Bobby,

If sellers are concerned that their GAI cards are being purchased by people who are just going to send them in to SGC or PSA and try and have them cross over (and then sell them for a higher price) then why don't those sellers just send the card/s in to SGC or PSA themsleves?

Now, I can understand if somebody new to the hobby or who doesn't have a clue about grading companies is selling this card on eBay. I can see where they might not be aware that an SGC card will probably be worth more in this grade than a card in a GAI slab. I will cut those sellers some slack.

Howver, in this case, it seems that Carterscards is NOT a newby seller and that they KNEW that GAI cards graded early in the company's history have a better reputation than those graded at a later date. Thus, they played up that fact to try and get a higher selling price.

As I see it, Carterscards was HOPING whoever won their auction was "buying the slab and not the card" while also HOPING that the buyer didn't know about GIA's reputation.

In this case, they were wrong and have been called out on it.

David

As The Hobby Turns
 

Yes.
I just hate to see these unsettled transactions when I know that most of the people who participate in the hobby are well intentioned and honest, including the buyer and the seller in this matter, most likely.

Hopefully the seller wasn't in a coma or some other unavoidable detainment and suddenly wakes up to this thread :eek:

People can have opinions all they want, but I think the ebay buyer protection terms and conditions are pretty clear. It doesnt really matter what you would do, or what a different auction house would do. Ebay has its own rules and you have follow those on ebay.

"What happens if a buyer believes an item is not authentic?

Items that are suspected of being counterfeit are covered by the eBay Buyer Protection Policy, subject to the above and these additional terms:

*

Sellers and buyers must work together in good faith during the resolution process to satisfy buyer concerns that an item may not be authentic. For example, sellers should provide the buyer with appropriate documentation or other assurances that the item is authentic, if such information is available.
*

Where the seller is not able to satisfy the buyer's concerns about the authenticity of an item, sellers agree that the buyer will typically have to return the item to the seller before getting a refund. Buyers agree that they will typically be required to return the item to the seller before getting a refund. Costs of return shipping will be paid by the buyer unless the buyer and seller agree otherwise. Where buyers are not required to return the item, buyers agree to cooperate with us to ensure the proper disposal of the item as described below. Due to the unresolved dispute regarding the authenticity of the item, sellers must not later list, advertise or offer for sale the item on any eBay site or service around the world (including our subsidiaries, joint ventures and other members of the eBay corporate family).
*

Generally, buyers will not be obligated to provide third-party confirmation that an item is counterfeit to open a case. Buyers should feel free, however, to seek such written confirmation from the manufacturer whenever they suspect that an item may be counterfeit. In cases where a buyer has written confirmation from the manufacturer that the item is counterfeit, or in any cases where eBay requests this confirmation, the buyer must send this information directly to us. We reserve the right to accept this written confirmation directly from other reliable third parties. Buyers agree to cooperate with us to ensure the proper disposal of counterfeit items. For example, buyers may be asked to destroy (and certify that the item has been destroyed), or send the item to the manufacturer or other appropriate third party for disposal. Any costs associated with this destruction or disposal may be paid by eBay, in our sole discretion.
*

Covered cases that meet the above conditions and are not excluded under this Policy may be considered as criteria, infringement or a violation by the seller of our prohibited and infringing items policy. As a result, we may impose sanctions on the seller, up to and including suspension of the seller's account."

If a card is counterfiet, then the buyer can return it. Simple. This card has been altered, or atleast in the opinion of the buyer(and a third party). Therefore they have grounds for returning said item within 45 days. Those are the rules. If you don't like them, don't sell on ebay.

Terrific!!! Just what the hobby needs--another felon. Move over JP Cohen of Memory Lane you have company. Wonder if Paul told everyone he was in the mortgage business when he was in the slammer?

pgellis,

No, if the seller is making a concerted effort in the auction listing to state the card was graded early in GAI history (as the buyer says he was) then the implication is that the card has a much better chance of crossing over at or near that grade when sent in to SGC or PSA.

For the uninitiated or uninformed, just having the card graded by GAI might be good enough for them. Now, for someone more knowledgable about cards and grading companies, having the seller put in that the card was (supposedly) graded early in GAI history seems like a ploy to give increased confidence about the card.

In short, seller is hoping dumb person will spend big money just because the card is graded, no matter what company graded it. But, to help their cause, seller supplies more info so that smart buyer feels more comfortable bidding.

A multi-layered approach which lends credence to the theory that Carterscards knew what they were doing when listing and describing the card.

David

The seller listed no returns, so do I on all my listings. This doesn't mean if the buyer is unhappy with the item, for whatever reason (even if he needs the money back to pay a bill), that I won't disregard and say "never mind, buyer beware".... that's crap and in my opinion unethical. I will get my item back (unless it's busted due to shipping) and relist... no problem.

Net54 has a big following but I doubt every vintage card collector out there reads this forum. Is the card now tainted? Yes, to some degree, but only to those who read this thread.

I, as a seller on ebay, would not have a problem issuing a 45 day refund on a card that's in a sealed, plastic slab. A few people may disagree and say it's too lenient, some may disagree and say it should be longer, but I would like to think most would see me as being an honest seller. If I listed "No Returns" on an auction, then by law I shouldn't be obligated to accept a return (I understand that's not the case). Morally, I would say I'm on the hook. I would rather issue a refund and sleep well at night than to have to deal with my conscience down the road.... JMO

No, Dick. That's NOT correct. No one broke tha GAI card out of the holder. It went to SGC in the GAI holder. They looked at it, thought it may show evidence of trim, and returned it without busting it out.

Why is this fact so hard for anyone to understand?

My turn -

I say that no TPGC is 100% legit. When you buy a card over the internet - you take a chance. For me, 4 grading companies are recognized by eBay. GAI is/was one of them. If you buy a GAI/PSA/SGC/BVG card on eBay you are accepting the condition based on the TPGC. The seller is too. What if it was a PSA 7.5 that was rejected by SGC? Or a SGC 7.5 rejected by BVG?

Based on that, I'd say the buyer is liable. But the facts that the seller doesn't respond to emails and (apparently bids on his own auctions) - evens the playing field. A good seller would refund and move one. Use the TPGC as a defense, but respect the buyer and other TPGC determination.

So - IF the card is still in the GAI 7.5 slab - I say the seller should REFUND. If it isn't, I say - buyer owns the card. Good business. But not 100% necessary.

Good Thread - just keep it civil. The language and attacks are getting too much.

Maybe todd should send it in to pro graders, he might get back a gem mint 10

Our country's failing public-education system? Not enough emphasis placed on reading comprehension? Too many big words?

It's Schultz's fault, he's very inarticulate, even for a lawyer. :D:D

well said Lee




Carter

If you are going to be a big time seller sometimes you need to make a decision that is best for the future of your business even though you may not feel it is right or good for you. Just by communicating with the buyer it would have been much better for you.
This transaction is going to cost you way more than 1k not matter what the outcome.

Even the posters that are on you side in public will have second thoughts before they bid in your auctions again and there will be many that will never bid again. Outcome-you lose way more than 1k.

What Jim said.

+1

HUH? What's that mean?

(No. Realy. What's it supposed to mean?)
:D

I know one thing, i am going to get hot and heavy into buying gai, bvg, and pro graded t206s at ridiculous prices. I am then going to submit them to psa or sgc to at least try and cross them to a comparable grade. If they say evidence of trimming or alteration, i will promptly return them to the poor seller for a full refund. After collecting t206s for over 15 years, i have found a new, nothing-to-lose system. Thank you to all on this thread who have made me see the light, and the dollar$.

Agreed...

Anyways, while I kinda wanna side with Caters here, as I have in previous days. Because I don't think either the seller or buyer are 100% right or wrong in this situation. I've stated earlier that the seller should give a refund, but also shouldn't have to. Basically, just because you don't have to do something, doesn't mean you shouldn't do it. I honestly hope Todd does get his money back.

I for one won't buy from this guy. Not because of anything necessarily said during this forum, but due to knowing who he is now.

Nothing to lose except grading fees, shipping, and return shipping and all the associated insurance costs. Ebay wont let you return it if just not a good cross over grade, only if the cardr shows evidence of tampering. So thats going to get pretty expensive for you considering youll only be able to return them if they come back as being altered. Not to mention you will have a quickly dwindeling list of sellers that are willing to deal with you.

Jezz- wow, thanks for informing me. Your 15 total posts on net54 brings alot to the table.

ctownboy
 

Guess you should read the rules section, David? You have a private message in your inbox for calling me out in this thread. I have sold many items in good faith, many cars, cards and furniture. Sue the expert that gives you the opinion, not the seller. I have been man enough to sign my name to many apprasials and stand behind them.

Rawn Hill

No problem, your unpleasant attitude does the same.

wow...this is shaping up to be the cage match to end all cage matches!!!

This is a good point. However, one problem with this is that some sellers on ebay take consignments from others (e.g., just_collect, prewarsportscards, etc). Now are these sellers supposed to reject all GAI cards that come to them?

I've had dealings with Carterscards on ebay and have bought some nice T206's from them. I think a couple of times I found some suspicious bidding patterns by low feedback bidders, thats all.
I can't say technically or legally who is in the right or wrong here. i think as a reputable seller, Carterscards might want to think about refunding the buyers money. I personally feel he is not obligated to do so. When you buy a graded card from some TPG's you are taking the same chance as buying it raw.
I had a similar experience back in 2007 with GAI graded N172's. I bought a couple off of a reputable ebayer and sent them to PSA to be crossed over. Both came back as having been altered. I informed the seller and told him I was now pretty sure the cards had been re-backed. He refunded my money , and got ahold of other sellers that had bought cards from this "find" and told them they may have re-backed cards and that he would refund their $$ as well. I don't know if that seller is a member here or not, but he is an example of one of the good guys in the hobby.

This thread really is turning into a lulu.

I know the knee jerk reaction is that the buyer is always right and the seller should offer a refund no questions asked. But there are a lot of very good sellers out there who may be taken advantage of by rogue buyers who are looking to make a quick buck at the seller's expense.

If I knew I could return any card I wanted within 7 days, couldn't I buy an entire dealer's inventory, spend six days selling as many cards as I am able for a profit, and then return all the unsold ones on the seventh day? My point is that buyers can be bad too. Instead of a blanket statement, let me suggest that each situation should be looked at before a decision is made. Let's be fair to both buyers and sellers.

And of course I am not saying that Todd is wrong here. Frankly, I place 100% of the blame on GAI. Todd bought a card, Carter's sold a card. If GAI did their job right this thread wouldn't have even begun.

But Barry how do you know GAI was wrong? Maybe SGC got it wrong. If the card was sent to PSA & Beckett and they all deemed it trimmed then I would say SGC was correct but right now who knows who got it right.

I know Howard, I've never seen the card in person. But looking at the scan, and listening to Todd's description of it, I'm going to go with the idea that SGC got it right. Just a hunch.

But a hunch won't win in court.

Barry...I respect SGC (for the most part)....do realize that they make mistakes....I can show roughly 50 cracked slabs from an entire set that I had graded that they totally blew out of the water. If I had known they were unfamiliar with the issue, I never would have subbed the entire set with them to begin with!

No, it won't win in court. It's just an opinion for the chatboard.

Guys- there is one way to look at this. A hundred years from now, who will give a @#$%?

Or 2 days from now.:D

Or RIGHT NOW! very entertaining thread though.

Are we done?

I will say this, i think the posting of the newspaper article was somewhat uncalled for (PUP). Carters had excellent feedback on many transactions until this incident. No need to go that far back in a man's past. What's the saying? What goes around......

Oh, I promise you it will get a lot better tomorrow. A little birdie told me so.

David- somehow or another, i believe you.

I disagree. When sellers in the hobby have been convicted of felonies like embezzlement (or, in the case of others, fraud or even rape), I think we have a right to know who we are buying from.

All the more reason to keep a low profile and respond to upset customers who might get extremely upset and go venting in public, exposing possible shilling, bringing up public records that might include embezzling 1.6 million dollars. The domino effect could've been avoided with a simple response, a response from someone who claims great customer service. What we've got here is failure to communicate.



<iframe title="YouTube video player" width="480" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/SnO9Jyz82Ps" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

What do you have for me Kevin. What is coming around?? Not sure but you sound like you may be threatening me here. May not be the best suggestion. I don't file lawsuits. HINT HINT. Never had an issue with you in the past and would like to keep it that way. So I hope I am reading that comment out of context.

All I see here is a bad deal in which Todd got a bad card and a seller that will not respond to a simple request but then has some incriminating evidence of shilling and has a nasty past history. I have my beef with Carters from a few yrs back anyways. This info just seemed to fit the bill here.

Who cares if Todd was to submit to PSA, Beckett, and SGC for opinions and they all came back Evidence of Tampering. Does this change the simple fact that the seller is refusing to speak with him in regards to this incident. This would indicate guilt typically.

Andrew- i did not mean anything personally. I absolutely have no beef with you at all. As far as past legal issues with the seller, maybe members do need to know about that. I just felt like with the card already being graded, that point might not have been necessary. I do agree on the lack of communication, no excuse for that if that is what happened. Sorry for any things said taken the wrong way. I think that this thread has brought out alot of negative things, and maybe emotions got the best of alot of us.

To Clear Things Up
 

This is our first and last post on this site. We are not going to get ourselves involved in this circus that this thread has apparently become. The only reason we are even posting is to make everyone aware of what actually is going on here. For those customers of ours that have had nothing but positive experiences with us, thank you for your continued business and support.

In terms of the original post here from Todd, this is our position. We have been on ebay for over 10 years and have successfully completed 4,200+ transactions without a single incident. Each and every time we have an unsatisfied customer, we make it right immediately (as can clearly be seen in our feedback and our 5.0 star communication). For those that question our communication and customer service, our 5.0 perfect star rating should quickly end that discussion. Having said that, there is a point where an honest, customer service based business can get taken advantage of, and this is one of those instances. So ... here is the situation in a nutshell.

Within 2 days after Todd won this card, we were contacted by 2 other very reputable sellers (who WILL remain anonymous) and warned us that Todd may want to return the card down the road if things "don't work out" with either SGC or PSA. To make this more clear, Todd purchases GAI graded cards for 20% of their value (since we ALL know the risks associated with GAI) and if the cards cross to SGC or PSA he 5X his money. If they do not, he asks for a refund. In other words in this transaction, Todd either turns his $1,000 into $5,000 or gets his original investment back. Call us crazy, but this is clearly a scam. Because Todd pulls this act with ONLY very reputable sellers, he figures they will not want the hassle he may create (as he did here) and therefore they will return the money and he can't lose.

Well, we have decided to be the ones to stand up for the sellers out there and make a statement. See, we delivered the EXACT CARD that was described in the auction to Todd. He knew EXACTLY what he would be receiving and he knew EXACTLY what the risks were of purchasing a GAI graded card. Todd is a very smart person and has been a collector for a long time. He knows this exact same card in an SGC or PSA holder is worth many times what he paid. He also knows that he got this card at a huge discount because it was in a GAI holder and that there are implied risks of purchasing GAI graded cards. However, as he has done in the past, he figured if he sent the card off to SGC or PSA and they concluded there may be an issue, we would quickly refund his money. This time, Todd, you got caught with your hand in the cookie jar.

We want to point that many times buyers are unhappy for a myriad of reasons. In fact, 3 weeks ago a gentleman purchased $4,000+ worth of cards from us and emailed us 1 week later stating that his wife became ill and he really needed his money back for the cards to help with the doctor bills that were coming. He overnighted the cards back and we paypalled him his money back within 5 minutes of the receipt of the cards. If customers are honest and straight forward with us, we will always be with them. However, if customers are looking to "take advantage of us because we are honest sellers" we will not stand for this. As many of you have pointed out, we could have clearly refunded Todd his money and relisted the card. However, in doing so, we would be enabling Todd to take advantage of other sellers in the future and ultimately this behavior affects everyone in the hobby as prices have to be raised and sellers become less willing to work with their buyers.

To wrap things up, we just want to address the communication thing. When buyers out there are in the business of taking advantage of good sellers (like us), they DO NOT deserve the courtesy of our time to communicate back with them. As we have pointed out and another poster has pointed out, Todd knew exactly what he was doing here and clearly did not deserve any return communication from us. We quickly sent the claim to ebay and will let them deal with this. We just hope that this whole circus comes to an end and other buyers out there stay honest with us good sellers and we promise to return the favor.

Carterscards2006 will continue to ALWAYS provide each and every customer with top notch customer service and we will ALWAYS put the customer first as long as they do not try to deceive us. Our feedback proves that we have never had a dissatisfied customer in 10 years and 4,200+ transactions and you have our word we will continue to do provide the same first class service in the future.

Thank you, once again, to all of our great customers out there and we look forward to dealing with all of you for many years to come!!!

So there is a network of sellers who are tracking each and every move Todd makes and then warn other sellers he might back out, not one but two sellers ? So if GAI only sell for 20% of PSA or SGC, why wouldn't the seller cross them and get 80% more?

Come on johnny, can't this damn thing just die????

are "highly reputable sellers" able to see the high bids of each auction? must be a new ebay feature i'm not aware of.

from corresponding with todd the past 7-8 years this type of action would be the opposite of something i'd imagine him doing. he hardly ever sell anything and i'm not sure with his job he'd have time to scheme or if it's even worth his time.

re:gai's stigma...yea makes sense to leave it in the holder selling for 20% and giving bidders free shots

It will die when there's no more interest. You expect there to be no comments after this afternoon's lengthy post? Really?

I'm going to need way more popcorn.

Once again, why did todd send it to sgc in the first place? He never mentioned suspecting it of being trimmed and then sending it off to get a second opinion. He said that he submitted it and that's what sgc said. If it had come back an sgc 88, what would todd have done? A bonus to carter's favorite charity? Come on!

possible shill bidding wasn't addressed by carter. i initially sided with seller...but not anymore...should be an open and shut case for Todd.

Let me just say that I have purchased from you before without any issue. I do disagree your theory of communication. I don't understand how not communicating is a good solution for anything. I can't say definitively either way who is right or wrong, I am not sure anyone can, but I don't think it is a good practice to not communicate in certain situations.

If Todd popped the GAI slab then the seller should not accept a return. Items should be returned as purchased, period. If card is still in the GAI holder and no matter what the auction states "as is" "no returns" and Todd is unhappy, seller should refund fully with shipping both ways. There are no "as is" auctions when buying with paypal.

I just accepted a return on a PSA 9 MINT Dixie Lid that was labeled 1952 but is actually a 1953. The collector, and I say collector cause he didn't care about the # on the flip, wanted the 1953 lid and only looked at the title. This was an easy refund + shipping both ways.

I have known Todd awhile and trust everything he says.

I do not know Carter's Cards but have seen them selling like crazy recently and some real neat stuff.

Dan Mckee

Rob, totally agree. Lack of communication is definitely not the answer. I own a fairly large company and when there is a problem, the best time to tackle it is immediately. Defuse the problem if you will before the situation festers. I will say for the record that i have never heard anything negative said about todd on this forum, however, i have purchased many high dollar vintage cards from carters without a single issue.

As far as I'm concerned the Cartercards post is anonymous and as such carries no weight in the discussion.

Now if the poster wants to identify him/herself maybe I'll take a second look.

"Within 2 days after Todd won this card, we were contacted by 2 other very reputable sellers (who WILL remain anonymous) and warned us that Todd may want to return the card down the road if things "don't work out" with either SGC or PSA."

Sure.

Rob,

You are exactly right. Although I side with the seller on this issue, he could have at least communicated with the buyer even if he planned on doing nothing to compensate him.

Here's the part I have a problem with though. The only thing the seller is guilty of in this situation is lack of communication. Forget about the shill bidding (didn't happen on this item), forget about the criminal history (irrelevant to the situation) and forget about the other crap that has been mentioned that really doesn't pertain to this situation. The bottom line is that the only thing the seller did was fail to communicate with the buyer. I think we can all agree on that.

That said, do we really need a thread titled "Beware Carterssards2006" to point out the seller's communication skills (or lack of)? Exactly what are we supposed to "beware" of? Are we supposed to beware that Carterscards doesn't communicate? So what? Did we really need a thread for that?

Someone stated that this problem might hurt the seller on future transactions. That’s probably true. But let me also state that it might bite the buyer in the butt too. I have blocked this buyer from ever bidding on my auctions. I know for a fact others have too. I just don’t need these types of headaches where a buyer wants to whine because a card from one TPG wouldn’t cross over to another TPG. That’s what BBLs are for – PIA buyers.

I am calling Bull!!! You will do that for one buyer but not another irregardless of reason. I also bet the buyer sold them back at a small loss to ensure you could make a profit. You didn't address the shilling or money fraud either.

I am also on board with peter's comment. Who knew that Todd bought the card?????? Unless you knew already the card was trimmed and sold it anyways, and told someone and they knew Todd and said he might want to return it. That sounds believable.

It's interesting how, in my experience anyway, people who habitually lie tend to do so in the same way.

Nope, not new. Always been there. I had a simliar situations where I had a deadbeat bidder on one of my auctions and I followed him around on eBay letting other sellers know that he was a deadbeat bidder bidding on their items.

Pretty simple actually. Just do and advanced search by bidder and it will pull up all the items that they are currently bidding on.

Learn something new every day, huh?

I'm sorry Peter:( Does it really show that bad:confused:

Gee Todd you musta really pissed two people off who care enough about you to be tracking you and then warning sellers when you win cards. :D:D:D

How did other sellers know that Todd bought the card? Just curious.

You betcha. Lots to be learned in this thread.

wow, where to start? How about this-- since most everyone seems to say that seller did a poor job of communicating, but some think that's just a minor transgression in the overall scheme of things, ask yourself this: What if paragraph 3 of this explanation--the nefarious Todd description-- is nothing but made up BS? Do you want to do business with someone who will outright lie about you on a public forum?

Let's look at this again
First and as noted, how on Earth could any seller know my ebay movements --that I won this or any other auction? The entire process is anonymous, bidders and winners, yet not one but two sellers (very reputable no less) contacted him. Really--you seriously buy this?

Second, why would anyone care about what I buy on ebay, i.e. what would motivate anyone to track or give a damn about what I'm doing. You can look at my feedback, what do I average, a handful of purchases a month? 2 in the last 60 days. Yet these two dealers were motivated to watch me (again, we have no clue how this could even be done) and warn this seller about me within 2 days of auction's end. Again--you really buying this?

Third and speaking of feedback, you'll see this seller left me a positive 4 days after the auction ended. Now if you've been warned about me and my scamming ways just two days after the auction, why wouldn't you hold off on feedback until you saw if I was going to pull something on you too? After all, just two days earlier you're given a heads up, but you go ahead and leave me a positive anyway. Does that make sense?

So if you believe that this guy is a flat-out liar, and a malicious one at that, do you still want to do business with him? In the future, would you want to know about such people earlier, later or not all? I will have more in a few minutes, but wanted to get this part out there first.

not anymore
 

Not anymore....

Last post
 

We post feedback for paying bidders immediately. Once feedback is left, you know who bought what. Use a little common sense guys. This is the last you will here from us. Thank you!!!
Paul

Now, on a more personal level. Those of you who know me know I collect primarily m101s, and by primarily, I mean heavily. I have a few hundred of them. I have no Stengel. Check your sources, you'll see they don't come for sale all that often. So let me get this straight. I'm finally able to land a card I need, at a manageable price no less, yet the first thing I do is look to flip it? And when SGC says its trimmed, I don't ship it off to PSA hoping they'll OK it? I just have buyer's remorse and decide that I'll get my money back (well, less two registered mailings, a $25 grading fee and more shipping fees with the return)?. This is how I do things? Really? I expect that GAI cards will cross or even get bumps because of what-- people generally have real good luck on that? As I said, I stated on my submission that I'd take a minimum of 60--so if it crosses at 60 I stand to make 5 fold on my money as this pissant suggests? An SGC Stengel 60 will sell for $5K? Right.

Here are some numbers for you. To the best of my recollection, in my entire life the number of cards I have returned or sought to return to any dealer, auction house, board member, fellow collector or guy down the street is ZERO-- this would be the first. Ever. So yeah, I have a real sweetheart scam all figured out--too bad this a$$hole and his two reputable dealer friends (who of course must remain anonymous because they do not exist) figured it out.

Second, in my entire life, I have submitted ZERO cards to any grading company other than SGC, whether raw, cross-over, reholder, review, etc. None, nada zilch. Why, if I stand to make so much on crossovers to PSA?

Third, in my entire life, I have submitted a total of THREE cards to SGC for crossover. All three were in this last submission, the Stengel that the liar sold me, a m101-4 Herpolsheimer Urban Faber GAI 8 and a m101-5 Gimbels Dave Bancroft GAI 6. The Bancroft I bought from Tim Newcomb in August 2005 and the Faber July 2005 on ebay. Yeah, I planned on shipping those back to the sellers 5 1/2 years later if I didn't get the crossover grades I wanted. Right.

In short, this guy's story is pure fantasy. BTW, I now see he claims feedback is posted immediately. Well I paid on the 4th and feedback was left on the 5th-- so again, why give me a positive if you've already been told to look for me to scam you "down the road"? BTW, check this seller's feedback now. His shiller has left him feedback claiming "100% HONEST & CUSTOMER SERVICE IS NO. 1". Does that sound like any feedback you leave for sellers--complimenting them on their honesty?

Just out of curiosity, did SGC crossover ANY of your 3 GAI cards??

Todd, help me to understand something. You said that you received the Stengel and suspected it might be trimmed so you sent it in to SGC for their opinion, along with 2 other GAI graded cards on the same submission. Just curious, but did you suspect those other 2 of being trimmed as well? Surely you didn't just want to have them in SGC holders because you stated in another post...

If the holder means nothing to you as you stated above, why send them in 5 years later? Why not just leave them in their holder?

Sure, the seller's story doesn't sound right. But come on, does yours either?

I don't have a dog in this fight, but just want to clarify that it is easy to search for what a specific ebay user has won and bid on. You can do it under "Advanced search"

http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dl...&sort=3&_rdc=1

Just a question Todd. I know this really is completely irrelevant and kinda off topic, I'm just a little curios though. I can understand sending the 3 GAI graded cards for cross-over, but why not also send the PRO with 'em?

We have a thread about a seller who refuses to accept a return, apparently shills his own auctions, apparently pleaded guilty to a serious crime involving dishonesty and served jail time, and you guys are cross-examing Todd? :confused::confused:

I purposely stayed out of this thread until the seller came in and gave his side of the story. Having now heard both, it seems to me that one of the stories smells far fishier than the other. I have some real difficulty with the concept of one baseball card version of Dog the Bounty Hunter following Todd around, let alone two. While there are some other parts of the story that I'm having some problems with, I just don't believe the two "reputable" dealers part of the story at all.

Conversely, I don't have too much of a problem with someone who has had a card or two in a GAI holder deciding, after years, to send them in because he's already sending in another. I've contemplated doing that myself on a couple of occasions, if for no other reason to have uniformity in the cards that I have slabbed. Others may disagree, but to the extent that I think that slabs are attractive at all (and I'm still not a huge fan of them), I prefer the look of the SGC slabs to the look of the others.

Kenny Cole

Todd- why did you send it to sgc, and why was that not in your original post? You only indicated that sgc deemed it trimmed. There was no indication from your original post that you immediately suspected trimming. Am i missing something?

Peter- no offense, but i have suspected many ebay users on shilling. Seems to be a very constant issue

David- thats a valid point

Is this not obvious? Todd suspected the card was trimmed, but didn't think it appropriate to return it on his own suspicion, so wanted to get a professional opinion. This witch hunt is ridiculous.

Kevin, he didn't make mention in his first post of suspecting the card being trimmed. He only threw in that very pertinent piece of information after he was being questioned (see post #32).

Peter- it would have been alot clearer to everyone had he said that in his initial post. " i suspected obvious trimming so i sent it in to another grader" that was not said unless i am missing something.

Communication (Again)
 

Seems the "circus" that this thread became can be traced back to the lack of communication w/the buyer in the first place.

Was all this worth it?

And therefore, what? Not even worth discussing, as opposed to Todd's scheming?