+2. Very spot on.
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I agree with a lot of what was said in the video Peter posted. The one point in which I disagree is that by collecting cards in the Kurt’s Magic Juice Era, you automatically agree with the practice.

Good video. Thanks for sharing.

He should have never shown that cert!

Sent from my SM-G998U using Tapatalk

Correct. It would be akin to not doing steroids in the steroid era, but being blamed for agreeing with those that used them, only because a lot of players used them. :)

I perosnally. would probably not want to own a card that has been cleaned with Kurt's vs one that hasn't been cleaned, all things being equal.
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Snirt tends to last a little longer.

Butch

Yes, most of the good stuff is late in the interview.

31:30 Hoge discusses providing grader notes

38:40 Card cleaning

42:30 SGC acquisition

I have never seen the man before, but he seems approachable and fairly transparent throughout the interview.

Yes, most of the good stuff is late in the interview.

31:30 Hoge discusses providing grader notes

38:40 Card cleaning

42:30 SGC acquisition

I have never seen the man before, but he seems approachable and transparent throughout the interview.

Not sure if these have been posted before. Safety data sheets for Kurt's spray and polish. I guess these at least reveal the secret ingredients?

https://www.kurtscardcare.com/_files...cc7ae243b2.pdf

https://www.kurtscardcare.com/_files...81e102e472.pdf

Adding to Peter's post.

https://youtu.be/fVXN04tZ22g

It's been published and talked about for a long time. He's also mentioned numerous times that he uses a small amount of rubbing alcohol in his spray.

For those unaware, every card manufacturer uses rubbing alcohol to clean up stray ink marks on signed cards when they get them back from the athletes after having them sign. They literally sit there with a q-tip and a bottle of rubbing alcohol, cleaning them up one by one. The cards often come back with all sorts of marks and smudges from the athletes stacking them while the ink is still wet.

First, I doubt this is true given that I have personally seen dozens of cards come out of the pack with ink smudges on the back from the player stacking them when wet.

Second, that's irrelevant. What a manufacturer does to a card before it's packed out becomes part of production. What a person does to a card after it comes out of the pack is alteration. The manufacturer isn't altering a card pre-pack out by definition. A manufacturer cuts cards before putting them in packs. That doesn't mean a consumer can cut them and it not be alteration.

"Card bros" defending in the comments. It's all good!!

Rubbing alcohol/ethanol/etc isn't the most concerning thing, it's the detergent/surfactant(s) that concerns me.

Those generally stick around to whatever they're applied to and can cause everything from a surface that is prone to environmental staining to a negative effect on the bonding of fibers in the paper/cellulose. It can also effect the moisture content of the fibers (and between fibers) which are effects that won't show up until many years/decades later.

Using the 2nd chemical "polish" just compounds the possible issues by locking in the detergent/surfactant into the card.

I had this interaction on eBay for a card I sold.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...ffa2ec56d4.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...d4605caed0.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...1be2fed5a3.jpg

Fortunately it’s his card now, not mine. This card was already compromised from a chemical cleaning (not cleaned by me, and it was sold slabbed SGC Altered). This guy cracked it and wanted a refund after it was ruined.

And what about the "proprietary detergents"? If you're going to be the Great Defender (shout out to the Platters), at least address the whole thing.

I like the part in the document where it says the chemical used should be in a well ventilated area. Not exactly the best conditions in a literal air tight sealed case with a centimeter of total space for air lol. How can you even argue with that.

I think that pertains to minimizing the hazard of inhaling it?

No clue. But in any case, I wouldn't want that on my card.

“Yes, but I didn’t inhale.”

You need to drink the card bro Kool Aid. :) It's all good I am telling you. LOL the very notion that we are at a place where people approve of treating cards with shit that needs to comply with OSHA hazardous materials disclosures. What a world.

SDS forms are both very specific and very generalized depending on what part of the SDS you're dealing with.

Technically, if spilled this cleaner should be cleaned with "non-combustible absorbent material, (e.g. sand, earth, diatomaceous earth, vermiculite) and place in container for disposal according to local / national regulations"

...realistically you'll clean it up with a paper towel, throw it in a trash can, and it will be of extremely little danger.

You would have to work in a very "by the book" lab to follow the recommended SDS procedure for every instance of a noted occurrence.

I guess we have lab-created cards now!

Very good points. I would just like to add a few details.
The SDS should also have "% Ranges" of the hazardous chemicals such as 5-15%, It could or should list 'Water" or distilled water and that range. Also The non haz Proprietary ingredients may include the surfactant if they are non Haz. Most are Non-Haz but that too should show a " % range". All of them should add up to at least 100%. Still not giving up any formulas or trade secrets

If the alcohol content is 15% or greater, it would need to be classified as "UN1170 Ethanol Solutions, which is an EPA RCRA Hazardous in Section 14.
If Kurt wants to call it "Non-Haz", he has to prove it with a simple "Flashpoint" test from an accredited laboratory. It costs a whopping $50 bucks. Save on the meth and get the test is my advice.

If it flashes at 140F or lower, it's Flammable. 140F-160F it's "Combustible". Both are hazardous. It may qualify to ship DOT as a "Y" Limited Quantities to his customers.

Your almost there Kurt. Good luck. Hope OSHA wasn't too hard on you.:)

Imagine if he had to prove it wasn't hazardous to the card. :D

You would.

It's certainly not irrelevant to the argument that everyone opposed to card cleaning uses when they say that the reason you shouldn't use rubbing alcohol on cards is because we don't know what the long term effects are of using it. They are, of course, wrong, but that's a different discussion.

I don't know anything about the detergents he uses. I don't use his spray to soak my cards. I use distilled water.

+1 for a Platters shout out.

OK. Then until you know more, perhaps you should stop defending him, as you've done here and before.

The idiocy of this board has no bounds.

You should probably just keep claiming that we don't know the long term effects of card cleaning despite the fact that it's been going on for at least a hundred years with millions of examples to point to, including the majority of the most valuable cards in the hobby.

Hell, even Jefferson Burdick advocates for it, and discusses how to do it in his book.

Why do I care what Jeff Burdick thought? Different world, where having an example was everything and set completion was paramount. There's a reason bleaching, for example, has been frowned upon since at least the early 1990s when I restarted collecting.

Don’t know what they are or anything about them, but we know there are no long term effects of Kurts. That makes a lot of sense. Or maybe it’s more like…

Travis, have you ever made a meaningful or nice comment on n54?

You are a closet card cleaner and quite possibly a card trimmer (of course I have no proof, just very suspicious). I honestly don't know how you are still here. Leon's patience is something to behold.

If I owned this forum and somebody had as many posts as you with almost none of them being positive and the majority of them causing disputes you would've been warned and or removed months and months ago. Reflect on yourself.

You should go make a new forum and co found it with Kurt.

Truer words have not been spoken....nor been more ironic.

He gets jumped from all sides every time he posts. There are clearly some posters obsessed with him. I'd love to moderate a sit down with he and a few of them. It would be fun.

Sometimes, he throws flames because people talk down to him so much, and when he uses logic, they dismiss it. For example, chirping back to a clearly relevant point by saying something "has been frowned upon since the 1990s" is not a valid point in a debate.

I'm glad Leon allows open discussions/disagreements. I laughed when I saw this thread had been resurrected because I knew it would be off the rails again.

I'm fine with arguing and seeing every side of things. But I don't like when it's somebody's entire persona, and is seemingly done on purpose just to get reactions. He will quote this denying that fact, but there's over 2000 posts of pure undeniable proof. It's not really hard to see why people argue and gang up on him, he wants us to do it and loves it, else why would he make everything into an argument against himself. Literally multi quoting entire threads saying why every single person is wrong. It's very strange.

Because it's the best resource we have on the beginnings of this hobby and its history. The point is that this is a long standing tradition whether you like it or not. And it's been a widely accepted practice whether you like it or not. And it's not going away.

Tradition or not does not answer the question whether certain chemicals damage cards. Bleaching cards at one point was widespread to lighten toning. Do you think that's an acceptable practice?

You do know what toning is, right? And why it happens? Because your comment suggests otherwise.

To be fair, in industrial settings pretty much everything has to have an MSDS.
We had them for chromed steel cylinder rods.

No that using some witches brew of alcohol is good. Or what might be mineral spirits as "polish"

If "we" know both types of alcohol are ok for paper long term post a link to proof of that. Preferably from some reliable source, not some card doctors website.

Aside from what one may think of the alcohol(s) + detergent mixture, it's very obvious at this point that the "polish" is an addition/adulteration to the card.

https://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=86149

You did not answer my question.