, after being passed foward, does not touch the ground before being touched by a player of either side.
PENALTY—(1) If a forward pass be made by a player who was not behind the line of scrimmage when the ball was put in play, the ball shall go to the opponents on the spot where the pass was made. If the ball, after being passed forward, touches the ground before being touched by a player of either side, it shall go to the opponents on the spot where the pass was made.
EXCEPTION—(2) The pass may not be touched by a player who was on the line of scrimmage when the ball was put in play except by either of the two men playing on the ends of the line.
PENALTY—(2) If a forward pass is unlawfully touched by a player who was on the line of scrimmage when the ball was put in play, it shall go to the opponents on the spot where the pass was made.
EXCEPTION—(3) A forward pass over the line of scrimmage within the space of 5 yards on each side of the center shall Be unlawful.
PENALTY—(3) If the ball is passed over the line of scrimmage within the space of 5 yards on each side of the center, it shall go to the opponents on the spot where the pass was made.
EXCEPTION—{If) A forward pass by the side which does not put the ball in play in a
scrimmage shall be unlawful.
PENALTY—(4) If a forward pass is made by the side which did not put the ball in play in a scrimmage, the ball shall go to the opponents on the spot where the pass was made.
EXCEPTION—(5) A forward pass which crosses the goal line on the fly or bound without touching a player of either side, shall be declared a touchback for the defenders of the goal.

To properly enforce this rule required a true gridiron with lines both parallel and perpendicular to the Goal lines. This post card of Yale’s football field illustrates how the field was laid-out back in 1907.

https://c1.staticflickr.com/1/308/32...a0cdf795_z.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...5f1566f687.jpg

Thanks guys. Great knowledge. Pulled out one of my old books after read this and found this as well. The book is "The Big Game", 1947

Edit to add: You could argue that the forward pass was attributed to Theodore (he hated Teddy) Roosevelt:
But in 1905, President Theodore Roosevelt aimed to clean-up the sport (football) rather than abolish it. “Roosevelt didn’t intend to eliminate the occasional broken nose or fractured arm,” writes biographer H. W. Brands, “but the head and neck injuries that were literally killing dozens of players every year were hardly improving the physical or moral health of the nation.” So Roosevelt held a White House conference with leading football figures to get the game “played on a thoroughly clean basis.”

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There is an interesting article on this highlighting the role of Pop Warner and Carlisle on the Smithsonian website

For the 1907 season, Warner created a new offense dubbed “the Carlisle formation,” an early evolution of the single wing. A player could run, pass or kick without the defense divining intent from the formation. The forward pass was just the kind of “trick” the old stalwarts avoided but Warner loved, and one he soon found his players loved as well. “Once they started practicing it, Warner pretty much couldn’t stop them,” says Sally Jenkins, author of The Real All Americans, a book about Carlisle’s football legacy. “How the Indians did take to it!” Warner remembered, according to Jenkins’ book. “Light on their feet as professional dancers, and every one amazingly skillful with his hands, the redskins pirouetted in and out until the receiver was well down the field, and then they shot the ball like a bullet.”

Carlisle opened the 1907 season with a 40-0 triumph over Lebanon Valley, then ran off five more victories by a total score of 148-11 before traveling to the University of Pennsylvania’s Franklin Field (still used today) to meet undefeated and un-scored upon Pennsylvania before 22,800 fans in Philadelphia.

On the second play of the game, Carlisle’s Pete Hauser, who lined up at fullback, launched a long pass that William Gardner caught on the dead run and carried short of the goal, setting up the game’s first touchdown. The Indians completed 8 of 16 passes, including one thrown by a player relatively new to the varsity squad named Jim Thorpe. The sub-headline to the New York Times account of the game read: “Forward Pass, Perfectly Employed, Used for Ground Gaining More Than Any Other Style of Play.” The story reported that “forward passes, end runs behind compact interference from direct passes, delayed passes and punting were the Indians’ principal offensive tactics.”

The forward pass is a fun topic to discuss. It became legal after the 1905 season. However the first team to build their offense around the forward pass was the 1906 St. Louis University team, coached by Eddie Cochems. The 1906 squad was undefeated 11–0, led the nation in scoring, and outscored opponents by a combined score of 407 to 11. The open game didn't catch on in the east until 1914, with Notre Dame and Yale (under Frank Hinkey).

In 1952, Dorais himself tried to set the record straight telling the United Press that "Eddie Cochems of the St. Louis University team of 1906 deserves the full credit." Certainly Cochems considered himself the 'Father of the forward pass'. See the attached signed note below.

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/r.../EBCochems.jpg

Of course, Mark has the signed document!

Nice item, Mark!

jeff

Thanks guys. Speaking of football firsts - When was the huddle first utilized? I've read some reports that in 1894 Paul Hubbard of Gallaudet College, a Washington DC based college for the deaf, created the 'huddle' to prevent opposing teams from seeing their signs. Another report states Univ of Penn created the huddle in 1894 to aid Alfred E Bull, their star center, who was deaf.

I found the photo posted below tossed between the pages of a prominent Yale football player's scrapbook, who played end for the Bulldogs from 1892-94. I didn't think much of it at first but could this be the earliest photo of a football 'huddle'? I can't identify any of the players but coach Mike Murphy is in the center.

Any thoughts?

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/r.../image_11.jpeg

My first inclination is that this is just a coaching session or pep talk during a practice. Doesn't look like a football huddle in a game to me as the coach is involved. Or a timeout / water break?

Still a really, really cool image, Mark!

jeff

Jeff,

Yea, that is my guess too. Plus one of the players is holding the ball. Doubt that would occur in a game.

I think you guys cracked the case but still a very cool photo.

Was fortunate to pick up this card recently. Spalding's come in Bio backs, Ad backs, and blank backs. I've never seen an Ad Back of Friedman before. Has anyone else?

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/kF...A=w550-h774-no

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/vV...Q=w548-h774-no

jeff

What, no love for the Spalding Friedman? Thought this thread would blow up! :D

jeff

I've always loved the Wheaties box cuts from the 30s and wrote an article on them (with Joe Squires) a while back for Gridiron Greats Magazine. Picked up this really nice 13x10 Wheaties point of sale display piece recently that is pretty rare. Most of the player images on it are the same as the Wheaties 1934 All-Americans box cuts.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/zK...=w1018-h752-no

Here are a couple of postcards of Carlisle football players who played with Thorpe.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/M2...s=w472-h752-no

Early 1910s image of Emil Hauser who also played at Oregon.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/8i...B=w479-h753-no

1920s image of Gus Welch who was Thorpe's QB at both Carlisle and Canton.

Last but not least, 1908 original photo of Thorpe.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/W2...X=w272-h753-no

jeff

A pair from Strongsville
 

St Boneventure and Colby

Angyale

Hey guys,

I was going through the 1887 Yale Pot-Pourri (yearbook) and noticed this photo of the 1886 Yale football team. George Alvin Watkinson's photo was altered on this team photograph too (bottom right). Watkinson was considered one of the best football players in the country in 1885 and 86. He came down with an illness prior to the last game of the 1886 season against Princeton. Although he played well he died a few weeks later. I wonder if the individual in the photo was just a stand-in all along. Any thoughts?
http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/r...ofer/image.jpg

Here is my team photo (also altered) along with a single photo of Watkinson from my 1889 Pach Yearbook.
http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/r.../1886Yale.jpeg

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/r...Watkinson.jpeg

Here's the picture from Intercollegiate Football 1869-1934 - not sure if that's a different person front right

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4221/3...4814d6d5_z.jpg

Thanks Rev. Tough to tell if he is the same guy, but I think it is (see below). Both team photos were taken at the same sitting. I once thought it was William Graves, but I'm wrong. Any idea who that is? He definitely wasn't a starter. Couldn't be too thrilled that his photo was being covered up.
http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/r...am_picture.jpg

same body and hands

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4196/3...f0a42535f5.jpg

different head

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4270/3...cc8e699b_o.jpg

Spot on Rev. I wonder who the guy on the left is? I think he is the same guy who was covered up on my 1886 team photo (back row, fifth from the right). You can see that Watkinson's head was glued onto that photo too.

Here is the photo from The Yale Football Story by Tim Cohane

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4222/3...3890b5b5_b.jpg

Thanks Rev. Very interesting. Clearly that isn't Watkinson.

Quite a mystery, guys! I hope you figure it out.

jeff

George Robert Carter was a lettermen from 1886 who is not listed as being in the 1886 picture. He is listed in the 1887 picture standing next to Corbin - he might be our man. A Major in WW I he was later Governor of Hawaii

https://c1.staticflickr.com/5/4288/3...ea259955_z.jpg

Rev,

I think Carter is labeled as "Reynolds" in the 1886 photo you posted (from Cohane's book). In my altered photo I think Carter is sitting down in front of Corbin. Both team photos were taken the same day.

Camp's Yale Her Campus, Classrooms and Athletics also lists an S. B. Morison '90 as a Y man in football in 1886. Yale Football Y Men also identifies a letterman named George Grant Mason - don't know who Monson is in Cohane's photo - neither the Camp book nor the Yale Football Y Men have that name. Maybe our mystery man is Morison or Mason.

Rev,

You could be on to something. I don't have individual photos of either those guys to compare. I have a yearbook with the 1890 football team, which has the Morison brothers. SB has a mustache in it though. I'll try to post a scan of it later today.

Hey Guys,

Picked up a fantastic 1889 Yale Pach Bros album from a member of this forum (thanks Mike). These photos are from the Sheffield Scientific School and are a great compliment to the Yale College album.

William Charles Wurtenburg '89S (quarterback photo and senior portrait)
http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/r...er/WurtQB.jpeg
http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/r...urtenburg.jpeg

Charles Otis Gill '89 and Frederick William Wallace '89
http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/r...llWallace.jpeg

Amos Alonzo Stagg '88
http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/r...r/AAStagg.jpeg

Cheers

Mark

For those who collect 1894 Mayo Football Cards and/or interested in the Yale Skull & Bones, you may get a kick out of an item from our Hinkey Archive recently posted on www.frankhinkey.com. Check it out!

Below is a direct link to our Vault page.

Cheers

Mark
https://www.frankhinkey.com/The-Vault.php

Rev,

I've attached senior pics of William Graves and Samuel Morison. I don't think our mystery guy is either. I'm going to the Yale Archives later this summer to solve our mystery.

Full disclosure: These photos are not from my collection. They come from a beautiful 1891 Skull & Bones album available for purchase on Abebooks.com. Price is a bit steep though ($6500).

Cheers

Mark

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/r...fer/Graves.jpg

http://i470.photobucket.com/albums/r...er/Morison.jpg

Posted this in a Wheaties thread on the main forum but it got no love from the baseball guys. Recently turned over the items in my display case and made it all about vintage Wheaties football.

Check it out and let me know what you think.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/SM...w=w478-h358-no

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/Tp...=w1019-h765-no

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/7K...=w1019-h765-no

jeff

That's a great display and some of those are really tough.

Thanks for checking my display out, Jason.

Yep, some of the Wheaties panels are really tough. I'm still missing a few that I've been searching for for almost a decade now.

Also trying to upgrade them all to full box backs that include the Wheaties tab at the bottom. That's pretty challenging too!

jeff

Beautiful collection Jeff! Those Wheaties cards are super tough. I really like the way you have them displayed too. What do you think about draping some black or brown felt over the cardboard boxes in back?

Curious...What is the football of on top?

Mark

That's exactly what I plan to do, Mark. Just haven't found the right material yet to do so. Also looking to get the glass shelf that belongs on the left put back in so I can use it when I want too.

The football isn't actually related to Wheaties. It's a Wilson Red Grange ball from 1920's signed and dated by Grange.

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/It...=w1000-h614-no

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/YF...Q=w800-h458-no

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/1J...A=w951-h762-no

These footballs came in this box:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/zh...0h0gTA=s612-no

jeff

That is a great football Jeff. Nice early signature of Grange too. Museum quality stuff. Thanks for sharing.

Thanks Mark. Appreciate the feedback. The football was signed at a theater from the inscription. I wonder whether it was a premier or something. Otherwise why would someone bring a football for him to sign?

It doesn't look like any of Grange's movies came out in 1929 but perhaps this was the first showing of one of his previous movies at this theater. Who knows?

jeff

Jeff,

Any idea where that theater was? If you can identify the theater maybe we can track down a local newspaper article from that day.

Says "Iowa Theater" on the inscription. I did some research on it a while back. It may be the Iowa Theater still located in Madison County, IA as its history says its been around since the 1800s. But the name is so common that I don't know this for sure. There are a couple of other existing Iowa Theaters in the state of Iowa too.

Couldn't find any reference to Grange being anywhere on 1/21/29 but am not an expert at digging through newspaper archives.

jeff

Wow, your research skills are second to none, Mike! Which newspaper archive service do you use?

jeff

newspapers.com for that one

Great detective work Rev! Mystery solved.

How many different do you have? which are you missing...


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Wow on the wheaties display and the Grange football, I need a dentist I think I chipped a tooth when my jaw hit the floor.

Missing three. Any doubles, Carl? Anybody else? Would love to finish these sets.

1934 Wheaties All-Americans:
Dixie Howell
Williams Sheperd

Six Man Football:
Ossie Solem

Thanks Mike. Appreciate the feedback.

jeff

No dups, it took me a long time too. I tried to get them with full borders so SGC would give them a numerical grade.


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https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...99666eeee2.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...adadc81577.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...151e5b5102.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...695b66c7c0.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...89a300018b.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...c5ea1889b3.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...61826ebed0.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...ec3a4569b9.jpg




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Great stuff, Carl. I was originally going to try and put some 1940-41 Champ Stamps Wheaties in my display case too but ran out of room. Didn't even come close to getting all of my 1935-36 Wheaties items in as it is.

I may redo this case as a 1940s-50s Wheaties display at some point in the future but just enjoying it like it is for now.

What is the one that looks like a football field that you've included with the Big Ten Wheaties set? I've never seen that one before!

jeff

Where did you find that display cabinet? Any maker mark and how old?


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

I bought it from an elderly gentleman who said he purchased it when a old local drug store was going out of business about 40 years ago. It is really, really heavy and the glass is thick. It has an old push button light switch on the back but no lights were attached. I plan to put lights in the display case some day and hook back up the old fashion push button switch to use them.

No maker mark on it that I can find.

jeff

Thanks...be sure to use LED lights when you're wore it so stuff also want fade. Great display (and cards, too)!


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Will do, Matt. Thanks for the advice!

jeff

It's a football field, maybe part of the Big 10 Football game, but I found it included in a collection with the others I have depicted


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Interesting. Have never seen that box back before.

jeff

While its not in very good shape, this is a very difficult Thorpe postcard to find so I snagged it. Carlisle, PA held a celebration for Thorpe and Tewanima when they returned from the Olympic games and these were distributed to advertise the event. Note that the postmark on the PC is the date of the event which I think it pretty cool!

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/jz...=w1196-h730-no

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/I1...=w1202-h730-no

From the description, it sounds like they had quite an event!

jeff

Awesome pick up. Jeff. I saw it on eBay, and was watching it. I am a Thorpe fan, so I have always liked that postcard. One of the items at the top of my want list is the postcard also produced to commemorate Thorpe returning to Carlisle after winning the Decathlon and Pentathlon that shows him putting the shot. I have lost out on a couple of auctions for that one in recent years.

Thanks Eddie. Good card for the want list! This PC might be more difficult but the one with Thorpe doing the shot put is definitely more popular and a very cool card. Like that one a lot.

jeff

I had these out tonight, so I thought I would snap a pic. 1905 Ullman Postcard with artwork by F. Earl Christy. The Tilton is a knockoff from 1908. I'd like to upgrade the Chicago, but it rarely comes up for sale. Someday I might break down and add the Harvard, even those it's a lowly baseball image! :)

http://www.net54baseball.com/picture...ictureid=23150

Those are great! Football items from that decade seem few and far between.

My first prewar football. I love the T51 Murad set, so I decided to collect the football cards. There are 6 football cards, but the Michigan and North Dakota cards are boring to me and don't look like football cards, so I'm skipping those and collecting the other 4. Got the first 2 in hand:

https://i.imgur.com/a0QRC3c.jpg
https://i.imgur.com/eSSWBHV.jpg

Of all the football items I own and have owned - this is my all-time favorite.

https://i.imgur.com/4rOjiuP.jpg

Here are some of my Pre-War items:

1890's Harvard Football Card Mehlin Piano Advert.

https://i.imgur.com/pUp7lxh.jpg

1902 Litho Calendar Card for November 1902

https://i.imgur.com/jT4Qrhj.jpg

1905 Harvard Postcard

https://i.imgur.com/d4bhrBz.jpg

1905 Tip Top Weekly Ad Postcard

https://i.imgur.com/Xpm7706.jpg

1905 Ullman Postcard (Cornell)

https://i.imgur.com/XKA3nLI.jpg

1906 Illinois Postcard

https://i.imgur.com/LEHSPRw.jpg

1910 "Near the Line" Postcard

https://i.imgur.com/ROs8Fpc.jpg

1910 "A Quick Play" Postcard

https://i.imgur.com/6etpMG5.jpg

1909 Gold Border Scenes / group of 4 Postcards - almost looks like a scrum in rugby but who knows with the early stuff...

https://i.imgur.com/Ow0MflL.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/wgjG5jN.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/G9zD98b.jpg

https://i.imgur.com/LQSjhHj.jpg

1890's / turn of the century - small (close to CDV sized) cabinet photo of 2 players of the Empire AC Football team (pro/semipro team of NY) - Great batwing noseguard and melon football shown.

https://i.imgur.com/8w0BJ3Q.jpg

1889 N165 Old Judge Football - one of the first football cards

https://i.imgur.com/niXSjxZ.jpg

1894 Mayo Cut Plug (N302) A.M. Beale

https://i.imgur.com/yZHIVDC.jpg

1925 Ya-Lo Board Game (Offense and Defense)

https://i.imgur.com/NfbNh0u.jpg https://i.imgur.com/L6XZ4Ts.jpg

1915 Hinds Cream Stamp

https://i.imgur.com/QmRSswE.jpg

1909 Canton Ohio Football Player

https://i.imgur.com/kPdSDNU.jpg

1910 RPPC (Ralph Olmsted) South Dakota

https://i.imgur.com/CFcebN3.jpg

Nice stuff, Dan! I've seen a few of those before... ;)

Nice pickups, Dan! I really like that Canton player. Have you been able to find any information on him?

jeff

I wonder why... what's it been 4 or 5 years now? I was on a war path back then and buying everything I could get my hands on. :D

No not yet - I'm going to dig it out this evening and take a closer look and check in to it further.

Posted this in the BST Auctions Winnings thread too. This is a big one!

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/bT...U=w579-h900-no

jeff

Hey guys,

Just posted on my website one of our favorite pieces...an 1891 Yale Football reunion banquet program signed by the team and several key guests...to include Walter Camp! Take a look when time permits.

Cheers.

Mark

https://www.frankhinkey.com/The-Vault.php

Niiiiice pickup, Mark. I really like that banquet program. What a truly historic piece.

jeff