How about sharing your information with Huggins and Scott? (Especially your so-called "tell.")

How about sharing that tell with Jimmy Spence? (I've seen him help you out at shows years ago.)

You haven't done either.

See above.

Wasn't there a guy named Rick Behar running a crap shop out of Michigan a while back...Colossal Auction Company....I assume no, but any connections?

I'm sure you are kidding, but I remember things getting so bad with a guy in the billiards hobby ripping people off, that a couple of guys were on the verge of buying plane tickets to Milwaukee to get satisfaction. These people actually knew the obscure bar where they thief would be, evidence would be in hand, and all they had to do was figure out a way to get in and out with their own lives. It didn't happen, and they ended up eventually getting their money back by contacting his local police department, but it was very tempting.

If you steal from people long enough, you'll eventually get hold of someone to whom money means a lot less than setting things straight.

I did just happen to notice that PSA is advertising the card and the H&S auction on their site...

http://www.psacard.com/Articles/Arti...-ends-april-11

Usually the only threads discussing autos that I follow are those for Mantle - which I do solely for educating myself. But, wow this one has everything and has been all over the place, except for what matters most and that is a cogent explanation for why this Ruth is deemed authentic or a forgery. Aside from the plethora of personal issues and personality exchanges sadly that information appears to have been pushed aside.

Don't get me wrong, I understand to some degree a few of the underlying factors that have carried over from previous threads between participants and I do find the back and forth somewhat entertaining - along the same lines that the "reality shows" are entertaining. But from the standpoint of acquiring some new information to help with assessing the authenticity of a Ruth auto I'm not getting a lot.

So let me see if I can generate some info. It was mentioned that the potential forger for this Ruth has a "tell" in his work. Is this a characteristic of his Ruth forgeries that always appears in his work but that never appears in a real Ruth auto? If so, how does one determine that - would not one have to have multiple Ruth autos that are 100% known to be the forger's?

Thanks,

Craig

+1

This thread has also had several 'talk show hosts', but that's understandable too..

It's a shame that Ruth himself apparently didn't have a "tell". But then again, maybe he did, but that's a secret as well :(

Well, if you guys are sure this guy is doing it how about telling us his name so we don't deal with him. How about letting us in on his "tells" so we don't fall for his forgeries.

Yeah, announce a guys name, when I have no physical proof now of his guilt because his questionable material was returned to him by the dealer who he was trying to sell to. (it was not in my possession).
I called someone a crook, in writing, in the distant past, and what happened? I got sued for my troubles. Why don't you guarantee my legal fees Dan, in case I get sued, and then I will be happy to reveal the name.
Announce his tell so he can correct it, sure thing.
When a certain Philadelphia store owner was on here a while back, we had all kinds of information and many examples in his ebay store of his questionable activities. That was no problem to speak out, for most of us, when we were discussing him. Leon even made a mockery of his attorney.
And as far as I know, the guy in Michigan does not sell retail, so the board members have nothing to fear, he sends stuff to dealers and to auction houses.

Not that I am aware of.

So, how about PMing me his name, and PMing me his tell.

I got sued for sending out one e mail calling a guy a crook. One e mail was all it took, and I had to spend five figures to have the case dismissed. Even when you win you lose.
I would not send you a PM with the name of this guy or the tell.
If you are that concerned, if you ever get anything offered to you by a stranger from Michigan you can PM me his name and I will tell you if it is him, and PM me the next Babe Ruth you want to buy and I will tell you if the tell is in it.

what an entire waste of a thread this has been.

Oh my God. Travis are you really serious or you just being who you are.:D

Fair enough. I guess the crooks are basically untouchables in the autograph hobby.

I have been quite entertained by it, and learned a lot. Plus, we had both the auction house and the consignor participate, as well as several of the more-respected autograph guys.

You just can't look at it like a 3 hour movie that says 'to be continued' at the end, and then the producer runs out of money.

Well Dan, if you can work with law enforcement to get this guy, I will happily give you his name.
Unfortunately the attempts to get him have so far not succeeded, but I hope some future attempt will nail him.
And you are right about one thing, the crooks MOSTLY are untouchable but some have paid a price.

+1
= 2 from me to you....this thread rules.

i thoroughly enjoy and am fascinated by this thread, no snark or sarcasm.

this thread is a microcosm of the autograph side, and the hobby in general. different viewpoints and opinions colliding, if you don't have the stomach or faith for it then go collect t206.

Why not the tell? You can't be sued for that.

(And, BTW, I call BS on your story. Libel is almost impossible to prove even if you had written a scathing newspaper article, or a book. One email? Please.

Good excuse, though.)

Why shouldn't they? The ticket is good.

nothing got accomplished except for the originator trying to toot his own horn and when asked what makes him an expert at vintage baseball, then he gets lockjaw. along with the "i am so smart i wont tell you why i think something is bad"

totally worthless from beginning to end. that is why authentication of autographs is at an all time low. we need transparency, not secrecy. psa and jsa are bad enough, hobbyists don't need to take a page out of their playbook.

if the ruth is bad, prove it.

Yeah Travis, but if some of us think we had fun, isn't that a good thing, even if we've deluded ourselves?

Okay, at this point I'm smiling, so it's a good time to say goodbye to the computer for the day. Hope everyone else shuts theirs down at some point, on a similar note.

David,

Just referring back to the "card was sent to Heritage and rejected by PSA" theory..

huggins is probably an advertiser on psa. that's just a press release that psa put up for huggins.

But the ticket wasn't sent to Heritage. Only a photo of it and I have an email from Ron offering to send me a packet after he had the photos for 3 days. As for psa they have not seen the ticket live (cant speak to if they saw a photo of it)

That wasn't a "theory," James. That's what the OP told us.

A bit of legwork gone wrong, perhaps.

Rscheck, I have one question. Did you at any time offer this item to anyone outside of the auction houses?

I did. One other guy based on the same photos I sent Ron and Josh. He made an offer on the ticket but I thought it was low. The whole thing involved a couple of emails in the beginning of January....thats when I settled on H&S

Rscheck... you don't have to answer any questions. No one has presented a shred of evidence supporting the OP's claim that the ticket is a forgery. Nada.

And, after repeated questioning, the two "experts" who don't like your ticket (especially the pompous twit who started this whole thing) absolutely refuse to provide any.

As I said before, good luck with your auction.

Thanks David. Interesting group of "friends" you have here

Interesting people. I asked a simple question like seven other people did. Yes or no would be easy. You came on here and said you would answere questions.:)

Why don't you ask your buddies to answer some questions, Shel?

Oh, yeah, you did. (When you said you were waiting for those you respect to speak up.)

Too bad they're not as forthcoming as the consignor.

Not you Shelly some of the others. Seems guys have taken a hobby that we used to love growing up and totally bastardized it. I will answer questions because I have nothing to hide. The story I have told is true,

I was just curious if it was ever offered outside of the auction houses. Thats it and thanks for the kind remark.

BTW what 7 people asked me anything? I offered to speak to Chris and he left me one message, no return phone number, I PM him told him when I was available and never heard back.....sorry shelly but I am an open book

I never said you where not. I just asked a queston nothing more. I understand you never had to come on here and I give you credit. If you do not want to answere ok with me. Its that simple.:)

Just curious if you remember the lady's name?

I'm sure you've realized it by now... Chris is an ass.

Honestly I dont. It was 1992 I realize that would make it easier but I dont

I must say, this guy Chris is going to look like a big fool if he doesn't produce something factual and provable that substantiates his allegations.

Going to?

David,

I know he hasn't produced one iota of anything to back up his allegation. I am sure he is doing "legwork" deep into the night trying to find something.

I personally wouldn't make such an allegation unless I had the proof beforehand, but that is just common sense to me.

he wont, he's a "trust me because i said so" type of guy. the very first post on this thread was disingenuous, when he asks what others think of the ruth auto. it was a setup from the beginning. he couldnt close the deal though. that would involve breaking the secret oath of the royal order of the scarlet mongoose lodge. if me and mark dont like a boxing auto, we show 'why' every time and answer anyone's questions on why we believe it to be bad. we would supply as many exemplars as needed and asked for and wouldn't hesistate to show why. it called transparency and being accountable. anyone can do it this way and claim top secret CIA clearance.

David,
When you found out your 1927 ball was fake, you said you asked a member who you respected lot. Just wondering if that member has offered his opinion on this Ruth yet?

My friend Chris is no fool.

I can't speak to the Ruth. But if this is the work of an active master forger, it would be foolish to publicly announce the tells, and essentially provide a blueprint on how to make a more deceptive forgery.

That bullshit excuse don't work no more.

No one is asking for a public revelation of the "tells."
Why hasn't that info been shared with H&S, so that they can pull the lot?
Why hasn't that info been shared with Jimmy Spence, so he could stop certifying this particular "master forger"?
Why hasn't the info been shared with PSA? (Same reasons as above.)

The answer is quite simple. No "tells."

In the end, H&S will not pull the item and it will sell north of $5000. Thy are getting paid twice off that for an item that has been authenticated by the guys they use. They are an auction house and really owe nothing to the hobby, so why waste anymore time with this thread.

No.

Why the hell should they pull it, James? Because Chris said to? The same Chris who told us he left the consignor his phone number, while the consignor has told us twice he did not?

Either Chris is lying, or the consignor is. Guess who I believe?

Earlier in this thread, Josh from H&S stated, "The consignor is NOT in our hobby and is not a collector of sports memorabilia ..."

Was he mistaken?

Other than Heritage and H&S, has any other dealer or auction house reviewed this?

he was not mistaken. I used to buy pieces in the 70"s when my parents went to antique shows (older yearbooks and stuff like that). Collected cards like other kids but stopped collecting when I went in the service

David,

At this point I just don't care anymore. I had to pay for a $1200 car repair yesterday and Michigan lost....if I continue reading this thread I am probably just going to go off on someone and get kicked off the forum.:eek:

I am bowing out of this discussion.

The consignor has been completely open and forthright with us. He has quickly answered every question put to him.
Don't you think Chris, who started all this, should be held to the same standard?

the "tell" is a myth. like mysinger said on the other site, it's an authenticators job to tell the difference and withholding info doesn't help the hobby. its a myth that forgers troll the sites looking for people who give them info on how to make better forgeries. they have genuine exemplars, they have eyes.

they are really spending hundreds of hours watching people talk about bob feller and willie mays so they can catch one phrase on an autograph for their improvement? it's ridiculous. they are too busy forging and trying to make $

the ticket shown looks like the u is over the capital R in Ruth, (something that babe would do, so it wouldn't rule it out just based on that) and the other that Chris says is the same work looks like the "uth" was signed first, then the R was signed last, as the R seems to overlap the u. (something babe would be unlikely to do and would rule it out in my opinion) how does the same guy do that on one and different on the other? frankly, if you compare each letter of each signature side by side, there are loads of differences.

again, i dont know if the autograph on the ticket is a forgery, but please explain how this other autograph matches it?

sorry for showing side by side comparisons and explaining stuff, i know it's frowned upon on this thread.

I have read this entire thread and I do not think anyone intends to call you out or question your honesty rscheck. Opinions differ on here vastly, but it really is about the auto and nothing personal.

Well played, Sir.

sorry

Shelly,

He already answered your question.

never mind

never mind

Shelly,

You asked him this question before and he answered you as I quoted above.

Go to post 270.

Here it is Shelly....

Sorry, I really never saw that reply. Dan please take down my question. I have no idea how to.:o

Shelly, you have the same problem I have. It's no big deal.

(I'm waiting impatiently for this thread to 'rev up again today :))

Would you say the same thing to Leon? I can't express how much I disagree with this statement, and actually take offense to it.
Josh

Josh,

Okay if you disagree then please answer...

What does Leon have to do with my statement?

What do you owe the hobby?

H&S has always been stand-up and has provided as much or more evidence of feeling they owe something to the hobby, as any auction house around.

I won't put words in the OP's mouth, but I have a hard time believing he really meant that statement "They are an auction house and really owe nothing to the hobby"

.My concern is the person that is going to pay through the nose for an item that may or may not be real.
That is it.

I guess I shouldn't care that much, but as seen in other cases JSA/PSA/SGC sometimes they get it wrong.

My point to Huggins and Scott and the "They are an auction house and really owe nothing to the hobby" quote is referenced below:

8. You will pay us a commission of 15%-20% (higher dollar items may be negotiated lower)
of the successful bid price for each item or lot sold, depending on which auction your
memorabilia is sold in. You will also be responsible for any related expenses, such as grading
fees, autograph authentication, game used authentication, etc., unless otherwise agreed upon, in
writing.

You are an auction house (Business) and owe nothing to the hobby.

Leon runs an auction house. Do you feel he owes nothing to the hobby? Bill Huggins has been in this hobby since 1976. I have been with him since 1985. Is it a business? Yes. It is also a hobby? Yes. To dismiss our integrity by saying "we owe nothing to the hobby" is a presumptuous statement about who we are as people. We have always done the right thing, in the best interest of the hobby. If there is a problem, we address it in an open and honest manner.
For this particular case, I don't think we have done anything wrong. I guess I don't understand how "you feel for someone who is going to purchase a piece from us." I promise you, anyone who is going to spend the kind of money that this piece is going to sell for, has their own opinions and beliefs about the validity of the piece. They trust the authenticators and their opinions and therefore they are going to spend their money on a piece they like. What business that is of yours, I'm not quite sure. Additionally, all I've received from anyone in this thread is opinion. I had a conversation with Chris yesterday where he told me in a "factual manner" that this was no good, but he couldn't really reveal his sources on certain questions that were unanswered (including why he thought PSA rejected it, when they have never seen it). He told me the ticket was "bullshit", although again, there is no proof of that and I infact showed other tickets stamped exactly the same way for a different game from this series. He told me that I needed to tell JSA the name of the forger, but I promise you that if Chris was so sure that this was done by that forger, JSA has a very similar exemplar file with examples from that forger and after showing to JSA two different times, he still felt, in his opinion, that this autograph is good. We also showed it to SGC's ticket authenticator for a second time, and they still think it's good. For our auction, those are two of the third party authenticators that we use and offer our items for sale with. The people who bid on those items trust those peoples opinions and bid accordingly.
To be very honest, I have never sold any piece with a Chris Williams LOA (nor have I ever seen one). I also have never been asked by a single bidder of ours if we could get a Chris Williams LOA for one of our pieces, so we don't use him as an authenticator. Conversely, we have been asked more times than I can count for authentication from JSA, SGC or PSA, so those are the ones we use.
I'm sorry for the long winded response, but James, your assumptions about our integrity really got under my skin.
Josh Wulkan
Vice President
Huggins and Scott Auctions

Do you think, say, Richard sells autographs for less than he paid for them? He's a business, too, so, according to your (absurd) blanket statement neither Richard, nor Jim, nor... "owe anything to the hobby."

Josh,

See that is where you are mistaken, I never once mentioned anything about your "integrity". To say you own nothing to the hobby, is not a question of your "integrity".

What gets under my skin is this statement on your website....

At Huggins & Scott, we take great pride in only offering "IRONCLAD", "LEAD PIPE", "NO QUESTIONS ASKED" autographs.

and this one....

AFTER 30 DAYS, THERE ARE NO REFUNDS, EXCHANGES OR CREDITS! ALSO, THE ENTIRE LOT MUST BE INTACT AND IN THE SAME FORM AS WHEN IT WAS SOLD IN ORDER TO RECEIVE ANY CREDIT OR REFUND CONSIDERATIONS - NO EXCEPTIONS!!

What if the exception was that PSA/DNA said an item was bad?

James, what proof do you have that this autograph and ticket are forgeries? None. JSA has looked at it twice. JSA (whether anyone agrees or disagrees with them) is the standard in the hobby. And to me it very much sounded like you questioned their integrity and I'm not surprised that Josh took offense to it.

that rarely happens, and when it does, we deal with those on a case by case basis with the winning bidder and the TPA's to get an amicable resolution for all. I am going to stop now.
Josh

What professionalism on Chris' part! LOL!

From the very beginning--the start of this thread ten days ago--Chris has had absolutely nothing. Asked countless times to put his money where his mouth is... again, and again, nothing.

Because there is nothing. (Nothing, that is, but Chris' bluster.)

So he won't tell you why it's bad either? He also avoided your questions about PSA rejecting it as well? Nothing to see here folks...the emperor has no clothes.

I don't see what the issue is at this point.

Travis made a fool of Chris Williams and the rest of the doubters.

Both the consignor and Huggins & Scott have gone above and beyond to answer questions and work to address any authenticity concerns, including getting second opinions and speaking directly with Chris Williams.

I'd love to see definitive evidence that the signature is bad, but it seems clear that none is forthcoming.

It seems to me that Chris Williams and is the one that feels that he owes nothing to the hobby, as he apparently feels that protecting the buyer from this "forgery" is not something he's willing to do.

H&S has done plenty in this case.

For the simple reason that none exists.

I completely agree.