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My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"

Posted By: shelly jaffeThe end.

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"

Posted By: sagardWell I won a copy via Ebay. So I guess I'll find out the fuss first hand. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> My opinion is that it doesn't really matter anymore how this card came about. SGC would slap an "8/88" on that thing in a heartbeat if given the chance. GAI would fire it into a comfy 8.5.

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"

Posted By: MikeUI finally got around to reading my copy. I will be a contrarian and say I enjoyed the book. However, I do not think it is a healthy introduction to the hobby for newcomers or the casual observer and will likely hinder, to some extent, new hobby growth. Some more interesting quotes from the book that I have not seen posted (DANGER EXPLICT LANGUAGE): Pg 80 First Paragraph: Lifson agreed that the card wasn’t cut properly. Sevchuk had told them at the Hicksville shop that it had come from a sheet. He remembered calling Sevchuk later from his parents’ house to ask if there were more sheets where this one had come from – Sevchuk had said in the store that day there might be. “It had an odd shape,” Lifson said of The Card. “It was obvious that card had never been in a pack of cigarettes. I’ve always been adamant about that. They said it was in a sheet. Otherwise, cards don’t survive like that.” Pg. 86 last paragraph and 87 1-3 Paragraphs: “Look, McNall was saying, what the ****? The card is trimmed? Sotheby’s was the agent – they didn’t know,” Evans said. “Copeland was the guy that bought the card from Mastro. Mastro set all this up. He had to take care of it. He had to prove it was not trimmed and get it graded,” said Evans. Fortunately for Mastro, one of the first graders hired by PSA was Bill Hughes. Mastro and Hughes had known each other for years. Hughes was a well-known card and memorabilia dealer with weekly ads in Sports Card Digest, a visible face on the card-show circuit. Evans even speculates that Mastro had a hand in picking Hughes to grade it. “I can hear him saying it now: I don’t want no ****ing talk about that card being trimmed. I want it to be ****ing authentic.” Pg. 112 paragraph 3 and 4. Still, not everyone was convinced. A few weeks after the card was graded, Mike Gutierrez, a consultant for McNall’s Superior Galleries, told the Chicago Tribune that he had some problems with the card. Regardless of PSA’s opinion, The Card had been altered, he said. Gutierrez didn’t know about the dealings between Mastro and Ray at the Hicksville store, but he knew by examining the card for McNall that it didn’t look right. “The card was definitely cut at some point,” Gutierrez said. “I don’t know when it was cut, or by whom, but it sure was. I have not doubt.” Pg. 137 paragraph 2 Gidwitz may seem quirky, but he is a sophisticated collector. Gidwitz knew all the rumors about The Cards flaws and, based on his experience as a collector, suspected it had been trimmed. “It never came up,” insists Lifson, of whether Gidwitz would have even cared. “It just didn’t matter.” Pg. 139 paragraph 2 “I want to make it clear,” he said. “Do you understand? It really ****ing irritates me. I want to make it perfectly clear who sold the Honus Wagner card. It was me and Rob. Pg. 184 paragraph 2 Lifson is convinced that his cleanup campaign is the only way the collectibles industry can right itself and survive. There is too much graft, too much fraud, too much money being changed in too few hands to think otherwise. Lifson put what is going on in simple terms. “It’s called stealing,” he said. Pg. 195 and 196: Hughes’s confession didn’t shock hobby old-timers. Josh Evans, Bill Mastro’s long-standing rival, said Mastro told him several times that he had trimmed the card to make it the best card in the history of the hobby. “The first time he said it, was at a show after it sold for $110,000 to Copeland,” Evans remembered. “I said, how could you trim a card like that? He said, what’s wrong with that? It was oversized. I said, it doesn’t matter. You still have to tell the people who bought it. It was always an interesting topic of conversation. We also talked about it after Gretzky bought it.”

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"

Posted By: boxingcardmanEither they are false quotes (in which case I would expect fervent denials from the alleged speakers followed by defamation actions) or they are accurate, in which case they present a pretty damning case against the card having been issued 100 years ago in its present form. Add to that Hughes's saying that he thought the card was trimmed when he examined it for PSA but authenticated it anyhow for the good of the hobby (aka the good of PSA) and I think it more likely than not that the card was cut from a sheet in recent times and trimmed and encapsulated with PSA knowingly included in the conspiracy to make the card the #1 card in the hobby. All of that of course means nothing if PSA stands behind it financially. Like stocks, the issue is less what the card is "worth" than what the perception of the card (company) is within a small group of wealthy men (institutional investors) and their advisors and confidants. I remember when Gidwitz bought it and said that the card was a better investment then (with the Gretzky-McNall cachet) than it had been when Gretzky and McNall purchased it. He was right--perception is everything.

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"

Posted By: Frank EvanovWhile Mastro is taking a licking here, his silence is indeed deafening. Rob L. comes off pretty much unscathed, even though he was present the day of the sale and he did provide the financing. Again, considering his falling out with Mastro, you would think Rob would say something more definitive about this mess. Then again, since the authors inexplicably printed several of the Lifson long-winded mass e-mails about being an honest auctioneer, I almost get the feeling that REA sponsored this book and I expected to see one of their buy ads on the back cover! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Frank

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"

Posted By: JoannMike, I am about half way through it, and last night I hit page 80 and beyond. I thought as I was reading of the things I'd like to excerpt, especially from pages 80-87. Looks like you earmarked the same areas that I thought were pretty compelling. My take at about halfway or so: I think it's pretty convincing. Although many here say it's nothing new and we've all heard it before, in this case key things have been said for the record. Having some of these guys quoted specifically for the purpose of publication is a whole lot different than hearing on boards or whatever that someone heard that so-and-so told so-and-so such-and-such. It is certainly carrying a lot more weight for me to see these statements in writing and at least appearing to have been made with knowledge of this publication. Also, whether this is all rehash or not it is very helpful to see all of the loose ends brought together in one place and presented as a part of a unified whole. All in all, I think it is adding a lot not only to my knowledge of the events but also to my opinion and perception. Maybe I'm just naive, but so far I'm buying it hook, line and sinker despite the occasaional toe stubs on not getting each fact about each vintage set exactly right. I haven't reached the part about Cobb and Edwards yet, and at that point I may decide it's all grandstanding. But so far it is a very light and easy read, and that's just what the doctor ordered. Plus interesting and, in my opinion, enlightening. (Oh, and somewhere in that page 80-87 range he addresses the existence of "before" photos, and why they don't see the light of day and aren't published. Not sure if that's all locktight in terms of accuracy, but at least it's addressed.) Joann

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"

Posted By: Rich McgLong time follower of the board and certainly in the camp of "boy prices have gotten just ridiculous". Read it this morning in a few hours. Easy ready because we all know the names, the card and the game. Despite a couple of missed facts on the members of certain sets, the story seems sound. Interesting to see quotes from this group. Nice job Jay. After the posts over the last couple of months, where do we stand on the level of 'doctoring' in this industry? If a Mantle or Ruth is worth 500 or 1,000, that may not bring the doctors out of the woodwork. If the card goes for $100,000 and no one has a clue of where it has come from. That sounds like it is ripe for grifters everywhere. I don't claim to have any evidence or thoughts one way or another but at some point you have to wonder where the 6-8's T206's are popping up from. And not knowing where they came from makes you wonder why authentic (but trimmed) lots are selling for a significant amount if it is such a damnation in this industry. Rich

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"

Posted By: Bottom of the NinthPage #88 "I sat at a table with Bill (Hughes) & Mervin (Lee) at a show in Long Beach in the early 90's, and Mervin showed me cards he doctored" said Shelly Jaffe, the veteran sports collectibles dealer who was arrested during Operation Bullpen an FBI investigation into forged autographs & counterfeit memorabilia. Greg

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"

Posted By: AdamI thought the book was an enjoyable read. I find it very interesting that there seem to be 5 or so "before" pictures out there that some people appear to have. Why on earth doesn't one of those people pull one out and show it to the world? That evidence would potentially clear up a lot. Also, as to those two gentlemen who own a Wagner that they claim is authentic -- I always thought no grader would allow them to be present when a grader looked at it (thus why they didn't want to gave it to a grading company) . . . but based on the book there actually was a grading company that did let them be present when it was being graded and they found it not to be legit. Well I think that case is closed then.

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"

Posted By: Dan MarkelReading the quotes pertaining that Bill Hughes claiming that he graded or was present for the grading of the Wagner seems to conflict with what I've known about PSA in the early days. I believe it is common knowledge that the Wagner was the first card graded by PSA. In this article pertaining to the 10th anniversary of PSA, the following statements are made: Joe Orlando (then publisher of the SMR): "What was it like at the start?" Steve Rocchi: "There were only three of us. Mike Baker, who is now the director if grading, Adam, and myself. We were lucky to get 400-500 cards per month. It took a few years to gain support from the dealers; resistance to grading was commonplace." There is no mention of Bill Hughes. Link to article: <a href="http://www.psacard.com/articles/article_view.chtml?artid=3004&universeid=314&type= 1" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.psacard.com/articles/article_view.chtml?artid=3004&universeid=314&type= 1</a>

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"

Posted By: JKWas the wagner the first card graded by PSA? I had never heard that before. I realize that its cert no. is 0000001. However, if you type in 0000002 on psa's cert verification tool, there is no card with that cert. number. Therefore, its my guess that that number was specifically given to the wagner, but that it does not mean it was the first card graded (otherwise, there would be a 0000002, etc.).

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"

Posted By: Dan MarkelJK, Look at this article and read David Hall's comment: <a href="http://www.collectors.com/articles/article_view.chtml?artid=3093" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.collectors.com/articles/article_view.chtml?artid=3093</a>

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"

Posted By: JimBIt was the first card graded. I remember talking with Bill Hughes around '93 or '94 when he co-owned Executive Investments with Steve Applebaum, which ran big auctions of baseball cards, comics, and movie posters. They had an incredible inventory of cards at the time in their office in L.A. and then later storefront in Orange County. Anyway, I remember at the time Bill saying how he was one of the primary advisors to PSA in the beginning and helped establish their grading scale for them. He may have trained people like Baker. I remember going into their store one day and they had two 33 Lajoies one PSA 8, and one PSA 9, a T206 Wagner PSA 1, and many, many more incredible cards. JimB

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"

Posted By: JKThanks Jim - that seems to explain why Hughes was not id'd as an employee. Im still curious as to why they dont have any cards graded 00000002 etc.

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"

Posted By: Peter SpaethThey graded many cards before Mike Baker or Joe Orlando got there, including quite a number from Mr. Hall's personal collection.

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"

Posted By: MikeUSo Hughes would sell a card to PSA and then PSA would let Hughes grade the card for PSA and then PSA would sell the card in a PSA owned auction.

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"

Posted By: peter chaoThe Border's in San Jose hasn't gotten their shipment of The Card yet. However, they have finally recieved a shipment of Crazy '08. No wonder, collectors here on the West Coast seem a bit behind on obtaining hobby news. At least that's my story and I'm sticking with it. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Peter

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"

Posted By: JimB"So Hughes would sell a card to PSA and then PSA would let Hughes grade the card for PSA and then PSA would sell the card in a PSA owned auction." MikeU, I think you have something a bit confused. PSA was not a buyer of cards from Hughes or anybody else. For a short time, several years later, Superior Auctions was a part of Collectors Universe, but that had nothing to do with Bill Hughes. And they never auctioned the Wagner. JimB

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"

Posted By: MikeU"I think you have something a bit confused. PSA was not a buyer of cards from Hughes or anybody else." Exert from Dan Markel's link: "Condition Census for 1952 Topps Mickey Mantle Gem Mint 10. Fogel-Murphy Specimen. The card came from the fabulous 1952 Topps collection of Mark Murphy. It was then sold by dealer Bill Hughes to Collectors Universe CEO David Hall for $50,000 in 1993. When Hall's collection was auctioned by Superior in 1996, renowned collector Marshall Fogel purchased the card for $121,000."

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"

Posted By: Peter SpaethMike, what's your point?

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"

Posted By: MikeU"Mike, what's your point?" No specific point, just trying to understand/confirm typical PSA practice/behaviors and their acceptance by consumers.

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"

Posted By: Peter SpaethAre you suggesting the card was overgraded in order to benefit Mr. Hall and/or PSA? I must be missing what you are driving at.

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"

Posted By: JimBDavid Hall was a private collector of high-grade sets before starting PSA. When people began to question a possible conflict of interest, he voluntarily sold his collection. JimB

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"

Posted By: AdamI wonder why the last owner of The Card had it reholdered? Any insights?

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"

Posted By: glyn parsonIt was not mARK mURPHY THAT OWNED THE mANTLE IT WAS HIS FATHER mICHAEL. Sorry just noticed i had cap locks on. His (Mark) dad had the finest raw 1952 set i have ever seen and was constantly working on upgrades. Gee what a shock PSA has it labeled as MArk's on their website. Who would have thought PSA could make a mistake.

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"

Posted By: shelly jaffeBottom of the ninth. It would have been nice if you had finished the rest of what was said about me. Not that it matters. If anyone on this site did not know that I was arrested by the FBI I apologize. What I don't understand is what that has to do with my statement. To those who don't have the book, this is what Greg left out.Said Shelly Jaffe, the veteran sports collectibles dealer who was arrested during Operation Bullpen,an FBI investigation into forged and counterfeit Memorabilia.{Jaffe has since become and expert consultant for the FBI on forgeries and counterfeits and has worked HBO and other medias investigating forgeries}. Greg if your going to just take a small part of what is being said about someone it lacks class. What I said is fact and if you have any doubt's you can ask Huges or Mervin.

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"

Posted By: Bottom of the NinthShelly, I don't have the book and I would not read the book. I was given the excerpt and felt it should be posted. He said, she said does not constitute proof. I have my opinion about the card and it is almost as irrelevant as the "book." Next time the card sells it will sell for more than the previous sale.

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"

Posted By: shelly jaffeIt would have been nice if the person who read that part had read you the whole thing. As far as she said he said. I belive the people that graded the card.

My take on Michael O'Keeffe's book, "The Card"

Posted By: Joseph<img src="http://i189.photobucket.com/albums/z36/1969mets_2007/t206mastro.jpg">