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-   -   the list (of criminals) is revealed (http://www.net54baseball.com/showthread.php?t=217245)

asoriano 01-28-2016 04:26 PM
Can't make this stuff up...
 
...you gotta love this dirty hobby.

Den*nis O*Brien 01-28-2016 04:27 PM
Reluctant To Accept...
 
That Mrs. Steinbach knowingly participated in this "Low Rent" endeavor. And I wonder who this douche Les Perline is that is so frequently associated with her bidding. I certainly could be naive or confused but I've had a few conversations with Henny and her deceased husband Don and these revelations don't seem to match up with those folks. Could it be a stretch to think that "Higher Up's" could have exploited her account?
What about the CPA engaging in this ongoing horror show? They are held to a very high ethical standard in their profession. I assumed that would carry over to one's personal life. I was, in other years, a bidder/winner on 3 lots and most likely got nicked.

Peter_Spaeth 01-28-2016 04:27 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by buymycards (Post 1496950)
Peter, the only reason that no one was "run up" is because it happened that there were no bidders. If there had been bidders, you would have run them up.
As I thought of it, if Ron had not consigned the set at all, or if there had been a reserve or an opening bid at the reserve level, nobody could have won it for less than one bid above mine anyhow. So your hypothetical is not real, as I see it. But as I said, I do understand there are other ways to look at it.

Vintagefun 01-28-2016 04:29 PM
CU Thread...Poof. Not sure why. Disappointing.

ALR-bishop 01-28-2016 04:31 PM
Gone...
 
....in two shakes of a lamb's tail

Jeff1970Red 01-28-2016 04:31 PM
There is no gray area...you attempted to help a friend at the expense of others. Own it and move on.

1952boyntoncollector 01-28-2016 04:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ALR-bishop (Post 1496961)
....in two shakes of a lamb's tail
nah was more than 5 nanoseconds

Peter_Spaeth 01-28-2016 04:34 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff1970Red (Post 1496962)
There is no gray area...you attempted to help a friend at the expense of others. Own it and move on.
You are certainly entitled to your opinion, and I have owned it, unlike anyone else so far who is on that list. I disagree with your opinion, as I see it this was not at anyone else's expense, please see my response to Rick.

1952boyntoncollector 01-28-2016 04:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1496967)
You are certainly entitled to your opinion, and I have owned it, unlike anyone else so far who is on that list. I disagree with your opinion, as I see it this was not at anyone else's expense, please see my response to Rick.
yeah I agree he has owned it...it over now...we can take the pitchforks to the other villages now. (the other guys on the list)....there may be frankenstein out there to grab but peter would barely be a reprint of part of a shoelace on Frankenstein,, if that..

Bruinsfan94 01-28-2016 04:36 PM
Yea I'm not seeing any gray area. Should just admit you made a mistake and move on. Everyone does something they regret once in a while.

Buythatcard 01-28-2016 04:39 PM
This list just shows 2007-2008. Can you imagine what the list would look like if it included all the years that Mastro was in business? You know that it doesn't end with Mastro. I am sure that this is still going on within many AH's today. I am not saying that the AH are involved but there must be shilling done by individuals that have a connection with the consignor.

I have won 21 items from Mastro between 2005-2009 for a total of $34,000. The list shows that I was shilled only once in 2007 on a lot of 38 Colgan Chips. It makes me wonder how many other times they shilled me.

Stonepony 01-28-2016 04:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff1970Red (Post 1496962)
There is no gray area...you attempted to help a friend at the expense of others. Own it and move on.
Per forum rules, your name please

1952boyntoncollector 01-28-2016 04:43 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Buythatcard (Post 1496972)
This list just shows 2007-2008. Can you imagine what the list would look like if it included all the years that Mastro was in business? You know that it doesn't end with Mastro. I am sure that this is still going on within many AH's today. I am not saying that the AH are involved but there must be shilling done by individuals that have a connection with the consignor.

I have won 21 items from Mastro between 2005-2009 for a total of $34,000. The list shows that I was shilled only once in 2007 on a lot of 38 Colgan Chips. It makes me wonder how many other times they shilled me.
theres also the issue the other way....maybe if you not bid that top bid..someone else was prepared to bid the exact amount as you in that bidding slot so they didn't bid it because you already beat them there.....hence they would of been the underbidder as well to fill up all those shill bids up to your winning bidding slot......just saying its not like if all the shill bidders disappeared the lot would of been won every time at the amount the apparent 'winning bid' the victim was going to pay free of shilling....basically whatever the amount they calculated the victims lost...the real amount would of been lower..but yeah I know its like I a thief saying he stole 3,000 and not 5,000 that the homeowner claims was stolen (and told the insurance company)


By the way when is someone going to post a picture with a bunch of people holding pitchforks with something funny stated on it.....you net54 guys are good at that stuff

Leon 01-28-2016 04:58 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff1970Red (Post 1496962)
There is no gray area...you attempted to help a friend at the expense of others. Own it and move on.
For the moment I am not saying anything except that your full name, and everyone posting in this thread who makes any comment per the rules, needs to put their name in their post (if not easily found by your sig line etc)....per the rule in bold letters at the top of every page. It's not that important though. If anyone doesn't want their full name in their post then they can edit their comments out. Otherwise I will be putting names in posts per the rules at my leisure :) .......thanks to all

Exhibitman 01-28-2016 04:59 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonepony (Post 1496857)
Could you please walk me through how you came to the conclusion that this is "clearly and instance where Mastro exploited a winner's max bid"? What do you base that on? I don't see the logic....at all .
Sure. It is phantom bidding, exactly the same concept as the Broadway Rick's Strike Zone scam on eBay several years ago: the auction operator runs up a top bidder on an item by a few bid increments. The bidder thinks he won the item for say $100 when in reality it should have closed at $70. The winner wasn't competing against anyone, he was just charged a couple of bid increments above where his bid should have been by a dishonest auctioneer.

Joshchisox08 01-28-2016 05:01 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1952boyntoncollector (Post 1496900)
any of those guys regularly post on net54 in the past month or so
Was that a question? I'm curious myself.

AGuinness 01-28-2016 05:07 PM
Garth Guibord

Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1496943)
It worked out exactly the same as if there had been a reserve, or higher opening bid. No victim.
Actually, no. When a reserve is included, the bidders are aware of it. In this case, it's clearly deceptive. It's doesn't take a degree in ethics to see that.

Not to mention the data point each shill auction, including that one, provides the industry, but is also deceptive.

I would hope people would be smart and decent enough that when they engage with somebody with shady practices, in this case an auction house who doesn't provide a specific service but encourages a deceptive alternative, they would simply walk away and find a more respectable auction house. Not offering a reserve, but suggesting this type of bidding as a proxy is a big red flag.

Jeff1970Red 01-28-2016 05:07 PM
The fact is there was never any intention to purchase the lot.

My opinion is that this was not the first time this occurred.

What I ask is to stop the BS gray area talk, no excuses, the same conversation I have with my kids and myself, daily.

No pitchfork just advice.

Jeff D'Errico

xplainer 01-28-2016 05:12 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff1970Red (Post 1496962)
There is no gray area...you attempted to help a friend at the expense of others. Own it and move on.
He did.

I'm not a big baller in the card world, but I do follow the story.

Peter, I disagree 100% of what you did. But you did step up and tell your story. I do applaud your for that. Thanks.

Exhibitman 01-28-2016 05:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1496943)
My name appears on the list of "shill bidders" on one transaction where my friend, Ron Goldberg, was the consignor. I don't view myself as a shill bidder, nor do I believe Ron did anything inappropriate. I have no doubt that some of you will disagree, and candidly I have shared this with a few people I respect a lot and they come out different ways. In any event, these are the facts.

In 2007, Ron had a valuable but relatively low demand oddball set (one of the Red Men sets). At some point he was talking to Doug and Doug asked if he would consider consigning the set. Ron said that he would but that because it was an oddball set, he was reluctant to do so unless a reserve could be placed on the auction, particularly since one of Ron's lots had sold well below his expectations in a previous auction. Doug said that he would not place a formal reserve, but instructed Ron that he could achieve the same result if he had a friend bid the reserve amount. Doug insisted, however, that if the friend won the auction, Ron would have to pay the buyer's premium.

Ron then asked me if I would bid for him. After thinking it over, I agreed. My thinking at the time was that Ron was not going to consign the set anyhow without a de facto reserve (so that there really was no scenario of a no reserve auction where someone could have won the set for a pittance), and that because Ron was going to have to pay the buyer's premium if I won, the result would be the same as if I paid for the set and then flipped it back to Ron.

As it turned out, Ron's fear was correct and nobody outbid me, even though Ron had hoped the set might go much higher than my bid and in fact sold it for 20k more eventually. So he paid the premium and the set was returned to him. It worked out exactly the same as if there had been a reserve, or higher opening bid. No victim. Nobody "run up." To be clear, Ron had no idea who else had bid or whether they had placed a top all. I am pretty sure, by the way, that many of the lots identified by the government as allegedly involving shill bidding (including multiple lots consigned by other Net 54 board members whose names have not been mentioned yet) are of the same character. Some, on the other hand, doubtless are lots where Mastro and Allen knew the top alls and bid them up themselves, or told the consignor.

I understand there are different ways to view the transaction. We have, in fact, debated this issue before at least in the abstract. I understand the other side, and have no doubt many of you folks will vilify Ron and me. So be it. I have nothing to hide. And apologies for the delay in posting, but I needed to verify the facts with the consignor.

If you are going to vilify Ron, by the way, please be sure to include the other board members identified as consignors on multiple lots, it would be very unfair to single him out.
There are a lot of catty, snarky comments that would be fun to post, but really, reading this just makes me sad. You still don't get it. There are only two sides to this: right and wrong. You are on the wrong side. You did a bad thing. At least have the decency to admit it without the song and dance. People forgive most stuff, but not hypocrisy.

glchen 01-28-2016 05:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1496943)
My name appears on the list of "shill bidders" on one transaction where my friend, Ron Goldberg, was the consignor. I don't view myself as a shill bidder, nor do I believe Ron did anything inappropriate. I have no doubt that some of you will disagree, and candidly I have shared this with a few people I respect a lot and they come out different ways. In any event, these are the facts.

In 2007, Ron had a valuable but relatively low demand oddball set (one of the Red Men sets). At some point he was talking to Doug and Doug asked if he would consider consigning the set. Ron said that he would but that because it was an oddball set, he was reluctant to do so unless a reserve could be placed on the auction, particularly since one of Ron's lots had sold well below his expectations in a previous auction. Doug said that he would not place a formal reserve, but instructed Ron that he could achieve the same result if he had a friend bid the reserve amount. Doug insisted, however, that if the friend won the auction, Ron would have to pay the buyer's premium.

Ron then asked me if I would bid for him. After thinking it over, I agreed. My thinking at the time was that Ron was not going to consign the set anyhow without a de facto reserve (so that there really was no scenario of a no reserve auction where someone could have won the set for a pittance), and that because Ron was going to have to pay the buyer's premium if I won, the result would be the same as if I paid for the set and then flipped it back to Ron.

As it turned out, Ron's fear was correct and nobody outbid me, even though Ron had hoped the set might go much higher than my bid and in fact sold it for 20k more eventually. So he paid the premium and the set was returned to him. It worked out exactly the same as if there had been a reserve, or higher opening bid. No victim. Nobody "run up." To be clear, Ron had no idea who else had bid or whether they had placed a top all. I am pretty sure, by the way, that many of the lots identified by the government as allegedly involving shill bidding (including multiple lots consigned by other Net 54 board members whose names have not been mentioned yet) are of the same character. Some, on the other hand, doubtless are lots where Mastro and Allen knew the top alls and bid them up themselves, or told the consignor.

I understand there are different ways to view the transaction. We have, in fact, debated this issue before at least in the abstract. I understand the other side, and have no doubt many of you folks will vilify Ron and me. So be it. I have nothing to hide. And apologies for the delay in posting, but I needed to verify the facts with the consignor.

If you are going to vilify Ron, by the way, please be sure to include the other board members identified as consignors on multiple lots, it would be very unfair to single him out.
Peter, this is an argument that anyone on the list could make. As another poster mentioned, this is counted as a sale, so one way shillers drive the price of items up is that they show demand for that price (e.g., VCP). If you dot VCP with fake sales, then buyers think there is actual demand for the item at that price, where there isn't. I definitely respect practically all of your posts, so I hope you can come around your thinking on this one.

brianp-beme 01-28-2016 05:16 PM
Procedural query
 
How was it determined shill bidding occurred on all these lots? Many of them are obvious, such as the ones listed as the shiller being the auction house or an employee, and ones from consigners with multiple lots, each having the same shilling bidder, but how about the other one-offs? Are there records of 'shill agreements' that wasn't obvious in this document? Being a non-lawyer, I refused to read the whole document.

Brian

sago 01-28-2016 05:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bcornell (Post 1496914)
I get what you're saying, but when you have access to a database as Mastro and Allen did, you can do anything you want with it. There's no guarantee emails were sent to high bidders to notify them.

Put another way, do we think their receptionist was part of the shill bidding conspiracy? That seems unlikely.

Bill
Mastro was close with Don Steinbach IIRC. Figure Henny is related. Not accusing her of anything, but it is possible.

D@v1d D@v1s

Leon 01-28-2016 05:20 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by brianp-beme (Post 1496989)
How was it determined shill bidding occurred on all these lots? Many of them are obvious, such as the ones listed as the shiller being the auction house or an employee, and ones from consigners with multiple lots, each having the same shilling bidder, but how about the other one-offs? Were there records of 'shill agreements' that wasn't obvious in the listing?

Brian
I will take a stab at a guess. I guess they might have used bidding records, boxes sent to bidders who didn't win anything, boxes sent to consignors, admissions of rats, emails, texts, phone calls.....and I imagine the list goes on. But again, as Sgt Schultz would say, I know nothing.

Peter_Spaeth 01-28-2016 05:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by glchen (Post 1496988)
Peter, this is an argument that anyone on the list could make. As another poster mentioned, this is counted as a sale, so one way shillers drive the price of items up is that they show demand for that price (e.g., VCP). If you dot VCP with fake sales, then buyers think there is actual demand for the item at that price, where there isn't. I definitely respect practically all of your posts, so I hope you can come around your thinking on this one.
Gary that was not the intent here, but I do understand that aspect of it and I had not thought about it back at the time.

ullmandds 01-28-2016 05:30 PM
Based on Peter S's history on here...I am a little surprised as well that you do not see this type of behavior as wrong...a little shocking...but I respect u for coming forward.

On another note...apparently this type of behavior routinely occurs in other areas of collecting...fine arts, etc...where the "house" will "bid up" an item to a "hidden reserve" or such...and this is accepted. While I dont like this...I dont like most things...so go figure!!!!

Many here consider these pieces of cardboard "Art"...is it time for the hobby rules to change?

Peter_Spaeth 01-28-2016 05:31 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Exhibitman (Post 1496987)
There are a lot of catty, snarky comments that would be fun to post, but really, reading this just makes me sad. You still don't get it. There are only two sides to this: right and wrong. You are on the wrong side. You did a bad thing. At least have the decency to admit it without the song and dance. People forgive most stuff, but not hypocrisy.
Adam, you are entitled to your opinion. Make whatever snarky comments you wish, I don't mind at all, I knew the wave of sanctimoniousness was coming when I posted. Some agree with you, and some very thoughtful people I have spoken to don't see it in your black and white terms. Maybe they will chime in, maybe they won't, whatever.

Peter_Spaeth 01-28-2016 05:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ullmandds (Post 1496994)
Based on Peter S's history on here...I am a little surprised as well that you do not see this type of behavior as wrong...a little shocking...but I respect u for coming forward.

On another note...apparently this type of behavior routinely occurs in other areas of collecting...fine arts, etc...where the "house" will "bid up" an item to a "hidden reserve" or such...and this is accepted. While I dont like this...I dont like most things...so go figure!!!!

Many here consider these pieces of cardboard "Art"...is it time for the hobby rules to change?
Pete, for better or worse, and I have said this before many times in debates here so this is nothing new, I think running someone up knowing they have a top all is not the same thing as bidding a lot up to a reserve, especially with the willingness to pay the premium. I get the argument on the other side. As for coming forward, that's just my choice. Hopefully some others will offer their own explanations and perspectives, but if not, well I will surely take the heat for them as it's a lot easier to dump on an actual poster than people who aren't willing to engage.

ElCabron 01-28-2016 05:37 PM
Crickets
 
Anyone whose name is on that list in spite of their innocence is welcome to come here and set the record straight. Feel free to let us know all about how you didn't do it and how you're outraged that your reputation is being dragged through the mud. Go ahead and publicly declare your innocence right here. There is absolutely no reason not to, if you're innocent, so please post here so we can help you clear your name. If innocent people are being publicly accused of unethical actions which they didn't do, I say we demand an investigation into how that happened. Don't just sit there and let everyone think you have zero integrity. The truth shall set you free! Or shut you up. The truth will definitely do one of those two things.

-Ryan

FirstYearCards 01-28-2016 05:46 PM
Why would you ever put a bid in for something that you didn't think it was worth? Seems to me if you put a bid in for something at $5,000 and it's bid up to it, that's what you are willing to pay for it and what it's worth(to you).

bnorth 01-28-2016 05:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ullmandds (Post 1496994)
Based on Peter S's history on here...I am a little surprised as well that you do not see this type of behavior as wrong...a little shocking...but I respect u for coming forward.
+1 I also know what Peter done was wrong but respect him for coming forward.

Peter_Spaeth 01-28-2016 05:56 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bnorth (Post 1497004)
+1 I also know what Peter done was wrong but respect him for coming forward.
I appreciate that. I much prefer to be slammed by people who disagree with me than to appear to be cowardly and not confront the issue.

xplainer 01-28-2016 06:03 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by bnorth (Post 1497004)
+1 I also know what Peter done was wrong but respect him for coming forward.
Yeah, that is what I meant with my post. Agree Ben.

Steve D 01-28-2016 06:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1496955)
As I thought of it, if Ron had not consigned the set at all, or if there had been a reserve or an opening bid at the reserve level, nobody could have won it for less than one bid above mine anyhow. So your hypothetical is not real, as I see it. But as I said, I do understand there are other ways to look at it.

Here's my take:

If there had been, say, a $2,000 reserve on the lot, and the highest bidder bid $1,500, everyone would see that the set did not meet the reserve. This could be attributed to either the reserve being set too high, or there just being low interest in the set at that particular time. As it happened, a "shill bid" was placed for $2,000, to match the "unstated" reserve. This led people to believe the set had sold at that price. This is the lie, that the set sold, when it actually did not; and this is where, in my opinion, the main problem lies. It results in false price information being released to the public, and a false value being placed on the item. The set may later exceed the value that was falsely reported at that time, but there is really no way of knowing what effect the false info had, even if there are years between the auction in question, and the actual later sale.

The safest and best way to proceed is to set a reserve (if desired), and let the bidding determine if the reserve is realistic (at that particular moment in time). Then at least, if the item does not sell, the public has accurate information to use, in later placing a value on it.

Steve

ElCabron 01-28-2016 06:15 PM
As heroic as it was to "come forward" AFTER he'd been publicly outed for shill bidding, which he actually did do, maybe every board member doesn't still need to come forward and congratulate Peter. I think we all get it. He did a wonderful thing and has received plenty of kudos and validation for it. Hopefully Peter will serve as inspiration for others to come forward and admit their guilt, which will certainly be received with thunderous applause while board members sing "For he's a jolly good fellow" before each one individually praises the shill bidder in a brand new post for being such a stand up guy.

-Ryan

Shoebox 01-28-2016 06:16 PM
Have been looking over the information in this document a lot through the day and while I was not directly affected by this I have a lot of thoughts I want to express.

1. Peter, seeing your name appear as a shill bidder was disappointing to me as I genuinely appreciate the knowledge, experience, and opinions you contribute to this community. However, I thank you for being willing to acknowledge your actions and face fallout from them. I respect you for doing that even if I think your actions were wrong. There are others that have much more to answer for but so far remain silent.

2.This is only a tiny portion of the fraud. 2 years worth of auctions by only one AH and this is only the transactions that someone with direct knowledge squealed on or confessed to having direct knowledge of the conspiracy. We know about Peter's because of conversations between the consignor and Maestro. How many agreements like that might have been reached that the AH didn't know about. I don't have to tell the AH that I am going to have a proxy place a protection bid on my consignment to keep from losing it at too low a price.

3. If a name appears as a shill bidder you placed a shill bid or one was placed under your name. The only way your name appears in that column was if there is direct evidence or testimony that the bid in question was part of the conspiracy. Some of the theories that some in that list may not be directly involved is in my opinion likely just wishful thinking.

4. The AH has an incentive to shill if there is a high max bid so it is possible for a consignor to have his lots shill bid without his involvement. However, when I see a board member appear as a consignor for 30 lots in this list and the names of the shill bidders only appears on their lots then I can make a pretty safe inference they were a willing participant in the fraud. If there is some other explanation for that JC Clarke I welcome you to offer it.

5. The occurrences I mention in 4 are present for Ken Goldin as well. So, there is a strong likelihood that he was involved in arranging shill bidding of several consignments to Maestro. If he is willing to participate in such actions in other auctions why should I have any confidence that he doesn't allow or even facilitate it in the auctions his AH runs? I hope Leon is already considering whether Goldin Auctions should continue to be allowed to advertise on this forum. I know I am unlikely to ever bid in one of their auctions.

I know I am just a bottom level collector and I don't have a spit's worth of significance in the collecting world but even a novice nobody like me can see that there are a whole lot more people than just the ones on this list that have dirt on their hands.

Peter_Spaeth 01-28-2016 06:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElCabron (Post 1497015)
As heroic as it was to "come forward" AFTER he'd been publicly outed for shill bidding, which he actually did do, maybe every board member doesn't still need to come forward and congratulate Peter. I think we all get it. He did a wonderful thing and has received plenty of kudos and validation for it. Hopefully Peter will serve as inspiration for others to come forward and admit their guilt, which will certainly be received with thunderous applause while board members sing "For he's a jolly good fellow" before each one individually praises the shill bidder in a brand new post for being such a stand up guy.

-Ryan
Nobody does sarcasm quite like Ryan. I should have let those posts stand where Adam and Ullman originally thought I was a victim, I guess.

swarmee 01-28-2016 06:34 PM
So the "Hidden Reserve" was basically the same concept that PWCC used in eBay for years as well as are still in the Terms of Service at multiple auctionhouses going today. Not illegal, just unsavory.

I wasn't in the vintage card market at that time, and I don't really splash in the deep end now, but I will continue to make minimum bids and then snipe at the end.

Stonepony 01-28-2016 06:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoebox (Post 1497016)
Have been looking over the information in this document a lot through the day and while I was not directly affected by this I have a lot of thoughts I want to express.

1. Peter, seeing your name appear as a shill bidder was disappointing to me as I genuinely appreciate the knowledge, experience, and opinions you contribute to this community. However, I thank you for being willing to acknowledge your actions and face fallout from them. I respect you for doing that even if I think your actions were wrong. There are others that have much more to answer for but so far remain silent.

2.This is only a tiny portion of the fraud. 2 years worth of auctions by only one AH and this is only the transactions that someone with direct knowledge squealed on or confessed to having direct knowledge of the conspiracy. We know about Peter's because of conversations between the consignor and Maestro. How many agreements like that might have been reached that the AH didn't know about. I don't have to tell the AH that I am going to have a proxy place a protection bid on my consignment to keep from losing it at too low a price.

3. If a name appears as a shill bidder you placed a shill bid or one was placed under your name. The only way your name appears in that column was if there is direct evidence or testimony that the bid in question was part of the conspiracy. Some of the theories that some in that list may not be directly involved is in my opinion likely just wishful thinking.

4. The AH has an incentive to shill if there is a high max bid so it is possible for a consignor to have his lots shill bid without his involvement. However, when I see a board member appear as a consignor for 30 lots in this list and the names of the shill bidders only appears on their lots then I can make a pretty safe inference they were a willing participant in the fraud. If there is some other explanation for that JC Clarke I welcome you to offer it.

5. The occurrences I mention in 4 are present for Ken Goldin as well. So, there is a strong likelihood that he was involved in arranging shill bidding of several consignments to Maestro. If he is willing to participate in such actions in other auctions why should I have any confidence that he doesn't allow or even facilitate it in the auctions his AH runs? I hope Leon is already considering whether Goldin Auctions should continue to be allowed to advertise on this forum. I know I am unlikely to ever bid in one of their auctions.

I know I am just a bottom level collector and I don't have a spit's worth of significance in the collecting world but even a novice nobody like me can see that there are a whole lot more people than just the ones on this list that have dirt on their hands.
I agree
I'm going to unsubscribe to Goldin Auctions
Do I have to start a thread to ban myself?

Jeffrompa 01-28-2016 06:49 PM
Makes me want to open a pizza shop . It's kind of disturbing to the soul .

xplainer 01-28-2016 06:54 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElCabron (Post 1497015)
As heroic as it was to "come forward" AFTER he'd been publicly outed for shill bidding, which he actually did do, maybe every board member doesn't still need to come forward and congratulate Peter. I think we all get it. He did a wonderful thing and has received plenty of kudos and validation for it. Hopefully Peter will serve as inspiration for others to come forward and admit their guilt, which will certainly be received with thunderous applause while board members sing "For he's a jolly good fellow" before each one individually praises the shill bidder in a brand new post for being such a stand up guy.

-Ryan
Ryan,
I really don't know Peter, except posting on here. But he stepped up and told what he did. I think you are going over board on the praise thing.

I, and others, have said what he did was wrong, but thank you for stepping up and telling us your story.

Others haven't responded at all. And probably won't.

Peter told what he did. Everyone, except him, have said it was wrong. He'll come around.

No one has supported his action or position.

glchen 01-28-2016 07:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1496993)
Gary that was not the intent here, but I do understand that aspect of it and I had not thought about it back at the time.
Thanks for your response, Peter. Obviously, you did not gain from this transaction, and frankly, although you are defending him, I think your friend put you in a bad spot. If you had not accepted that request out of friendship, you would not be having to defend yourself now.

1880nonsports 01-28-2016 07:16 PM
#186 Report Post Unread Today, 08:16 PM
 
overall pretty well said.
Peter I read most of your posts as they're generally threads of interest to me and I respect your thoughtful contributions much of the time. I think you made the wrong call back then - the climate was a bit different than it is now but your action has to be seen in the light as complicity in creating an artificial transaction. This is true whether or not you could see evidence of your bid's effects and it's impact. Frankly I'm surprised. Not an egregious act - done without ill intent - but in the arena of right vs. wrong - wrong. I don't think owning up with a caveat is the degree of response I'd expect from you but appreciate that you felt manning up was the way to go.........
As for Henny or Chad - my gut feeling is they were unwittingly exploited.
When one sees the actual scope reflected in but a small part of the hobby over a short period of time ON PAPER - it becomes very real. Everyone in the hobby pays the price so I think everyone should be pissed. That and my friends Marty and Glen Mechanick were shilled more than once. That makes it personal......

Beastmode 01-28-2016 07:17 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Stonepony (Post 1497035)
I agree
I'm going to unsubscribe to Goldin Auctions
Do I have to start a thread to ban myself?
:):):)

Shoebox 01-28-2016 07:27 PM
Since I called out one forum member by name for appearing as a consignor on a large number of lots all shill bid by the same person I should also point out that that is also true of forum member Greg Schwartz.

Peter_Spaeth 01-28-2016 07:32 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1880nonsports (Post 1497053)
overall pretty well said.
Peter I read most of your posts as they're generally threads of interest to me and I respect your thoughtful contributions much of the time. I think you made the wrong call back then - the climate was a bit different than it is now but your action has to be seen in the light as complicity in creating an artificial transaction. This is true whether or not you could see evidence of your bid's effects and it's impact. Frankly I'm surprised. Not an egregious act - done without ill intent - but in the arena of right vs. wrong - wrong. I don't think owning up with a caveat is the degree of response I'd expect from you but appreciate that you felt manning up was the way to go.........
As for Henny or Chad - my gut feeling is they were unwittingly exploited.
When one sees the actual scope reflected in but a small part of the hobby over a short period of time ON PAPER - it becomes very real. Everyone in the hobby pays the price so I think everyone should be pissed. That and my friends Marty and Glen Mechanick were shilled more than once. That makes it personal......
Fair comment and I appreciate your perspective. As I told Gary, for better or worse I was not focused at all at the time on the potential for creating an artificial transaction. I don't remember now if as a general matter that had been flagged or not as a hobby issue but in any case not making any excuses. Points taken.

Beastmode 01-28-2016 07:33 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 1497008)
I appreciate that. I much prefer to be slammed by people who disagree with me than to appear to be cowardly and not confront the issue.
I don't know Peter, and I'm not a piling-on type of poster, and I generally don't cast stones, and I'm not without my own faults, but that was a duesch bag move in 2007.

It appears you haven't gone through the 10-step shiller program. Your are now a recovering shiller, which means stop digging.

But I do commend you for having the balls to post. In 12 months, no-one will remember this.

Beastmode 01-28-2016 07:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shoebox (Post 1497059)
Since I called out one forum member by name for appearing as a consignor on a large number of lots all shill bid by the same person I should also point out that that is also true of forum member Greg Schwartz.
Call em all out. Can't wait for the stories.

Mark 01-28-2016 07:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by swarmee (Post 1497032)
So the "Hidden Reserve" was basically the same concept that PWCC used in eBay for years as well as are still in the Terms of Service at multiple auctionhouses going today. Not illegal, just unsavory.

I wasn't in the vintage card market at that time, and I don't really splash in the deep end now, but I will continue to make minimum bids and then snipe at the end.
The hidden reserve is unsavory and contrary to the spirit of the auction. It is not illegal, but I don't think Christy Mathewson would do it.

Fred 01-28-2016 07:42 PM
After reading through this document I felt like I wanted to puke. WTF!

How do they know that those on the shill bidders list actually shilled the auction?

Can we assume that each of the victims were notified?

Was any restitution paid to the victims by the shill bidders or Mastro or Allen?

OMG - how much of those auctions were actually legitimate? Based on all the shill bidding going on it appears that many items are probably a bit inflated in value.

Is anything going to happen to the other shill bidders listed?


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