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Posted By: <b>PC</b><p>--

Opinions on Soaking/Pressing
 

Posted By: <b>David Vargha</b><p>I too, had relatives who were killed in Nazi concentration camps. I don't find the card offensive. I'm sure the owner's intent wasn't to glorify Hitler. As the earlier poster alluded to, Santayana's adominition that those who fail to learn the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them is prescient to this day. Oversensitivity is the politically correct order of the day that I refuse to subscribe to. The post could have been made in bad taste, but I just don't see where it is in this instance.<br><br>DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>I agree 100% that the poster was saying that Hitler needed to be "soaked" as a form of punishment.<br /><br />I would agree...<br /><br />and this is one instance in which I would be in favor of "pressing flat, stretching and trimming" as well.

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Posted By: <b>Charlie Barokas</b><p>I agree, but why Hitler, why not Sammy Sosa or Barry Bonds?<br /><br />Charlie

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Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>I don't think Sosa or Bonds could retain any more water than their bloated steroid-filled bodies are already holding.

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Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>Thought I would take a few minutes to clear up some obvious confusion, misinformation and misconceptions presented. Not sure if this information will be appreciated or not welcomed at all. Just the facts, Ma’am. Like it or not this is the state of the hobby and has been for sometime. Thought you should know this so you can remove all doubt and stop with the supposition. For some of you this will be a nightmare come true, others it will merely corroborate what you already knew but did not want to truly accept. The grading companies are well aware of it as you should be since you are buying the stuff they grade.<br /><br />Card “restoration” is commonplace among most dealers and even many advanced collectors. Whether they pay for the service from a known restorer or do it themselves, a shocking number of high profile hobbyists are engaging in it as well. It is pandemic. I am surprised more of you have not overheard dealers casually talking about this at shows while they compare work done. Dealers do it to increase their PROFIT and collectors do it to improve the appearance and VALUE of their collections. True purists (those who prefer untouched cards) are very much in the minority. <br /><br />Unless you are buying a collection directly from the original owner, you can assume the cards have undergone some form of “restoration.” It can be as innocent as a drop of water added to remove foreign debris or more deceitful, such as trimming and adding color. All condition cards are affected by this fact; it is not just a high grade phenomenon. Even the VG cards you all feel have been safe may suffer this affliction. This is just the undeniable business aspect of card collecting.<br /><br />No cosmetic problems are beyond some form of paper surgery. A few are difficult to resolve while others are very easy. Soaking, strictly for purposes of crease removal, is standard practice for everything from 19th century issues through Topps issues from the 70s. Yes, this means T204s, Cracker Jacks and even other issues that do not have smooth surfaces are fair game. The exception would be Cabinets. Crease removal can raise a card’s grade by 3 to 5 grades. If done right the creases will not reappear. Nevertheless, I have seen plenty of hack jobs that left me wondering 1) how they got through grading and 2) at what point those creases will reappear—because they do.<br /><br />Some here have referred to a process called “pressing.” It is a method that involves soaking and stretching in order to trim a card’s outer edges. While this can be done on many cards, it is unusual for thinner cards, like T206s, T205s and Caramel issues. The cards just aren’t thick enough to press and stretch. Thicker issues (Goudeys, post-war Topps, N172, N162, N28 and N29s) can and often do undergo this process. Getting the extra length is the easy part. Mimicking the original cut is the more difficult aspect and the true test of a card doctor’s skill. That is what separates the doctors from the EMT’s. In many of the pre-war issues there is great variance in size so sometimes it is possible to take off a little without compromising the size requirement for grading. <br /><br />Removing stains is another prevalent practice in the hobby. Some stains require the use of chemicals while others can vanish in water. There are very few stains which cannot be removed. The major considerations are the stain’s location and whether or not text is affected. However, stain removal is costly! Unless the stains are ordinary like pencil marks, wax and gum, this arena is usually left to professional conservationists.<br /><br />For the obvious reasons I am choosing to post this anonymously. Hope that will not diminish the importance of what I have written. I have been associated/involved in this hobby for many years so this information comes with a great deal of experience and knowledge. Sorry to be the messenger of bad news but somebody had to tell you. <br /><br /><img src="http://img49.imageshack.us/img49/6199/ff87hc.jpg"> <br />

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Posted By: <b>Josh K.</b><p>My last post did not assume any ill motive on the part of the poster - nevertheless, I dont think the post was clear as to its point, obviously open to misinterpretation, and could have been better thought out. To some, the image alone is offensive enough.

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Posted By: <b>steve f</b><p> Rec'd a note that this post was mispercieved . <br /><br /> The reaction was the antithesis of the intent, by a couple of collectors. Edited and removed. <br /><br /> As a Navy vet, son of a wartime Marine, son-in-law of a D-Day vet, brother of a Green Beret Nam vet and rescue worker at the WTC I hope there is no doubting my loyalty/character. I apologize profusely to those hurt and hope the record is now straight. <br />

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Posted By: <b>Josh K.</b><p>Not a problem Steve, like I said just above, I really didnt think the post was intended to be offensive, just wasnt sure what the intent was. Thanks for the explanation. <br /><br />Now if we can have some comments regarding the anonymous post above we may get this thread to 200+ posts before too long.

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Posted By: <b>Charlie Barokas</b><p>Steve,<br /><br />Thank you. <br /><br />Charlie

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Posted By: <b>scott ingold</b><p>None taken Steve. <br />As Josh said. I want more on the above post.

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Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>I guess that is ONE benefit to slabbing:<br /><br />The buyer knows that the card has at least not been altered or cleaned SINCE the time it was slabbed.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Charlie Barokas</b><p>Trimming has gotten so good that in many cases every Grading company cannot detect it. It is a significant problem. The grading companies must find a way to stay ahead of the "trimmers" because newer technologies has made the practice easier and undectable. In my opinion, that is why pre-war cards graded 7 or less have been so on fire. <br /><br />Until "trimming" can be beaten back by the grading companies, notice I say beaten back not eliminated because I don't think it is reasonable to ever eliminate it, true rarities will trump condition rarities. Ty Cobb in a "2" in this enviornment is more valuable than Mickey Mantle in a "9". Because they are not making any more Ty Cobb's in "2's" but Mantle "9's" are being made daily.<br /><br />Until certain dealers and hobbyists are called out and forced to stop this practice the trend will be away from higher grade cards and into scarce low to mid-grade cards.<br /><br />Charlie

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Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>Assuming dealers are trimming, they aren't going to admit it, and other dealers and collectors who know apparently aren't going to "out" them, so I don't see how the scenario Charlie mentions happens.

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Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>Can't the graders just MEASURE the cards?<br /><br />Or is the trimming also being done in conjunction with this "soaking and stretching" we are hearing about?<br /><br /><br /><br />EDITED: I re-read the post and this answers my question:<br /><br />"Thicker issues (Goudeys, post-war Topps, N172, N162, N28 and N29s) can and often do undergo this process. Getting the extra length is the easy part."

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Posted By: <b>Charlie Barokas</b><p>How do you know who is trimming cards? Anyone who's submissions to grading companies have 80% "9's" 10% "9.5's/10's" and 5% no grade and 5% 7. Mint and Gem Mint cards used to be scarce, but now they are growing on trees. Did Mr. Mint (the Boards favorite guy) find a bunch of uncirculated cards recently because that's what a Mint or a Gem Mint card is" uncirculated. I have talked with 30 Year hobby veterans and they are still looking for one uncirculated hobby find. Its amazing how some dealers find them every couple of weeks. <br /><br />A card soaked out of an album can only become a "9" one way, soaking is not the problem. "Rototrim" is the problem, for those interested Google it. Instead of trying to find out who has a "Rototrim" find someone with nothing buy 8.5 or above inventory, that is updated weekly.<br /><br />Charlie

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Posted By: <b>Josh K.</b><p>Charlie, <br /><br />Just curious, how would one find out about a dealers submission ratios - or are you just saying that we need to make certain assumptions based on the inventory being carried?

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Posted By: <b>Charlie Barokas</b><p>Hal,<br /><br />Trimmers are looking for oversized cards or cards from years that size is all over the place, for example 1955 Bowman Baseball. <br /><br />Peter,<br /><br />I am not trying to call anyone out but rather add some information to the discussion. Personally, if a card is in a holder of one of the major companies and I think I can buy it and sell it for a profit in a short period of time, I am not very concerned.<br /><br />However, if I were a collector or someone who holds onto inventory for along time, I would also be very concerned. Because I think higher grades cards will be worth less as time goes on, unless something can be done.<br /><br />Charlie

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Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>This thread is getting very scary.<br /><br />No card is sacred.<br /><br />The thought of a "40-year-old virgin" card is rapidly disappearing.<br /><br /><img src="/images/sad.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Charlie Barokas</b><p>Josh,<br /><br />Just look at the inventory. I don't think anybody wants to reveal submision information.<br /><br />Charli

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Posted By: <b>Charlie Barokas</b><p>Hal,<br /><br />You are correct, there are those individuals out there that are making decisions now that could really hurt the value of the medium to long-term baseball card market.<br /><br />Charlie

Opinions on Soaking/Pressing
 

Posted By: <b>Josh K.</b><p>charlie, <br /><br />Would you say that midgrade cards are being docotored less often - the post above implied that it is commonplace regardless of the grade/condition of the card?

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Posted By: <b>Charlie Barokas</b><p>Having said all of this, I think the grading companies are aware of it and in there own ways are trying to fight back. But if you can trim a card in such a way that Mike Baker cannot detect it? Because Baker has the best eye and most experience in the business, not to take away from SGC or PSA but he has incredible knowledge about edges etc.<br /><br />Charlie

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Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>Charlie I understand why you would not want to name names. But until someone names names, or a doctor or a dealer confesses, I don't think any progress is going to be made.

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Posted By: <b>Josh K.</b><p>So, just what kind of Doctor is Dr. Duet anyway? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>David Vargha</b><p>Josh -- Take one of the cert #'s on any card and start running searches on cert #'s immediately before and after that. Doing that on PSA wil often give you some "interesting" results; especially when it is 9's and 10's punctuated by "evid. of trim".<br><br>DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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Posted By: <b>Josh K.</b><p>Thanks David - good advice. Fortunately, Im not buying any prewar 9s and 10s (or 7s or 8s for that matter).

Opinions on Soaking/Pressing
 

Posted By: <b>Charlie Barokas</b><p>Josh,<br /><br />I think that there is a clear distinction between trimming and soaking and or pressing wrinkles.<br /><br />In my opinion, adding or removing form a card is wrong and deemed out of bounds.<br /><br />When I was a kid, I put my cards in books to flatten them out or would like my figure to remove gum stain or flatten stray fibers to make the cards look better. <br /><br />Personally, if someone buys a card and the corner is flipped up and they flattten it down and sell it to me and I cannot tell that something was added or removed I have no problem.<br /><br />Charlie<br />

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Posted By: <b>Josh K.</b><p>I agree in some respects, though I dont want to be the owner of the psa 4 that had a wrinkle pressed out only to find out it has returned after the card was slabbed.

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Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>It must take a lot of guts for someone to "soak and press and trim" a 1952 Topps Mantle card in an effort to raise the grade.<br /><br />I guess the monetary gain from turning a 3 into a 6 is probably enough to make someone take the risk.<br /><br />Sad.

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Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>As many of you know, way back in 1996 in VBCC #7, "Daniel Paul" (not the name he "operates" under) stated flatly that when done properly certain types of restoration were virtually impossible to detect.

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Posted By: <b>identify7</b><p>I don't know, but I think that stretching photographs would require more than deionized water followed by pressing with books.<br /><br />I'd be real surprised if you can soak, press, stretch and then trim up a bunch of mint 9s from a pile vg Old Judge cards.

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Posted By: <b>scott ingold</b><p>I remember on the CU boards (David might as well ) That someone copied and pasted just what was mentioned. A sub # was checked as well as all of the one's before and after. What it showed was a bunch of 9's and 10's with just as many "eve" of trim sprinkled in. I forget who the submiter was but it was one of the larger ebay dealers. Don't the graders notice this ?

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Posted By: <b>scott ingold</b><p>Charlie,<br /><br />How would the rototrim even help ? I take it to mean that there are dealers out there using these ? Why ? Could you not use a steel ruler and xacto ?<br /><br />scott

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Posted By: <b>Hal Lewis</b><p>Is THAT why all of the old copies of VBCC Issue #7 are never available anywhere??<br /><br />Crap. Did he give details on HOW to do everything?<br /><br />Just his admission alone is scary... especially if 10 years of "stretching and trimming" has been going on since then!<br /><br /><img src="/images/sad.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Josh K.</b><p>scott,<br /><br />Im guessing its a much more precise cut based on what I could find out through google.

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Posted By: <b>scott ingold</b><p>Josh,<br /><br />I saw that stuff to. But cutting pictures is much different than 100 year old cardboard. I would think that it would still be the same as a razor. Except for a straighter cut.

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Posted By: <b>Charlie Barokas</b><p>Scott,<br /><br />There are many ways to accomplish the same thing. What you described is one of them. I know that there are people using Dental instruments to create rough cuts and I have heard that some of the orignal "Topps" blades are still around. <br /><br />These are questions that are best directed at the "Trimmers", I have never trimmed or will ever trim a card.<br /><br />Charlie

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Posted By: <b>Charlie Barokas</b><p>I mentioned Mike Baker being the Best. I also want to say that SGC and Dave Foreman, are doing a great Job of Holdering only the right cards.<br /><br />Charlie

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Posted By: <b>Josh K.</b><p>Charlie - now please tell me who the trimmers are so I can pose the question <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>Charlie your posts seem conflicting to me, on the one hand as I read you anyhow you are saying lots of trimmed cards are getting into high grade holders, on the other hand you are praising the grading services for doing a great job of catching trimmed cards. Help me understand what you are saying.

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Posted By: <b>Josh K.</b><p>I read it the following:<br /><br />Trimmed cards are getting by all of the graders but GAI and SGC are doing the best job detecting and rejecting trims.

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Posted By: <b>Lee Behrens</b><p>How about a clinic at this summers National on soaking and then we can have a debate. When that is done we all go to eat and laugh about it. I laugh just thinking about the soaking being done like it is a chemistry class at home. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />I personally have no problem with it as long as only water is used.<br /><br />Lee

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Posted By: <b>Charlie Barokas</b><p>Peter,<br /><br />To elucidate, I think the grading companies are not knowingly holdering trimmed cards, but rather the trimmers have gotten many steps ahead of the conventional halogen light and ruler. Until someone figures out a better method of ascertaining a trimmed edge from an original edge, all you can do is rest on the experience of the grader. And I think GAI and SGC are the most experienced. <br /><br />Charlie<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Richard</b><p>Since the topic has now gravitated towards trimming, and the various methods of how it is done, I think that we can start talking about the trimming of modern cards, and how difficult it is to detect factory trimming that happend last month at Topps or Upper Deck vs. trimming after the fact to enhance the card:<br /><br />1) The use of laser cutters in high end print shops to trim<br />2) Trimming as little as 1/64" to enhance edges so they are razor sharp<br />3) Sheet cut cards<br /><br />How in the world is a grading company going to tell the difference between a Topps blade and a Joe Schmoe blade on a 2005 Topps card? They can't. They measure the card, grade it and move on.<br /><br />Many people with high tech equipment are shaving modern cards and slabbing them in PSA 10 and BGS 9.5 and 10 holders. <br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>joe</b><p>I guess this is a record for a thread. It's been beat to death. Soakers say it's ok. Collectors with soaked cards in their collections can't tell anyway. So everybody should be happy. This same subject has crept into another thread too. About the Cobb and grading companies. How about started a thread about fixing cards so they can be graded, not soaking. Someone told me there is a couple of young guys on the West coast who have been doing this for years. The grading company knew who he was and he was not able to submit cards under his name. So, he has someone else send the cards in or take them to a show for grading. The last I heard they were buying properties in Florida as investment with their large profits on "altered" cards that were able to be graded. Anyone else heard this story.<br /><br />Joe

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Posted By: <b>Richard</b><p>Joe, are you talking about altering modern cards or prewar cards?

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Posted By: <b>Jim Crandell</b><p>One very well known national dealer who used to post here named names(I think on the CU boards) and I think regrets it. He has subsequently mentioned how it has hurt his business. As I recall, he named 5 well known dealers who are involved in card alteration.<br /><br />I tried to raise the issue on CU and LTS from the perspective of companies increasing their efforts to detect timming/pressing etc. but it was a message collectors there did not want to hear and I know PSA did not want to hear it and I was shouted down.<br /><br />Jim

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Posted By: <b>Jim Crandell</b><p>Another dealer who is very knowledgeable about what is being done is Michael Wentz--and he is not one of the people I am referring to in the above post.

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Posted By: <b>joe</b><p>Richard, was never told what kind of cards. Now that you post the question I would bet it was not on vintage cards that we talk about on this board. I forgot how much money was being spent on some of the modern cards. I just wondered if anyone else had heard anything about it.<br /><br />Joe