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It obvious from your response that you did not read the reference, http://poynton.ca/ColorFAQ.html, which primarily concerns reconciling the difference with digital images. Had you done so, you would have recognized that a pool of pictures being sought does not produce research that is unreliable, random, or invalid. In fact, it provides guidance for taking random pictures and modifying to a standard normal for computer use. Regardless of the pool of pictures we obtain, all can be adjusted to the same color standards we set for Bond Bread and Sport Star Subject cards. From Ted we have original Bond Bread inserts and I have some of the Subjects cards, on which to establish such standards. It is a complex and detailed process I am not yet willing to do unless I have enough pictures to apply it to. I see you have apparently lost interest in finding out just what is actually a Bond Bread or a Sport Star Subjects card. For some reason you chose to delete most of the content of your postings in this thread prior to the one quoted above. It seems you did not like the direction I was going in pointing that high grade cards of the lookalike Bond Bread and Sport Star Subjects sets primarily come from Sport Star Subjects sets. Obviously you do not agree that placing a single card inside a bread package to be handled as it will by the recipient will cause cards to have more wear than those being placed in a protective box from which one did not have to take any cards out. I also noticed that on 05-29-2020 you started a Post, which you have now changed the title to “no longer for sale -- 1947 Homogenized Bond Bread SGC 7.5 Jackie Robinson RC.” There, you were offering an SCG graded 86 NM+ card that SCG had labeled as a “1947 Bond Bread Jackie Robinson” for over $3,500. I am duplicating your pictures from your thread below. https://www.net54baseball.com/attach...1&d=1590772635 https://www.net54baseball.com/attach...1&d=1590772654 If you are really interested in knowing whether your card is accurately authenticated by SCG, then asked them how they know its not a Sport Star Subject set card. The rest of us would like to know the answer. Do you? I'm sorry I have not been fully disclosing all of the information I have. I first wanted to address the compelling questions raised for years in this thread that may cause some to misinterpret the facts I have uncovered. For example, in the scan of the back of the SCG card above, the lower right corner of the picture shows the round die-cut ending but with the remaining bottom end of the card not in direct alignment with that die cut. The cards from a stack of sheets were first cut with a straight knife blade to make stacks of individual cards. Then two adjoining sides of a stack of card were die-cut, then the cards rotated 180 degrees to die-cut the other two sides. The opposite corners of a card were cut by the same die-cutter. While parts of the opposite corners show cuts from part of the same die-cutter, they are usually not an exact match. I have several examples of such die-cutting. The cards were printed on sheets with no space between cards. Even today, straight-edge cutting of cards is not an exact science. Otherwise, “centering” would be of no concern. I will be providing in my article detailed information about the die-cutting, including pictures of the cuts different die-cutters used so you see which your card matches up with. Griffon512, I own copyrights. I appreciate your attempt at humor in the “copyright” notice you added at the end of your post. I understand for a Copyright to be valid, it must say “copyright” or have the © symbol, the date, and the name and address of the copyright holder. I don't think yours meets that test. Even if it did, the fair comment I've made above about your post would be protected from copyright infringement. I make no claim to the intellectual property of anyone else. Be well, Mike Copyright 2020 by Michael Fried, P.O. Box 27521, Oakland, California 94602-0521 |
1. No I did not delete most of the comments of the posts I've made in this thread. I've added some content to my comments so they will show up as edits but feel free to log every single edit I've made if you are able to see that. Not sure where you are going with that insinuation but whatever.
2. My Homogenized Bread Jackie was sold so it is no longer available. Masterful sleuthing. What that means is even if someone were to want to insinuate that I'm talking my cards up there is no basis for it. I don't have any Homogenized Bread Cards, Sports Star Subject cards, Festberg cards, etc. I'm guessing you have a number of Festberg cards or other cards like them, but I will not questions your biases. Again, you are confusing indifference with an obvious bridge to nowhere or a likely blanket of erroneous information presented as fact. I do care that people are not completely misled by pseudo-research that a junior high schooler could gather presented as substantive information, and that is my only compelling interest in responding to this dead-end (or worse) thread. Ted took the right approach in not responding anymore when pushing on a string, and I will too. 3. Your point about copyright law is wrong and some lawyers on this thread can correct you, but I can't blame them for not participating. I'm sure we're all waiting with baited breadth for the article! |
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It's true, I've posted little on the 13 cards of the Bond Bread special Jackie Robinson set. member Charleybrown has been researching that issue far beyond belief for years and has posted extensive, useful information in the thread entitled, " OT: Revisiting the D302 Jackie Robinson Bond Bread Release Date " and elsewhere. In one of his July 2020 posts, Charleybrown indicated he was going to write a more detailed article fully exploring those cards. You should look forward to reading it as I do once it gets published. He has broken a lot of myths about those cards, even those that have existed for over 60 years. The hardest ones of those myths are the dates that each of the individual cards were issued. He has conclusively proven, including from the 1946-1949 dates of the original, underlying wire service photos used to create the Robinson pictures on the cards, that not all were issued in 1947. Rather, they were issued from 1947 through 1949. Other than my little reference to those Robinson cards (such as in Post #290 on 07-03-2020), I would be redundant to attempt to add anything to Chareybrown's outstanding efforts. I will say, the grading card companies appear to be ignoring reality and are still dating all of these 13 cards on their labels as 1947. That's very misleading for those seeking only "rookie" cards. GeoPoto, distinguishing Bond Bread cards from other lookalikes is not an endless process. I've only been at it for a little more than 3 months. Already, we have found the pictures used in the Bond Bread insert set come from ACME Newspictures Service. That also establishes that the Team Photo Packs sold in ballparks (that contained some of those photos) were made up of pictures from ACME. We've found that cards generally attributed as "Bond Bread perforated dual sided cards" are actually an Elgee Product, not associated with Bond Bread. We date the release date to 1947-48 because a few of the pictures of action shots of Cowboys in the set come from the movie "Red River," which though filmed in 1946, was released in 1948. ACME distributed movie studio pictures to more than 900 clients including over 700 newspaper groups. Since all of the rest of the Cowboy photos come from Cowboy movies released in 1947 or before, it is possible that "Red River" did release movie shots for advance publicity in 1947. If so, that would put the set as a 1947 set and not a 1947-48 one. We've found that the 1947 Bond Bread insert cards, and the round and square corner cards of the Sport Star Subject sets and the Screen Star Subject sets were manufactured by the Meyercord Co. of Chicago. You fear the distinction between the Bond Bread inserts and the rounded-corner Sport Star Subject cards may take forever to resolve. Actually, we're not far off from that. While it is a complex issue, as time permits to do so, an extrapolation of the digital image information in http://poynton.ca/ColorFAQ.html will answer your question. That should satisfy your concerns about the provenance of cards posted. We tried to make the distinction another way -- by comparing the wear on individual die-cuts used for the photos on Bond Bread cards and Sports Star Subjects cards. That would have been very easy if Ted had provided a uniform scan of each of his proven original Bond Bread card to use for comparison. He refused. We also established as untrue the opinion that the Festberg remainders were reprints made in the 1980's. Our ultraviolet light test proved they were printed on cardstock made before 1951. We've also shown the fallacy of attempting to distinguish cards by how close one part of an image is to the edge vs. the closeness of the image to an edge of another card. That issue arose because people forgot to apply their knowledge about cards in general. The uncut cards in the sheets of Bond Bread and Sport Star Subjects had no space between each other and would trim just like any other cards, often with a little shift to the left or right, or up or down. We all see what happens during such shifts, and its called "centering," an issue that still plagues the hobby today. Don't give up! We're working on it and have gone a long way in less than 3½ months. Post your pictures of the backs of Bond Bread and Sport Star Subjects cards, and please continue making comments. It all helps us focus on the actual issues troubling our readers. Stay healthy, Mike Copyright 2020 by Michael Fried, P.O. Box 27521, Oakland, California 94602-0521 |
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"Form of Copyright Notice There are relatively strict technical requirements as to what a copyright notice must contain if it is to serve its purpose of preventing people from claiming in court that they were "innocent-infringers." A valid copyright notice contains three elements: * the copyright symbol ©, or the words "Copyright" or "Copr." * if website is published, the year of publication, and * the name of the copyright owner. It is not required that these elements appear in any particular order in the notice, but most notices are written in the order set forth above. The purpose is to give unequivocal notice of the copyright protection, so that the would-be thief cannot claim as a defense that he or she did not know about the protection." The Nolo Press webpage from which the above comes is: https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclope...%20%22Copr.%22. Stay healthy, Mike P.S. I received my Doctor of Jurisprudence degree in 1997 at age 52. Copyright 2020 by Michael Fried, P.O. Box 27521, Oakland, California 94602-0521 |
Interesting. What did these sell for in the early &0s? Seems like a lot of trouble to find old paper to reprint these Bond Bread cards. And we find some of the movie star cards suspicious too?
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Long term collectors have always been suspicious of the Festberg set and they put no value to it. In 2009, Post #49 above noted that a complete Festberg set of 24 sold at auction for $102. Another responded that he saw the auction but didn't think anything of it, but had he known it was only $102 he would have bid. Today, Festberg sets are seen offered on eBay as "Bond Bread" sets generally for around $500 to $1,000, though some have sold for as little as $250 while others over $1,000. Again, these are all usually described as "Bond Bread" sets. A Jackie Robinson card from the Festberg remainders, if offered in a slab of a card grading service that identifies it as a "Bond Bread" card, have sold for over $1,000. Generally, though, an ungraded Robinson from the Festberg remainders can be picked up for $50 to $100. In my Post #203 OF 05-10-2020 above, I pictured four of the Festberg remainder cards I had asked SCG to grade shortly after I have received it. Three cards were slabbed and labeled as "1947 Homogenized Bond Bread" cards. SCG would not grade the fourth card, the Jackie Robinson, saying it had been trimmed. Unwittingly, SCG may have given us an answer to the cause of the brown toning on those cards. Many are likewise "trimmed." If you look at the edges of some of them, you can see a heavy dark brown mold much deeper in color than the more uniform brown toning on the back. The set was highly promoted in the 1980's and apparently the over 3,000 sets found sold out. It is not unreasonable to assume that the more severely damaged cards of the find had their edges trimmed to remove the more obvious mold when the supply of sets decreased. The unanswered question not yet addressed in this thread is what effect did that brown mold have on the cardstock of the Festberg cards. People have been just looking at them as a toned something and assumed they were always thinner than Bond Bread and Sport Star Subjects cards. In May 2016, Kevin O'Gara asked what are real Bond Bread cards worth. Leon replied in June, "Generally speaking it's not an expensive set relative to others." From the information Griffon512 has recently provided, the Jackie Robinson round corner card he was offering at over $3,500 has been sold. The card had been identified by SCG as a "Bond Bread" card and given a high grade. It will remain difficult to say what are realistic prices for actual 1947 Bond Bread package inserts until clear guidelines distinguishing them from round-corner Sport Star Subject cards are generally acceptable. There is little question today that anyone would damage a high-grade round-corner Sports Star Subject card so that it would appear to have the wear and tear s) would have. Recently, a dealer on eBay offered 9 separate auction lots of individual Bond Bread cards with a starting bid of 99¢. While only in "average" condition (cards not especially cared for over the years), only one had a crease. I was the only bidder on 8 of the lots. The ninth I won at a one bid raise over $5. So what are Bond Bread inserts worth? Also on eBay is a dealer offering a complete set of Screen Star Subjects cards at $249.95. I arrived here at this thread a few months ago looking for information on what I thought were Bond Bread cards. My eyes glossed over trying to understand the so many different sets the thread had virtually passed on by mere reference. I do understand Ted's concerns. The world was trying to tell him that the actual cards of his childhood memories were something they were not. Looking at the subject with "fresh eyes," I saw that while these many "imposters" (impostors) were a challenge to Ted, they too were also ignored. The bulk of the cards were not widely known in collector circles, and where known, more often than not, little of anything else about was known. Clutch-Hitter, I'm not sure I'm going in the direction you sought. Like most of us, you probably have seen your fill of modern cards and their manufacturer created limited print "rarities." Hundreds of millions of Bond Bread cards were inserted into bread packages. Where are they? It is virtually impossible to complete a set in average condition, but you can complete a set of what are called "Bond Bread" cards in near mint or better condition. I'm sure that Charleybrown has spent many enjoyable years just trying to gather sufficient information to accurately date and describe the 13 cards of the Bond Bread special Jackie Robinson set. And that's what it's all about, learning new things and having fun. My 1988 1st edition of the Standard Catalog puts the special 13 card Jackie Robinson set at $3,150 NM, with all of the individual cards at $250 NM each, except the Robinson Portrait Card (with facsimile autograph), which it values at $150 NM. Today, you couldn't touch a single NM card of the set for the 1988 price of the complete set (and probably could not find a complete in that condition offered for sale back then). The 1988 Standard Catalog does not mention Bond Bread package insert cards. What has caused much dispute recently in this thread is a set of cards called Bond Bread cards in high grade that was sold along with a complete set of the four Sport Star Subjects boxes in May 2020 on eBay for over $4,500. Many old-timers believe the cards to be genuine 1947 Bond Bread cards with the Sport Star Subject Boxes an add-on. Others, like myself, believe the cards are from those Sport Star Subject boxes. It has yet to be explained why so many cards have turned up in recent years in high grade that are called "Bond Bread" cards, when the actual package insert cards old-timers acquired back then are not now in the same high condition? Would the actual population of high grade cards make a true 1947 Bond Bread insert graded 7 more valuable than a Sport Star Subjects card graded 7.5, 8 or 9? I looked in some old 1990 Sport Collector Digest (SCD) and other 1990 card newspapers I have and could find no ads (not even classified ones) mentioning Bond Bread insert cards. New issues were the big thing. PSA's website shows they have graded some 52,816 1985 Topps #401 Mark McGwire Olympic "Rookie" cards with 42,426 of them at PSA 8 or better. In 1990, the McGwires in PSA 8 were being sold above $200 and touted as investments. Today, PSA's on-line price guide puts that PSA 8 McGwire at $15. But a lot of people had a lot of fun in the late 1980's just trying to find one. Sport Star Subjects cards will never see such a dramatic shift in price. But that is the fear many have if their cards are not identified as Bond Bread inserts. Sport Star Subjects cards are highly collectible and in short supply. While most do not believe they were issued before 1948-49, some inconclusive evidence suggests otherwise. The very nature of card collecting, where more people seek individual cards than try to complete sets, underlies an investment demand that drives a large part of the card business. This past week, I looked through several cardboard boxes containing some of the sorted plastic card boxes of non-sports cards I've had in storage since 1990. One of them contained 65 different cards from the 50 card Jack Rose Little Cigar back subset of the T59 American Tobacco Company "Flags of All Nations" set (a complete set with all front and back variations totals over 7,500). There are 4 Jack Rose back varieties for each of the 50 front designs or 200 cards in that subset. That's more different cards of any of the T59 subsets I have. With about a third of the Jack Rose subset, I thought should I complete it and work on the rest of the set? I put the plastic box back in order in the cardboard box and said to myself, "No." Since my interests in the Bond Bread like and related cards went beyond the 1947 Bond Bread inserts, I would have enough to do addressing the more than a couple of dozen of its lookalike and related sets. That was consistent with my efforts to reconstruct the Elgee perforated dual-sided sheets, the cards ow which are routinely mislabeled as "Bond Bread" cards. Clutch-Hitter, if you are a serious collector looking for something impossible to collect, try starting and putting together the 48 card set of "Page's Pittsburgh Milk Co. cards." These are identical to the Bond Bread package inserts, with “rounded” corners, but are rubberstamped on the back in either purple or black ink: “PAGE'S / PITTSBURGH MILK CO. / The Sweetest Milk Ever Sold”. Some have discounted the "Page's Milk" set as merely remainders of Bond Bread cards. It's true, Page's Milk did obtain remainders after the Bond Bread promotion was over. Page's Milk believed in extensive promotion of its products and its home-delivery service. When Page's Milk cards were brought up in this thread years ago, a responder was misunderstood when pointing out the intensity of Page's Milk promotional capabilities and the extent it went to to promote its name. Page's milk had a long run radio show widely broadcast. A singer on that radio show named Patti was always introduced as Patti "Page" (the Page's Milk singer). She adopted that name for use throughout her long and famous career that followed. But that does not end the story of the Page's Milk cards. In 1949, Page's Milk made an extensive card promotion all their own. Page's Milk especially distinguishing their overprinted cards from the old Bond Bread ones. Like many milk companies across the United States, Page's Milk was regularly home-delivered. It was to that large milk buying market that Page's applied its cards. Below is a scan of a Page's Milk offer that uses its overprinted cards to keep home-delivery customers coming back for more and a scan of the back of a card with Page's overprint. http://i.imgur.com/KlMyyyC.jpg?1 http://i.imgur.com/pDBJa2X.jpg?1 Or you might try something even more difficult. Work on the London Dry London Dry Beverages (including gin) cards. Those few known have identical pictures to Bond Bread package inserts, except have “square” corners. They are rubberstamped on the back: “Compliments of / LONDON DRY / TRADE MARK REGISTERED / The Topper of all Drinks (with logo in between) / BEVERAGES.” Very little is known about the London Dry cards except that in the late 1940s, some were released in New York City (the same city where the Festberg remainders were found 20 years later). It will be difficult to find one, but once you find the right track, it will lead you to more. (And keep me in mind if you find any duplicates.) http://i.imgur.com/pWcUtfh.jpg?1 I may be have been rambling on too long. So, be well, Mike Copyright 2020 by Michael Fried, P.O. Box 26521, Oakland, California 94602-0521 |
I just found this in Post 1 of a 01-22-2002 thread entitled "Festberg Warning." I would post a direct link to that thread if I knew how to do so.
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On 01-31-2002, Post 12 reads: Quote:
Relevant paragraph from the 01-22-1993 Sports Collectors Digest article on the Festberg remainders (posted a few years ago in this thread): http://i.imgur.com/iv00Ti6.jpg?1 |
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1949 LEAF Jackie Robinson
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Sorry to correct you, Dan. The LEAF BB cards were issued in 1949. I'm not faulting you (or others on this forum), who refer to this set of BB cards as 1948. The fault is with PSA, who has perpetuated this myth. Quote:
TED Z T206 Reference . |
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