You have been unable to show where we said what you have charged we said, that PWCC is the sole bad actor or is responsible for most bad things in hobby land.

We have shown exactly where you have said what you are now denying to have said.

Got any evidence to back up any of these hot takes you keep walking back, denying, or changing?

I think REA's full day extension was a bullshit move. I have never placed a bid with REA.

Can anyone on the other side of this debate explain to me how that means we should not criticize PWCC's fraud ring in a thread specifically about PWCC?

Is extending an auction after system problems in the same realm as running a fraud ring for years? If so, what is the coherent, logical argument for this?

You have done none of that. We have shown lol.

Please answer this question then to cut through it all and to put an end to the back and forth. What IS your take on PWCC relative to other hobby players who have been mentioned here such as REA and I believe Goldin and Mastro?

You declined to show where Peter or I claimed this. I have asked you to back it up like a dozen times and you have refused. Where did either of us say that PWCC is the sole bad actor. Everyone can read the transcript...... Are you seriously this dumb?

He is reminding me of Yogi, "I never said half the things I said," lol. But let's see if he now gives a direct answer stating his opinion.

My take is in the eyes of some of you pwcc can do no right and rea and others can do no wrong. You jump on pwcc regularly and for whatever reason gave rea a free pass. Things aren’t so black and white. Also, childish posts. For someone who takes pride in not being on Facebook you’d fit in well there.

Nice evasion. I should have known. I'm done with this nonsense. Have a good night.

Looks like it's a no :)

This is a thread about PWCC. Why would I dump on REA (you refuse to even say what I'm supposed to be critical of, I don't see REA running a fraud ring) instead in a thread specifically about PWCC?

This is the stupidest sequence of shitposts I've read in awhile.

Haha I gave you my exact take. Nicely done with the oh I’m over this. You and whoever the other gent is can rant about pwcc together.

Yeah I agree you have contributed to a bunch of shitposts.

You refused to answer his very direct, one sentence question. Just as you've refused to answer any of mine, all while casting aspersions on a group of people here for being hypocritical (how is a mystery, as you still absolutely refuse to say what exactly REA is even guilty of at all) for criticizing PWCC's fraud ring.

I have made a single public comment on REA, ever. In this post, and it is negative.

At least I've said a logical, coherent take on the subject, while you consistently refuse to do so. The shills used to be a lot better.

The WWII thing was because of the nature of the moral dilemma question. You said the guy fixing the toilets on the Death Star was guilty, PERIOD. So, I merely asked does that hold true for someone in a WWII prison camp situation. I could have just as easily asked a similar type question about the crap going on in the Ukraine, but thought it best to stay away from current events. Also your example is imaginary, so most people will generally dismiss and blow something like that off. But inject some real world situations and circumstances into the context, and suddenly people sit up and take notice.

And I fully understand the idea of nuance and context. I was getting into it with others in the thread about best ever lefty pitcher of all-time, and kept trying to get them to realize that they were refusing to look at context and nuance and basically everyone from the past was crap, and wouldn't be very good at all in the modern game. But when I kept trying to say they need to take these modern players back and look at them in the context of earlier eras, there was no guarantee all these modern players would be able to play and function anywhere near as well as the players from back then. They didn't want to hear it and ignored it. Didn't fit their narrative and what they want to believe, and their statistics (which don't always properly adjust for differences and nuances in the game and different eras).

I brought up the other WWII reference to do just that, change the context to something everyone would understand. You're uncomfortable with a real-world scenario though? Fine. Go back to your Star Wars scenario. What if the plumber was threatened with physical harm if he didn't fix the toilets, is he still guilty? And remember, YOUR initial statement was he was guilty, he was helping the Death Star operate. You never said anything about context. Or what about if the guards on the Death Star threatened to kill him if he didn't do as he was told, or even worse, they had his innocent young children as hostages and threatened to harm them if he didn't do as told. So where do you draw the line and change your answer to he's not guilty, or do you stick by your original statement that he's guilty.

Now, go back to my questions about all the other parties doing work for or with PWCC, like their bank, the postal service, office supply company, receptionist, and so on. Funny how you ignored any response to that part of my questions before. Your Star Wars example clearly shows you feel anyone working with PWCC is guilty like they are of contributing to fraud in the hobby. So, you come out and apparently only attacked CSG and demanded everyone stop doing any business with them, so as to ultimately punish PWCC, right? If so, I get it. You and many others are mad at PWCC for allegedly perpetrating and enabling fraud in the hobby, and are mad because it doesn't look like the FBI investigation is going anywhere, so no one looks to be going to jail, and PWCC doesn't look to be going out of business anytime soon. So instead, you accuse and attack CSG for enabling PWCC by agreeing to accept submissions from them. You're hoping that CSG changes their mind and stops doing business with PWCC, which causes PWCC to lose more business, and eventually contributes to pushing PWCC totally out of business. Now isn't that the actual final goal you're all striving for, to get PWCC out of business?

Assuming that's right, which I'm pretty confident it is, I'll ask again, so why are you only going after CSG who hasn't really done much of anything with PWCC yet? PWCC seemed to be surviving quite well before this CSG deal was announced. I had previously asked, and as usual got no response, as to whether or not anyone knew for a fact if any of the other TPGs (PSA, SCG, Beckett) officially stopped accepting any and all submissions from or through PWCC. So, are any TPGs, other than CSG, still taking submissions from or through PWCC? And if they still are, which I'm guessing is the case, then just going after CSG isn't going to do crap to ultimately help shut down PWCC. And that goes for all the other businesses doing anything with PWCC that I was asking about. Those are the people and businesses who have been doing work with and for PWCC all along. Attacking and boycotting them would be much more appropriate and effective in working to get PWCC shut down than going after CSG alone likely ever will.

And if the other TPGs are all still doing business with PWCC, it is them you should have already been boycotting all along. This looks more and more like just another general bitch session where you're all just lazy and going after the most easy and accessible target, which is CSG, instead of putting your money where your mouths are and going after PWCC's other vendors, associates, and personnel. And that includes things like buying any graded cards from any TPG that has/is doing business with PWCC. Even if you aren't directly submitting cards to one of the TPGs, buying one of their graded cards helps supports the notion that graded cards bring more money when sold, and thus prompts other people to consider sending even more submissions to that TPG, which helps keep that TPG in business to continue helping and enabling PWCC in their business.

And maybe worst of all, here's a chance for a new TPG to possibly shake things up for the better and bring some competition and change to the other TPGs. Been hearing all the bitching and moaning about TPGs for years now. But instead of trying to see if CSG can bring some positive change to the TPG ranks, you all want to bash and boycott them for trying to get their business going so as to be in a position to hopefully force the other TPGs to improve their own services and compete more for your business. Instead, you jugheads go after the new company, and don't really bother to do anything against the TPGs that did run through and grade and slab all those altered cards through PWCC. The other TPGs besides CSG, if they were wasting their time, and reading these kinds of threads, would probably be laughing their asses off at how stupid we are because we're actually looking to get rid of their competition for them apparently, while ultimately helping to improve their own positions and hold on the market, without them really doing anything to improve their services or prices. I understand that no one on here likes PWCC, but whether CSG works with them going forward or not has probably almost 0% impact on whether they continue in business or not. And since none of you bitchers and moaners are really going to do anything about going after PWCC and all the others that have been supporting and enabling them all along before CSG came along, why don't you just suck it up and wait to see if CSG can do something positive in the TPG area. From where I'm sitting, the worst case scenario is that nothing really changes with CSG in this position.

I actually laughed out loud when I read the stupid insinuations from some in earlier posts that I was possibly a shill for PWCC and/or CSG. Nothing could ever be further from the truth. But in retrospect, I'm beginning to wonder if these posters aren't actually devious shills themselves, covertly acting on behalf of the incumbent TPGs and attempting to manipulate others to getting rid of their competition for them.

Nailed it. I'm a shill for PSA and/or SGC. I hate them and don't own a single graded card (every one is cracked out) as I've posted for years, but I'm shilling for them.

You've spent the length of War and Peace bitching about a single line joke about PWCC's fraud ring. Large amounts of people tend to think less of people who choose to associate themselves with massive fraudsters. I don't see how this is such a shock to you. How many novels can be written complaining about this fact...

This is kind of irrelevant in a discussion of CSG and PWCC but, yes, people should be saying that about the other TPGs as well.

This, of course, is nonsense.

There is a difference between a cleaning company, who is likely unaware of the criminal activities of PWCC and a grading company who is absolutely aware of them.

See above.

You're being silly, as I'm sure you know. There is quite obviously a difference between working for PWCC not knowing their activities and working with them when you're fully aware of them AND you're assisting in those activities by grading cards.

Your judgment is suspect.

Also, thanks :)

It's a little disingenuous to complain about "juvenile trolls" and sarcastic replies when you yourself post obviously non-serious replies about cleaning people being criminals.

CSG could have implemented the flat rate grading outside of a relationship with PWCC. This certainly seems like a positive step for the grading industry. While I certainly understand why companies haven't done it before (besides the obvious increased revenue, there are greater risks and possible costs associated with grading more expensive cards), the inherent conflict of interest has always bothered me. But correcting that conflict didn't necessitate getting into business with PWCC. And getting into business with PWCC kinda offsets any positive things that CSG might be doing.

Flat rate grading and ease of submission = good moves

Partnership with PWCC = bad move

I can see why they did it, as it will result in many more graded cards residing in CSG slabs (instigating what they hope will be increased awareness and ultimately greater market acceptance).

They obviously picked an awful company to partner with in terms of ethics. But if the last 3 years had revealed anything, it’s that the vast majority of collectors don’t know about and/or care about the alteration scandal.

So this move will likely help with CSG’s objective to grow market share. Also note that well over 90% of the proven altered cards sold by PWCC resided in PSA Holders. Seems like that fact did nothing at all to dissuade collectors from using or buying PSA product. In that regard, I can understand why Bob calls out hypocrisy in many of the subsequent posts.

https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...ize/Smails.jpg

Don't you people have lives?

No.

I've used PWCC for the past few years with no issues whatsoever. It's a nice alternative to store my high value cards instead of putting them in a bank vault plus the tax break of having them shipped to Oregon. I can look at my collection with high res pictures anytime on my phone or computer. Every auction house including ebay have shill bidding going on, it's impossible to avoid completely. PWCC may of had it going on more so than others but they took steps to improve with the new platform. PWCC fixed price cards are high but with their auctions I can sometimes get good deals on cards. Just my two cents on PWCC, I know a lot here feel strongly against them.

A mixed collection of thoughts reading all this. presented in no particular order.

IF I was starting a grading/authenticating company...
1) Getting a bunch of cards done quickly to build enough population to make a registry meaningful would be important.

2) While partnering with a sketchy dealer might be bad PR, my approach might be "Send me your best fakes, I'll find them"
--------------------------

As far as the sketchy dealer, in this case PWCC.
I may not recall the details right, but I had the impression they didn't do their own altering?
But its certain they at a minimum tolerated it and probably encouraged it. And probably helped by making the submissions to PSA.

I also believe PSA was in on it. It's hard to believe everyone there was so utterly incompetent. Expecting some flames for that, but I've said that for a long time now.

If those two things don't deserve regular criticism then nothing in the hobby does.

Yes, every place has it's scandals and failures. The difference is in how large and prevalent they are, and how they get handled. One authenticator in a different hobby had a problem when an employee with access to the database would change bad certificates to good for his friends before they got printed. Huge problem, like if PSA graded cards A, and someone went in and made all those into 8s and 9s.
They fired and charged the person responsible, and changed their process and access to the database, from pretty much all employees to only a few.

-------------------
The auction thing

I forget who said running an auction with bad software shouldn't happen, but .....Really?!
Pretty much all software fails, some of it more often than others. And the companies can only try to predict how much traffic they will have and arrange enough bandwidth to cover it. Having that constantly available is very expensive. So most companies run some basic level then buy more for times they expect a surge.

Was the ending and it's delays handled well? Maybe maybe not. I'd have to know what the discussion was with tech support, and we'll never get that.

I get that people are mad about not winning stuff, or paying more. But the opposite way of handling a tech problem during an auction is way worse.
One auction I placed internet bids for maybe 10 items. All pretty high bids. With the family budget that meant discussions and being in a bit of a spot if I won them all. Nothing we couldn't handle, but the boss would have required stuff being sold to offset the new stuff.
Anyway, all those items were within the same rough number range. Maybe 75 lots between the first and last?
Checked the next day, and it looked like they all went cheap!
No invoice...
Three days later I asked and was told I didn't win anything?? They'd had a half hour or so internet outage and couldn't access the online bids. So... they just carried on.
Thanks Copake Auction for wasting my time and costing your consignors a bundle. All because you couldn't do something simple like write down the internet bids.

The Blowout gentlemen traced the sales histories of the cards they outed, and tied many of them to being bought by PWCC untrimmed, then trimmed (usually by Moser, or presumably by Moser from the submission records and aerials that connect them to other known Moser trim cards), and sold in a slab via PWCC. It appears they were not turning a blind eye or even just quietly encouraging it, but actually fully complicit in the trimming itself.

Chris,

I'm just responding to what others have said on here, who were quite emphatic about ANYONE working for or with someone who is a known criminal (to their thinking) also being guilty for associating and enabling the criminals to do and get away with what they do. One idea posed was regarding a plumber fixing toilets. So, when I post something intentionally idiotic in response about a criminal's bank or their cleaning company also being guilty by association then, it is not being juvenile, just expanding on a similar type of example they made, to draw out the original parties saying everyone's guilty and hopefully make them realize they over spoke and were probably wrong in what they originally said. And based on past experience, many parties usually don't directly respond so they have to admit their error or ignorance of the facts or situation, or they try to respond in some way to blow it off or twist your words so they can get out of it.

And then as a result, invariably a different group will see something you posted in response to drawing out one party, and take you to task about what you're asking that was really directed at someone else. For example, instead of saying something about or to me for asking about a criminal's bank or cleaning company, why isn't that other party instead going back to the original party accusing a plumber of now being guilty, and more appropriately saying something to/about them? I was merely calling the originally poster out for saying the plumber is guilty, to see if in fact they will admit they may not always be right given differing facts and circumstances. But as I already said, invariably they usually don't seem to directly respond, or deflect you in some way to not ever admit they could have been wrong. Nor willingly admit they may just be drawing the line in different places at differing times so as to always support their own pre-conceived notions and narrative, and rarely it seems be opened-minded enough to listen to new information, evidence, and points of view.

And then of course, when I type a long response out to try and fully address all the points and questions directed at me, and to be as clear and thorough in such responses as possible so my words can't be twisted and used against me, an entirely different group jumps in to comment about my long posts.

It doesn't seem to matter what one says on here, there invariably seems to be some group that will jump in and criticize you regardless of what you say. And in trying to respond and defend yourself from one group, don't be surprised if you then get trolled for an entirely different set of reasons by others.

As for the "juvenile trolls" comment, Chris please tell me what you're supposed to say and do then when you specifically post and more or less ask for others to refrain from making more sarcastic and joking comments so the thread can hopefully go in a serious and civil direction. And then the very next post is some supposed adult doing just what you'd asked them to not do. The total lack of understanding and civility, and disrespect directed towards a fellow board member in such a situation is uncalled for. And don't just say ignore them, because by not at least calling them out for what they've done, you let them think what they are doing is acceptable and proper, and they continue doing it with everyone else as well. I'm all for sarcasm and jokes as much as the next person, in the right context, situation, and place. And none those are right after you've been asked not to make such remarks and comments. That smacks of very sophomoric and juvenile thinking and actions to me. And even more so juvenile is that when you do call such a party out for it, their defense is something like, so what, I only did it once. And then they turn around and call you juvenile for having the gall to point out to them what they did. Wow!

And I still think you are a great guy and asset to the forum.

Good lord. A week and 30 paragraphs of bitching later and a one line joke about PWCC’s fraud is still living rent free in your head. Get over it…

Looks like I understated their involvement. I thought I recalled something like that, but wasn't certain.

Yeah, it is. You might be trying to make a point but, really, you're just joining in.

Ignoring is definitely the right answer. Especially on the internet, asking people to not be sarcastic is essentially the same as asking to BE sarcastic. That's just how it is. Best to ignore and move on. Not everything needs to be "called out".

Thanks, I appreciate it. And same back to you.

Why, because you don't like being called out for acting like a child, refuse to admit what you did was disrespectful to someone asking you not to do it, and feel entitled to say and do what you want, have no remorse, and instead try to turn the situation against the party calling you out?

if nothing else, maybe you'll not do something similar to another person on this forum in the future.

Then how can you make a point, and show it is related to something said by another? I was merely using different examples of what another person said to extrapolate on their point, to see if they or others would then have a different answer in different circumstances. And also, how can the assumption be made that no one else at the bank, cleaning company, etc. didn't know about PWCC issues? Especially in the case of a possible receptionist that may have been working at PWCC, that I brought up. She would have answered the phones at PWCC, so I would think if she existed that she would have heard and seen just about everything they were getting accused of. But oddly, nobody really said if they thought she would or wouldn't really be guilty, in their thinking, because she was possibly working at PWCC and helped them to do what they did/do. And remember, this was in response to someone else saying a plumber would be guilty in another scenario. So, my question was, if the plumber is guilty in there's and possibly other people's minds, then shouldn't a receptionist at PWCC be also? And if they thought she was guilty, then what about their bank, cleaning company, and so on? I was merely trying to find out where people draw the line, it actually wasn't a ridiculous or sarcastic comment/question. At least that was not my intent.


Ignoring someone is possibly the right answer in some situations, but then if all we ever do is continue to let some self-entitled person keep getting away with things, they'll never stop or change the way they think and act. Just look at how things are/were in the real world today and in history when others didn't finally put their feet down and say "no more" to some for what they do or say. If someone wants to say something like this isn't worth it, well maybe it should be, so people learn a lesson and start treating others, not necessarily just me, a little bit better. Someone acting badly will usually continue doing so until they get called out, sad to say.


And right back at you as well on the last point! LOL Have a good one.

Meanwhile look where CSG is…

They had a 4% increase and hopefully teaming up with an industry leader like PWCC will make that number much larger.

no emoji?

No blue font either. I seriously gave up on caring about complete morons getting screwed by scammers when they line up to get screwed. GO PWCC.

Is Beckett overwhelming modern cards at this point?

Garbage + Garbage equals more Garbage

That’s how I look at CSG and PWCC teaming up.

It was much nicer when it was PWCC and PSA teaming up for all those beautiful high grade cards. I guess all great tings don't last forever.:(

One of the BODA guys is back to outing cards. Some glorious Goudeys on there the past couple of days.

Why are you so triggered over a small joke about a known fraud ring, in a thread about that fraud ring? I doubt even Brent would be throwing a tantrum a week later still. Adjust your dosage...

Link ?

LOL

Sent from my SM-G955U using Tapatalk

Thanks Petter...sadly that guy has been doing this for a long while... diamond stars and goudey's ugh

Remember, before and after pics are not evidence!! But yes, I was surprised when Dennis became the subject of a thread.

All I can say is all the information is out there for people to educate themselves it's up to them what they decided to buy.

Adjust your dosage? Pretty offensive comment.