But Leon, aren’t we awfully early in this for the FBI to be meting out punishment already? I know some think civil lawsuits should have happened already but as another poster articulately said, these things take time.

I know I'm right. How TPAs or whomever uses the technology and methods is neither here nor there to me. There's also no reason it has to be a commercial endevor-- no need to define this issue in terms of commerce, companies and market share. It's like saying "Which company is going to own carbon dating?" No one owns carbon dating. It's a scientific method written about in textbooks, taught in physics classes and used all over the world.

Also, many authentication tools and methods are inexpensive and many people, and collectors, them. Anyone who examines their card with a $6 black light or $10 handheld microscope can attest to this. There will be scientific tools, some expensive and some not, but it's mostly about knowledge.

Also, people have to differenciate between grading and identifying altereations. Grading and grading critereon are subjective and no AI or compupter program can 'solve' that. Identying altereations on the other hand is scientific, and technology can be applied there.

I never suggested the FBI was playing mediator. I am just speculating that at the end of the day a few card doctors might be paying back some restitution, perhaps even of their own accord on the advice of counsel, but I am skeptical that any will end up serving time.

I strongly agree with this. If/when this happens, whatever upheavals the hobby has endured to date IMO will pale in comparison to the upheaval lurking when it is shown that the great majority of high grade vintage cards have been altered.

IMO those of us who traveled the show circuit in the 60's, 70's and early '80's know this to be the case, as well as those who possess the simple common sense to know that cards over a century old distributed in tobacco and candy packages and handled could not possibly have survived in nrmt-mt or better condition in anything close to the numbers that exist today.

What I will be curious to see is the legal consequence to PSA when a lot of registry people discover that the value of their holdings have been significantly reduced. I would not be surprised to see significant civil litigation against PSA predicated on their business model being an absurdity - the notion that a visual examination lasting a very short time conducted in many instances by inexperienced graders can possibly detect sophisticated card doctoring. Assuming the representations PSA were making as to the capabilities of the services it was selling are not found to have been fraudulently made, we might see a test legal case of when stupidity has reached such a level that as a matter of law it is deemed to be impossible not to have been fraudulently made.

And yet huge numbers of sophisticated collectors believed and believe it. How stupid and implausible could it really have been if that was and is the case?

When it came to any kind of sentencing I think it would certainly be a mitigating factor. If Mastro and Allen had spent the months leading up to trial trying to make people whole I think their sentencing would've gone differently. Of course I too, am no lawyer.

I guess we're talking about 2 different things, then...

Most collectors (the people feeding endless sums of money to PSA) seem to want a 3rd party to "validate" their cards. They view the self-appointed experts as "The Voice of God", and get an ego boost, when their card comes back with a highly-assigned grade (even if it's altered).

I'm guessing the use of technology (or any science for that matter) won't change that mindset.... regardless of how easy the identification techniques become. PSA won't ever admit to their mistakes... which involve multi-thousands of graded cards. So if it then becomes up to the collector to determine what is legitimate and what's not, I honestly think most of these people won't even want to know the truth... especially those who are deeply invested and in love with PSA. A pretty sad state of affairs.

IMO most people buy the slab, not the card. So we do not know what they believed. And I suspect many of those who did take the time to think about it probably assumed PSA applied methods a bit more sophisticated and time consuming then in fact they did. Then there are those overtaken by suspended disbelief -- they wanted what they were told to be true so they bought into it.

I also question how sophisticated many of these people are.

Whatever the case, when many people find they have lost large sums of money they are going to be looking for someone to blame. And I think PSA will be held to a higher standard of expertise than the customers they are selling to.

When I spoke to the FBI at the National they seemed well aware as to the limitations of the PSA business model, and I'll be curious to see if one of the results of this situation is that PSA will add some qualifying language as to the limitations of what they can detect.

EDITED to add that I am not saying litigation against PSA will be successful. And as has been noted before, people who buy the slab and not the card to some degree have made their own bed. But I would not be surprised if it gets messy and there is litigation.

Maybe more importantly, most people sell the slab not the card. Unless of course the card "appears better than its grade". ;)

I'm not sure what type of qualifying language they can use. If their business model is that they can examine a raw card and detect if it's been altered, but in practice they really do not have the ability to detect alterations, what will be their out? That if they miss the alteration entirely, they are not responsible?

That's kind of like a restaurant putting up a sign "if you eat our food, and it happens to contain poison, and you die from it, we are not responsible."

I suspect if they add something it will because law enforcement will be all over them to do it. The bottom line is that IMO there is a scandal of epic proportions taking place, and likely some people will have serious criminal exposure. The eye at the center of this storm is PSA, as it is they who are slabbing these cards. It seems counterintuitive to me that this will all end without there being any change whatsoever in how PSA conducts its business and/or PSA having legal exposure of its own.

I strongly hope you are right, but PSA's current position is that there is nothing to see here, just a minor blip on the radar screen, and if it weren't for a bunch of chronic complainers on a chatboard, this situation wouldn't even be worth mentioning.

It wouldn't surprise me if we are several years away from closure. Who knows? I doubt this is a sprint nor should it be. :)

Even as we speak, they are directing people with altered cards to their sellers and trying to duck responsibility.

So what you are saying is we have several years more of name calling, childish behavior and redundant posts about this same issue to look forward to on the boards?

I know. And I assume they are being advised by counsel.

And do you think if there were charges, prosecution, and some verdict tomorrow it would impact that much? ;)

Hahaha, that actually made me chuckle out loud!!

I think it's engrained in their corporate culture. WIWAG all over again. Only now they have the Registry and the backing of a huge number of people with huge sums invested in slabs, and huge inventories of slabs. No wonder Sloan can not even mention the scandal in his talk, and tell people with altered cards to look to their sellers not PSA in spite of the plain language of the guarantee. A few malcontents who skipped the Kool Aid stirring up trouble.

PSA’s failure to take any responsibility in grading so many bad Altered cards will ultimately be the number one factor for them going under.
Staying on the Current Course they’re on now will turn out to be a big mistake in the long run for their business. I predict this will happen.

Agreed. It's truly astounding how they've managed to pull this off for so long with no major repercussions and even more amazing, I noticed their stock price is still on the increase. Is it just a big confidence scheme with slick marketing, aggressive and slick damage control with a low-cost, minimal-skill service?

Think about this. PSA was founded in 1991 before the internet took off. Hypothetically, let's say one founded the company with the mindset that it would be next to impossible for customers on a mass scale to measure or detect the quality of your service, then the exposure to "buy back" liability would be practically non-existent. Furthermore, what budget did they set aside annually to improve the quality for detecting alterations? Fast forward 15-20 years, where massive problems have been brought to light either by admissions of doctoring or by viewing "before and after" photos of doctored cards bought and sold - all through the internet. The fact the PSA has shown no effort to fix these problems over such a long period of time is very telling in my opinion and warrants answers from PSA regarding the intent of their business model and quality of service.

The reason this has gone on for so long is something we have said and repeated many times: they have an amazing ability to mint money for their clients. And as long as they continue on that path, who is going to challenge them? Customers who make money are happy customers.

They may not be very good at grading or authenticating, but they are geniuses when it comes to making a lot of money for a lot of people. And that is the reason for their continued success.

Well said and bottom line !

Either you or Leon could fix that for you... I hear the Kool aid is better over on the CU boards, so I would suggest that for you.

Pretty much. Pay attention to the childish behavior from the top down. Leon accused someone else as being me and starting a new account in disguise. Absolute BS. Like WTF?

Pre-war cards are my passion and I'm still waiting for an apology call Leon. When the leader here can't say sorry, that's a problem. And a major one. Might be time for someone to take over this board.

Is this really still going on? Really? There has to be a therapist in Florida or DC who can help you get over this atrocity already no?

Oust Leon!!

Oh dear Steve (Jeff) Lichtman. If anyone needs a therapist you can damn well bet it's you and your "brother" don't turn it on me. You can't even get my name right.

Damn straight. I'm here with the rest of you and love this old school baseball shit. Honestly having low level tardwad whose brother represented El Chapo coming after me ain't cool. Nor should it be allowed here. Beyond insulting.

Rachel should be showing up aaaaaaaany minute

Really dude?

Probably because you're Rachel. I don't know who the hell she is and I've been a member here for many years. The second you posted that I was ousted from net54. I was straight up blocked and prevented from accessing the site. Bizarre that it happened right after you posted. Hmmm.

Steven please stop controlling the site.

I’ve always considered myself a high level tardwad and don’t worry, I am not coming after you.;)

Hi.

Ummm, could you two please leave me out of your little quarrel or whatever you've got going on?

It seems this comment is applicable to a few topics, haha.






Sent from my Nexus 6P using Tapatalk

Compare old PSA article to recent article...notice the difference?
 

If this has been posted before, my apologies.

There was a PSA article published in 2004 by Joe Orlando entitled "Whack Jobs". Not surprisingly, PSA deleted this from their website very recently. In the article Orlando states the following (my bold and underlined letters for emphasis):

Taking My Hacks: Whack Jobs – The Issue of Card Trimming

Joe Orlando - January 20, 2004

Trimming. To card collectors around the globe, this is treated like a four-letter word -- the really bad kind. No, I am not talking about what should be done to my Aunt Gertrude's mustache or to the back of one of my best friends (just kidding, I don't have an Aunt Gertrude). I am talking about card doctoring.

What is trimming exactly?

Well, in a nutshell, it's what some people do in order to enhance the edges or corners on a card. This, in turn, will enhance the overall grade of the card. With the prices realized for ultra high-end cards, it's no wonder that some people lower themselves to try this. These guys smell money like a Great White smells blood.

Back in the day, trimming was a bit more crude. Despite what many would consider obvious today, the old school brand of trimming did work for a while before the advent of grading. I can still remember seeing these severely whacked cards at card shows and commenting to a dealer, "Are there such things as 1954 Topps minis?" After PSA really caught on by the mid-1990s, many of the more prominent card doctors vanished.

Today, there are those who are still trying it. Some of them are butchers and some of them are master artists, but it doesn't, in any way, change the approach of PSA graders. The tools have changed in some cases and the skill level of the whackers has heightened but so has the awareness of our experts -- that's what they are paid to do -- and that's why people have so much faith in the PSA process.

The biggest point of confusion with trimming comes when a collector notices a card that is slightly undersized -- even in the PSA holder. I hear the cries, "That card looks small, it must be trimmed -- trimmed I say!" Nothing could be further from the truth. Is size one factor that may tip off a grader that a card could be altered? Of course -- but size alone, in this case, does not matter.

I can remember opening vending cases from the early 1970s where the cards came in a variety of sizes. Pre-war cards, especially, were cut very inconsistently. To most, the size differences are subtle but when placed in a holder, the card's size is more apparent. My point here is simple. Cards can come in different sizes straight from the factory -- straight out of the pack -- straight from a vending case. Experienced hobbyists know this but many do not.

There are more important questions when attempting to spot trimming.

Do the corners flare out or dive in unnaturally?
Is there solid consistency to the stock and/or grain of the card?
Is the cut consistent with the year or issue?
Is the card cut from a sheet?
Do the edges possess an unorthodox waviness?
These factors, amongst other things, enter into the mind of each grader as a card is evaluated and graded. Does the size matter too? Sure it does, but that is not the most important factor that a grader considers. Technically, you could have an oversized card that is trimmed or a severely undersized card that is unaltered. These are extreme cases but actually plausible scenarios.

Just as in the everyday world of criminal justice, it's up to the authorities to keep up with or stay a step ahead of the criminals in order to prevent crime and catch them. As the world's sportscard grading authority, we take the same approach and will accept nothing less from our staff.

Dead link: https://www.psacard.com/…/taking-my-...ck-jobs-issue-

Captured link:https://www.facebook.com/SportsCardR...6614815279007/





Most recently Orlando published this article:

Taking My Hacks
A Collectors Universe Retrospective
Joe Orlando

In June of this year, Collectors Universe reached a major milestone. PCGS, our coin division, and PSA combined for 75 million total items certified since inception. After a lot of hard work put in by a host of different people, early struggles to gain acceptance and through many ups and downs in the market, the company eclipsed this truly remarkable number recently.

In addition to being three quarters of the way to 100 million, this summer marks my 20th year at the company. In fact, August makes it 20 years exactly. It seems like yesterday that I was just starting out, fresh out of school and taking a chance by working in a hobby I had loved since childhood. I am fortunate to work for a company I have believed in since I was a customer in the early 1990s.

After passing this recent milestone and approaching my 20-year anniversary, it seemed fitting to reflect on my experience and share it with you.

When I first came upon PSA and Collectors Universe, I didn't become a supporter because I thought the system was perfect or because I agreed with every grade I saw. In fact, I can remember writing a letter to PSA, sharing my concerns about grading at the time. I became a supporter because it was clear the market was so much better with third-party authentication and grading than without it.

Today, I'm the president and CEO of PSA's parent company and I don't agree with every card, autograph or bat grade issued ... and that's OK. As a collector, I don't have to. Why? Because I don't have to buy it. We have choices, which is part of what makes collecting so much fun. As an individual, I am entitled to an opinion too and it's OK if my personal standard differs from a third-party service. Their job isn't to confirm my opinion; it's to render their own.

Like most other industries, ours contains a fraction of people who choose to do nothing more than complain about how third-party systems are imperfect, instead of offering feasible or logical ways of making it better. Their expectation of human-based opinion services is simply unattainable. There are realities and limitations to what any third-party service can do.

If it were up to them, there would be no umpires in baseball either, because these men don't get every ball and strike call correct. Card and coin graders, like umpires, must make decisions repeatedly in a relatively short period of time. They do the best job they can, but like all people, they are not perfect. They can only judge what they see in front of them and interpret what their eyes are observing. Grading is not conducted in a science lab. It is simply humans looking at collectibles.

The train left the station a long time ago. You can choose to get on board and take the ride, which can occasionally get bumpy along the way, or get left behind with delusions that somehow returning to the Wild West of the 1980s is better than what collectors have today. If you prefer to collect raw cards, that's OK. There are many ways to enjoy our wonderful hobby.

In the meantime, the beat goes on. After 20 years at the company and a lifetime in this hobby, there are a few things I know. There will always be challenges that our hobby will have to face and, unfortunately, there will also be those who choose to spread fear and ignorance. For those of us who love the hobby, there will always be opportunities to improve it by engaging in civil discourse.

More importantly, third-party authentication and grading is here to stay. It makes the hobby better, even though no system will ever be perfect.

Never get cheated,

Joe Orlando

Joe Orlando
President & CEO
Collectors Universe, Inc.

https://www.psacard.com/articles/art...-retrospective

See the difference?

Thanks very much for that Dan.

Another slap in the face to the collecting community.

PSA's clients have every right to expect as close to perfection as possible. Saying we're human and we can never get it right every time does not even consider the frequency that altered cards are being slabbed. Many collectors send them thousands of dollars to have their cards reviewed, and spend a whole lot more than that to purchase high end ones. And they don't even have the decency to admit that they need to do a whole lot better. What a dreadful response.

I could go on and on but I won't.

My pleasure Steven!

The best part which you didn't highlight was the invitation to civil discourse. As in, poof?

The above most recent statements from Orlando only embolden the card doctors to continue their acts. They openly set up or walk the floor of every major show with no shame.

Dan, really great post. Hint, hint, hint:

I really think it is worthy of its own new thread, with a sexy and catchy title (like PSA removes old damning articles, or something), so the topic gets more eyeballs (including maybe press), and is not lost in a longer, older thread people may no longer follow.

Just my opinion...

Ouch Peter! You're right! How did I miss that zinger!?!?

Done.

we can only hope:D:D:D and more POps