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Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>Dec 7th 1941 we were attacked by Japan......did we retaliate against them alone ?<br />No, we fought WWII on 4 fronts....Japan....Germany....Italy....Africa.<br /><br />This War (and make no mistake), it is WWIII is similarly being fought on multiple fronts....Afghanistan,<br /> Iraq, and who knows where next ? These radical fundamentalist have no alliegance to any country.<br />They are "jihadist-without-borders". <br /><br />I don't understand why most of you do not realize this. I guess your deep-rooted idealogy and your<br /> disdain for George Bush blinds your ability to think rationally regarding the real threat we face. A threat<br /> that really 1st started in NYC in 1993.<br /><br />I would really like to know how most of you felt when Clinton bombed Yugoslavia to oblivion in 1999 ? <br /><br />Clinton LIED and innocent Serbs DIED......<br /><br />There were never any 100,000 mass graves verified. The 1000 (or so) graves that were found,<br /> no one could ascertain if they were Serb atrocities or Moslem atrocities in Kosovo.<br /><br />What is it going to take to shock your thinking back into reality.....another tragic event like 9/11.....?<br />

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Posted By: <b>paulstratton</b><p>I was there. It is a sh*thole of a place to be sure. It's like taking a step back about 500 years. I think it is similar to Vietnam in that we don't know who the enemy is, but to compare it to a "conflict" where we lost over 50,000 men/women is a little absurd. I'm sure some of you who were around in the 1960's may have a different opinion and I can respect that. We may have lost that battle, but we did end up winning the war in a sense when "Big Red" collapsed. <br /><br />These terrorists know what our weakness is and they take advantage of it. They know we hate to see our soldiers coming home in body bags. The "shock value" they get from their suicide bombers and IED's is almost too much for us to overcome. Our strategy of "search and destroy" is poor to say the least. It didn't work in Nam and it really doesn't work now. <br /><br />All that being said, I still think it is worth it. Wouldn't you rather be fighting them over there than over here? Because whether you like it or not they want to fight and they will not stop. It is not about just Iraq here folks. Did we find any WMD's in Iraq? Hell yes we did. Every friggin terrorist we kill is one less WMD in my eyes. Just because we didn't find a silo with a bunch of missiles in it doesn't mean we didn't find anything. I mean if you want to find that sh*t just go to Iran. They would absolutely love for us to pack up and leave. Then what? How long do you think Israel would last after that? It's pretty convenient that Iraq is between Iran and Israel don't you think? What's the REAL reason we are over there? It's pretty clear. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>AP, thanks.<br />Maybe we should just hang democrats instead of your hated muslims. Or perhaps you would prefer side by side?<br />Seems as though you believe one to be in either cahoots with the other, or an enabler of the other.<br />Clearly, both are satan on earth for you. Clinton, ovbiously chief of all wickedness known to have touched these lands, perhaps all that ever will go wrong in the future will also be his dark handywork......<br /><br />And thanks for the lovely elucidation.<br />Obviously there are no democrat voting soldiers, or generals, or perhaps those that are have no gonads, and just spend their time crying. Clearly if it were up to people you call democrats this country would wear tutus as its national dress. Perhaps you would just like to pause and consider that with a roughly 50-50 voting split in this country, the men and women of the united states fighting forces are made up fairly equally of the flesh and blood of both political persuasions. As are the parents who must receive home their dead, their burned, their disfigured, their children missing limbs, all acting on the orders of their commander in chief. And those kids would do it again for whoever gave the orders, whatever the administration, because they are the best of us and bravest amongst all. But they don't get to question, do they? So as you carry on demeaning political persuasions outside your own - it equally demeans them, even as they make the ultimate sacrifice for perhaps causes they would not even support. <br />But perhaps as parents, or merely citizens, we also should not question such sacrifice. We should just follow your notes. Listen to your exasperation at our lack of understanding...<br />Because again, no one else but you has a sense of history or justice.<br />Clearly we need your education on this.<br />Again. Thank you.<br /><br />Daniel<br /><br /><br />Ps. Oh, but, there is just one problem.<br /><br /><br />None of what you describe as a good old caning given to those crazy muslims by Reagan, or anyone else, has done squat to put them all in line.......has it.<br />In fact, from the early times of the PLO and other muslim terrorist organizations, its members drew paltry support and numbered in the tens and hundreds. They were supported by piss ant countries like libya, and the African giant nations of - who again?. As my 3 year old son would say, hooooooooo, scary!<br />So from tiny groups attempting hijackings and bombings that found it difficult to get state sponsorship, and where we garnered world wide coordination with most countries in tracking them down and prosecting them, and having them clearly as the enemy of most in this world, and certainly not openly supported largely by muslim populations in various countries.....<br /><br />Now, we have this. We have Hezbollah, and its tentacles in Lebannon, Syria, and Iran. Myriad Palestinian terrorist groups. Al Qaeda in Afghanistan, Iraq, and Somalia. Egyptian Brotherhood, and others. <br />Oh, and we've managed to make miserable the lives of all Iraqi's who wouldn't identify themselves as Kurds, directly assisted in the hanging of a Sunni leader who is beloved in many other Sunni dominated countries, and even the Shiites aren't particularly grateful - even as they display their bloodlust and eat sweets in celebrating his swinging. No doubt they'll be back to trying to kill us tomorrow!<br /><br />Here are the words of one lady reported in Iraq - Um Abdullah, a Sunni and teacher in Tikrit, 80 miles north of Baghdad, said she would wear black to mourn the city's favorite son. <br /><br />"Saddam will be a hero in our eyes," she said. "I have five kids and I will teach them to take revenge on Americans." <br /><br /><br /><br />Ah, your right AP, this whole kill the crap out of them thing is going to go down swimmingly for us. We just need to keep finding a bigger and bigger stick.<br /><br /><br />Daniel<br /><br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>How can this money-guzzling and human life-taking exercise be considered a "world war," if virtually all U.S. allies refuse to take part in it?

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Posted By: <b>Ryan Christoff</b><p>Cobby, <br /><br />You're forgetting Poland. <br /><br />-Ryan

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Posted By: <b>Josh Adams</b><p>Paul,<br /><br />According to you, what is the "real" reason then? <br />Just wondering.<br><br>Go Go White Sox<br />2005 World Series Champions!

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Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>Ryan-Oops! My bad! <br /><br />Also, allow me to offer the following soldier casualty figures:<br /><br />U.S.: 2998 (over 22,000 wounded)<br />U.K.: 127 <br />Other: 123 (incl. 18 Polish)<br /><br />These, of course, do not include the thousands of civilian (U.S. and other) deaths which have taken place (and yes, including women and children).<br /><br />Is this still considered a "world war?" Stop the madness. Now.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>This thread proves what we've known all along- our own country is completely split and neither side is willing to tolerate anyone else's point of view. The Pro-Bush crowd hates the dissenters and anti-Bush throng hates the war, and if this thread went a thousand posts nobody would back down and accept anyone else's opinion on where we went wrong. If there is so much dissension right in our own backyard, we have a quandary that will not get resolved. I have my own point of view as to why this war is a disaster, but as I scroll down this thread and see how inflexible we all are (I suppose I'll include myself in that group) I just see how far this country has fallen. I'm actually afraid to see a Democrat elected in 2008 because he/she will just become a punching bag for all of our myriad problems. Maybe we should just let Bush have a third term so at least we could keep kicking him in the butt and say it was all his fault. Forget the civil war in Iraq- we have an ideological one here in America. It's not about making the world better, it's about who to blame for everything that has gone wrong.

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Posted By: <b>AP</b><p>It's nothing personal, Daniel - just the facts.

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Posted By: <b>Tom Boblitt</b><p>remove the word Democrats from your original post and the facts are the facts. I think some people would rather sit by and just HOPE another 9/11 doesn't happen. I'm not sure the war in Iraq is/was the right thing. Originally 'for' it, I get more against it day by day here but if we do nothing, it WILL happen again on US soil. Even if we do something, it WILL happen again on US soil. Democrat or Republican, these people see ONLY Americans. The Biblical cries are great as we all know you can find any passage in the Bible to either become a pacifist (....turn the other cheek....) or an activist (....an eye for an eye....). About time to lock this one down and move on to our little cardboard pictures of men again........<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I am coming to agreement with my good friends Tom Boblitt and Barry. It's very interesting to see what others think about this subject. There are really good points on both sides (pro and anti war). If you don't see that then you are somewhat closed minded, imo. I gave my very long winded (about 2 sentences) opinion about 150 posts ago. I was for it and now I am becoming against it, or at least against our troops getting killed in a no win situation. Something has to be done I just don't know how/what. Obviously no one has figured that out yet. One thing I will say is that if you think Bush enjoys what is going on you are dead wrong. Does anyone in their right mind think that he likes facing the thousands of families who have had someone give the ultimate sacfrifice for our freedom? That has to be horrible. Let's let this thread go a few more hours and lock it down. As with anything I think moderation is a good thing. Also, if anyone has to get in one more opinion, after locked, they can always email me and we can chat about it. I want to let everyone speak their mind but also do want to get back to our little gems pretty quickly. After all that is what this board is for. Please pray our troops will be safe too. Take care and Happy New Year....

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Posted By: <b>Peter_Spaeth</b><p>Noone has suggested he "enjoys" this or has even questioned his good intentions. What has been questioned is his strategic and political judgment -- doesn't it say something to you hawkish folks when even James Baker seriously questions that judgment? In all the rhetoric I have yet to hear a plan for how we can "win" this conflict, or how such a "win" is going to put an end to terrorism. Indeed, one might think the presence of the American military in Iraq is a useful recruiting tool for Al Qaeda.

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Posted By: <b>Brian</b><p>Paul,<br /><br />I am still waiting to hear the "real reason" we are in Iraq. Going there does not give you an excuse to make veiled comments about Israel "goading" the US into this war, which is what I think you are doing. I am beginning to hear this scapegoating more often, and it makes me sick. We are there because your president (I did not elect him) wanted to avenge his daddy's attempted assassination, to make Halliburton rich, etc. <br /><br />Nor is it absurd to compare this conflict with Vietnam. In both cases it was (or became) a baseless desire to "democratize" another nation. Yesterday the reds, today someone else. Getting Saddam out of power was one thing--good riddance is right--but that was several years ago, and it's time to get the hell out. The November elections were a mandate to do so, and most people (at least most that still have functioning brains) in this country agree. Let's see if the newly elected congress has the balls to do it. Face it, it was, and is, a mistake--there were not WMDs, no matter how you spin it (oh, yes, I forgot the metal tubes that were supposed to launch missiles at us and turned out to be anything but weapons). However, there were other countries definitely making REAL weapons (remember the "axis of evil"?) when we invaded, and they are further along now because of this moronic decision. Any half-wit in the administration knew that back when we invaded. Israel provided much of that intelligence, I believe. So be careful who you scapegoat.<br /><br />We are closer to WWIII now than before because the president went after the wrong enemy.<br />Brian

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Peter- No doubt hindsight is 20/20. I doubt seriously that if Bush knew what he knows today he would do it the same way. I think he did what he thought was best, as you have said, and it didn't/hasn't worked. If our goal is to protect our country maybe we could pull out from over there, in a structured way, and use those resources to protect our own shores better? We could also still support our allies (Israel etc..) with those same resources. Fighting in the streets over there isn't working. regards

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Leon- there are many things I could wish for in 2007, but if I could pick one that related to this thread it is that there could be a lot more tolerance of other people's opinions. There are clearly two sharply divided sides, and it would be productive if everyone stopped being so close minded and realize none of us has worked out the world's problems. We all have spent some time thinking about these issues. We live in very dangerous times and are all aware another 9/11 is very likely to happen here one day. But nobody on this board, myself included, has THE ANSWER. We are merely expressing personal opinions, but too many of us are pigheaded and believe that only MY solution is the right one, and to hell with everybody else. If we could all make a resolution, let's agree that the Democrats are not the cause of all our problems, the Republicans are not the cause, and it's not a black and white world of liberals against conservatives. This is the small-minded thinking that is slowly destroying the fabric of this country. How about we all agree that the other guy may actually have something worthwhile to say, and it's worth listening? I've been watching this thread closely and you know what- we are all as clueless as the next guy. Let's stop pretending any single one of us has it all worked out. Thank you, and let's have a happy and healthy 2007! Regards, Barry

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Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>Barry is correct. This is why talking about politics is a waste of time, other than to pass the time at cocktail parties.<br /><br />Sad to say, but neither side is "right," or should I say, "correct." If ~50% of the country doesn't believe a certain viewpoint, it suggests that that viewpoint is flawed in some fashion. If Dems., Libertarians, Greens, etc. compose 50% of more of the population, they're not wrong. Nobody can say with a straight face that this many people (many of whom are very intelligent), are "wrong," simply because they haven't been in "power." Sometimes I do think an IQ test should be a prerequisite to voting.<br /><br />The biggest problem I have is the condascending attitude the current administration has, as does many of its followers. The "if you don't like it, go to Canada" viewpoint is tired. Just because the current admin. and less than 50% of the nation believes this campaign is good, doesn't make it good. We all need to resepct each other's opinions (GOP and Dem.) and work towards a common good. Blaming each other and shoving each other's doctrines down our throats is the reason we're in this mess in the first place and why there are millions in our own country who are suffering, with no way out. <br /><br />Let's have some compassion for each other and those less fortunate, starting on our own soil. This won't make us "bleeding heart pussies."

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Posted By: <b>Peter_Spaeth</b><p>Cobby, Dems and Republicans did work together and came up with the Baker-Hamilton report, but so far the Administration has essentially dismissed it as they know better.

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Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>I suppose we haven't really learned anything from the report compiled by the Joint Inquiry into Intelligence Community, other than, don't carry shampoo on airplanes.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Hey, I've got opinions about everything and I too am totally fed up with our administration. But I also realize I'm just a hack who sells baseball cards and reads the NY Times every morning, so why should I delude myself into thinking I have the answer to all the world's problems? I don't, and it would probably be a good idea if they didn't elect me president, because I would f*** things up even worse. That's why I am willing to listen to what other people have to say, because a lot of people on this board are a lot smarter than I am. I might strongly disagree with an opinion, but no harm with that. It wouldn't be a bad idea if others were willing to listen, too.

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Posted By: <b>AP</b><p>I fail to see what the point of this statement is: There were no Weapons of Mass Destruction. We may not have found any, but they certainly were there at one time.<br /><br />They never found Jack the Ripper but those women are still dead. <br /><br />Also - what's everybody so worried about? God's in sovereign control of everything.

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Posted By: <b>Brian</b><p>Barry, I sincerely doubt that you would f*&^%! things up worse......<br />I propose putting Barry on the ballot for the next Presidential election.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Fine- put me on the ballot for the Lunatic Party.

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Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>This whole two sides to this particular argument thing......<br /><br />I understand one side.<br /><br />A. This is going horribly, too much death and scarring, too much hate being fostered, has not achieved any desired goals, time to get out and prepare a new strategy for targeting Al Qaeda while perhaps rebuilding a shattered image worldwide.<br /><br />B. ?<br /><br /><br />What could be a measurable reason for remaining? Are we more likely to ferret out Al Qaeda by staying on the ground? How is that going for us and why is it likely to change? Will they all of a sudden start wearing unique patterned scarves or hoods for us to more easily target them?<br />Or will the Iraqi people, if delivered to a solution that involves an agreement to stop killing eachother and living under some sort of agreed upon political and social system, begin to forgive us Americans for any pains we forced them to go through? Seriously? Will they teach love and understanding, or at the very least respect for Western culture in their schools and homes...?<br />I'm just at a complete loss as to what we can deliver to them whilst being there, that we could not support financially, with infrastructure, with all other means from outside the country?<br /><br />This country of extraordinary divisions - perhaps even larger than our own (see AP's and Ted's warm and fuzzy feelings to half the population of this country), will probably need to come to agreement, tear itself up again, come to agreement, tear itself up again, many times before it can reach any long lasting peace. That's a road for them to take, and believe in, NOT OURS!!!<br /><br />Daniel

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Posted By: <b>Cat</b><p>Barry/Leon:<br /><br />You both wrote something to the effect "at least listen and be tolerant of other's opinions." I couldn't agree more. The only thing I really know is that "I don't know." My only other post on this topic, at least my only other serious post, stated. "there are no crystal balls with these issues." Many of our Congressmen (all three of my congress"men" are females oddly enough) have positions based on ability to get elected/reelected and that's not trustworthy to me. Many Republicans ran from Bush like maniacs during election time, I believe, because Bush was getting hammered in the polls. We let polls frame our political landscape in this country (both parties). We let the uninformed determine policy to a large extent.<br /><br />Bush and his cabinet have made mistakes... a lot of mistakes. Most of the mistakes, I believe, have been how they have handled this situation publicly. Attempting to get some stability in the Middle East is the right move for our safety. I don't think doing nothing is an option any longer. I don't think that our intelligence was bad in regards to Iraq. Like someone else said perhaps we didn't find the warheads that we thought we would, but Iraq was the correct starting point for change...maybe we won't get there.<br /><br />I learned at a young age that if you passively let somone take your lunch money every morning on the way to school the only predictable event is that you will have you lunch money stolen each morning. On the other hand if you fight back, you change the outcome. You don't always have to win the fight, you just have to bloody a few noses. Similarly, if we do nothing on a worldwide basis, expect to have our freedom and safety (and lives) slowly taken from us. Based on what happened to Hussein, how do you think other lunatic leaders will act in the future? Do you think our administration has altered future actions by some of these maniacs? Hell Yeah!!! We have cut down our war of terrorism exponentially. Now, to a significant extent, we "just" have to worry about the less organized (and less funded) Bin Laden type of terrorist. That's a big "just" unfortunately. I believe our actions in Iraq have shown the rest of the world that we will not stand passively. This will, I believe, have a very limiting effect for funding of terror warfare against the US. No world leader wants to end up like Hussein.<br /><br /><br />My last post on this thread. I REALLY am on this board to have fun.

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Posted By: <b>AParks</b><p>For those of you keeping score at home, here's how to oppose the war without sounding like you oppose the war - say things like "Bush never had a good plan for the invasion" - taken straight from the How to Sound Like a Liberal handbook.<br /><br />Daniel,<br /><br />Be careful judging what's in my heart with respect to liberals and Muslims. You can't know that and you never will.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>You can't really predict how terrroists will react to Hussein's death, because terrorism by definition is random and unpredictable. But the world is a dangerous place and not to harp on the issue, America would be a lot better place if we weren't so divided. I fully believe we should find a way out of Iraq; however, I know others disagree and I would like to hear what those people have to say. You know what- I might actually learn something I didn't know before.

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Posted By: <b>Brett</b><p>Just because the Americans never found any WMD's, it doesn't mean that Iraq doesn't have them...

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Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>Doesn't mean she's not a bus.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>paulstratton</b><p>Brian, <br /><br />I will gladly discuss this with you via email if you like. I respect your opinions, although I don't necessarily agree with them. I was just giving mine. <br /><br />Has this been handled well. No. Was it the "right" thing to do? We'll never come to an agreement on that. Are we there for oil? Yes. Did Bush invent the automobile? No. Would this country fall into a deep depression if gas went up to say $5.00 a gallon? Yes. There is a worldwide competition for resources going on and unfortunately we are the one country needs them the most. Do you drive an SUV? Do you live in the suburbs? None of that would be possible if gas wasn't "cheap". It is what it is as they say.