They are more like incompetent dupes to be honest. They are Professional Authenticators that can't properly authenticate crap. I'm not saying they are in on it, I'm not saying they aren't, but it's clear they can't do their one job.

Christopher Ladas of East Lansing, Michigan, go f*ck yourself!

Go fu** yourself asshole

Leon in my opinion you should delete this guys posts and quoted responses to them, and ban him from the forum. This is not a good look for your site and reflects poorly on the community if any hobby outsiders stumble upon this thread.

Hello! Technically, altering an item without telling the person before purchase can be fraud. Both Doug Allen and Bill Mastro were convicted and sentenced for it along with shill bidding. For now, PWCC is alleged to have, as it appears, shill bid only. Unless the FBI or the Oregon AG get involved and conduct a thorough forensic investigation of the cards and computers, PWCC doesn't have to respond to anyone. In fact they could make a case against those accusers if they wanted -and I only say that since it looks like they have 50-400 million reasons to do so. It is up to the individuals who believe they were targeted or swindled to open a complaint with law enforcement. In the meantime, keep collecting evidence, build up a case and bring it to court if it's warranted, but I recommend net54 not bringing up the word -fraud, instead using the word "alleged" will bolster your case if you all decide upon it.

I'm just trying to look out for my fellow collectors best interests on net54 is all.

PLEASE IGNORE THE TROLL. Chances are it is just someone trying to get this thread to go poof.:)

Yeah, I had a moment of anger reading his posts too, but then realized he's just a troll looking for reactions to amuse himself. Ignore him and he'll drift off to annoy others.

And I've known some hillbillies..... he's too stupid to be one of them.

My main intent was to shine a light on the cockroach, this site comes up in google searches right at the top.

Generally I think we should let members hang themselves. I think I can handle his lawyer. :) But he does need to go to another thread. If he pollutes this one there will only be 17 other threads like it on the front page.

I know, but this type of cockroach is a mutant that thrives on light.

I don't think so...he thought he was anonymous when he made that post. Leon put his name on there with a period in the middle so it didn't show up in Google. I took the period out and gave his location because this isn't 4chan and he doesn't get to anonymously spew garbage like that here.

Well, he doesn't seem to like to be accountable for what he says. Otherwise he wouldn't care that his name is out here. And Dan, right above here, is correct. I did the same name scramble I do for all members who have their name put out here but if another moderator, or someone else, wants to put it out here without scrambling it, it is their call.

I can't think of any thing with the combination of the number of items plus the amount of money.

Art /antiques of course has occasional frauds, which can run into the millions for one item. But usually not so many items. I'm not sure about the hobby lobby artifacts thing, but it's probably close.

I've heard there's a lot of altered/fake coins out of China lately, probably equal, but the scammers are international and smarter about covering their tracks.

There were a few stamp guys on Ebay doing similar stuff, hundreds of items. But their stuff was usually pretty inexpensive. I bought a bad stamp, but it was only about $20. (They ruined a pretty nice 60 cent stamp)
And of course, Fox, Sperati, and Fournier were very prolific.

Even some major collections are auctioned under clever names. Sometimes the collectors name comes out after, sometimes not. If the collector is well known, it can be a plus.

Just asking?
 

What can be seen ?
This is from the pre-TPG days:
Seriously, can you tell if the wax was removed... The other stuff -- bleaching, trimming (maybe erasing) can be visible if it effects the surface ...

I know that bleaching cracker jack cards was obvious sometimes (the 1914s especially) ...

If I have the "before and after" sure I can tell something is wrong but what if I just have the "after" ?
Isn't this what the graders/authenticators are dealing with?
===
Also -- even Alex Jones himself disowned that conspiracy stuff when he was put under oath. (He said that it was his own personal psychosis or something):mad:

Most of my family is from that general area.
Many of them are first responders or are in education.
They ALL knew someone personally who was involved in one way or another, although thankfully none were directly involved.
One person did have their school host a class or two from sandy hook afterwards since the school wasn't usable and education had to go on.
The first responders were called in to provide services normally covered by the local first responders.

Anyone who believes this rubbish about it being fake has got some serious mental problems.

Leon- I have to agree with this post by Jesse. There's no crime in being an idiot- there are idiots under every rock. But this is a terrible look for the board. People come here to relax and get away from this stuff. It really should be deleted and the poster banned.

He's already hung himself so it's time to move on. At least consider getting rid of this garbage.

PSA IS BEING PAID UP TO $5,000 PER CARD TO DO THIS. If they claim they can detect it, and they have a Grade Guarantee, and their President's mantra was "NEVER GET CHEATED," wouldn't you think they should be able to actually do this?

100% agree. In the last few years I've been to shows all over the country (St Louis, Kansas City, Chicago, Atlantic City, White Plains NY, Strongsville OH, Seattle, Phoenix, Dallas, etc) as an attendee or dealer. I've probably met 50 or so Net54 members, but countless people who had no idea what I was talking about when I mentioned Net54. Most recently at Leon's Texas show I had conversations with a few advanced collectors that had not heard about the bogus signed T206s because they don't read message boards. It might be tough to get this info out to the masses.

Could We Start Again Please
 

This was not on the original album but was in the movie. And after reading Net 54 and Blowout for the past week. I'm feeling like we all need to listen to this message. Yes, I know where it is from but the message is what I'm going for here.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7YsOhmMzgac

I agree. This joker needs to be banned.

This is exactly why I left this forum for a few years. The drama gets out of control. I was 30 when I first became a member here. As a history nerd whose dad was into baseball I randomly got into collecting pre-war cards and joined. I've learned a ton and have mostly been encouraged to be part of this great community. Then there's posts like those above. If I read this nonsense back in 2013 I wouldn't have joined.

Again, could we maybe start a separate sub-forum (whatever it's called) for the recent PWCC etc. stuff? We're all here because we have a shared passion. Fraudsters and trolls shouldn't get in the way of that.

IMO ignoring fraud only perpetuates it and makes it more likely you'll be a victim. I get the sentiment that I just want to enjoy the hobby, but fraudsters make that very difficult at most levels of collecting.

Jay this one's for you.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=2465

You should label the threads you post the links to. If you say something like "ALTERED OLD JUDGE FROM PSA 5(MK) to PSA 6" it might lead people to click them... ;-)

Yeah. What might make more sense is a single thread with links to all the bad cards but I don't have the wherewithal to pull that off.

Any person would have to quit their day job, in order to properly label this endless stream of frauds.

It’s overwhelming and is making me question whether PSA is even examining these cards. I think in many cases it’s a quick glance, and they’ll take your hard-earned money. What a pathetic scam so many collectors have bought into. :(

Exactly!

Say you submit a card that ends up in the hands of the G.O.D. on a bad day, and it gets graded harshly. Shouldn't you be able to resubmit it to get the grade it should have?

We all know this has happened many times; a card is submitted and it gets a 7. The person knows damned well that the card deserves a 9, so he resubmits it. It ultimately gets graded correctly as a 9.

That is a problem I see in all this commotion right now. A card was initially submitted, and got a 3. It was resubmitted and now, it's a 5. Which one is actually correct? The 3 could have been from the G.O.D. on a bad day, in which case, the 5 is correct.

I am not saying that all of this is simply "much ado about nothing"; not in the slightest. I believe certain individuals have been gaming the system; but, people have been gaming the system for decades upon decades. This isn't a new thing. It needs to be stopped and fixed, but the hobby will go on.

Steve

I'm not ignoring it! Totally on your side with this crap! I'm simply saying there should be a separate section on this forum for those threads now that it's become so widespread. It's taking away from why we're here. It's likely very discouraging to those considering starting a Net54 account. I'm not sharing my PSA Philly experience because honestly I don't feel comfortable here and that's a problem. That's my choice and I'd hope you'd respect that.

You have to expect that the hottest topic to emerge in the hobby basically in its history has to be discussed ad nauseum.

Current PWCC card outed on BO. E90-2 Wagner.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showthread.php?t=1297563

1887 N172 Old Judge Timothy Keefe BAT AT READY AT 30 DEGREE

FROM PSA 4

TO PSA 7 HIGHEST GRADED

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=2469

Why are there any cards still for sale? Doesn't he realize?

Judge him by his actions, not his words.

He has been informed. Lets see if he takes it down.

:D:D:D:D

There is a Seattle slew of them. He ain't taking nuttin down:D:D:D

Turn those machines back on!!!!!!!

The Wagner just got pulled. Not a good sign it was even listed.

As an aside, whoever "Corndog" is on the other website -- ....Wow ! impressive investigative work.

Well of course. It's just dominating everything else! I'm interested in reading all of this but it's getting overwhelming. I do appreciate though what the OGs have been doing in terms of posting the updated lists that might otherwise get lost in the mix. Thanks for that it really is appreciated.

Of course, Brent's recent video about "conservation" was BS. But pulling that Wagner shows that he does not even believe what he claimed. Why pull a card that had been "conserved" if such conservation is a way to move the hobby forward and not shady in the least?

Edd*e Sm*th

[QUOTE=Peter_Spaeth;1884057]Jay this one's for you.

https://www.blowoutforums.com/showpo...postcount=2465[/i


I break out any slabbed Old Judges I buy and could care less about the grades. Photo clarity is what I care about and last time I checked card doctors haven’t figured out a way to improve that. The guy cleaning the card did a nice job though. I prefer the after to the before.

I got an email from eBay that this was removed; blowout had it on one of their submission lists but now has provided proof of alteration. I am glad it has been taken down.

BUT- they still have up the T206 Jennings AB 460 that has been altered despite it being called out here and by email. How many more jacked cards remain in PWCC’s current auction? Many I am sure.

BO says a list coming today.

Nice. Thanks

As for sandy hoax, it was fake, and anyone with there head still in there ass this long is beyond repair.

This clown is so much more intelligent than all of us but cant spell THEIR correctly....

SGC's "A" does not definitely mean the card was altered. It could have been requested only to be autheticated when it was submitted, or the other general reason for an A if not altered is it's considered worse than poor. I agree with you that the assumption most people are going to have is that it's altered - but based on my understanding of the way SGC does things - that is not necessarily the case.

?
 

Cut and pasted from the SGC website. Their website could be wrong but it seems to contradict what you said? This is all of the verbiage for their ALT grade.

SGC REJECTION CODES
A
Altered (ALT)

Yes, sorry if I'm being unclear. If a card is altered, it WILL get the "A" from SGC. But the A stands for Authentic, not "altered" per se, and they do not distinguish on the flip if the card is just "authentic" or "authetic altered" the way that PSA does. So their rejection codes say "A" but that is in the case something you submit is altered, and you don't check the box to "slab if authentic". If you don't, the card gets sent back to you unslabbed. If you do check that box, it gets slabbed "A" only.

The reason I make the distinction is that some people get cards slabbed only to verify authenticity, and don't care about the grade. This is probably rare, but it happens. When filling out the submission form, you can check "A Only" in another area, and the card just gets slabbed but not graded. I did this recently with a card I knew they would not give a number grade to.

I suppose it's reasonable to assume still that an SGC A is "altered", most of them anyway, but was just making the point that's not necessarily going to be true all of the time. At least they are consistent in their methodology. PSA will give some cards "Authentic" only, some cards "Authentic Altered", and in the past I've seen "Authentic - Trimmed" or perhaps most egregiously - "Athentic - Restored" in cases where the card has a pedigree, is ridiculously expensive, or has considerable hobby press speculation around it. :(

This is what I have done on the VERY rare instances where I submitted a card. I bought a raw '58 Mantle that seemed too nice for the price and I requested only the Authorized 'grade', which it got. I only wanted to know it was a legit card. When it came back it came out of the slab and into the set binder.