...I can hardly wait for #14.

I was wondering when this statement would be posted----the excuses, in case Seattle loses, are starting!

Anyone care to suggest how the Patriots will "cheat" their way thru, in case they win???:D

The conclusions in that article are laughable. One outlier year and the rest are all right in line with the pre-2007 years. Big deal.

Andrew Luck supposedly likes them at the upper limit, like Rodgers. Pretty sure I brought this up earlier in the discussion, but it seems to have been ignored.

I think it's also crazy that MIT and Harvard professors are being ignored. Seems safe to assume these guys are smarter than anyone posting in this thread. Even if they were to be Pats fans, I highly doubt anyone in their positions, achieved through years of incredibly hard work and merit, would risk their scientific reputations by fudging calcs. That non Boston area (Pittsburgh) firm's experiment showed an average 1.8 psi shift. That coupled with the possibility the Pats may have figured out a way to temporarily increase ball pressure while the refs measure them seems enough to create doubt in my mind. I'd also challenge anyone here to take air out of 11 balls in 80 seconds.. This includes taking them out and putting them back in the bag.. And I've allotted 10 sec to open and close the door. "on your mark, set, go!"

That said, I guess the "person of interest's" bathroom run, and a team's bad reputation trump science and are seen as damning evidence. Scary, and I really hope I never, for whatever reason find myself in the media/public crosshairs.. Everyone should watch "Gone Girl" as an example of how little people need to form firm, unbreakable opinions.

Back to the rule and enforcement, I have watched video of refs topping balls off. At one point an official says, "this one's within a psi, it's good". If they're willing to let a pound go, maybe the Colts balls, starting at 13.5, are under the limit at 11.5-12 psi by half, but the refs are ok with it. Maybe they started 0.5-1 pound high, and the refs were ok with that? The pressures of these 11 balls (and Colts' 12) has NEVER been publicly confirmed! I doubt they even know, since they apparently just topped them up. One of my first points that still stands, if the refs and the league didn't care to strictly enforce this rule, why should we?? and if the Pats did cheat, punish them and move on.

At least there's still a game to be played, and I know I'm gonna enjoy it.. Hopefully at least some of the others here will as well.:confused:

... and to single out Tom Brady (with Manning) as pushing for the 2007 rule change is ridiculous. Every QB in the league would push for this, but Brady happened to have the star power to get it done.

I can't offer proof of a prior rules change, but I also highly doubt that home teams had ALWAYS supplied the game balls prior to 2007. I'd guess individual teams have supplied their own balls for the bulk of NFL and football history (they do at all other levels). I'd guess this freedom may have been restricted around the same time the "K" ball came into effect... but may be wrong.

Adding-- just read Brad Johnson bribed someone $7500 to break in the balls prior to the SB in 2003. Classic. Either Bucs fans needs to step up to defend their tainted title.. or we can all just agree to not care.

Yeah, and we all know science has never been proven wrong :rolleyes:

Ummm....junk science???

They cheated to get to the game. They may not have needed to cheat to beat the Colts, but what about the Ravens? How many regular season games did they win by cheating? Anything they accomplish will be tainted.

As far as the Harvard or MIT professors, they can be ignored because they haven't shown anything. They can give a theoretical explanation, but have they done actual research? They can't explain why the 12th ball didn't deflate. They can't explain why the Colts balls didn't deflate. Even if they were at 13.5, by the professors theory, they would still have been below 12.5 if effected like the 11 Pats balls. They can't explain why none of the other teams have this problem, even teams in colder climates than NE. They can't explain how the Pats balls deflated in the first Colts game played indoors in a controlled climate. Their theories are bs.

Hernandez was gone before charges were officially filed. He's not coming back even if he somehow gets off which is unlikely. I believe he should be doing some serious time, 20+.

Every team works around a few rules here and there.

The taping thing? Yeah, they did it, they were just dumb enough to do it after the memo was sent about not doing it from the wrong area. And they were punished - Maybe more for ignoring the memo than the actual act. Even dumber, I doubt it gave them any advantage. Who uses signals when there's radios?

If the NFL decides they cheated here, and they probably will, then there will be more fines, and as you say, a draft pick (Maybe two if Goodell is having a bad day) And If they are found to have violated the rules the fines etc. will be appropriate.

Jumping to conclusions without any facts besides what comes out in the press and which changes daily? - Not sure how facts can change so much, but what's reported as fact does.
Well, that's just part of being a sports fan I guess.

Being a Pats fan is kinda fun the last few years. Gives us a little bit of what it must feel like to be a Yankees fan. :D

Steve B

You did, and Rodgers is lucky his balls didn't magically super-inflate during the Seahawks loss, although he seemed fairly accurate at the end.

I think professors and scientists want their moment in the spotlight as much as anyone. And I'm certain there are a few like this guy, who are dying to give their opinions.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/7/71/Frink.png

I think you're very selective in what you read. Did you not see the comment about refs allowing balls within 1 psi of the NFL limit. This has not been a "problem" before because NO ONE EVER CARED!! I'm sure plenty of footballs have been used at under 12.5 psi, but no one ever complained. Like said before, it's not like refs, or anyone is checking pressure of the game balls in real time

They won't be proven wrong by this bunch here :D

The guys who actually tested with footballs in Pittsburgh seems pretty compelling to me.. Average 1.8 drop in psi.

Ian, I hope you (and the scientists and professors) are correct about this. I would much prefer that Brady not be guilty, and I don't want to see the actual Super Bowl affected, regardless of anyone's guilt. On the other hand, a sh*t-storm for Goodell and the NFL is fine by me.

I do too, and hope it would just go away. I'd guess the vast majority of guys in the league (or anyone who's played), if answering honestly and not knowing who's involved would have said this is not a big deal. What's kind of lame, is it is a big deal now, and you'll get far fewer honest answers going forward. The viewing public will probably now demand all balls be protected in a vault until 1 min before kick off.. and they'll probably stick a camera on the ball handler, like done with cops, so the angry mob can be certain he's not tampering with the sacred balls in the bathroom.

rats--- I think you've served your purpose honorably in this battle. Now Raider Nation needs your activism against that ball fixer Brad Johnson and the 2002-03 Super Bowl Champion** Bucs.

** tainted due to cheating and overall scumbaggery of the lowest kind

To be fair, while researching the NFC Championship game, I found this pic.

Can anyone here squeeze a football to make it look like that? :eek:

I bet Tom Brady and the patriots touched that ball before the NFC championship game...you know, because we know they cheated and all :)

Can someone remind me why this is even a big deal? Is it because they supposedly cheated? Got caught cheating? Other nfl teams/fans/players are jealous? By now, we all know that every team has probably bent the rules at some point or another, but in most cases it's been swept under the rug, ignored, or possibly revealed to be made an example out of. I don't think cheating is ok, but what if the jaguars were caught wearing illegal cleats? Would we even care? I know this isn't the point, but they outscored the colts even more in the second half with fully inflated balls...giving us more reason to laugh about this whole thing.

I know we have the right to speculate, but we know nothing right now and will have to wait for the results before putting them in our fake prison.


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If I had arms like either of those guys I'm guessing I probably could.

But I don't. So the answer is probably not. Unless it's a nerf ball.

Steve B

NSFW Patriots Cialis Parody Commercial. https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=...&v=vd3D2gsPUR0

I thought this was pretty good

http://teamcoco.com/video/drew-brees...aWQiOjg3NDU0fQ


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Had an EX that could bust balls better than ANY NFL`er, past or present. O U C H !!

Thanks.

Any time someone is on the 'wrong' side of a discussion, they prefer that the discussion be terminated. But yes, this is a discussion forum.

I don't have a problem with speculation, it's just how people jump to conclusions so quickly. It only takes one person to say one thing and everyone believes exactly what they said to be true and nothing else matters :(

How are you coming up with that? We've discussed both sides and people are saying what they think is likely. None of us know what happened and obviously, many of the guesses presented here will be wrong. I already said that I hope I'm wrong about what I think likely happened.

I don't really know you but I've been discussing various OT football stuff with Ian for years and have a great deal of respect for his opinions. My tendency would usually be to agree with him, and he's swayed me on a few points in this discussion.

But when you have guys just saying that everyone is picking on the Patriots because we are "haters" or because of their "success" - that is classic deflection and doesn't win anyone to your way of thinking.

Scott...I don't care about swaying anyone, but what I'm talking about is how this thread started and a few of the people continue to close their ears to what is being discussed...and for the most part, you aren't one of them I'm talking about.

Fair enough.

Here's another angle for 'the atmosphere did it' guys: I located a photo last year of Ben Roethlisberger squeezing a ball to a point that it looked almost empty (during a play). Can't find it now, but I am surprised Patriot supporters haven't come up with a pile of such photos - it would certainly deflate the idea that, if anyone's doing anything, it's not limited to Brady.

I have to admit, if I had remembered that photo when deflate gate first started, I probably would have started out with a completely different mind-set, which can make a big difference.

Regardless of whether you believe the rule is stupid or that others do it, I still expect the NFL to penalize the Patriots when this is all said and done. Despite the outraged Robert Kraft demanding an apology unless “irrefutable” evidence is brought forth, that should not be and likely won’t be the level of proof employed by the league; rather a preponderance or “more probable than not” standard will be used. BTW, Kraft’s was another public presser faux pas, as the league had asked that comments be withheld during its investigation, and yet there’s defiance right out of the gate–or off the plane as it were-by the ersatz leader of Patriot Nation. Even sycophant Goodell cannot be pleased with that.

Interestingly, I had Letterman on in the background last night and his guest was Rachel Maddow, a diehard Patriots fan, who may have inadvertently done her team a disservice. I’m speaking third-hand and will defer to any more accurate accounts, but as I understand it, she spent time on her show poking fun at the whole incident and then asked one of her staffers or interns to re-create the whole 90 second bathroom scenario. She let him practice, then had him take two bags of 12 balls into the bathroom for 90 seconds to deflate as many as he could. He was successful on eight, which apparently satisfied her that it cannot be done as speculated. Now this guy is not a trained NFL equipment guy and has had at most a few hours of practice, yet he got through about 70% of the deflating, which also allowed for time removing and re-packing the balls in the bag. Personally I never thought the bathroom thing should be construed as the only factor, since the needle necessary to deflate is about the length of a man’s pinky finger and could easily be concealed in gloves or under a towel, etc. on the field. But I am curious to see if the NFL runs similar experiments with trained personnel as part of its investigation, as I was surprised that Maddow, who does not pretend to be a sports journalist or have any scientific insight and who is on record as loving the Patriots, still came somewhat close to burning her own team.

Please......Get a life. 6 Super Bowl appearances and you want to talk about footballs????? They outscored Baltimore 28-0 in the second half with brand new footballs. This is just insane....

Phil- sounds like you need some cheese with your whine...:D:D

Kevin, what if you knew without a doubt that Brady had asked an equipment manager to deflate the balls AFTER they had been approved and marked by the officials? Remember - you know, without a doubt. What option would you choose?

• punish Brady and/or Belichek
• do nothing, and the process for checking balls remains the same going forward;i.e-it's no big deal and doesn't affect the game, so in the future any qb can do this.
• no punishment, but change the rules so no one can change inflation in the future

That's easy you punish Brady with a suspension at the beginning of next season and if Belichek knew you take a first round draft pick and a second because their first round pick is basically the same as a second.

Then I ask them why would they do it when they obviously score more points with a fully inflated ball. ;)

The Colts must have gone scoreless in the second half bc they were tired from carrying the heavier ball.

Scott- absolutely punishment is in order, and severe at that. The Patriots could have beaten the Ravens using tennis balls. But that's not the point, it is still an integrity and ethics issue. The ball boy, if he did it, was told by someone to do it. The irony in all of this is that the two best teams are in the Super Bowl, IMO. Yes, Seattle pulled out a 1 in 100 miracle, but these are the two best teams in their respective conferences....

^^^i agree with Kevin

Thanks guys.

I was late checking in tonight. It's heartening to see everything copacetic and everyone generally in agreement, especially Scott and Mike! You guys were never too far apart. As Scott mentioned, we've had good some OT discussions over the years, and I've had some good ones with Mike ever since we locked horns during the 2012 WS (fueled largely on my end by alcohol and the post game mob after Pablo's 3 HRs) but ended in agreement. You guys are a couple reasons this board is awesome.

Couple quick nuggets, looks like it became "official" today, the NFL refs did not bother to log the pressure of the balls at halftime of the AFC Championship.. I knew they didn't care!... and the actual weight of the balls, under inflated or not is virtually the same.

I think before anyone is allowed an opinion in ths thread, they should at least get the teams right first. It was the Colts, not the Ravens. Just saying.


Obviously. You're just as confused as he is.

Obviously, you don't like other people to have their own opinions and why the cheap shot at Kevin and me? Sounds like you have an issue with him that runs deeper than this thread. Do us all a favor and man up a little and quit being petty...doubtful, but try.

Wasn't a cheap shot and no personal issues. You obviously didn't understand my statement. I didn't say anyone couldn't have an opinion. I said, they should know what they're talking about BEFORE having an opinion. Calling them the Ravens once is a mental mistake. Calling them the Ravens twice in two separate posts is ignorant.

So he mistakenly called the colts, the ravens...am I missing something that actually matters?

What's funny is that I remember when I read his comment and I thought to myself, they almost got beat by the ravens....but I agreed with the rest of it, so I went with it. All in all, not a big deal and not sure why you felt the need to be "that guy".

Yes, you sure are missing something. The Colts are NOT the Ravens. The Indianapolis Colts moved from Baltimore in 1984. The Baltimore Ravens came into the league in 1996. If you or Kevin can't tell the difference between the two, then watch a few more games and then make your comments. That way, it will at least look like you know what you're talking about.

Keep posting, you're just proving my point over and over.

BTW, since you mentioned "cheap shot" isn't starting a post with "Please......Get a life" a cheap shot? Or am I missing something?

Wow...miss the morning coffee or something? You are actually proving my point over and over by being a dick about something so petty. And at this point, it clearly shows that you have a problem with me, Kevin or both of us. I've never seen anyone make a big deal about someone accidentally saying the wrong team...ever. If you do, however, have a problem with me, I'd like to know so we can get to the bottom of it. I don't like to leave loose ends hanging around when we could easily resolve it like two men, not children.

Wow, an internet tough guy. Never seen one of those before.

Keep posting, you're just proving my point over and over.

Lol...tough guy? I want to talk about this underlying issue you have with me and I get a tough guy label? That's not fair, David. You should try to be sensible...you'd be surprised, it might just work in your favor! :)

What's this great point that you keep suggesting that is being made over and over? That you are incapable of accepting that someone made a simple mistake? Please share

Mike, if there is an issue between us, it's all in your head. I don't have an issue with you.

As far as calling a team by another name, we've already went over this. To do it once is a mental mistake. To do it twice is ignorance. He obviously doesn't know what he's talking about.

If I called a T206 a 1952 Topps on the main board, someone might correct me. If I do it twice, it's ignorance.

Good to hear...you don't have an issue with me. That is what I wanted to know.

I see what you are saying about the team name being mentioned wrong, twice, but he clearly had Baltimore on the mind and I believe it was an honest mistake...don't you? I think it was just a coincidence that the colts used to reside in Baltimore and those two teams just played the pats...which might have got you more excited that he misspoke one team over the other. I think it had to do with the fact that the pats just played them rather than the initial reason.

Maybe it was. But when he starts his post with "Get a life..." it's probably not going to end well. I know it wasn't directed at me, but it doesn't matter. Until that point, the thread had been cordial, even if we do have differences of opinion.

Fair enough. And you are right...starting a post like that isn't a good way to get things going, it just stirs the pot. And I apologize, because I was so caught up in the ravens/colts mistake we were talking about that I didn't realize that the "get a life" post by Kevin was something that set you off as well.

I apologize too if I offended you.

Thanks Ian - we need more posts like this.

I think anyone who can have a heated discussion with opposing views, on the internet with a complete stranger, and it ends well - should be congratulated. When it involves football, probably moreso.

I will say this about Kevin - he's a great guy, and like a lot of people here, you need to spend 30 minutes with him on the phone and you'll understand that. And David and I have beaten each other to pulp before in these discussions, and I have no problems with him either. It takes a lot of time and I think Mike is a much quicker learner than some of the rest of us.

Also very glad to hear this about the footballs and the refs - looking forward to the ESPN and NFL Channel analyses today. I really did not like the idea of not liking Brady.

Please explain the logic of that statement. Whether they logged the balls or not before the game is not determinative. They were checked and found to be within spec, unless you're calling the ref a liar. If anything, the failure to log them in helps New England. If the actual inflation of the Pats footballs was closer to 13.0 than 12.5 then the amount of deflation at halftime was even greater. Since they were not logged the Pats are given the benefit of the doubt that they started at the lower 12.5 psi. This is not the refs not caring, this is common sense--why log in the starting point when the rate of inflation is irrelevant so long as the balls are within the acceptable range? It's where they go from there that matters most.

I am truly sorry for the mishap on the teams. I have been following pro football for 40 yrs, and it was just a simple mistake. Had I continued following the thread, I would have known of the mistake and corrected it in another post. I just now saw the last several posts of the thread 10 minutes ago. The only reason why I responded to the thread in the first place was the continuous moaning and groaning of the deflated footballs. Ironically, it was from a guy from Mass. My point was simply that the Patriots would have beaten the Colts no matter what shape the footballs were in. Having said all that, the Patriots should and will be punished strictly if this all proves to be of their knowing intentions....Thanks