I 100% agree that if this became a legal issue for PSA they wound most definitely fight not to turn over anything.

What I am not sure of is how PSA could end up as a party to a lawsuit on something like this. They have been able to avoid that several times before when bogus items were discovered to be in their slabs, most recently a few years ago when Jose managed to get a few hundred homemade vintage cellos with stars showing successfully graded.

Based on what has been exposed I can understand how one might go after PWCC and/or some of the larger card doctors legally. What makes it different for PSA this time? And if PSA can be attached to this then what about eBay? They haven’t shut off or temporarily suspended PWCC yet despite what has been reported. Shouldn’t they also be responsible for making sure that their platform is not being used to commit crimes?

I hope so, the efforts on BO to out cards have been noble but at best they can scratch the recent surface. I am a bit skeptical about the prospects of obtaining this relief from the courts but it would be a game-changer.

Failure to act in good faith with respect to the guarantee is one legal possibility that comes to mind, assuming the facts are there. I would not be surprised at all if many people come forward in this regard. I can think of others as well but don't want to shoot from the hip just yet.

The Jack Nicholson line, You can't handle the truth, comes to mind in reflecting whether people REALLY want to know.

PSA is getting paid to grade cards and is failing miserably to catch these issues. They have a guarantee that needs to be upheld. eBay is just the facilitator of the transactions and I suspect that if anyone accused would have their auctions shut down there would be a lot less for sale there. In time I imagine they will deal with PWCC depending on where this goes.

I continue to be puzzed by Sloan's (probably from JO really) statement that only if the seller is unknown should someone send in cards for review.

One, it seems inconsistent with the plain terms of the guarantee.
Two, how often is the seller "unknown"?

Brent Mastro says "He is working with PSA" when PSA should be suing the S*** out of him and d-listing the schmuck. AND e-bay sells 1000's of dollars in forgeries and fakes everyday 365 days a year. Do you think they care? Think again.:p NEW FLASH: They don't and they will protect their little Brenty just like PSA is.

Meanwhile, by changing his ID, Gary appears to be showing his intent to keep right on keeping on.

Failing miserably? On what evidence is that opinion based?

Some message board detectives seem to have shown evidence that possibly as many as 1000 cards have made it into PSA holders illegitimately. They’ve authenticated more than 30M items. THREE THOUSANDTHS OF ONE PERCENT is better than 99.99% right based on the evidence available so far.

While i too believe there is more to be uncovered I think it is premature, and potentially libelous, to make such a general sweeping statement before there is evidence to support it.

Let’s not get in front of our headlights.

IMO most will never be uncovered by these methods. This is just focused on one seller and one individual dealer for a few years. Because there is a paper (internet) trail given the nature of the relationship. Do you think he is the only individual good at altering cards? Do you think PWCC is the only seller who has sold altered cards? Do you think this is a recent phenomenon?

I would kill to see their submission records.

so true. there are probably 100,000 cards or more, IMHO still a good ratio for PSA. But isn't this what we pay them for? The grade is secondary. I just want to know they are not altered and they can't tell either or they are scamming with guys like Brent Mastro, which is a distinct possibility.

By your posts everyone and their brother can tell what kind of person you are. You do a great job in that respect. With respect to Mastro, I dare you to ever find one instance when I said he was innocent (without saying until proven guilty or something to that effect). That is a fallacy carried forward by El Chapo's lawyer. BTW, I also wrote a letter to the judge on the matter and it was not flattering to Mastro.

Hmmm. I really am trying to picture that. :D

Exactly. This is far beyond Moser and Brent but they are a good start. And even if it’s only a thousand cards or a few thousand or whatever found to be missed, PSA has a guarantee that needs to be upheld. Doing some quick math it seems their exposure will go well past the 800K they are holding in reserve.

Professional Sports AUTHENTICATOR. Indeed.

As I see it, if PSA was confident this was a limited problem, they should have no objection to releasing their submission records.

Parenthetically I wonder if PSA or Beckett has any clue what it does to the stress level of any collector who has put what for him/her is a meaningful sum of money into cards, to see card after card after card exposed as altered, and to see a major seller who most of us have bought from exposed as an outlet for a card doctor? That statement from Sloan suggests complete indifference, to me anyhow.

Even people who don't care about alteration surely are concerned with the value of their cards. And people who care about alteration are beside themselves, that I have talked to. This also is raising the stress level of every honest dealer.

LOL, maybe a bit too passionate but otherwise just hate scammers in all areas of my life. The list is growing but not limited to cards. Thanks for clarifying that for me. I must have somewhat misremembered. All the best!:)

I think you can tell from my posts how I feel about it after spending 75K the past year. :) I don't care what happens to the value as 3/4 of them are PSA. The truth will always trump everything for me personally. I won't buy another card until BM (no, not Bowl Movement), Brent Mastro goes to jail and PSA sues him.

From your diplomatic posts I never would have guessed how you felt.:eek:

Busiest person at PSA right now? The guy going in and lowering all of the SMR values so if they have to pay out it won't cost much.

"Oh, PSA 7 1960 Yaz rookie? I think the SMR reflects that to be $15. We honor our guarantee. Just send it in and we will send you the $15."

I wonder if this was looked into by the media a little deeper if that would bring some of this to the attention to the broader public that would force some hands......perhaps an ESPN Outside the Lines special, or something similar...…

If anyone truly believes PSA will guarantee all these cards you are being grossly misled. I have several contacts with first hand experience both good and bad. Some with the exact same scenarios being played out here and the results are not "guaranteed". I am afraid many will be told to go pound sand. Good thing PSA sits near Newport Beach.

But we know they are going to resist and hope this all goes away quietly with them only refunding a few squeaky wheels. This time I believe it is going to be different though. Assuming what we are hearing from BO is true, there has been a blatant disregard by PSA in many of the procedures we rely upon when paying money to them to authenticate cards. And they need to be held accountable and honor their guarantee whether it was negligence on their part, getting duped by some fraudsters or whatever. Their guarantee is pretty clear to me as well as the lawyers I have spoken to. In no way does it say go back to whomever you purchased it from for recourse. And it doesn’t say if someone is intentionally deceiving them then they won’t honor it. I suspect regardless of where this heads, the guarantee will soon be reworded.

And Martin that’s why we have high priced lawyers in this country.

To claim that only 1,000 bad cards have made it into PSA Holders is a ridiculous understatement. It takes a ton of work and research to positively expose just one single card. For every one that is exposed, you can figure there are about 10 that get by unscathed. The fact is nobody will ever know how many bogus cards are circulating in various collections, now that the cat is out of the bag.

So the "THREE THOUSANDTHS OF ONE PERCENT" claim is completely baseless.

You can really tell from these posts who cares about the integrity of the hobby, and who is motivated by money. I urge anyone here who truly cares about the hobby to boycott PSA and stop sending them submissions. They'll likely not make good on their supposed "guarantee", so this is one of very few meaningful actions we can take to instigate change.

If someone deceived THEM, they would have a claim over under the submission agreement, like an insurer would against the party at fault, but in no way does it affect the guarantee as I read it.

I wonder if PSA has asked to contact the seller because PWCC has already agreed to refund purchases in exchange for not being banned from future submissions and not falling out of PSA’s good graces (i.e PSA promoting their record sales price on card X).

And that is EXACTLY why PSA is taking the position they are taking. To minimize the value hit on what is in circulation now so that the damage to collectors and to their brand is minimized.

Once all of the outed cards are taken care of the rest is conjecture as far as the majority of the hobby is concerned. Anything that remains in a PSA slab is assumed to be good until proven otherwise. By keeping the submission records private PSA minimizes the chance that someone with a non-outed slab that may be tainted actually submits it for a guarantee review. It’s worked for them this way before. And as I said earlier, as long as they are being legitimate when they do a guarantee review and not just rubber stamping it as good to avoid honoring the guarantee they will be in the clear legally.

Realistically there are always going to be some slabbed cards that are illegitimate from all TPGs. You will never be able to root them all out. Without the submission, sales records and photos I doubt many of the non-outed ones will ever be discovered. Providing that information to the public is not in their interests. One could also argue that it would also be contrary to the interests of those with a substantial amount of money already tied up in slabbed cards. Bottom line is don’t hold your breath waiting to get that info officially.

The real questions are

A) what can be done to minimize the ability of additional “re-works” from getting into slabs going forward?

B) will those who are caught trying to cheat be sufficiently punished so that others are deterred from trying to do the same?

Are you employed by PSA?

And here and there even a few good ones.

More like in hopes that PSA will not seek to go after them criminally.

PSA is now the puppet master and Brent is the puppet.

Stay tuned, there will be press coverage soon as I understand it.

No. My statements are personal opinions and observations based on consulting experiences I’ve had in the area of corporate crisis management. I was also one of the people who discovered and did a lot of the message board sleuthing on the hommade cellos issue a few years ago and lived through how PSA handled that one.

I see the court room now ...


Card Collector: PSA - Did you grade huge amounts of altered baseball cards?!


Judge: You don't have to answer that question!


PSA: I'll answer the question. You want answers?


Card Collector: I think I'm entitled to them.


PSA: You want answers?!


Card Collector: I want the truth!


PSA: You can't handle the truth!


Son, we live in a world that has baseball cards, and those cards have to be graded by men with plastic cases. Who's gonna do it? You, SGC? You, BGS? I have a greater responsibility than you can possibly fathom. You weep for card collectors, and you curse PSA. You have that luxury. You have the luxury of not knowing what I know -- that card investor's financial loses, while substantial, probably were lessened; and my existence, while grotesque and incomprehensible to you, saves money.

You don't want the truth because deep down in places you don't talk about at parties, you want me grading that baseball card -- you need me grading that baseball card.

We use words like "alteration," "conservation," and "authenticity." We use these words as the backbone of a life spent grading baseball cards. You use them as a punch line.

I have neither the time nor the inclination to explain myself to a man who rises and sleeps under the blanket of the very grading services that I provide and then questions the manner in which I provide it.

I would rather that you just said "thank you" and went on your way. Otherwise, I suggest you pick up a loupe and grade your own cards. Either way, I don't give a DAMN what you think you're entitled to!


Card Collector: Did you grade huge amounts of altered baseball cards?!


PSA: I did the job--


Card Collector: -- Did you grade huge amounts of altered baseball cards?!


PSA: YOU'RE GOD DAMN RIGHT I DID!!!

PSA should honor their guarantee and then go after Brent, Moser or whomever to make them whole. Why then are they attempting to put the onus on the card owner to go back to whom they purchased it from for refunds? Shouldn’t they be handling that themselves?

Of course they should! Otherwise, why even claim they provide a guarantee?

In the other ongoing thread, we saw how it turned out when an affected buyer politely asked PWCC for a refund. He was put off and rebuffed. Everyone is now passing the buck, and it's the collector who is screwed.

Do not keep supporting PWCC and PSA and feeding them money. They do not act in the hobby's best interest (just their own). If you really feel a 3rd Party opinion is necessary, use someone else!

PSA is part of a public company and has a board and shareholders to report to and protect. I suspect the best interests of the hobby would come somewhat further down their list.

This.

Selectively quoting me does not make your mob mentality valid.

“3/1000ths of a percent SO FAR!”

“I too believe there is more to be uncovered...”

This is still America people. Remember innocent until proven guilty?


From what has been discovered it appears that PWCC was somehow involved in some unethical and possibly illegal things with some know scams artists. It also appears that they managed to slip some things through PSA and other TPGs.

And here you are, part of a mob that is spouting off all sorts of wild ideas about PSA being complicit in this, PSA is going to weasel out of its guarantee, and other generally unflattering conspiracy theories without any real evidence to substantiate it.

PSA is doing what just about any other publicly traded corporation does when an apparent primary product/service failure has occurred; trying to weed out what of that which has come out is indeed true and what is not, trying to identify what risks exist for the company as a result of it, trying to identify other parties that could potentially be held accountable, trying to minimize the damages to the company, trying to reassure customers, etc.

It may ultimately be proven that there are 100,000 tainted items, but right now there isn’t any evidence to back that up. There is evidence that has been developed that suggests about 1,000 so far. Are 1000 too many? Yes, but it’s far from the epidemic level that the mob is currently panicking about.

For someone who claims to be so concerned about integrity you certainly don’t seem to be very worried about the integrity and fairness of passing judgment on people like myself, and PSA for that matter, without proper basis in fact.

I really do think this statement is horrible.

If you believe someone altered a card, PSA thinks the best thing to do is return the card that they couldn't the alterations on to the same person.

Those will of course just be cracked and resubmitted for a clean number in a new slab, and in time the whole thing will be forgotten.
Or the same people who can't get it right in the first place will re-evaluate???

Here comes the competition!

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...ad7f723447.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/201...bddf357b43.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

IMO telling people to return the card to the seller, and only to go to PSA if the seller is unknown whatever that means, is not appropriate. The guarantee does not require exhaustion of remedies. The whole point was that PSA stands behind marketplace transactions, to inspire confidence.

Well, you are certainly entitled to your opinion, and although I don't agree, I do respect it. People collect for different reasons... some for profit, and others for the love of the hobby. I suppose I'm one of the voices for the latter.

Not part of a mob... just someone who does not want to see the collectors get burned. PSA/Sloan's Letter directly states that the affected collectors should go to the SELLER (not PSA) for refunds. PWCC has already demonstrated that they intend to make this process very cumbersome and difficult. And thus, it is the collector who is screwed.

So while we are apparently miles apart on this, we can still have a good conversation. I don't want to see Collectors take the hit for this, and do want PSA to live up to its long-stated guarantee. Otherwise, it's all just meaningless lip service.

Which is why legal pressure must be brought to bear. I think all the dots could be connected fairly easily if records are subpoenaed from all sources.

But in this case they already have a prior statement from PWCC saying that they will handle it for any cards they brokered. What we don’t know is what, if anything, PSA may have said to PWCC that PSA would do unless PWCC made this offer. We also don’t know that ifbthis offer for PWCC is a result of some conversation. Between PWCC and PSA, whether as part of it PWCC is required to turn over any cards they redeem to PSA to prevent cracking and resubbing them or selling them raw to unsuspecting people.

PSA is part of a publicly traded company. They have shareholders to protect. Why shouldn’t they take advantage of what PWCC is offering to do so? They also said that the guarantee review was an option as well. I don’t see them rejecting to do reviews. I see them trying to minimize the number of reviews they need to do.

I have plenty of gripes about PSA, but I really don’t see their early attempts to minimize their liability as anything other than normal corporate behavior.

If you have a recall on a vehicle or basically any other product, don't you typically take it back to the place where you bought it? I mean, I don't see cars lined up at the actual plant looking to get fixed. Might be a stretch, but kind of how I see it.

You don't necessarily have to be "going after" PSA for some bureau or other to request (demand) records to aid in an investigation.

That's because the dealer is designated by the warranty to take the return. The dealer is a representative of the manufacturer. The PSA guarantee does not say anything about gong to the seller first or designate the seller as an agent.

;)