My apologies:
 

I said it before…but my apologies to Ted Z, and his family and friends. Every time I start going over the information we have on the Bond Bread cards, I think about Ted Z and how I might be throwing dirt on his legacy.

Like I said Ted Z had an agenda, “his way or the highway.” Thanks to Yoda, I realized it was not an agenda but a debate. Did he get something's wrong? Yes, we all do, but as Yoda said, “on those rare occasions when he was shown he might have erred, he was happy to add it to his broad knowledge base”.

I believe if Ted Z was here with us today he would be happy to add his broad knowledge to this debate and follow the information wherever it leads us. Thanks to all, Happy New Year : John.

John, tks for the clarification. My Rizutto has a cream white back and rounded corners, so I am assuming it went into loaves of Bond Bread. Regardless, I am happy to have both my 1947 Bond Bread rookies confirmed as inserts. Now that I know the facts, thanks to you, Butch and Ray, I am just going to enjoy the cards as part of my PC. John

I think we're getting a little circular and confusing here in regard to Exhibit Supply Company (ESCO) products, so let's just clarify:

1. ESCO made it own cards. See the Groucho original art and card in an earlier post. It did not contract for others' designs, like Aarco.

2. ESCO was not a commercial printing house. On occasion, it would specially print backs on its cards for commercial clients. Dad's Cookies, for example. The only known deviation from that is the Wrigley Field set of alltime greats made in the 1960s for sale at the ballpark. That was at a point when the company was circling the toilet and was desperate.

3. ESCO's main trade was selling vending machines and restocks for those machines. The cards had to fit the machines. It did not vary card sizes because [drumroll please] different sizes would foul the machine mechanisms. When ESCO acquired the card business of the International Mutoscope Reel Company (aka "Mutoscope") in the late 1940s, it reshot the Mutoscope designs to fit its machines. Here is a comparison:

https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...20v%20Muto.jpg

ESCo on the left, Mutoscope on the right.

There are some 1950s ESCO cards with Mutoscope PC backs:

https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...ope%20Back.jpg

My hunch is that these were made with old card stock that ESCO had from its Mutoscope acquisition and decided to use; waste not, want not.

4. There is no way that the "Bond Bread Exhibits" were made by or for ESCO machines. The stock and size are wrong. I do not think they are Mutoscope products either, because the size and stock are wrong for those machines. There are many arcade-style cards that ESCO and Mutoscope did not make. Whether they were vendable in ESCO or Mutoscope machines is an open question. Some examples:

https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...20Snookums.jpg
https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...ade%20card.jpg

E282 Oh Boy Gum, a Goudey point-of-sale handout:

https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...%20Dempsey.jpg

https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...l%20Lugosi.jpg

Coney Island Arcade, made to use in the arcade's many Mutoscope machines after IMRCo was kaput:

https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...e%20Gehrig.jpg

1962 Kennywood (Pittsburgh) Amusement Park:

https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...ds%20Paige.jpg

Pacific Ocean Park (pirated ESCO design):

https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...ark%20card.jpg

Anonymous 1920s design, poss. Philadelphia area:

https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...ze/Tendler.jpg
https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...endler%202.jpg

Exhibitman
 

Thank you- That was very informative and clarified what I was confused about. What size cards did they make for their vending machines? Very nice scans of the images. John.

Overview of squared corner cards we call “Bond Bread”.
 

As we now understand, identifying all cards that we as collectors call “Bond Bread” is not accurate. These cards are in the Standard Catalog of Vintage Baseball cards as W571. So what is a legitimate Bond Bread card?

For all intended purposes as Ted Z pointed out in his post, (1947 BOND BREAD and its "imposters"....show us your cards?) …only cards that were packaged into loaves of bread should get that distinction- 48 cards in a complete set with rounded corners.

One problem in the standard catalog is some cards that look similar to the Bond Bread 48 card set - were never packaged in loaves of Bond Bread. i.e. squared corner cards. These cards have been misidentified as "1947 Bond Bread" cards along with others.

Let’s put all that aside for now, and just focus on the square corner cards. One question keeps coming to mind! Can we know when the square corner cards were issued? We know the Bond Bread cards came out in 1947. There is this belief that cards similar to the Bond Bread were issued after 1947, (a set of 24 cards with square corners.)

While it is true the 24 card set was never packaged in Bond Bread and has been misidentified as "1947 Bond Bread". I still have a question: How was this set given an issued date sometime after 1947? Somehow this set of 24 cards has an issued date circa 1950s. What proof is there that all square corner cards were issued after 1947? On the contrary there is proof that some of these cards were issued circa 1940s.

While there were a lot of cards issued by Wildman Sons (W.S.), circa 1950s we call Trading cards. (Which I will be posting about in an upcoming post.) And yes, many of these cards fit the description of the “Square Corner” Bond Bread cards, but that does not mean they were issued in the 1950s.

Here is the kicker…the 24 card set and the 48 card set used the same images on the cards. And we have old-timers who have said they brought their cards that match the 24 card set with square corners right from arcades circa 1940. While it is true that many collectors speculate that they were dispensed in arcades, similar to Exhibit cards of the era all before 1947, has not changed the issue date of circa 1950s.

Knowing this information, many collectors will say the 24 card set was issued in the 1950s. The issued date of circa 1950s goes against first hand knowledge, eyewitness accounts. To top it all off, there are articles that say the 24 card set and many Trading cards were issued circa 1947.

Like the SABR's Baseball Cards Research Committee articles. “In 1947 another set is produced containing 24 of the baseball players found in the Homogenized Bread set, plus four boxers. The cards have square corners and are printed on thinner stock.”

https://sabrbaseballcards.blog/author/bouton56/page/9/

Many of these Trading cards- where Movie Stars, Western Stars, Baseball Players, Boxers, Football Players, Golfers) were issued before 1947 with square corners, before Wildman Sons (W.S.) issued their cards in the 1950s.

And there is no doubt that these Trading cards were never issued as Bond Bread cards, but that is what they are known by in collecting circles (“Bond Bread”) so for now let’s just call them that.

What I can say is the 24 card set was issued sometime between the 1940s and 1950s. I believe they were circa 1947. One problem is so many cards with square corners came out circa 1950s and fit in with many of the Bond Bread cards- I believe this is why people put an issue date of 1950 on the 24 card set.

As for the David Festberg find in the 1980s, square corners cards that match the 24 card set, it is now believed that are not reprints but are cards that actually were printed in 1947. Another reason I believe the 24 card set was printed and issued circa 1947.

This does not mean there are no fakes or reprints that were done at another time. In fact, I just picked up a Major League (MLB) original 1947 Homogenized Bond Bread Ralph Kiner Square Corner licensed reprint. I don’t know much about it, only that the eBay seller said it was a licensed reprint. Waiting for it to arrive, so I can have a good look. Does anyone know more about 1947 license reprints, what year were they reprinted etc?
John.

Why a 24 card set.
 

butchie t : I know you have asked some of the same questions about the Baseball Card Society letter,( BCS). The same letter you brought you cards from.

The letter says: "The 1947 Homogenized Bond set, which was printed for only one year, contained 48 cards in all (44 baseball players and 4 boxers. We purchased the best of the set--24 cards in all---from the dealers's widow."

Butch we know your cards have white backs, therefore I believe your cards to be from the original 1947 square card print. It also appears that the 48 card set from BCS is the same as the 48 Bond Bread set, round corner cards (die-cut cards). Both of these sets, square and round, were produced and issued in 1947. Now on top of that it is believed that the Festberg cards were also produced in 1947.

So many questions:

OK, BCS purchased the best of 24 cards from a 48 card set from a dealer's window. If only we could find out who that dealer was? How did it become that the 24 card set from BCS was the exact same cards as the 24 card set from the Festberg find?

Did BCS pick the best of 24 cards from a 48 card set... because they did not like the 24 card set (Festberg)cards? BCS had to be looking for cards to sell. Just maybe BCS saw the 24 card set, but because of the paper stock and the print quality pick 24 cards out of that 48 card set. So it is possible they did see the cards from the 24 card set from Festberg but liked the 24 cards from the 48 card set better. Could this be why the two sets have the same Images. That was a mouth full to say, I hope I made my point.

Why does the 24 set (Festberg) match the 24 cards from BCS? Why and when did the 24 card set (Festberg find) get issued? Wait, I should ask, when they were printed? Because they were never issued. Why were only 24 cards out of the 48 card set printed? If it was a 48 card set to begin with, meaning was the Festberg find a 48 card set? We know from the BCS letter - it was a 48 card set.

Could it have been a licensing issue, or because BCS said they pick the best out of the 48 card set to sell. Maybe the printer or the people responsible for the printing of the 24 card set (Festberg) believe they were the best of the 48 card set, because of what BCS had said. Did they believe it would be much easier to promote and sell a 24 card set.

Why even a 48 card set? A 48 card set was the standard number of a trading card set. This is most likely because of the printing process and the size of the press that was used to print trading cards. The size of the press determined how many cards would be laid-out and ganged up on a printing plate. Meaning 48 cards were printed on one sheet of paper. Thus, if you ran 5,000 sheets of paper through the printing press, you would have yielded 48 cards of 5,000 each, producing 240,000 total cards.

My assessment of why a 24 card issue: It could have been a licensing issue. But I believe it is because a 24 card set would be cheaper and easier to produce. Most likely they were run on a smaller printing press, one that would produce 24 cards on a sheet of paper. Therefore if the prees run was 5,000 sheets of paper, it would yield 5000 cards of 24, producing 120,000 cards total.

I do have some questions! If BCS picked the 24 best cards out of the 48 card set: How did they decide what was the best of the best of 48? Where are the other 24 cards with white backs? We only see the same old square cards whether they come from BCS or Festberg cards. Somebody had to collect the other 24 names in the 48 white backs square set. I have seen some of the cards out there but come few and far in between and come at a higher price. It may be because usually these cards are slabbed and graded by grading companies. John

Buying Bond Bread cards:
 

Going back to post 155 from this thread, I received the card from the seller's description: “ Major League (MLB) original 1947 Homogenized Bond Bread Ralph Kiner Square Corner licensed reprint.”

No licensed reprint…they do not exist, after some investigating the seller said he just posted what the person said about the card he brought it from. After careful review, the card fits the description of the Festberg find.

butchie t - you and I have talked about Alan Rosen. I received the card from the seller who said, “These cards are all original. They came directly from the Alan Rosen Warehouse Find. They ARE NOT the reprints that were made in the 1980's. Those have different colored backs”.

I believe you do not believe there was an Alan Rosen find of Bond Bread. I do not want to put words in your mouth, if you can, tell us about what you know About Alan Rosen and Bond Bread.


I have not found any proof of an Alan Rosen find that included any Bond Bread cards. The card I received from the seller - that was to come from the Alan Rosen find with different color backs…wait for it, the card fits the Festberg find.

Understand that I have found no proof of a Rosen Bond Bread find or reprints made in the 1980s, or any other time for that matter.
If anyone knows about or heard about an Alan Rosen find of Bond Bread, or reprints, please post your story.

I brought the two cards above hoping to find out what I believe the cards would tell me what they were. I believed that the cards would be from the Festberg find. I was right, sometimes you just have to have the cards in your hands. When I put these cards away I will have a great story to tell about them. It is not a complete waste if you buy cards like these, if you like to tell the story behind how you acquired the cards and why. I will sometimes buy cards that I know the story behind them is wrong. Does anybody else do this?

I also picked up two fakes, to show what to look for in copy fakes. Notice there is no dot pattern, one you get from half-tone printing. These are not reprints from a previous printed card, but copies. See examples. They are on the wrong paper, and were made to look old and distressed. Believe me you can tell the paper stock is wrong just by touching it. We all heard stories of how fake cards were soaked in coffee to make them look old, these cards look like there certainly were. Again when I put these cards away, I will have a great story to tell about them.

Item description from the seller: “1947/49 Bond Bread Bob Elliott, Incredible 77 year old card of the one & only Bob Elliott. ULTRA RARE!!! PSA has stopped grading these.”

Item description from the seller: 1947/49 Bond Bread Ken Keltner Indians. Incredible 77 year old card of the one & only Ken Keltner. ULTRA RARE!!! PSA has stopped grading these.

The Seller said, “Collectors should note that while many cards in this set have rounded corners or a “stop sign shaped cut”, a second version of these cards exist with solely square corners, which is the one pictured. The square corner cards are equally authentic. Cards for the baseball players and the boxers can be found with both variations. See pics for reference.”

“I am not a professional grader or appraiser. I CANNOT GUARANTEE AUTHENTICITY. This is data I have acquired from research and talking to people in the Vintage space I trust.”

I cannot say if the seller understood the cards were fake, but look out for how cards are described. Saying 1949 is a dead giveaway, looking old is also something to watch for.

I will say the seller did a very good job on packing and shipping the card. He took great care, therefore I don't believe he is selling fakes on purpose. John

John,

My comment regarding Al Rosen is based on the fact that if Al Rosen would have found anything that had to deal with a find that had the potential for them being related to Homogenized Bond Bread cards, he would have basically shouted it from the rooftops....and he would have run that find to ground over the course of the months following that find (or purchase).

So the dearth of any information regarding Al Rosen and a cache of 'Bond Bread' cards leads me to my belief that Al and these cards have no association with each other.

I will be more than happy to retract my position on this if any proof were to be presented......I just do not believe that any association will ever come to light.

Regards.

Butch

Thank you Butch
 

Very well said, I agree 100%. John

A lot of wild accusations.
 

In Post 156- I made a lot of wild accusations, just theory mine you. I was hoping to get some reaction from that post. I wanted to start up a conversation, because not as many people are interacting with this post as I believe they would.

There has to be more people like Ted Z, who has collected the 48 card set, the set that was inserted into loaves of Bond Bread. If so please post pictures, I have never seen all the images on the cards, I sure would like to. There has to people who collected the 24 card set before the Festberg find. People with first hand knowledge.

Haven said that - the wild accusation I thought would get the most attention was…”Could it have been a licensing issue, or because BCS said they pick the best out of the 48 card set to sell. Maybe the printer or the people responsible for the printing of the 24 card set (Festberg) believe they were the best of the 48 card set, because of what BCS had said. Did they believe it would be much easier to promote and sell a 24 card set?”

Stop and think about it, the BCS set was not for sale until the 1990s, although the set was produced in 1947. There is no way the printer or people who had the cards produced, would have known that BCS picked the best 24 cards out of a 48 card set. Understand I have found no connection between the 24 card set issued in 1947 or the Festberg find, to the BCS issues.

The theory that the people responsible for the printing of the 24 card set believed that it would be easier and cheaper to sell a 24 card set over a 48 card is believable. That is one theory we can understand as to why a 24 card set was produced in the first place. John

Retraction
 

As many of you know this post is a work in progress, it is a living breathing post the final assessment has not been made. Understand as new information comes in, theories and thoughts in this post can change.

New information has come to my attention to where I have to make a retraction: I posted to Pat R in post 149 of this thread; the cards in question would be placed in the "Festberg" find because of the backs, based on the information we had at the time.

Quote: “Pat: What we now know teaches that the images in post #53 of the old thread (cards of your friend) are from the Festburg cards discovered in NJ 1980s- Ivory / Beige paper stock, squared corners, 2 ¼ x 3 ½, .1mm thick, weight 1 gram. It could be the same set… from the letter from The Sporting News from the 1980s…from Stanley Apfelbaum see post 140 in this thread.”

With the help of butchie t we were able to determine we cannot place the cards from post #53 from Pat R in the old post from Ted Z, in the category of the "Festberg" find.

What we had discover - the backs of the cards from: the Festberg find, butchie t cards from, the Baseball card society letter, cards I bought that were believed to be from the Festberg find, cards I bought from a collector who collected the cards circa 1940s first hand…all have the same backs.

Therefore what we can say, is the cards from Pat R: are circa 1940s and could come from any of the above sets. As to date, the above cards should be categorized square trading cards under the umbrella of “Bond Bread” cards, not inserted into loaves of bread, circa 1940s.

Images below 1st card from a collector who collected circa 1940s, 2nd card believed form Festberg find, 3rd from scan from BCS from butchie t, 4th from what is believed from the 24 cards set issued circa 1940s. - 1950s.
John.

butchie t- Sorry I did not mean to speak for you. If you can explain what you have discovered about the cards mentioned above. Do you agree with the assessment I made on them? Thanks John.

John,

Don’t worry about me and our conversations. Feel free to post anything you deduce from them. And post any pictures as well.

I’ll cobble together my findings over the next couple of days. Other ‘irons’ in the fire at the moment.

Cheers,

Butch.

Thanks to butchie_t
 

Butch: Was kind enough to send images of his cards. First card believed from the Festberg find, middle card Bond Bread card, third card from Baseball Card Society. Notice- Festberg find and the BCS have the same ivory backs while the Bond Bread card has a cream white back. John

David Festberg
 

I was doing a Google search on David Festberg and this generated AI information popped up. I never heard that he reportedly found a significant collection of rare baseball cards. Has anyone else?

AI Overview: The "Festberg Find" refers to a significant collection of rare baseball cards discovered by David Festberg, a prominent early baseball card dealer, which included a particularly valuable Honus Wagner T206 card considered one of the "Holy Grails" of sports memorabilia; this find is notable for its historical significance and the high auction prices the cards commanded when sold later on.

Key points about the Festberg Find: Discovery:

David Festberg, who ran one of the first dedicated baseball card stores in Brooklyn, reportedly found the collection, including the Wagner card, in an old paper bag while purchasing a batch of cards from another dealer.
Significance of the Wagner card:
The Honus Wagner T206 card is considered one of the most valuable baseball cards due to its scarcity, with only a few known examples remaining.

Impact on the market:
The Festberg Find's sale at auction significantly increased the market value of the Wagner card, setting a new benchmark for prices achieved by rare baseball cards.

Legacy:

The story of the Festberg Find is often cited as a prime example of the thrill and potential for high rewards within the world of antique card collecting.
Rare Ty Cobb Baseball Cards Found In Old Paper Bag Help Smash Honus Wagner Auction Record May 4, 2016. Thanks John

David Festberg
 

Read whole article:

https://collectrea.com/archives/2016...r-honus-wagner



David Festberg, a very noted (and colorful!) collector and dealer from Brooklyn, New York, who was extremely active in the hobby for several decades beginning in the 1970s. Festberg was one of the very first dealers to regularly run auctions in Sports Collector's Digest, and in February 1993, he announced in a full-page advertisement his intention to offer up for auction his personal example of the legendary Wagner card. The card, according to Festberg's ad, was purchased at the Willow Grove, Pennsylvania, show in 1986 for full asking price from a dealer on the show floor who was representing a "well known collector." Festberg kept the card in his personal collection until making the decision to offer a T206 Honus Wagner for auction in the SCD. Thanks John.

Grading
 

Has anyone tried to grade any of the Festburg cards? The ones with square corners and cream colored backs. It looks like PSA wont grade them at all, and SGC grades the rounded corners and exhibits.
If you have tried grading them, what did SGC say?

Mikehallett22: Great question. But first let me say- The Festburg cards are on ivory/beige paper stock. The round corner Bond Bread cards, the ones inserted into loaves of Bond Bread are cream in color. My research has shown that the square corner cards circa 1947-are on ivory/beige paper stock, that's including the Festburg cards.

While grading companies don’t grade square cards anymore, many reasons are given as to why. The problem is they are stuck in the past. They are stuck in their old ways, same old same old ways of looking at cards and not taking any new information into account. I believe they do not know what to look for. They can grade the appearance and quality of the card, but will not say anything about the origins of the cards. This is because of past guarding issues. In the past they have given circa dates from 1947-1950, have called them Bond Bread cards to an unknown issues.

I have seen cards that were graded and certified, that are obvious fakes by some of the top grading companies. I believe this is the reason, they are not up to date on what to look for, therefore they just will not grade square corner cards. Maybe just maybe- they were called out on the obvious fakes that they graded over the early years and refuse to grade cards they are not sure about.

Well I say do you homework. I do not use grading companies, for one I hate the slabs they come in: But if you are in it for the money and not the fun…then you want your cards to be graded. And we as collectors want these companies to grade the square corner cards again, this can be done, we just need to set up guidelines. Call them-“Previously called Bond Bread, square corner cards, circa 1940s-1949 and grade appearance and quality of the card.

What we do know about the Bond Bread cards and the look alike squared cornered cards is that both were issued circa 1947, that is the general consensus now: Of course there are fake cards that were reprinted or copied circa 1950 to date. But that is the caveat of those cards, we can tell them apart from the real issues cards in 1947.

I don't understand why most vintage card collectors and Grading Companies remain highly skeptical towards these square corner cards, deeming them little more than fakes. Again yes there are fakes, but to call all square corner cards fakes or some kind of reprint, is wrong.

The problem is that many of these Grading companies claim the square cards are fakes or reprints. Others don't grade Bond Bread at all, because someone could take a square-corned (reprint) and round the corners and try to pass it off as an original.

That last part is total BS, if they did their homework, they would know that the square corner cards are on different paper stock then the round corner cards. If you take a square card and cut the corners…all you have is a square card with rounded corners. No way, that card would not pass off for a Bond Bread card if the card grader did his homework. Now in the past someone might fall for such a thing. But there is no way a trained card grader should be taken in; unless they grade the same old same old way. The information is out there to take in and grade square cornered cards in this age. Why not do so?

Below I show two cards, it’s hard to really see the color difference when posting on a computer screen that's because you do not see the true color of the cards. The first card is a true Bond Bread card, the second is a square corner card: I rounded the corners to look like a Bond Bread card. The backs show the one I rounded is a fake.

The first: A true Bond Bread card, on cream white paper stock. Second card:Fake, squared card, I cornered. On ivory/ beige paper stock. Third card: Bond Bread on left, fake on the right: There is no way a fake square card made to look like a round corner card will pass off as a true Bond Bread card. Fourth card: Bond Bread on bottom. Fake card on top. As you can see, taking a square corner card and rounding the corners will not pass as a Bond Bread card- if you know what to look for. It is best to have a card you know is Bond Bread and use that card to compare other cards too. John

Fake is certainly an interesting tag line here.

I will agree that fake can be used in conversation about the square cards being 'fake' Bond Bread Cards.

That is where the 'fake' monicker stops for me.

Now, lets move on to what is probably more closer to fact then fake. The square cards are more than likely circa late 40's.

They were more than likely printed from proofs? that were also used for the Bond Bread Cards. The similarities are just too strong to ignore out of hand.

Who printed them? Pretty damned good chance it was Aarco that printed them.

And I believe it fair to say they ended up in the Sports Star Subjects Sets. This for me, is the missing link.

Michael Fried had a great deal of data and conversations between net54 posters here and then went dark. I have reached out to him regarding this thread and to weigh back into it. But no reply from him.

Ted Z. was very adamant in their conversations but I am now of the opinion that Ted did not have all the facts either. That is fine, he remembered the cards as he did and was not inclined to engage in a different aspect of the origins of these cards.

So, here we are today. I believe John has put in a great deal of legwork to at least readdress the conversation as to where these cards belong in the hobby.

I believe they do belong in the hobby and not as fakes. Even some of the larger catalogs refer to the 'square cornered' cards. So it is not like they just showed up one day in the late 80's from out of the blue.

They were 'there' long before that and were rediscovered by someone.


I know there are many here that have information regarding this topic and I beg of you to weigh in with your thoughts. Wouldn't it be great to add another group of cards to the larger cataloging of cards.

These cards need a cataloged home. And not as a fake set of cards either.


Butch Turner

Wise words
 

Butch, thank you, but I believe everyone here has put in a lot work, and if we can get people to weigh in and comment it would be of great help, no matter how big or small the subject might be. Any contribution is with looking over, ask questions and make statements, someone will be able to give an answer. John

Follow up post 168
 

First card, the only squared corner-graded card I have, printed on Ivory/Beige paper stock.

Second set of cards is Bond Bread squared, on ivory/beige paper stock and a Collectors & Traders Screen Star Subjects- bright white paper stock.

The third set is Wildman & Son "Screen Star Subjects on ivory/beige paper stock and Collectors & Traders Screen Star Subjects, bright white paper stock, die-cut (rounded corners).

Match those cards against the ones posted in above thread 168. Bond Bread is on cream white paper stock and the fake card I made paper stock matches the Collectors & Traders Screen Star Subject cards and The Wildman & Son Screen Star Subjects are on Ivory/Beige paper stock.

John

Need help:
 

Could use some help with this one, how about some homework? List the original 48 card Bond Bread set and the career dates of each sports star, When career began and ending, and what years they played for each team. Does anyone know if we have this information on the Collectors & Traders Sports Star Subjects. If so, can you make a list? John

Sticking with the tagline fake:
 

Relevant to our conversation here, there is another post Ted Z posted in.
https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...Bread+packages Ted Z post# 2-Fresh out of the Bond Bread packages, the corners of these cards were always Rounded:

Quote Ted Z: “A 2nd printing of the original 48 cards of the Bond Bread issues 1947 were available in stores in 1949 - 1950. These Square cards were sold over-the-counter in packages of 12 cards each.”

“......Date unknown, 24 of these cards were re-printed (circa 1980, a warehouse find of these cards occurred). These re-printed cards were produced with inferior cardboard stock and are clearly distinguishable from the above two original issues by their "cream-colored" backs.”

The evidence suggests something totally different. The cards sold over the counter in boxes of 12 were being sold circa 1940s-1950s, and they had die-cut corners on bright paper stock. Sold as Collectors & Traders Sports Star Subjects among others names. There were 4 boxes of 12 cards each, making a 48 card set. Printed and issued by Aarco Playing Card Company. As you know by now Bond Bread did not print their own set of cards, they use Aarco Playing Card company for that. What Aarco did was use some of the exact same images from the 48 card set of Sports Star Subjects, on the Bond Bread cards. They added new images in 1947, (new sports stars), everything stayed the same, except the paper stock; Aarco printed the Bond Bread cards on cream white paper stock, maybe at the request of Bond Bread, but my guess is it was done so you could tell the sets apart.

Understand there were not square cards in the boxes from Collectors & Traders Sports Star Subjects, they were all die-cut. Stay with me, the exact same set as Bond Bread cards were printed with square corners in 1947: The best evidence suggests by Aarco Playing Card Company. You see they had the rights, license to print the images on the cards. The theory is at the same time Bond Bread approached Aarco to print trading cards; other companies did the same. Aarco printed and produced the square corner cards for handouts / gave away as a promotional item.

What took place was two versions of the exact same set were printed and issued in 1947, one set for bond Bread with die-cut corners, the other set square corner cards were for handouts, by anyone who wanted to promote their business by giving away trading cards. This theory comes from people who had first hand knowledge, people who I talked to personally.

Myth, there is no evidence suggesting a reprint circa 1980s, warehouse find. In fact there is no evidence of any reprint of the Aarco cards we call Bond Bread. The evidence says the warehouse find was printed circa 1947 (as handouts). It is believed they were stored away, and Aarco would sell set of cards to the companies who would purchase handouts from their stock of cards, somehow this stock of cards found there way to a warehouse in New Jersey only to be discovered in 1980 by David Festherg: If that is were he did discover the cards, many questions about how and when David Festherg discovered the cards.

The two original issue sets Ted Z was talking about (1947 and 1949) one 1947 issues had round corners and 1949 issues had squared corners; according to Ted Z, and both were printed on cream paper stock. NO! Totally wrong, only the Bond Bread cards were, the Sports Star Subjects cards were printed on bright white paper stock with round corners. On top of that…only Bond Bread was printed in 1947, as for the Sports Stars card… circa 1940-1950s. Now for the 1980 warehouse find (Festberg) was on different paper stock. In fact all square cards like the Festberg cards were all printed on the same paper stock Ivory/beige, circa 1947. John.

Images below First sets of cards - Bond Bread on top, Sports Star Subjects on bottom. Backs of cards: Left side Bond Bread top, bottom left Sports Star Subjects. Sports Star Subjects top right bottom right Bond Bread. Understand I lasted the backs of the cards in a different order then the front.

This falls into a certain line of thought for me that I have had for a while now.

In the archived thread, someone posted ads in various papers from Aarco that requested card stock from anyone that had it. Now, why would they ask for card stock?

Print cards? Print something......cards?????

This would certainly explain the back color and the stock differences.

B.T.

Please, again I am asking as well here, others that have not yet and that would be kind enough to weigh in here......It certainly would be appreciated.

It is a fair assessment so far that these cards should be catalogued and recognized among collectors and the TPGs. (Again, I ain't sending mine to any of the TPGs, regardless of how this plays out.)

These cards are not orphans, maybe stepchildren, but not orphans.

B.T.

re-post images:
 

First set: Bond Bread on top, Collectors & Traders Sports Star Subjects on bottom. Second set: The backs of the cards, Bond Bread on top- notice on cream white paper stock. Collectors & Traders Sports Star Subjects on bottom- notice the bright white paper stock. Third set: The backs, left top Bond Bread, bottom left Collectors & Traders Sports Star Subjects. Right top Bond Bread, bottom right Collectors & Traders Sports Star Subjects. See the difference between the two paper stocks they are printed on.

Round vs squared corner cards:
 

In 1947 the cards we call Bond Bread filled the baseball card void created by WWII. Many of the images on the cards were from before 1947, some of the images are from circa 1930-1946. This is one of many reasons why I changed my mind on how the squared corner cards were issued and in what year. Many of us believed that the square corner cards were issued in 1949, because of the information we had at the time. I did believe at one time that the squared corner cards were issued circa 1949 and were sold in boxes, but the facts have proven this wrong. Mostly I believed this because of what I read in the Ted Z thread posted in Net54Baseball.com.

Now is the time for the old-timers to way in or the people who have talked to them and give the information they may have. Please tell us what you know. I have said repeatedly now that new information has come to the front, that I have found no tangible evidence that the square cornered cards we call Bond Bread were issued in 1949. No tangible evidence the square cards were ever issued in boxes, like the Collectors & Traders Sports Star Subjects. (The cards in these boxes all had round corners).

What I do have is notes…notes where people mentioned that the squared issued cards could have been issued in boxes like the Collectors & Traders, but not one person that I have spoken to has said they collected the squared corner cards in boxes. Only that they remember seeing them around the same time as seeing the Collectors & Traders cards, therefore they assumed the cards came in boxes too.

The thing here is… there is a high probability and possibility that people started seeing the squared corner cards before seeing the round Bond Bread cards that were packaged or inserted into loaves of Bond Bread in 1947. Now this does go against the grain of what people like Ted Z believed. But it is a more logical order of how and when the squared corner cards were issued. It does appear that Ted Z wanted the round cards to be the first issues, but if you go back and read what was said you will find no empirical or tangible evidence for this theory, other than that is what people wanted the narrative to be. But there are people who have said they saw the squared corner cards circa 1947.

For the sake of confusion, let's call the 1947 round and square cornered card the “Main Bond Bread Set”. Some of the other sets associated with Bond Bread were printed and issued before 1947. Yes, there were other sets associated with Bond Bread that were issued circa 1949-1950, but none of them were from the main 1947 sets. I understand that it would be possible to take the 1947 main Bond Bread sets and reissue them circa 1949-1950s or later, but there is no proof that there was ever a reissue of 1947 main Bond Bread cards: in any form or time. On the other hand, we have first hand knowledge for the issuing of the main Bond Bread cards circa 1947, information gathered through direct collecting of the cards.

What we do know is that the Bond Bread cards inserted into loaves of bread were more an East coast regional issue of cards. Whereas the squared corner cards we call Bond Bread were more a nation issue. Think about them as you would S&H Green Stamps. For those of you who don’t know-S&H Green Stamps were a loyalty rewards program that allowed customers to earn stamps at participating retailers. The stamps could be collected in booklets and redeemed for products from the S&H catalog. This program became popular nationwide.The squared corner cards were kind of like that, retailers would give them out, they were distributed as part of a rewards program to customers.

Customers would receive the cards at the checkout counter of supermarkets, department stores and gasoline stations among other retailers. All information points to Aarco Playing Card company, as the company that offered the cards to retailers. This is why we can not find a single issuer of cards but many different issuers of the cards. This is why people say they receive their cards from many different retailers. Retailers had a choice of subjects to choose from, Sports Stars, Cowboys, Hollywood Screen Stars, cards were all offered for sale by Aarco Playing company as a loyalty rewards program for retailers: and the evidence is that the loyalty rewards program cards were all printed with square corners. Yes, other cards were offered for sale in boxes or sheets but they had round corners or were perforated cards. Hence the square corner and round corner cards. John

Keith H. Thompson post #27
 

Keith, your post deserves an update. I stand by the hot of the printing press response. But you made a very good point, which had me looking into, can we tell the difference between the squared cut cards. Meaning the cards we call Bond Bread and the Festberg cards. With new information I have to say no. I went by the information provided by the Ted Z post, but as I continue to research and investigate the Bond Bread card set, I have found that not everything in that post can be taken as gospel. Thanks to you we can have this conversation. John

Damn good write up John. From the information you have gathered and continue to gather, you are certainly building the gap for these cards. And frankly, this has been the best explanation to date.

Others may have a difference of opinion and I encourage them to weigh in here. But, I truly believe you are onto the fact that Aarco printed them and distributed them to any and all that bought them. It makes the best sense so far.

Regards,

Butch Turner

The story of - a David Festberg may be fake.
 

The story of - a David Festberg warehouse find of Bond Bread cards in the 1980 may be a made up story:

David Festberg, a very noted (and colorful!) collector and dealer of Baseball cards from Brooklyn, New York, who was extremely active in the hobby for several decades. In the 1980 he muddy the waters around the Bond Bread cards.

But to tell you the truth there is not much known about David Festberg. There is as much controversy around him as the Bond Bread cards.

I did find this article: UPI Archives March 5, 1981-By ED LION. This article talked about David Festberg.
“And By The Way ...High-stakes baseball card dealing: 'Like the stockmarket”

https://www.upi.com/Archives/1981/03...7114352616400/

The article starts out, “Thousands of baseball card collectors of all ages, from as far away as California and Canada, spent a recent weekend feverishly trading cards at the Creation Baseball Convention.”

It then must have interviewed David Festberg, It says that David Festberg was 29, a Brooklyn postman and one of the thousands of avid card trader at the convention.

“I collect them for fun, but for many it's a business with big bucks,” said David Festberg, 29, a Brooklyn postman and one of the thousands of avid card trader at the convention. Festberg, who in his free time runs 'The Baseball Hobby Shop,' a store featuring baseball cards and other such memorabilia. Festberg is only one of an estimated 250,000 avid baseball card collectors in the nation.

Many people said he was a character and hard to deal with. But he did put his mark on the Bond Bread cards. And maybe not in a good way.

The threads below are before the Net54 baseball.com: forum we have now. This is two years before Ted Z posted in Net54baseball.com in 2009, his now famous thread: 1947 BOND BREAD and its "imposters"....show us your cards ?

Oct 30, 2007#31- Tapatalk Net54VintageBaseballCardForum. Ted Z.

“One of the earliest available Post-WWII baseball card sets is the 1947 Homogenized Bond Bread issue. The 48 black and white cards in this set were found inserted in loaves of Bond Bread. And, in order to
package these cards inside the bread loaves, their four corners were die-cut beveled (or ROUNDED). This set includes major rookie (or 1st) cards of Yogi Berra, Gil Hodges, Ralph Kiner, Stan Musial, Jackie
Robinson and Bobby Thomson. Major Stars include Joe DiMaggio, Bob Feller, and Ted Williams. Since 33 players (of the 44 BB cards) in this set are from NYC and Boston teams, this set is thought of as
a regional issue; however, Bond Bread was marketed nationwide and these cards were available as far west as St Louis.
A controversy has existed in the hobby regarding the very available SQUARE corner versions of these original cards. My findings are....The ROUNDED cards are the real originals printed and issued in 1947....and they are tough to find. The SQUARE cards fall into two categories...... (1) A second printing of only 24 of these BB cards was done when the manufacturer issued a Movie Star set sometime in the 1950's.
(2) These same 24 BB players were again REPRINTED on inferior cardboard stock (date unknown, but before their big FIND in the early 1980's). In any event, the SQUARE cards are not to be regarded as the original 1947 issue. However, Grading Cos. are grading them and erroneously labeling them as "1947 Homogenized Bond Bread".

Buyers beware....these SQUARE cards are not the real "rookies".
TED Z”

From Tapatalk - Net54VintageBaseballCardForum- Mar 23, 2009#8:

“At some point a quarter-century or more ago Festberg either acquired or decided to sell something he was holding onto for a long time: a set of black-and-white Homogenized Bread cards that featured Brooklyn Dodgers for the most part, as I recall. He sold either the whole set (24 cards or something) or the Jackie Robinson individually, as I recall. Festberg was a major player in the early days of the modern collecting (post-Topps monopoly) era, but when I hear David Festberg, I think” "Homogenized Bread."

Did you notice no mention of a warehouse find of cards. What does it say: “either acquired or decided to sell something he was holding onto for a long time: a set of black-and-white Homogenized Bread cards.”

Then there is this, posted From Tapatalk - Net54VintageBaseballCardForum Oct 30, 2007#33- by Ted Z.
“I asked David this back in the early 1980's (when he was involved with the warehouse find of these cards); but, I don't think he had a clue. The last time I saw David was several years ago at the Ft Washington Show. Does any one know where he is, lately?” TED Z

I wonder what the heck Ted Z was talking about when he said, “I don't think he had a clue.” It sounds like Ted Z was saying David Festberg did not know anything about a warehouse find. What did Ted Z know about the Festberg cards that he never posted in his now famous thread.
There is this theory that David Festberg never found a warehouse find of Bond Bread cards, it was just his stash of cards he had acquired in some unscrupulous manner. The warehouse find story was made up to cover up the truth. The story goes like this: in the 1980, David Festherg discovered Bond Bread cards in a warehouse in New Jersey. But there are now many questions about how and when David Festherg discovered the cards, if he did discover the cards at all.

There is no evidence of a warehouse find, but talk. Many people now believe that story is a myth to cover up where David Festherg did get the cards. We are to believe that the cards were put up in a New Jersey warehouse until David found them. We are to believe that the square Bond Breads cards were from the handouts Aarco printed. Do you believe that Aarco would pick a warehouse in New Jersey to hold the cards when they were in Chicago. What sense would it make for Aarco to hold their stock of cards in New Jersey and sell them to retailers out of that location.

Think about this: It is believed they were stored away, and Aarco would sell sets of cards to the companies who would purchase handouts from their stock of cards, all that stopped circa 1960s. Then somehow this stock of cards found there way to a warehouse in New Jersey only to be discovered in 1980 by David Festherg:

None of this passes the smell test: What does the above article say? Net54 baseball.com: From Tapatalk - Net54VintageBaseballCardForum- Mar 23, 2009#8: “At some point a quarter-century or more ago Festberg either acquired or decided to sell something he was holding onto for a long time: a set of black-and-white Homogenized Bread cards.

There was no talk about a warehouse find in 1984. In fact by Ted Z there was talk about a warehouse find in 2007. So when did the warehouse find become talk…It appears around 2007, the time of Ted Z post:

What does this mean for collectors, that the waters are muddied around David Festberg. The muddied waters suggest all kinds of theories. None more annoying than a 1947 or later printing of the squared corner cards.
But we have proof that both the squared corners Bond Bread cards and The David Festberg cards were printed in 1947. As for the rest we will just have to wait and see if any new information comes forward. What story do you believe? The warehouse find, or, that he acquired or decided to sell something he was holding onto…viva acquired in some unscrupulous manner.

But wait… you know who else was selling square corner cards around the same time as David Festherg? The Baseball card society and thanks to butchie_t we know what they were offering. Butch was kind enough to provide scans of his cards and the letters he received from BCS. There might be a clue as to where and how David Festherg was selling his cards. My theory is he did not find them in a warehouse or acquired them in an unscrupulous manner, he purchased them from a widow's dealer who had a big collection- no colossal collection of square corner cards we call Bond Bread. More to come, John.

Sgc
 

Is it true that SGC is grading square Bond Bread cards again? John

But wait… you know who else was selling square corner cards around the same time as D
 

But wait… you know who else was selling square corner cards around the same time as David Festberg? The Baseball card society (BCS) and thanks to butchie_t from net54baseball.com we know what they were offering. Butch was kind enough to provide scans of his cards and the letters he received from BCS. There might be a clue as to where and how David Festberg was selling his cards. My theory is he did not find them in a warehouse or acquired them in an unscrupulous manner, he purchased them from a widow's dealer who had a big collection- no colossal collection of square corner cards we call Bond Bread.

I believe there is a tie in between the Festberg find and the BCS cards. I kind of let the cat out of the bag…”widow’s dealer”. Let’s read from some of the letters from BCS that Butch provided: It says that BSC was offered a limited number of the very famous 1947 Homogenized Bond baseball card set. It describes the Bond Bread set, and then it says, all the baseball cards that weren’t put in bread packages were stored in a dusty warehouse, and quite literally, forgotten about when they went out of business. Many years later a famous collector discovered the cards in a warehouse and snapped up all the cards, how many it does not say, maybe 70,000 cards. but properly less.

This is just a guess, there is no real proof of how many cards there were. I have based this on press production and the paper shortage at the time and the population of baseball cards printed circa 1947. Because of the paper shortage at that time, Aarco would not take a chance on a large production of cards (population) of printed cards. For those of you who did not know - the total population of a set of baseball cards…is the total number of cards that were printed. For example the total population of 1947 Bond Bread Jackie Robinson baseball cards was 328,592. Today the number of baseball cards produced each year (population) is about 1 to 2 million.

Let’s say they wanted to print 10,000 sets of 48 cards. It would take 10,000 sheets of paper to print 48 cards to a set for a total of 480,000 cards total. I believe it would have been less than that, say 5,000 cards set of 48 making 240,000 cards. That would take 5,000 sheets of paper. Few baseball cards were produced in the mid-1940s -1950s due to paper shortages during World War II. 240,000 cards would have been alot of cards. Production resumed in the United States in 1948, with the Bowman Gum and Leaf Candy Company releasing cards.

Now pay attention to what the BCS letter says: Ironically- he died (the dealer) a few months ago and his widow offered us (BCS) the card sets that remained. This was circa 1980s. What does it say, “offered BCS the cards that remained.

Sounds like a familiar story, warehouse find, but it ends there. Notice it says the find was by a famous collector- who snapped up all the cards. Sounds like he purchased the cards circa 1950s-1960s. The collector did not just find them sitting around, he discovered Aarco had the cards in a warehouse and offered to buy them. More or less he purchased them from Aarco and when he died circa 1980s his widow put them up for sale. Who was there to snapped up the cards, David Festberg and BCS.

It is believed that Festberg had about 20,000 cards, no clue as to how many BCS had, but I would believe no more than 5,000 - 20,000. Ok let's say David Festberg did buy his cards from this widow, notice it says BCS brough the cards that were left.

I think the story behind a David Festberg warehouse find comes from this story. Something else to look at is the BCS letter says-the 1947 Bond Bread set was printed for only one year, contained 48 cards in all. And that they purchased the best of the set- 24 cards in all from the dealer’s widow. The story of the Festberg cards having 24 cards to its set -come from this story as well. I believe that a famous collector brought all the Aarco cards with square corners and when he died his widow sold most of the cards to David Festberg and BCS brought the remaining cards.

Therefore the BCS and Festberg cards are the exact same cards as the 48 card set printed at the same time. This explains why they are both on the exact same paper stock. Some believe that the BCS images of 24 cards are the same on the Festberg, but we do not have a true list of names for the Festberg cards, they could easily be any of the 48 card set. We do not know how many of the 48 cards Festberg had in its set. It could have 24 ,48 or any number in the set.

We need someone who knows, someone who purchased a whole set from David Festburg to speak up. If he did sell a whole set or just individual cards. John

When the squared corner cards were issued.
 

Understand there is a more logical order of how and when the squared corner cards were issued. It does appear that Ted Z and others wanted the round cards to be the first issue, because they did bend the truth to fit their agenda. This investigation has shown that there is no empirical or tangible evidence for this theory, other than that is what people wanted the narrative to be. We have empirical and tangible evidence that the square cut cards were circa 1947.
What is that evidence? People who have said they saw the squared corner cards circa 1947. Yes, people like Ted Z said, they saw the cards in 1949, but that does not mean an issue date of 1949. That is probably when they did first see the cards, and that is the problem. Just because these people did not see the cards in 1947 does not mean they were issued in the year they saw them (1949). If they were the case, Bond Bread did not come out until the 1960, because that is when I first saw one.

For the sake of confusion, just for now - let's call the 1947 round and square cornered card the “Main Bond Bread Set”. Some of the other sets associated with Bond Bread were printed and issued before 1947. Yes, there were other sets associated with Bond Bread that were issued circa 1949-1950, but none of them were from the main 1947 sets. I understand that it would be possible to take the 1947 main Bond Bread sets and reissue them circa 1949-1950s or later, but there is no proof that there was ever a reissue of 1947 main Bond Bread cards: in any form or time. On the other hand, we have first hand knowledge for the issuing of the main Bond Bread cards circa 1947, information gathered through direct collecting of the cards.

What we do know is that the Bond Bread cards inserted into loaves of bread were more an East coast regional issue of cards. Whereas the squared corner cards we call Bond Bread W571 were more a nation issue. Think about them as you would S&H Green Stamps. For those of you who don’t know-S&H Green Stamps were a loyalty rewards program that allowed customers to earn stamps at participating retailers. The stamps could be collected in booklets and redeemed for products from the S&H catalog. This program became popular nationwide.The squared corner cards were kind of like that, retailers would give them out, they were distributed as part of a rewards program to customers.

Customers would receive the cards at the checkout counter of supermarkets, department stores and gasoline stations among other retailers. All information points to Aarco Playing Card company, as the company that offered the cards to retailers. This is why we can not find a single issuer of cards but many different issuers of the cards. This is why people say they receive their cards from many different retailers. Retailers had a choice of subjects to choose from, Sports Stars, Cowboys, Hollywood Screen Stars, cards were all offered for sale by Aarco Playing company as a loyalty rewards program for retailers: and the evidence is that the loyalty rewards program cards were all printed with square corners. Yes, other cards were offered for sale in boxes or sheets but they had round corners or were perforated cards.

We do know that Bond Bread had a rewards program or say free promotional giveaway with their D 302 Jackie Robinson set. The 13 cards that make up the 1947 Jackie Robinson Bond Bread set were available for free at grocery stores and other distribution methods. See ad from the August 19, 1947 Baltimore Afro American Newspaper, it seems to back this up. See the promotional ad that says: Free offer! Your grocer will give you a pocket-size reproduction of this Jackie Robinson photograph free for the asking. Get yours today.


Although the square cut cards W571 set, has long been believed that they were promo cards, like the D302 from Bond Bread, there is no proof for Bond Bread being the distributor. All information suggests Aarco was the seller and manufacturer of these cards. Aarco would sell the W571 square set to any retailer who wanted to distribute the cards. We understand that the D305 set of Jackie Robinson Bond Bread cards was an East coast regional promo issue of cards. Whereas the squared corner cards we call Bond Bread W571 were more a nation promo issue for any business to use. The W571 set includes all square cut cards like the David Festberg warehouse find of Bond Bread cards in the 1980s, and the BCS sets offered in 1988.

Jackie Robinson D302
 

Thanks to Shaun Fyffe, (net54baseball,com member: CharleyBrown). Who had put in a lot of hard work and research into the release date and distribution methods of the D302 Jackie Robinson Bond Bread set of 13. Who posted his findings on net54baseball,com.

https://www.net54baseball.com/showpo...51&postcount=1

We now know that the D302 set of Jackie Roblnson cards were issued in several different years, According to Mr. Shaun Fyffe and his research - the cards were issued in 1947 -1950. The above post gives a lot of facts and it is worth looking at, too much information to digest here. But I do want to point out some of the great research on what Mr. Fyffe did discover about how the cards were distributed, and where they were distributed.

“The Portrait – Facsimile card was given out in stores as a promotional item in 1947, and that is why there are so many more copies of that card in comparison to the others. We do not have enough information to determine how the other cards were distributed, though I have tracked down one card with the name of a small grocery store written on it. I am not sure if the writing was done by the store owner, or by the recipient of the card as a means to identify where he/she got it from. If the writing was done by a store owner, it is possible that the card was also given away as a promotional item, and it was not actually packaged in the bread itself. Perhaps the card was given away with the purchase of bread, though not actually inserted in the packaging? It is hard to tell without any other cards featuring similar writing or stamping. In scouring the archives, the majority of Bond Bread advertisements using Jackie Robinson that I could find were, in fact, from newspapers that targeted the African-American community.” Mr. Fyffe.

“It should be noted that, as early as June of 1947, African-American newspapers in all major baseball U.S. cities began running advertisements promoting Jackie's endorsement deal with Bond Bread, and also the availability of the promotional card. This is quite interesting, as it was initially believed that Branch Rickey would not allow Jackie to sign an endorsement deal until the season was over, as he didn't want it to be a distraction. Come September of 1947, the card's distribution expanded to every major city from Montreal to St. Louis. This Bond Bread set should no longer be considered a regional set for that very reason. As such, the Bond Bread facsimile-signature card should be considered Jackie's true rookie card / first nationally distributed rookie card.” Mr. Fyffe.

It has been assumed that the set D302 was released in 1947, and that the cards were distributed through packages of bread. But we know that the D302 cards were issued in several different years and never inserted in the bread packages. The first card was the Portrait-Facsimile card with the bio back. This card was first seen in Harlem in June / July of 1947, and was distributed by grocery store owners for free. The others in the set were issued in promo packs, with two slices of bread and coupons. John

The right name Arrco
 

All this time I have been spelling ARRCO Playing Card company as Aarco. That is wrong: At the Chicago’s World’s Fair in 1933-34 Arrow Playing Card Co., introduced its new identity as ARRCO. John

Who did find a warehouse with Bond Bread cards in it? Where did BCS get their cards
 

Who did find a warehouse with Bond Bread cards in it? Where did BCS get their cards? What do these two stories have in common - we cannot believe either of the two stories. For reasons discussed earlier, those two stories does not make any sense to many collectors.

Most of us know the story of David Festberg selling trading cards in the 1980s. Most of us heard he found a stash of Bond Bread cards in 1988. But we have reason to believe the Festberg warehouse story is a rumor.

Most of us know that BCS sold Bond Bread cards in the 1980s. BCS is said to have purchased their cards from a widows dealer. Is that a true story? Can we trust what BCS said in a letter about the cards they had for sale?

When questioned by Ted Z, Festberg acted like he knew nothing about finding a stash of Bond Bread cards in a warehouse, we have other reasons to believe that there was no warehouse find by David Festberg! The BCS letters are not without their share of controversy. Stanley Apfelbaum was a hustler, and a person of questionable character. A little bit of background, “The Baseball Card Society” was founded in 1988 by Stanley Apfelbaum as a way to sell baseball cards to subscribers for a fee, of course plus shipping and handling. Stanley Apfelbaum, a former numismatist of telemarketing fame. Although Mr. Apfelbaum is no longer with us; his reputation for boiler room tactics, altering coins, and frankly ripping off investors in the coin world still is.

While we can not say that BCS was a scam, it was not as truthful as could have been. Mr. Apfelbaum told some truth in his promotional letters, but much of what he had to say was just hype or a flat out lie to sell baseball cards. As for the Bond Bread cards, he added a lot of hype to sell the set for more money then they were worth at the time. But much of the hype was fact, the facts were just embellished.

It is almost certain that Mr. Apfelbaum did buy his cards from a big time widows collector. But he did not buy the best of the best, a 24 card set out of a 48 card set, he brought what was left. It was just hype to say BCS purchased the best of a 48 card set, 24 in all. The BCS cards were not cards left over that did not make it into Bond Bread loaves of bread, just more hype and a lie. The cards were not from Bond Bread 1947, but they were from 1947.

I did try to figure out who was that big time dealer who passed away and their widow sold off the collection. I had no luck, but I will keep looking. Sadly I believe that information is lost.

Many of the hobby’s pioneers came to mind. Jefferson Burdick who was on a different level then everybody else. Jefferson Burdick a collector of printed ephemera, he is best known for collecting trading and baseball cards. Burdick is often considered to be the greatest card collector in history,and has been called "The Father of Card Collecting. He started The American Card Catalog, otherwise known as the ACC. He died in 1963. But Burdick donated his entire collection to the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York in 1947. Writing in 1948, he stated his belief that it should be "a national collection belonging to everybody.

Then there was Larry Fritsch- but he died December 8, 2007. How about Renata Galasso, but she was a woman- also still alive. Renata was quite a business woman. The story goes that she started putting together sets and selling them as a way to pay for college in the early 70's, and ended up growing the business to the point where she called herself the "Worlds Largest Hobby Card Dealer".

Alan Rosen "Mr. Mint"- died January 24, 2013) was an American sports collectibles dealer who was especially active in the 1980s and 1990s. None of the above could be that famous collector.

More to come: What I have is long, so I have broken it up in parts. The last part may be the smoking gun. John.

The Smoking Gun-
 

The Smoking Gun-

First I have given thought as to when all the confusion around the cards we call Bond Bond became mainstream. It was around 1988 when we as collectors did see more confusion, mayhem, and chaos come to a head around the cards we call Bond Bread. Before 1988 old-timers did not have the cares we do today around the cards we call Bond Bread. So I have tried connecting with these old-times to see what they knew that we do not. I have posted what these old-timers have told me. But I can only say that information has given us only about a 90% understanding of the confusion around the cards we call Bond Bread.
I have been looking for that smoking gun that would give us 100% proof. I believed that proof could come from what Ted Z posted in Net54baseball. But most of what I read did more harm than good. What Ted Z posted in Net54baseball added to the confusion.

(1947 BOND BREAD and its "imposters"....show us your cards? ) by Ted Z; did cause a lot of confusion. But that post has also given some of the answers… to that confusion. Dave Hornish is just one who posted in Net54baseball, I see this as the smoking gun. It has been there all this time…4/7/2009. I believe that David Hornish post has the answer to most of the confusion around the square cut cards and Festburg cards we call Bond Bread W571., and the BCS cards.

Dave Hornish posted in: 1947 BOND BREAD and its "imposters"....show us your cards? An article from Sports Collectors Digest, by Bob Schulhof, January 22, 1993. Dave Hornish: “I have been reading this thread with interest and have now scanned a 1/22/93 SCD article concerning the 24 card "subset". Whether or not the author's comments are all true I cannot say but it does shed some light no matter”

Shed some light, that is understated, maybe not when David Hornish posted that statement. But with all the information that has come forward from this investigation that article does confirm what other eyewitnesses have said. For me it is the confirmation that was needed, I now have no problem in saying- the information I have given is 99% correct. More to come. John

Is it just me or has this thread somehow made it even more confusing...?

https://www.net54baseball.com/pictur...ictureid=38285

Jason,thank you for posting. I am sorry to hear that this post has made it more confusing for you. Is there something I can try and clear up…or is it the whole thread. You probably already know this…but the two cards you have posted are cards that were inserted into loaves of Bond Bread and are classified as D 305. Nice cards.

But let's say you did not know, this post would tell you to look at the backs and if there were cream white then you know they were the 1947 cards that were inserted into loaves of Bond Bread. Round cornered (die-cut) cards on cream white paper stock. John.

I was half joking, but I do find it difficult to keep up with these threads when the information seems to jump around all over the place — similar to the guidepost Bond thread by TedZ.

The main points I've gathered from both of the threads...

A — What most collectors would like referred to as 1947 Bond Bread are either:

"1947" Bond Bread Jackie Robinson set... which have different images with square corners and include the iconic portrait/facsimile auto card, but ...
— these were not packaged in the bread and were rather a set of ad/promo cards for the bread cards... and...
— based on some of the images... these did not all come out in 1947...

1947 "Homogenized" Bond Bread cards... the real deal, not the "imposters" as TedZ had put it... with their irregular beveled corners, straight from the bread packages... but ...
— what was the distribution on these cards? Was it a "regional" issue or were these all along the East Coast where it should be considered a "true" RC?

B — What most people are unsure about being referred to as 1947 Bond Bread but are actually:

1947 Sports/Screen Star Subjects... that were similar cards packaged in 4x subset boxes with W.S.N.Y printed [AJ Wildman & Son] on the back of the box... but...
— may or may not have been issued w/ beveled corners, depending on the timeline of the same printer using overflow cards, similar process, etc.

And any other weird/rare/oddball scalloped-edge Elgee and/or dual-sided cards from the same era... that always pop up in these threads, but for the most part are irrelevant to the conversation...

C — What most people do not want referred to as 1947 Bond Bread cards:

Later issued, square-shaped and sometimes larger format Exhibit cards...

D — And of course what collectors are terrified of referring to as 1947 Bond Bread cards:

The "1980s" Festburg "Find"...
— which are not "fake" cards and were most likely to printed around the same time, but a few years later in the late 1940s/1950s (?) as the next run (?) of cards with the same images from the print manufacturer...
— but to be produced for the box sets, not the bread... and on a lower quality paper stock, which then over time became surplus in a warehouse...
— And is likely why PSA no longer grades the card... similar to Star basketball... until it does again

Don't forget the Bond Bread Perforated - unlike the Exhibits, PSA still grades these...if you can find them. I have the Ted Williams Exhibits and rounded corners, but need to find the perforated.

Bond Bread Perforated ?
 

I agree that the Perforated cards are hard to find, when you do find them they come at a premium cost. Although the perforated cards share images with the Bond Breads cards as well as others of that era; the perforated cards have nothing to do with Bond Bread.

The cards were actually issued in sheets by a company called “Elgee” for use by various businesses. The set was advertised as 46 cards to a set. It is not clear how many different subjects were included or sets there were. The set consisted of “Sports-Hollywood-Cowboys”.

Some cards have been found imprinted with store advertising, which appears to be rubber stamped. Issues date circa 1940s. Precise dating for this issue is unknown. But many of the images are from late 1930s-1946. These cards are frequently misidentified as Bond Bread cards, even by third party grading companies and auction houses. John

Part 2: Who did find a warehouse with Bond Bread cards in it? Where did BCS get thei
 

Maybe it was not a famous collector at all, but just a collector who heard about the warehouse cards that Arrco had and purchased them. Sounds like hype from Mr. Apfelbaum…to sell his cards…saying it was a famous collector. Mr. Apfelbaum was a master at twisting the truth or embellishing the truth to make what he was selling more appealing. But the story still goes that a collector did buy the warehouse cards from Arrco and when he died his widow sold off his collection of cards, circa 1980s. Interesting this story was around long (circa 1970s) before the story of David Festberg warehouse find and the BCS cards were for sale

David Festberg and BCS were selling W571 Bond Bread square cut cards circa 1988-1990s. The question of where did they get their cards, has us questioning the stories around the Festberg and BCS cards, asking are they the real deal or some trick or scheme to sell cards. The truth is that Festberg and BCS could have been scheming to sell cards, but those cards are the real deal.

We have information that those cards were around and kept by a collector long before the cards were for sale in 1988. -1990s. This collector somehow obtained from a waterhouse boxes of the W571 cards, circa 1960s-1970s And when he died circa 1980s, his widow started selling off his collection. It is now believed that Festberg and BCS did get their W571 cards they had for sale from the widow who put up her husband's W571 cards he acquired from a warehouse. Meaning there was no warehouse find by David Festberg and the story of where BCS did get their cards is mostly true!

All these years and not one magazine article from David Festberg himself, on how Festberg found the cards in a warehouse in 1988. No sports article with Festberg about a Bond Bread warehouse find. There are numerous articles, stories and rumors about Festberg and a warehouse find, but I have found none where he himself tells the story. All the stories I have found are hearsay, meaning someone told someone and that someone wrote about what they heard. BCS tell us where they did get their cards, but has embellished the story on how, saying they purchased the best of 24 cards from a 48 card set. John

Let’s rehash the Bond Bread controversy.
 

I don’t know anything about Bond Bread cards but wanted to share these images that may or may not be present or discussed elsewhere in the thread just because I recently saw them. Ignore, if appropriate.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...e3e198f43d.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...6d4df49370.jpg

bam!

This is big
 

Thank you CardPadre. This is great. I do need time to look it over, Thank you again. It came at just the right time, It fits in with what I am going to write about the smoking -gun. John.

That is an understatement! John

Not sure if it was those exact ones, but I believe the Baseball Card Society documents have been posted before.

The theory then being that the "Festburg Find" was a surplus print run of Series 3 and Series 4 of the Sports Star Subjects boxes... 11x baseball players + 1x boxer in each series...
Which would've been based on the original 48-card Bond Bread set of 44x baseball players, 4x boxers... likely produced by the same print company (Aarco?) and just separated into Series... which would've been the 2nd half of the set...
The Sports Star Subjects may have originally (1947-1948?) been packed with rounded corners that were a way to recycle surplus cards from actual Bond Bread printed cards... but then later (1948-1950?) switched over to square cards, since no reason to clip the corners if not in bread packaging... and then eventually also shifted to lower quality paper stock...
Which that surplus of later printing is what likely became the "Festburg Find"...? And accounts for the difference in paper stock, back color, etc. relative to the "bread-issued" original Bond Bread cards...

Auction photos of intact boxes/sets of the Sports Star Subjects have been posted before. I don't have them saved, but if anyone had them and could post... that would likely be helpful

:eek:


How much more proof is needed at this point. These are Homogenized Bond Bread cards.

Now, how to go about getting the two major card graders to get on board with this information.

Very hard to deny it now.

Thanks CardPadre and HUZZAH to John in dogging this effort.

I stand GOBSMACKED......

Cheers and WOOT!!!


Butch

Collectors & Traders Sport Star Subjects and the boxes they came in.
 

Collectors & Traders Sport Star Subjects and the boxes they came in.

Collectors & Traders Screen Star Subjects.
 

Collectors & Traders Screen Star Subjects.