Agreed. But it's just as clear that fraud occurred in his auctions. Is it asking so much for Rick to address such an issue that he clearly has knowledge of at this point?

Would you advise a client to come on this Board and address issues?

If he had done nothing wrong and had nothing to hide? Of course.

And here comes the spin. Kevin, if I said I had no proof that he knew about it, then why are you asking me for proof? I thought you were asking me for proof whether or not the auction was shilled. Clearly it was. Probstein has now been made aware of the fact. So, what's he going to do about it? As someone that has bid on his items and purchased from him, I think I have the right to know. After all, who's to say I wasn't shilled in one of his auctions?

Peter,

If you read that thread on CU (which has since been deleted), he did respond to the questions about the bumps. However, when he was asked about the shilling, he dummied up real quick and didn't say another word. Why would he choose to address some issues and not others?

So if I accuse a client of yours of wrongdoing, and he doesn't respond, I will know he has done something wrong and has something to hide?

What did he say about the bumps, I didn't see it pre-poofery.

Peter, I'm guessing you're having a boring Sunday. There's an issue that arose here based on someone's auctions which were clearly shilled. It's a discreet, simple issue to address which does not really require much research or investigation. There's no grand jury sitting and no federal agents doing the questioning. It would seem bizarre to ignore it especially when the auctioneer apparently addressed half of the claim. And the auctioneer is not someone who has a history of being lambasted on this board and would have a reason to shy away from making a statement.

I honestly think this is pretty easily handled by Rick.

Yeah, a tad slow I would say. My point though is that with this crowd, I'm not sure I would advise anyone to come on here, even if they were completely innocent. There's always going to be someone who isn't satisfied with the explanation, or demand more proof, or whatever, and someone who is going to infer guilt from the failure to answer the last question quickly enough. I have no idea if Rick is guilty of anything, that isn't my point, my point rather is that I don't think it's fair to infer guilt from his unwillingness to engage with us.

It appears that the seller's response was copied on Post #10 of this thread.

He basically said that all auction houses offer a pre-viewing of all consignments and he was no different, and that pank21 had viewed these items in person and thought they were bump worthy.

He was then asked about the shilling and he didn't respond...and he had a couple of days to do it before that thread went poof. He did post in other threads in the meantime, so he had to have seen the questions.

I agree -- but don't you also agree that this is pretty straightforward? "We'll investigate the pertinent auctions and if shilling occurred we won't do business with that consignor anymore." I don't think anyone's enjoyment of the hobby would even be affected by such a response.

Thanks, Dan!



hi guys,
every major auction house , including memory lane, heritage , mile high , huggins and scott , etc.... opens their items for auction up for VIEWING....
during this VIEWING period both dealers and collectors review the inventory for sale and decide which items they wanna bid on...
( sometimes they bring this inventory to shows for people to review as well )
yes, these dealers and collectors look for cards/items that may bump or sets or lots that may have great break value for resale or items that may be undervalued or just items they wanna buy for their collections...

probstein123 functions like a major auction in this fashion and we have a large pool of dealers who look at items to bid upon....
probstein123 is not aware of which items they like, nor which items they bid upon....we are busy posting , shipping , and handling close to 10,000 auctions monthly.....
none of these dealers are probstein staff and they all conduct their bids apart from probstein123 knowledge....we don't micro-manage the process - just like the major auction houses....
people bid on items they like...probstein123 is managed by the guidelines set forth by ebay trust and safety and we don't bid on our own items....

if you are interested in setting up viewing of auctions with probstein123 like other dealers and collectors, please feel free to call me at 973 747 6304....

thanks
rick

Well, that's not encouraging, is it?

All that does is kick the issue down the road for a later round of questions with the same problem.

So who exactly is pank21? Is that fair to ask?

I think this is a pretty fair response on the issue he addressed. Not sure why he wouldn't also say that he won't do business anymore with a consignor who shilled his own item(s) in a Probstein auction.

No, there is a singular situation here with one consignor/shill bidder. The same problem only comes up if Rick continues to let the same consignor bid on his own auctions -- especially after having knowledge of it now.

Kevin, that question tells me that you didn't bother to read this thread. How can you call me out, when you didn't even read everything that was laid out before you?

Your question was answered in post #32 where I also apologized to Rick...but I guess you missed that too.

pank21 = Joseph M Pankiewicz

Honestly, this is not a big issue for me. If pank21 doesn't want to let a card go under a certain amount, Rick can accomplish the same result with a minimum bid or an undisclosed reserve, or letting pank21 put in a bid at that amount, and it makes no difference to me what route he takes to get there. Where shill bidding bothers me is where the auction house knows a max bid (not possible for an ebay seller) and tells the consignor so they can run up the max bidder.

Is everyone on here really so pure that they have NEVER bid on a card they consigned, or asked a friend to bid on a card they were auctioning, or put in a bid on a friend's auction when asked to? Somehow, I doubt it.

Yeah, feel free to ridicule me for condoning FRAUD!!

David- i did not see that portion of the thread, thanks.....

NOW you're enjoying the hobby! Congratulations.

And the response on the merits is? I missed that.

I have not--ever. And I'm far from pure.

And it does make a difference to me if he shills as opposed to having a minimum bid or reserve price. Maybe the auction house scenario you described is worse, but that doesn't mean this guy didn't cheat too.

To me, it's like seeing a patient (the hobby) with a broken back and focusing on his hangnail.

Agreed. I read somewhere in this thread where somebody wrote that the shill didn't really matter because it didn't afftect the final price. That's not the point. The point is, if people are willing to shill small items/amounts, they're also willing to shill larger items/amounts.

If the "shill" is merely a substitute for an opening bid or a reserve -- that is, the price the consignor is willing to let the card go for -- I don't see this concern. Would you feel better if Rick just puts reserves on cards, and WHY would that make you feel any better?

Peter,
Functionally what you say is right. My question would be why not just start the bidding at the lowest acceptable amount or install a reserve? My assumption is that the somewhere someone has determined that starting at a lower opener and creating the perception of an absolute/real auction (illusory or not) would result in more action and a higher result. If you have a "shill" then this is not what you end up with, an absolute auction that is.

Yes Sir! If I was in Rick's shoes I would do exactly that (assuming I (Rick) agreed shilling took place). I think he has a lot to gain & maintain by refusing more consignments from the shiller. He has potentially more to lose by continuing with him. With the amount of business he does I can't believe one consignor would put a dent in his business. However, keep in mind he can't start banning every consignor that is accused of shilling - he has to be sure.

All he has to do is check the bid history. Bidder IDs are not hidden from the seller. I'd be surprised if he hasn't checked yet.

Well I agree in my hypothetical it's not really an absolute auction, but I'm not sure why I should care, either way, the card is only available over a certain price, and so be it.

Here is the problem with a shill being the substitute for an opening bid or reserve. Let's say Rick has a card that the consignor wants to get $500 for. Rick starts the auction at $.99 and the consignor places a bid of $499 (substitute for a reserve) to protect his card. At this point the high bid is only $.99 because he is the first bidder. Another bidder comes along and bids $500 on the card. Immediately the price goes to $500 because the consignor's proxy was $499. No other bids are placed and bidder number 2 wins the card for $500.

Now, one could argue that bidder number 2 was willing to spend $500 on the card in the first place so there was no harm done, but without the shill (or however you want to sugar coat it), he might have won the card considerably cheaper if it were a true $.99 auction with no shills.

On the particular card in question, it wouldn't have made a difference because the other bids were much higher than the shills. But how many other cards has this happened with from this particular consignor (pank21) where his "hidden reserves" drove the price up unnecessarily?

David I don't see the difference. Case 1, there is an opening bid of 500, or a reserve of 500. You win if you bid 500, you lose if you don't. Case 2, an auction that looks absolute but is really shilled, you win if you bid 500, you don't get the card if you bid less. Same difference. Of course, IF it's an absolute auction you could win it for less without the shill, but you are fighting the hypothetical.

You don't?

I think you just explained the difference.

I was not comparing an absolute auction to a reserve auction, only pointing out that the effect of the "shill" is simply to convert it to a reserve auction.

Peter,
I can see your point and I guess there is really no difference if you are willing to accept and operate under the principle that there may always be factors at work, market driven and otherwise that will ensure that nothing sells under a certain price. IOW all auctions are really reserve price auctions even though they may be dressed up as something else.

Peter, it's been a long thread (I have read completely) so forgive me if I'm repeating a previous question. Say you are interested in a card and you decide you are willing to pay up to $5,000 for it. In the bidding for the card all bidders drop out at $3,500. All except the owner who shill bids you up to $5,000. After the auction you learn that the seller has shilled you up another $1,500 - this really would not bother you at all? You would not call the seller to discuss the shill bids?

What I'm really getting at here is the price for any item is what the market will bear. By shill bidding the seller created an artificially strong market for the item, effectively forcing you to overpay the market cost of the item.

That would definately bother me.

I question the other 2 bidders(with a very high bid % already) that started bidding it up. It just looks fishy to me to have a consigner shilling(which rick may have/haven't known about) then 2 more guys supposedly battling it out with very high bid % up to a very extreme # for a card.

Yes!

Your example seems different from mine where the seller has made a predetermination that he will only sell for $5000, and so in effect places a hidden reserve at that level through a shill. If someone is just encouraged by my $3500 bid to see if I will go higher, that seems different, but I haven't completely thought it through, I may be on a slippery slope myself perhaps.

Fair enough, it certainly can get slippery.

Good night, gentlemen.

When selling we want as much as we can get for something and when buying we want to pay the least. Most here sell very little and are accumulators/collectors. I am active in both aspects of the hobby. In Peter's scenario, where a consignor has a level in mind at which they will let something go and they place a protective bid at that level, I really do not have an issue with it. I can bid and win it or not. I would like to win it for less but obviously this particular card is not available for less, at this time. I really do not care who my competition is when buying or bidding. I know what I can afford to spend and what something is worth to me and that is what determines my bids on ebay or in any other format.

So what happens when you accidentally win your own auction? I'm asking because shilling my own has never occurred to me. When I list, there's a reserve or buy it now option for that.

Greg,

Not sure if you were asking me but I do not mind answering the question but my post was about my perspective as a buyer. I do not consign much of my inventory as I sell most of it myself on eBay or through direct sales. On eBay I use higher opening bids on cards I am concerned may not get to a level where I would be comfortable letting them go. Or I stick them in my store for all of you to ignore and use the Or Best Offer option. If those items do not sell after a period of time I either consign them to larger auction houses or I list them at 1 cent and hold my breath. In either case I am typically let down with the results.

The auction format, with all of its flaws, has become the most successful method for transacting business in this hobby. Buyers are empowered and feel they get to set their own price and control the transaction by setting the price they are willing to pay. This is not typical of how most retail business is conducted.

I do not believe people should have to pay the maximum they are willing to pay for an item but I think some buyers' objectives with protective bids or hidden reserves has to do with the threat it poses to a purely natural auction process of interested buyer versus interested buyer.

Greg

Greg, thanks and sorry I left Peter's name out as the primary person to which my question was directed. I forgot to mention starting the auction at a higher price in addition to buy it now and the reserve feature, and that I too hold my breath starting at .99 or .01.

If I'm understanding right, the term Hidden reserve is being used in place of shill bid and this is different than a maximum hidden reserve, both of which are known only by the seller. These are based on subjective percentages of what the seller expects the card to sell for and differentiated by whether or not the seller has knowledge of the highest bid.

So what happens when your competitor, that is the person bidding against you for your card, loses to you?

If a consignor wins his own card, then he tries to sell it again, or in a different format, or someplace else. This happens constantly, as many threads noting how soon after auctions cards appear someplace else attest to. It's just a fact of life -- people aren't giving cards away, for the most part. The good news about ebay is that nobody can see your snipe.

The bad news about ebay is, although you may not be able to see the snipe, that doesn't mean you can't shill a sniper on ebay. I had a buyer on ebay asking about shipping because he intended to bid on several of my auctions. As I was watching them sell, it became obvious where his snipes were set and I could have shilled him and made more on those cards. Similarly as a buyer, I have bid on several related auctions only to get outbid last minute by the same guy every time. I would not be surprised if some large volume sellers used the bid information on the first few items to predict bidding on future items. I think in many instances they could make a lot more money shilling them.

~R1ck St. Ephen

I'm going to go back to the beginning of the thread. Personally I never really understood/cared about Gem mint 10's, etc until now... Let me explain. As a collector, I actually usually look for vg-ex cards that are crease free, just look ok, etc... Not looking to spend a ton of money on cards, and not expecting to ever sell them for a lot.
This all changed when I saw a PSA 10 Jim Rice 1976 on ebay. I remember when I was in like 5th grade my friends older brother said we could have a few baseballs cards if we helped him with a clean-up project he had around the house. Anyway one of the cards I got was the Rice. This was back in the mid eighties and 76 was certainly "vintage" to me back then. I thought it was the coolest card ever with the trophy on it, etc...
My dilemma is this. The Art Shell thing is just crazy. It's an eight all the way in my opinion. Slight marks on the black lines, some missing color spots on the ribbon. I mean its a heck of a card, but not a "10" The grading thing is in jeopardy if people start to fear that cards can earn a 10 if they don't deserve to. If buyers lose confidence it will be a big problem. To be quite frank, the Art Shell going from an 8 to a 10 is perhaps the most upsetting thing I've ever seen in the hobby. Its the only thing holding me back from buying the Rice

I'm not sure how anyone one here could think its ok to trick a bidder into paying their BIN price with a fake auction bid. IMO that's terrible. Winning an honest auction provides a small piece of mind that there was at least one other guy willing to pay close to what you were willing to pay, somewhat solidifying that you paid what the card is currently worth.

If a false bid is really the same as setting a reserve, then please just set a reserve. I bid differently in auctions with a reserve, I know others here do too, which is likely why some people decide to hide there reserve with a shill.

[QUOTE=Matthew H;1028379]I'm not sure how anyone one here could think its ok to trick a bidder into paying their BIN price with a fake auction bid. IMO that's terrible. Winning an honest auction provides a small piece of mind that there was at least one other guy willing to pay close to what you were willing to pay, somewhat solidifying that you paid what the card is currently worth.

I can't agree more. I think those who are not bothered by shilling and hidden reserves have an extreme confidence that they know the market value of the cards they bid on and therefore will not overpay no matter. But I ask the question: how do they get their data to come up with their determination of value? If they use any past auction results then the data they base their prices on may be skewed by shilling.

.

Daniel- no offense, but do you know anything about what you are talking about? I assume you are talking about probstein. If not, please forgive me. What about these huge sellers on ebay with stupid buy it now prices that are 3 times worth their value, some of whom are praised by some of these people on the net54 board!! They constantly run the same stale auctions over and over on ebay, that have been posted since moby dick was a minnow, trying to ream the next victim! Now I must ask, How does he "squeeze every penny out of you? Is there a gun to your head while you are bidding? Please, for god's sake, if you don't know what you are talking about, stay out of the witch hunt, this guy sells thousands of cards. Priorities are way out of wack on this discussion! Way out of wack......

.

I agree that the "vagaries" of the grading exposed on this thread are a serious issue and warrant a public explanation by the principals responsible. They've already "sanitized" their own message baord by deleting at least 4 threads about the topic.

As for the seller I noticed he posted the following on this thread. Why he buried this response in an unrelated thread and didn't start one to put all collectors at ease is beyond me:

http://forums.collectors.com/message...22&STARTPAGE=3

CU Board members,
I welcome you or anyone to come to my office with a polygraph and video....hopefully, my replies below will shed light on the recent accusations...

this is how I would reply to the following questions:

did I sell a 73 psa art shell psa 8 with a unique amoeba like PD on the reverse ? ans: yes
did I ever look or realize who the winner of the card was after the auction closed ? ans: no
did I tip off to anyone that this card was perhaps special and have potential to bump ? ans: no
was involved in cracking out the card in any fashion and resubmitting it to psa > ans: no
did I have some special profit deal above my 5% for selling the card ? ans: no
did I sell the card once bumped to a psa 10 with the same unique amoeba reverse ? ans: yes
did I prompt/initiate/instruct any shill bidding on this card ? no, I had no knowledge of who was bidding on the card...
have I taken any action against that bidders ID since it was shown to me that a safely bid was placed ? yes, i have blocked that ID....
why did they grade the card a psa 8 and then a psa 10 ? this is a question for psa...we don't grade them, we just sell them...

gentleman , my role in the industry is very clear....we move inventory....we have an active consignor pool of over 400 consignors....
I currently don't have an account submitting cards to psa....I spend the lion share my time busy with consignments and buying large lots from auction houses and breaking up the lots....

we do not have any special arrangement with anyone who buys from our consignments, anyone is welcome to come to my office to view inventory like a major auction house
and I will answer questions via any auction to the best of my ability....if someone wins a cards and decides to review it for a higher grade or cracks it out to resubmit, this is their own doing
and we have NOTHING to do with it - we aren't partners with any buyers on item they win from probstein123 auctions - we take our 5% and thats it....as ebays largest seller ,
we do auction loads of cards that fall in this category, ie: old label psa 8's , well centered , that have never been reviewed before...if a dealer or collector wins these cards and gets some sort of bump , its without knowledge and
participation from probstein123....
if psa/sgc or beckett holders a card we will sell it....if its raw and we think the card has been trimmed or altered in some way , we state this ( see our prior auctions ) ...

thanks
rick

Holy cow, can you say "old news"?

How so?

I still think that is insufficient--refuse his consignments. Sounds like he has enough above board consignors that he doesn't need to be affiliated or connected in any way to a shiller.

Let me throw this out at the board. I almost feel that any card that is going to get a PSA 10, should be "signed" off on by Joe Orlando. He's the face of PSA and how many "10's" actually come in to PSA ( Let me back up and we'll say any card before 1980 of a "star" player. Any pre- 1970 card of anyone must be signed off on ) Joe might not be a professional grader, but he's got a good set of eyes. He's seen enough cards to know what a 10 looks like. Heck, you could even include a little certificate with the card the says congrats, lists how many other 10's are for that particular issue, etc... I know if I were Joe, the Art Shell 8 to a 10 situation would have me hot and looking for answers from the graders that were involved.

Kevin I'm sorry but it really sounds as though you have a vested intrest in Probstein123. Rather than ignore some of these people saying stuff you are quick on the trigger to jump at his defense when Rick himself has not even bothered to address the board about an ongoing thread against him and his consigner. I havent bid with him in yrs because I felt some auctions were inflated. Proof enough for me was the same 3 cards were up as BIN's 2-3 weeks later by him. Maybe the buyer backed out and he figured he could resell at 20% higher than the 25% higher they sold at already. Just my $.02 since I can't prove either scenario to be the reason so I just stay away.

first of all, i have bought cards from this guy for many years with no issues (with no vested interest). I have bought many, many t206s from him that were lower than current vcp prices. But, having said all that, this thread has been going on for over 5 days!! I'm sure if there is any concern on rick's part, he will address it. He's too good a business man not to. I just wish someone would put a stake in the heart of this thread. Also, even if there is an assumption that there is some truth to some of the accusations, are you going to honestly tell me that this is not constantly going on in the hobby to a great extent?

I think many of us could say the same thing. I know I can. But as I said earlier in this thread, how do I know I wasn't shilled by the consignor on some of my purchases? I really never gave it much thought until all this came out.

No one can tell you that because there is probably a lot of truth in that statement. However, this thread exposed a shiller (pank21) and, if nothing else, might possibly make consignors (with Probstein or any other consignment service) think twice about shilling their own auctions because of the fear of being caught.

A big thanks to the sleuths over on the CU boards!

To me the real question here is how did the Shell get a 10. I have seen other 10s on ebay of much more expensive cards that equally baffle me. And through cardtarget I have seen submissions where the number of consecutive 10s is troubling. In my opinion, the 10 grade is arbitrary and meaningless to begin with, as is the 98. I also don't like Beckett's system but that is for another thread; but in short I don't see how a card with less than Mint corners can be graded Mint.

The bidding aspect of this is inconsequential, I could not care less about a protective bid.

+1....the grade of 10 is crazy for this card, i totally agree with that.

I think it's crazy period, especially as a high percentage of 10s (of significant cards anyhow) probably are just bumped 9s.

Very true Kevin. I believe any time that we do find it they are brought here to be crusified by the board though.

I do understand that this is about his consigner and PSA but it really makes him look bad when he doesnt address the issues. Maybe he feels he owes no explanation?

David, if you snipe you don't have to worry about being shilled.

I got a call from Joe O yesterday concerning some Net54baseball board issues. Suffice it to say, and it's worth repeating, if you make a public claim (such as is on this board) you can be held legally liable for what you say. I am not saying to not say anything you want to, but you might want to consider the facts before you make statements. For instance, if you call ME a thief on a forum, you better have your ducks in a row because you will have to be proving that in court. I am not saying anyone called Joe O a thief, or anything wrong was even said......it doesn't matter that much to me except I do think Joe is a good hobbyist and good for the hobby. And your privacy WILL NOT be protected per the board rules concerning opinions of people or companies. Stand behind what you say or don't say it. OF course your privacy WILL BE protected if you only talk about cards and so forth......

I did mention to him about the card that went from an 8 to a 10. He said he hasn't personally seen it, and it's extraordinary, but does happen. I am not making any claims myself about the card. I will leave that to others. Also, keep in mind it's difficult to be perfect in a somewhat subjective industry, when you grade over 100,000 cards a month. I am not making excuses or saying mistakes should happen, but they do. Personally I think the hobby is better with PSA, SGC and Beckett all grading cards....I have my preferences but that will be for another thread.

Um. Really?

It's interesting that Joe O has seen this thread but not the Art Shell... It's right there in post #1.

I am not positive but would guess he meant he hasn't seen it in person. I have to believe he has seen scans.

Those scans (Shell) are so large that I don't think seeing it in person would make a difference one way or the other. Anybody can tell that card shouldn't have graded a 10.

I realize we can be held responsible for what we say on a public forum. It's just too bad that PSA can't be held accountable for overgrading that card. Well, I guess they could if the purchaser wanted to pursue it. I wonder if he's seen this thread?

David, the purchaser has the slab and his flip that he paid for - I doubt he'll be complaining.

Given our hobby's acceptance of slabbing companies, followed by our acceptance that grading is subjective, not much to be done. We brought it on ourselves.

I've been paying attention to this thread off and on now, I keep asking a couple questions in my head and maybe some of you know the answers.

Does anyone know the grading process at PSA or even SGC?
How many individuals are involved in grading a particular card?
Is there a QA/QC of the grade before the card is slabbed?

I've never seen an outline of the process that PSA or SGC go through in grading a card. With situations like this, when we wonder "How did that card get graded a 10?" wouldn't it be helpful to know how TPGs actually go about the process? I certainly hope that more than a single individual is involved in assigning a grade to a particular card. Wouldn't unusually high grades, like a pre-1980 Gem Mint 10 draw additional attention and scrutiny within PSA or SGC?

Scott, what I meant was that if he wanted to hold PSA accountable for that mis-grade (which any reasonable person would agree that it is), he certainly has the right.

From PSA's website: "PSA guarantees that all cards submitted to it shall be graded in accordance with PSA grading standards and under the procedures of PSA"

You're probably right though, he won't be complaining. It's already in his registry and it boosted the GPA of his set keeping him at number one and that's probably all that matters to him. Card? What card? He only bought plastic and a label.

+1 Well said.

You can read PSAs grading process here:
http://www.psacard.com/services/psa_..._process.chtml

If I read it correctly, a minimum of four different people review each card for grading accuracy.

I don't know the official process at SGC, but I do know that I've had grades that have changed during the process (both up and down, and even to AUTH) prior to slabbing.

I'm not as good as some of you at telling when a slabbing company has ventured 'too far' from their standards, mainly because I don't collect sharp-cornered cards and don't have as much exposure to them. I also am not clear what 'holding PSA accountable' would amount to. Do we have any examples of this happening in the past?

More people need to say this :)

I agree. But that being said, I will refer back to what my dear, dear Grandma (*RIP) used to tell me, ""It's your money and you can do with it as you please." Based on Peter S.'s comment today I bought some Novus #2 to help my plastic collection. I am trying for the #1 set of plastic of all time. Wish me well!! :)

I think the problem is with the buyers more the graders. PSA no doubt likes the price, but never told anyone to spend $3,000+ on a 1973 Topps Art Shell. The prices for PSA 8s versus 9s versus 10s are created by the buyers. PSA may indeed promote things via the registry and advertising, but buying into a marketing campaign is no excuse, at least if you're an adult. It's the buyers' money.

So, do I think spending $3,000+ on this Art Malone card to be stupid? Yes, very. But I don't blame PSA.

But if he complained to PSA that it really should be an 8, and somehow gets restitution from PSA, can he expect the difference in price between the two flips? I mean cards?