philliesphan
 

This could very easily be the case, as Brian and I only worked together for a few short weeks. It has been about a year since i worked at SGC and it is very possible the policies have changed. Again they are all first rate individuals at SGC and they grade the card for the card not who owns it or wants to buy it.
Please remember I was very critical of Dave when he first purchased SGC. With the direction SGC went in after he took over he proved me wrong. I then went to work there and can tell you nothing changed my opinion, that this is the best most accurate grading company out there. I have no problem calling it like I see it and I can tell you they are as honest as a company can possibly be. It was not my intention to cause SGC any harm but I was letting Rich know he had the wrong guy.

So how many cards, one wonders, are out there in the marketplace that SGC graders graded for their boss, knowing they were his cards? This situation certainly should have been avoided.

what glyn p said....."For the record I think they treated Dave's material with more scrutiny then any other submitters, and he never got the benefit if they were between grades he got the lower, and if there were any questions the card was rejected. I have nothing but praise for the individuals at SGC, they are a fine company and even finer people."


glyn has said all the right things for sgc. and most are probably true.
but that statement sounds like to me that dave has his cards graded and the graders "know" they are his!! this is alarming !!

why is dave forman still dealing cards??!!! and using his own grading co. to do so. dont know what many of you think, but i own a good amount of sgc myself, no matter what way you want to disect this and rally around sgc...."this is not good". how long has this been going on??? dave grading and selling in auctions:confused:

i may be wrong but what glyn said is an admission of what sgc has been doing, of course it was un-knowingly done by glyn and now it just has led to more questions.

I agree Marty. When I read the NY Daily Times article yesterday, I thought it was odd that Dave Forman was buying hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of cards, and consigning cards on such a large scale with Mastro. I was wondering whether any of the consigned cards were graded by SGC.

Glyn confirmed my worst fears about SGC: Not only does the principal in one of the major grading companies have cards graded by his own company, but there is also no anonymity in the grading room as far as who is submitting the cards. These revelations are disturbing to me on so many different levels.

Holy crap
 

Man you guys can really go off with assumptions all over the place.

WE HAVE NO IDEA IF DAVE EVEN BOUGHT CARDS!!!!!!

People are just assuming Dave bought cards but we don't KNOW that as a fact.

I think forming opinions without hardly any facts is foolish at best.

I think there are several issues here

1) Do the graders know who owns the cards before they grade them.

I doubt this.

2) Did Dave or someone close to him submit raw cards for grading.

I don't know the answer to this yet, perhaps the cards he sold were all graded before he became involved with SGC. Again WE DON'T KNOW.

3) Did Dave sell SGC graded cards, raw cards or what.

Again we have no idea what he sold.

4) Did Dave buy cards at all.

Again we don't know what the heck he bought, people are assuming he bought cards and in the few times I have met him and been to the SGC offices I know that his interests go beyond sports cards. I would have no problem with Dave buying a Ruth bat or other such item.

I don't know Glyn, but I would like to know who knew what. He was a grader so is he saying Dave just walked in and asked the graders to grade a pile of cards for him. I find this hard to believe.

Again I am not saying Dave is innocent of screwing up but to make assumptions about what he did or did not do and what he sold is stupid at this point.

At this point with this going to court I am not sure what else will come out but it may be some time before many of the above questions get answered.

Out of all the grading services I have used, PSA, BGS, SGC for cards, CGC for comics and AFA for toys, SGC has always had the best customer service and has been very consistent with the grades I have received.

I have no reason to doubt the service they provide and the integrity of the company as a whole.

James G

Glyn worked for SGC. It seems highly unlikely he is wrong about what he said.

well
 

Glyn (hi Glyn) can obviously answer this, and I am not sure if it matters with what is being asked, but I always thought Glyn was in customer service and not the grading dept.

James, Glyn worked for SGC, and he answered your first two questions in a post above. He said the SGC graders were actually harder on Dave's cards, not easier. How did the graders more heavily scrutinize Dave's cards, if they did not know they belonged to Dave?

There's an episode of <em>The Twilight Zone</em> ("The Monsters are due on Maple Street") in which aliens periodically turn the power on and off for only a few of the residents of a typical American neighborhood. The people, who have little information about what's going on and immediately have no explanation for what's happening, turn into a panicked mob as the accusations fly.

This board, sometimes, is that neighborhood.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NwoytBw5iIw

Wesley,

This is exactly my point, and is Glyn did work in customer service as Leon suggested then I am not sure how much involvement he would have.

Your assuming that person A brought cards into the grades and said oh these are Dave Formans cards so be harsh on them. I just don't buy it as I feel the graders stick to their guns and don't want to know who the cards belong to.

As I have said I have no facts, all you are going on is what Glyn said in a short statement and you have not asked how did Gyln know the graders knew they were Daves cards.

I don't think graders care whose cards are whose and they shouldn't grade the card for the card and not the owenr. I think they do that and that is enough for me until there are some FACTS that prove otherwise.

I am not closed minded but I am not jumping to a conclusion without any facts and I many are.

James G

Those with long memories remember back on the Full Count Board (predecessor of Net 54) and in the early days when posters who inferred that collectors who were "good old boys" or "large quantity submitters" would get preferential treatment, would get lambasted. I remember one time posting that I believed that grading companies, despite their written policies, DID know who was submitting certain cards and although some agreed with me, many were outraged at the thought that the grading companies were ever anything other than 100% impartial. Flash forward 6 years and how many of you dissenters still think the grading companies are Ivory Snow businesses? Just wondering...;)

To me this is the bottom line:

Either SGC KNEW the cards submitted were Forman's (and depending on who you believe they were either tougher on his cards or he got a "good old boy" upgrade) or they did NOT know. That's the bottom line. Sure the Prez of SGC should have avoided even the appearance of impropriety but the bottom line is did the graders know they were his cards or not. Glyn who used to work there indicates they DID (although they graded his cards tougher), others say they had no idea whose cards were whose.
That's the bottom line.

Me, I am still trying to figure out which comic book would have sold for hundreds of thousands of dollars, especially in the stagnant comic book market these days. :confused:

This is hysterical, someone says they have no facts when we have a statement from an employee of SGC with no bias as he says only favorable things. Amazing. Tell us James, what is YOUR basis for saying Glyn doesn't know what he is talking about?

Bob-My guess is that when the average guy mails in a submission to SGC the graders probably don't know whose it is. When someone brings a few high grade cards in for immediate turnaround my guess is that they sometimes do know whose cards they are.
Is there preferential treatment--who knows. Certainly not for me or you.

I concur
 

Glyn outright told us they KNEW they were grading Dave's cards. Of course he is going to say they were tougher on them. Something is not right. Maybe he was just getting cards graded and that's it. In any event, I personally feel some submissions are not anonymous. Finally, I have plenty of comic books I will sell you for hundreds of thousands of dollars.

#27 Detective Comics
 

Do you have a #27 Detective Comics (1st appearance of Batman) in high grade? If so I might have a buyer for you :)

Please see the below statement from Sean Skeffington, VP of Operations for SGC.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Everyone,

We’ve been following the comments and questions on this issue closely, and while we cannot continue to address every question in this forum, we feel compelled to clarify a few issues.

Please understand that due to the nature of the dispute between Dave Forman and Mastro Auctions, we are not at liberty to make statements regarding the issue. What is important for us to communicate is that the dispute does not involve SGC as a company, and thus we cannot make any sort of statement, other than to express our hope that the two parties are able to resolve their differences.

However, in the course of the many online discussions, some questions about perceived inconsistencies in SGC’s company policies have come to light, and in the interest of transparency and trust, we feel compelled to comment.

First, in our continuing efforts to refine and improve our internal operations, SGC established a policy prohibiting any employee from submitting cards for grading. That policy was established in the second half of 2008. Prior to that, while there was no official company policy on the matter, it was a non-issue, since the number of cards submitted by employees was minimal. We established the policy on our own, to help eliminate the potential for impropriety.

Secondly, we feel it is important to note that as the owner of SGC, Dave Forman is not involved in the day-to-day operation of the company, and has never dictated grading policy or graded any cards submitted to SGC.

Lastly, as a grading company well-known for honoring its guarantee, we want to remind everyone that SGC continues to stand behind each and every card in an SGC holder. If, at any time, you feel that one of your cards is not accurately graded for whatever reason, we will be happy to review it for you at no charge, and as you all know, we have bought back misgraded cards in the past.

We feel that it is important to note that for the last 11 years, SGC has worked very hard to earn your trust and establish itself as the most knowledgeable, skilled grading company in the hobby. We are truly appreciative of the trust you have shown us, and we continue to work hard to earn that trust, every single day. While we understand many of the concerns that have been expressed here, we also ask you to remember that SGC still boasts the same commitment to accuracy, consistency, knowledge and customer service that you have all come to expect from us.

We appreciate your patience with our response. We also appreciate your understanding that due to the nature of this situation, we are not at liberty to discuss specifics regarding the dispute between Dave Forman and Mastro. If there are any additional questions that we can answer to help restore your confidence, please do not hesitate to call our offices.

Sincerely,

Sean Skeffington
VP of Operations

Jay's probably correct IMO. For example, when the infamous N167 was purchased on eBay and subsequently graded by SGC, I'm sure they knew who had purchased the card. An N167 Ewing doesn't come in every day. I'm not implying that SGC gave any preferential treatment, just that I agree with Jay that in some instances, the owner of a card is probably known.

Sorry
 

No, sorry. My comics are of the worthless variety, but I'm more than willing to sell them for hundreds of thousands of dollars:)

a guess
 

I have to guess that SGC does know who some of the submitters of cards are, especially very rare ones, how could they possibly not? I can safely say that I don't know ANYONE, including myself, that has EVER gotten any preferential treatment with respect to a grade. SGC still has the best graders in the business, imo, and they will still get my business....not because they are a banner advertiser, but because they are the most consistent and best in the business. No doubt there have been questions raised that deserve some answers but the grading dept is as good as it gets...along with their ops dept. :)


I should add that I think my friends at Beckett do an outstanding job also......I have my fingers crossed on a JSA item they have of mine right now.....

What if a grader for any company wanted their cards graded, then they can't submit to their own company?

What would the fallout be if Foreman bought some raw cards and sent them to PSA?

I fully understand and respect the appearance of possible favoritism or impropriety but I have to assume that the graders are collectors also.

I don't have a problem with any grading company grades employee cards.....as long as the cards are graded the same as everything else submitted...not graded harder or with a closer inspection, not easier....just the same as everyone else.

Out of all of this, the most annoying item was someone's cards were graded at a different standard.

Place in the label that it was "So And So's Card from their personal collection" to be completely open if that card ever hit the open market.

Thank you for clarifying.

As long as I am playing the ass**le cynic in Jeff's absence (:))
1. If there was no issue then why change the policy?
2. Does the policy apply to family members?
3. I also note that Sean does not dispute anything Glyn said.

Thanks Sean and Brian for the clarification. I am not cynical like the East Coast guys, but here are other questions that can be raised:

1. How many cards did SGC grade on behalf of David Forman from the time he took over the company until one year ago?

2. Is there any way to identify cards graded on behalf of SGC owners or SGC personnel?

3. Did the graders know that they were scrutinizing cards that belonged to their coworkers in the next cubical?

4. Did SGC owners and SGC personnel have to fill out submittal forms and place cards in CardSaver I's?

and (to add to Wesley's list):

5) Were cards owned by Forman's brother (who is reported here to be a seller of cards) graded by SGC?
6) Did the graders know that these were his brother's cards before grading (a follow-up on Glyn's comment)?

As to the issue of the actual graders at SGC, I have (like others) disagreed on occasional grades received in the past but have always found the guys who grade to be top-notch and very cordial when I have met them at the National.

I gotta believe that when I walk up to the SGC booth at a show, fill out an invoice and give them my cards that the grader may/can see me - especially when a grader comes out and asks a question.

Anonymity is not the issue, favoritism is. One might argue that anonymity guarantees non-bias treatment, but I say that professionalism is more likely to lead to equitable grading. It comes down to trust; everything else is like living is Neverland (apologies for the MJ reference). I trust the three big grading companies.

Not sure I have any more of an issue with Dave having cards graded by his own company, SGC, than his having cards graded with PSA. My trouble is that Dave should not be dealing cards any longer. If he did submit cards to SGC I would like to believe they were graded in accordance with SGC's polices. My fear is that he was supposed to have divested his collection or at the very least stopped selling cards so it begs the question as to how far he went. Yet this clearly is not the case and not what the public was lead to believe. It is Dave's company. As I asked yesterday, what are the checks and balances that are in place? What prevents Dave from grading his own stuff?


Greg

.

.

.

.

This is what I have been trying to get out through out this thread and perhaps it was lost in the length of Sean's comments.

Dave does not impact any grading, he does not grade, therefore if you trust the graders then it is a non issue.

Peter, I am not saying I know any facts that is the problem, just because Glyn made one comment about the issue does not mean that all the facts have been presented. I assume we won't hear anything further from Glyn so as to avoid him opening up any other pandora boxes. I don't believe Glyn was doning anything else but commenting on his view of things and certainly was not trying to do harm although some may have turned it into that.

I agree there are a lot of other questions but since we don't even have the most basic facts
1) what did Dave have graded
2) did he sell cards he had graded
3) what he bought
4) what he sold

I don't see how anyone can come to the mind set that Dave and SGC did wrong.

As I said I will stand by SGC because even if a grader did happen to know a card was Dave's I don't think they would have acted any different and that is what I expect, want and pay for.

James G

Depending on the level of detail in the Complaint, we MAY know soon at least what lots Dave purchased that he didn't pay for. I doubt we will ever know what he sold, or what he had graded, or the true extent of what he bought.

To me, creating the appearance of impropriety, even if there wasn't any actual impropriety, is sin enough, particularly in this business. I am sure others will share that view and others like yourself will not, which is fine.

I've waited a day and a half to make any comment on this thread as it would most likely be perceived to be self-serving; that being said, there are a few points I'd like to make:

First, I've been representing Dave on this issue with Mastro/Legendary since March of 2009; my thoughts about Bill Mastro and Doug Allen have been pretty much consistent for at least 3 years now and are probably in line with about 90% of the people in the hobby. Of course, as Dave's lawyer I'm biased towards his position; but my point is that since becoming his attorney my position on Mastro and Doug have not changed one iota. I wish other posters' biases and motives could be as transparent. Unfortunately, the news about the lawsuit has provided the opportunity for many to take shots at Dave due to personal problems they may have with him having nothing to do with SGC or, in other instances, to support Mastro/Doug despite being either financially involved with them or otherwise a part of some of their mess over the years.

Second, the lawsuit was filed on June 25. Today is July 6 and I have yet to hear from Mastro's attorneys about the suit despite having been in touch with them since March. Dave has also not been served with a copy of the lawsuit. I learned about the lawsuit from Mike O'Keeffe who provided me with a copy of it -- it was clearly given to him by an interested party (can you guess who?). Needless to say, it is more than troubling to learn about a lawsuit from a reporter (as well as from a number of apparently hand-picked hobbyists who also alerted me) instead of from attorneys. Make from that what you will but I will say that this is a curious way to try to settle a dispute - assuming that settling the dispute was the desired goal with the lawsuit. And remember: we didn't bring a lawsuit against Mastro; we're defending it. Unless we did everything that Mastro wanted, we had no choice in the matter here; they sued Dave without warning, not the other way around.

Next, I'm not going to litigate the legal issues on this board despite the great desire here for such a show. There's no point in it. And while there are a number of “judges” here who have already pronounced their verdicts based solely on a newspaper article written by a guy who before yesterday hated cards more than he hates bin Laden, you'll excuse me if I don't feel the strong desire to make my arguments to them. Needless to say, the article hardly provides all the information required to come to any fair conclusion. And again, there are unrevealed biases here and opinions should be taken with a grain of salt -- many (but not all) of the people bashing Dave and SGC here have made clear to me their dislike for him well before any of the legal issues arose.

Finally, anyone who has any intimate dealings with SGC knows that Dave has been nowhere near the grading room for months and months and months and is not a daily presence in the running of the company. I'm not going to get into a defense of the company, however, because I'm Dave's lawyer and I otherwise don't know how the operation works there. All I can say is take a look at SGC's track record, their customer service, their product since Dave took over. You might even want to compare it to the track record for integrity that existed/exists at Mastro/Legendary. Regardless, if you have any questions, call the guys at SGC. I've submitted cards to both SGC and PSA so what do I know but I think SGC's product has been generally favored on this board and those reasons still exist regardless of Dave's problems with Mastro and Doug.

As for perceived conflicts of interest, there are real and perceived conflicts of interest all over this hobby. With SGC cards, however, the proof is in the pudding. If cards are overgraded, doesn't SGC have a track record of buying them back? (Although I don't know many people that complain of having overgraded SGC cards) The argument that suddenly even the appearance of impropriety is awful, if extended logically, would knock out every auction house and grading company in existence. In the end, you have to trust the grading of your cards...and as I've said before, call SGC up if you have any questions, they do answer their phones -- even without dogs barking in the background.

Jeff I appreciate your remarks and perspective, but with all due respect I disagree with you on appearance of conflict. For one thing overgrading is not the only potential problem with slabbing cards, and even then, it is subjective. But leaving that aside, assuming Dave does buy and sell cards, which you haven't denied I don't think, I for one don't want a grading service run by a card dealer whose grading service is grading his cards. It just raises too many questions, where basically we have to take his word (or those of his employees) that it is all on the up and up. And it may well be, but it is unnecessary.

And your statement that there are other conflicts, while perhaps true, does not excuse this one. Joe Orlando is not, to my knowlege or anyone else's, buying and selling cards.

Jeff
 

While I know you have many fascinating things to say about this case; as a lawyer who is aware of facts that we are not; I think you have the right to stay out of this thread :)

And I was out at dinner with wife and her friends last nite -- Had to go; she was very antsy after being home bound since Tuesday when her knee got scoped. Which is why I missed your show last nite. Why does ABC need that Imus guy anyway for. ;)

All I ask; is when it is legally prudent for you to do so; to post the suit (and counter-suit if there is one) with a link. :p

Regards
Rich

WOW! again, this is some crazy info. You are defending Dave, that is great. But did he win lots he hasn't paid for or not? That is the main question here I think. Why else could Mastro Inc sue him? dan.

Anyone can sue anyone at anytime.

And Mastro still isn't paying consignors... but they are certainly pointing the finger at others for all sorts of things.

Dave is still selling and buying cards on ebay, it appears.

http://feedback.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAP...ab=AllFeedback

Interesting that his grading company of choice is PSA. Who grades those Frasier DVDs?

Is he upgrading those PSA graded cards by walking down the hall?

Ugh :(

Maybe Jeff can speak & take questions at the Net54 National dinner. :D:D:D

I was hoping Doug would.

Brian
 

Since you made this statement can you please list the names here of the folks you are referring to? As far as I am aware every person that contacted me has been contacted and has had arrangements made to be paid or has been paid. I am sure there might be more out there but since you are the one posting then I would like to know. This will help them get paid quicker (which I totally agree that they should have already been paid). Thanks much

Yes but everything he seems to have sold has been in a PSA holder.

It certainly is silly to have his name clearly on that id and to be buying cards with it certainly isn't the best looking thing but that doesn't mean he has done anything wrong per sa.


James G

Got my usual , "please consign with us email today" from Legendary...aside from the really poor taste in my mouth about their trustworthiness, the email had two different spelling errors...maybe they should use some of their stolen money and pay for a spell check program.

Joshua

I think the transactions pretty clearly show he is not. He is repeatedly selling PSA-graded cards in PSA holders (ie. NOT using his "influence" to get those cards slabbed with higher SGC grades).

I don't have nearly enough facts to want to get into this debate, but if this Ebay feedback does anything for me, it encourages me.

Cheers,
Blair

The complaint filed by Mastro states that Forman amassed a staggering $805K in debt between 2006 and Aug 2008. Since Aug 2008 (the Dec 08 auction) Forman's net consignment proceeds were just over $569K according to the complaint. It does not give a complete list of the items making up the $805K in purchases nor does it identify all of the items Forman sold in auction totaling just over $569K but it does list the following 4 items:

T210 Jackson PSA Authentic (Lot 589 in the Dec 08 Auction)

T205 Cobb SGC 84 (Lot 718 in the Dec 08 Auction)

M110 Complete Set SGC graded (Lot 329 in the Dec 08 Auction)

49B Robinson SGC 98 (Lot 226 in the Dec 08 Auction)

The complaint also states that Forman had an unpaid $200K debt with Mastro Auctions in Aug 2007 at which time an agreement was made to extend him additional credit at 10% interest.

Don't know about you but if someone is unable to satisfy a debt for 200K what makes you think it is a great idea to extend the credit like to over $800K? The 10% interest was enough of an incentive? I don't buy that. There is more to this story then we are getting.

Greg

Is the complaint viewable online?

Non-Sport Fiasco
 

Just wanted to mention that the "Fraudlent" dealings go back even further.

Sometime in 2007, Mark Finn, a prominent & highly respected Non-Sport collector bought a lot from Mastro that included original artwork from the 1941 R158 Gum Inc. Uncle Sam Home Defense Set. When Mark received the lot, the most desirable high number artwork was missing.

A complaint was filed by Mark, he was banned by Mastro. The missing original artwork showed up in a subsequent Mastro auction. Mark filed a complaint with the FBI.

Check out the Nonsport Forum for the complete thread.

Who knows how many little guys were ripped off in this fashion over the years?

As a disclaimer, Mark Finn is a friend of mine - We have bought from, Sold to & Traded many cards, from each other over the years.

When will someone like Mark be made whole by Mastro or Legendary?