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Posted By: <b>David Goff</b><p>I have no idea yet of who I will vote for in November. I was a Republican for 15 yrs and just turned to the Democratic side last year. I like McCain and I like Obama. I am leaning towards Obama due to the fact that McCain picked Palin. She <b>SCARES</b> me very much! I dont know if anyone watched the interview with Charlie Gibson last week, but I dont care what you say, that woman is not ready to lead our country. And for that reason, I will not vote for McCain. <br /><br />I dont know how many on the board remember the JFK election, but my mother said that Obama reminded her of him. Just the way he presented himself while talking to crowds. She is very excited about him. I would like to know if anyone else feel that way as well.

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Posted By: <b>David Goff</b><p>Rhys..Barry<br /><br />I have been looking for that Perot/Stockdale SNL skit for years and can not find it. That was one of the funniest skits on SNL of all-time...I still laugh just thinking about. <br /><br />Stockdale--I AM HUNGRY!!

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Posted By: <b>Tim</b><p>"I dont know how many on the board remember the JFK election, but my mother said that Obama reminded her of him. Just the way he presented himself while talking to crowds. She is very excited about him. I would like to know if anyone else feel that way as well."<br /><br />David-<br /><br />I hear a lot of people say things on both sides like your mothers comment. People love Obama for his presentation, or like Pahlin because she's more like them than the Washington elite. It's how we pick our president and that's really a shame.<br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>jdrum</b><p>Obama extremely impressive, charismatic, etc. But I am not electing an orator. Jury is still out for me. I will admit the VP selection of the Repubs has only heightened my level of cynicism.

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Posted By: <b>Tim</b><p>David-<br /><br />Here's your Stockton video.<br /><br /><a href="http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&VideoID=23764 953" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&VideoID=23764 953</a>

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Posted By: <b>David Goff</b><p>Awesome!!! Thanks Tim..I guess I didn't look hard enough LOL

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Posted By: <b>Jason</b><p>The only good thing about this thread was the memory of SNL skits it elicited from me. Thanks for that. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>John K</b><p> David, I was a freshman in college when JFK was shot. The country loved him and has never recovered from his loss (also RFK and MLK Jr.). JFK is still one of my heroes. Obama recalls him very much. <br /> Why is the South Republican? Because JFK, RFK, and LBJ fought for racial equality. It's hard for the Dems to win when they have to spot the GOP the South.

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Posted By: <b>Tom Boblitt</b><p>Yeah, Florida has been deciding for awhile but last time I checked, there are a lot more important states in the North, Midwest and West. That also makes it sound like everyone in the South is racist.

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Posted By: <b>John K</b><p> Not EVERYONE in the South. Reductio ad absurdum, eh Jeff.

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Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>"For me it's McCain....he is an American hero " <br />What makes him any more of an American hero than Obama? As editor of the Harvard Law Review, Obama could have made millions at a fancy New York law firm. Instead he chose to dedicate himself to work for poor and disadvantaged Americans. He sacrificed his own gain for the welfare of his countrymen and women. That is a real American hero. I am so tired of the rhetoric that implicitly claims that the only way to be patriotic or an American hero is through military service. To my mind, the greatest patriots during the Vietnam War were the protesters here who helped bring it to an end and saved countless American lives. McCain had the unfortunate coincidence of being a POW for five years. It probably damaged him psychologically, but it does NOT qualify him to be president. In fact, given that he has supported torture of American held POWs, I think his integrity is highly questionable. He has been a rubber stamp for the Bush agenda, voting with him over 90% of the time over the last 7 1/2 years. If we want four more years of America headed into the toilet both internationally and domestically, then McCain is the guy. But if we want to turn this recent disaster of the Bush failures around, we need to elect Obama.<br /><br />Leon, this is not directed at you, my friend. Your comment just inspired me. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br />JimB<br /><br />Edited to add "NOT". Just an oversight.

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Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>P.S.<br />I am headed for 36 hours of planes and airports in a little while, so I may not be able to respond promptly.<br />JimB

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>First and foremost you are a friend. I think Obama is a very good guy and could make a good President. That being said (as the saying goes)….. I assume by you referring to him (McCain) as being a prisoner “does” qualify him to be president, you were mistaking and merely having a subliminal reality awakening? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> If that is not the case and you in fact intended to say “doesn’t” qualify him to be President, then I agree with you; It doesn't. It is his character and what I have seen and read so far that has qualified him, to me…..I haven’t looked into the divorce issue he had so don’t want to go there….and I might not want to go there anyway, but if we are looking at integrity, then I guess that has to be deliberated, if not only to decide to allow it or not. When you say he has supported the torture of American POW’s why do I get the feeling you are taking that statement out of context, or not giving the other side. Here is what McCain said: <br /><br />“ When we passed the Military Commissions Act, we said that the C.I.A. should have the ability to use additional techniques,” Mr. McCain told reporters Friday in Oshkosh, Wis. “None of those techniques would entail violating the Detainee Treatment Act, which said that cruel, inhumane and degrading treatment are prohibited.” <br /><br />I saw him quoted many times as saying he is against waterboarding but I don’t blame him for not voting to pass the legislation. As long as the Detainee Treatment Act, which is sited above isn’t violated, then I am ok with what he did as it's the law which PREVENTS cruel and inhumane acts. Every single argument can have another one against it or for it, for either candidate. That is why I said to myself……....Myself- when I analyze these 2 candidates, with everything I know right now, who do I want to lead me, Obama or McCain?…It is McCain( at least so far)...I don't have to fully play my hand until the day to vote <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>....….have a safe trip…..<br />

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Posted By: <b>Ryan Christoff</b><p>Hey Jerks, <br /><br />Chet Brewer's full name was Chester Arthur Brewer. <br /><br />Oscar Charleston's middle name was McKinley, presumably after the later assassinated president. Charleston was born on October 14th, 1896. William McKinley was elected the 25th president of the United States on November 2nd, 1896. <br /><br />This all comes full circle because in 1899, McKinley's vice-president Garret Hobart died in office from heart failure. This meant that McKinley would have a new vice-president for the 1900 election in which he was re-elected to a 2nd term. As we all know, McKinley was unable to complete his 2nd term as president to due his being assassinated in 1901. This, of course, meant the vice-president would become the president.<br /><br />And that's how Sarah Palin became president of the United States. <br /><br />-Ryan

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Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>Leon,<br />The great thing about this country is that good people can disagree on politics and still be friends. I would consider you a friend even if you voted for Attilla the Hun (almost as bad as Dubya <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> ). Hopefully everybody here can discuss these issues without getting personal or too angry.<br />Jim<br />P.S. Thanks for pointing out the missing "NOT" in my post above. I just edited and changed it.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>jdrum</b><p>I hope I never have the unfortunate coincidence of being a POW for five years. I do have the unfortunate coincidence of living in The South for the last 15 years.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Leon, don't worry about your vote -- McCain has already won Texas. Move to NJ or NY quickly -- those are two states Obama's lead is slipping away as we speak; your vote will be more valuable there.

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Wow--its a tough world out there. Have not written anything here for a while and have not thought too much about cards. The financial business is undergoing tremendous turmoil--don't want to talk about my company but its been brutal.<br /><br />My two cents is that because of Palin I am a strong McCain supporter. I would have voted for McCain anyway but without a lot of enthusiasm. Palin makes me extremely enthused. I am a low tax, limited government, pro-life republican. I certainly am against any kind of animal cruelty and agree with what many of you say in this regard but I think human life is a larger issue and I think abortion is a tragedy. Don't want to impose my political views on anyone else but want to point out that there is a segment of the electorate that is very enthused about Gov. Palin and what she brings to the ticket.<br /><br />Jim(Dav)

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Hi Jim- sorry to hear about all the things that have gone on with your company, and don't want to bust your chops too hard under the circumstances, but...the thought of McCain dying and Palin becoming president is a more than frightening thought.<br /><br />Sound bites and a pretty face are one thing; but leading the greatest country in the world demands a great arsenal of skills that she is lacking. Being pro-life and believing in creationism will not be sufficient.

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Posted By: <b>Brian Martin</b><p>&gt;believing in creationism will not be sufficient.<br /><br /><br />I didn't realize that the earth was only about 7,000 years old and that dinosaur bones were put in the earth by demons to shake the faith of man. At least that's what a coworker who believes in creationism told me.<br />

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p><br /><br />Barry, I can think of a scarier thought: Obama being elected and staying for four years. <br /><br />Oh and this: "Sound bites and a pretty face are one thing; but leading the greatest country in the world demands a great arsenal of skills that he is lacking."<br /><br />I just removed the letter "s"--now we're talking about The One.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Sorry to disagree Jeff, but Obama serving four years is something I would embrace. He's a super smart guy who will be able to deal with big issues; I don't believe either McCain or Palin is his equal in that regard (and yes, he is not a perfect fit, I will concede that).

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p><br />"Barack Obama gets a rare tweak from CNN on his inability to perform off-script. While appearing at a campaign rally in Pueblo, Colorado, Obama made a joint appearance, not with Joe Biden or Senate candidate Mark Udall, but with a more critical member of his campaign — his Teleprompter. The Illinois senator used a teleprompter at both his Colorado events Monday — making for a particularly peculiar scene in Pueblo, where the prompter was set up in the middle of what is normally a rodeo ring."

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Posted By: <b>Rhys</b><p>Jeff<br /><br />You started out liking Obama and then changed your mind? I thought that once you went Barack you never go baaack. There goes my theory.

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Sorry Barry--I believe Obama is less qualified than Palin to be president and the thought of a president Obama scares me a lot more than a president first.<br /><br />Perhaps on raw intellect Obama is smarter, but Palin's instincts toward limited government, a strong US defense and presence, lower taxes and a culture of life are a lot more attractive to me than the higher taxes, increased role of government in daily life and cut and run defense policy that Obama and the left wing of the democratic party advocate. Obama has the most liberal voting record in the US Senate according to the non-partisan National Jourtal. Teddy is #2 and Biden #3. McCain is at the left wing of the reppublican party. Moderate republican over far left democrat--Barry if you are ever going to support a Republican now is the time.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Rhys, I think you used a code word in there.

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Posted By: <b>Tim</b><p>Not a jab but a serious question.<br /><br />For those of you that support Obama, are you OK with him taking money from you and giving it to someone who makes less because he believes its fair?<br /><br />I understand raising taxes to generate more revenue for the treasury (if in fact that would work) but I don't agree with taking my money and giving it to someone else simply because they make less than me.<br /><br />I also know that you don't pick a candidate based on just one issue but this one for me gets to the core of who Obama is and what he believes to be the role of goverment.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Jim- I will never support a Republican, and now is as bad a time as ever, given what they have done to this country the last eight years. I'll take my chances with a liberal.<br /><br />How are you holding up personally? You must have had a brutal week.

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Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>What an interesting thread. I hope it's okay if I chime in.<br /><br />I'll be voting Obama in the upcoming election, and I'll be doing so with more passion and enthusiasm than any Presidential election has ever stirred in me.<br /><br />Why? Because Obama's positions mirror mine, in virtually every instance. I like his position on the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, and on foreign policy in general. I like his position on education, and how he wants to tie tax incentives for secondary education to community service (a plan that could save me a considerable amount of money when my kids are of college age). I agree with his philosophies on social issues, and support his desire to encourage more young people to become teachers. His tax plan is favorable to people in my income bracket, as well as in most others. And while he is a proponent of a strong defense and proper equipment for our troops, he seems to be less hawkish than his opponent. Equally importantly, his opponent is on record as being in favor of a military draft - something that is important to me, considering my oldest son will be 17 when the next presidential term ends. Plus, as an added bonus, Obama has the ability to inspire and mobilize millions of people, which he has demonstrated during his entire campaign - that is a skill I don't take lightly.<br /><br />I also have to consider the potential Supreme Court appointees during the next term, and whether a candidate will make appointees that he feels are best for the country, as opposed to appointees that serve a political objective. During this campaign, each candidate has had to make precisely one appointment that has had to take into consideration the question of what is right vs, what is politically prudent - the selection of their running mate. In my mind, the right political move for Obama would have been to choose Clinton, and yet he chose Biden - someone with immense experience and foreign policy knowledge. To me, this shows he's making decisions that he feels are in the best interest of the country, as opposed to furthering his political agenda. His opponent, in my opinion, chose his running mate with the exact opposite goals in mind.<br /><br />In my opinion, all the rest is just background noise that distracts people from the actual issues - I've often found myself distracted by it as well. <br /><br />Just my opinion.<br /><br />-Al

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Posted By: <b>Peter Thomas</b><p>Tim in a word, yes. I do however have a large issue with taking my middle class money and transferring it to the very wealthy, including many politicians.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Al- you said it better than I could. Now, is anybody listening?

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Yes, some people are listening, Barry. Just not as many as last month, last week or yesterday. But more than tomorrow.

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Posted By: <b>Jim VB</b><p>Tim, Peter, <br /><br />Without getting specific or personal, Obama's tax plan would increase taxes on incomes over $250,000. This is the top 1.5% of national incomes. Do you really think that is "middle class"?

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I know Jeff, he's losing support, and if he doesn't find a better way to get his message across, he will lose. That's the way it goes.

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Posted By: <b>Tim</b><p>Al-<br /><br />Though I disagree I respect all of what you had to say. You are making an informed decision based on the issues that are important to you.<br /><br />I have a lot of respect for Obama but as I've stated before we just differ on to many issues for me to vote for him.<br /><br />I understand the anger over the state of the economy and blaming the current administration, but I don't hear much from those that support Obama about what the Democratic congress has or hasn't done in the last two years to help. Do they not shoulder any responsibility?<br /><br />I know this may sound silly to some of you but I would be more inclined to vote for Obama if there was a Republican controlled congress than to vote for him with the current congress and its leaders.<br /><br />Edited to add:<br /><br />Jim-<br /><br />I know $250,000 is a lot of money to more people than not, but it's not as much as it used to be either. And like I stated I don't have so much a problem with the tax being raised and the money going to the goverment for its use, as I do the money being taken from me and given to someone else. I don't belive that someone that already doesn't pay any income tax, has goverment programs available to them, etc. should now in addition to that, be sent a check in the mail.

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Posted By: <b>Peter Thomas</b><p>Jim, I was referring to my middle class income which is ,well, middle class certainly not $250,000.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Jim, you bring up a good point about the tax increase issue -- though I assure you that 250K in NYC is a lot different than 250K in Idaho. That being said, Obama's anticipated massive increase in capital gains tax and other associated taxes hits everyone, not just those in the top tax brackets.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Obama's plan hits the upper bracket the hardest...McCain's plan will give the top 1-2% the same generous breaks as Bush did. That alone is reprehensible.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Barry, what is reprehensible is paying more than 50% of gross income to taxes. Which is what I'll be doing should The One win.

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Posted By: <b>sagard</b><p>Four years of Obama would be great for the nation and give the Republicans a chance to regroup and get back to what they stand for. The country has survived the last eight years of egregious spending and Obama would not be worse. Obama has mentioned postponing the tax increases on the highest brackets if the economy is struggling, but wants to push through his tax cuts on all the other brackets.<br /><br />The bottom line is that both parties are going to spend like drunken sailors. The Republicans are going to max spend on wars and national defense and spend only enough to get by on social services. The Dems are likely to do the opposite. Neither will address social security, medical care and energy.<br /><br />I will vote for whose energy policy I prefer the most. I'm not impressed with "Drill Baby Drill" and I'm less impressed with the Dems who oppose it with no rational reasoning behind their position. To me there is only one reason not to drill and it has nothing to do with the Dems faux-environmental concerns.

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Posted By: <b>Tim</b><p>Barry-<br /><br />This is where the divide begins. There are some (I think like yourself) that see giving any tax break to the wealthest people as a bad thing. On the other side there are those who say those 1-2% shoulder the vast majority of the tax burden all ready, and are much more likely to invest what they save into the economy, thus improving the economy and increasing money to the treasury.<br /><br />It will be difficult to get these two sides to agree.<br /><br />Again I'm not saying I'm against raising taxes (though I would much rather cut spending), but you will never get me to believe that taking money from me and giving it directly to someone else is how this country should be run.<br /><br />Edited for typos.

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Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>Jeff:<br /><br />Obama plans no increases to the Capital Gains or Inheritance taxes for families earning less than $250,000. Most of the tax increases attributed to Obama's plan that get circulated around the internet are simply untrue. To my knowledge, all the Obama tax increases are at that $250K level or greater. I'd love if you could educate me as to where I'm incorrect in that assertion; I've tried to read all the information directly from Obama and filter out the rhetoric from other places.<br /><br />One thing I failed to mention in my previous post is McCain's desire to tax my health benefits, which is something I'm also trying to learn about without partisan rhetoric, so if you've got any info on that, I'd love to read it also.<br /><br />-Al

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Al, the fact is that raising capital gains does not lead to greater revenue for the government. Obama was told this during one of the Democratic debates and simply ignored it. And taking from the rich through much higher tax rates in order to help the poor and middle class has seldom worked in practice. Reducing rates, on the other hand, does increase the share of taxes paid by the highest income-earning group. For example, in 1981, when the highest tax rate on the rich was 70% and the top capital gains tax rate was close to 45%, the richest 1% of Americans paid 17% of total income taxes. In 2005, with a top income tax rate of 35% and capital gains at 15%, the richest 1% of Americans paid 39%.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>boxingcardman</b><p>I can think of an easy way to cut $3 billion a week...<br><br>Sic Gorgiamus Allos Subjectatos Nunc

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Tim- I've heard the argument before that the very rich will spend their wealth, thus helping everyone down the food chain. But I'm not convinced it works. You know, if you tax a billionaire 90%, he's still left with a $100 million. Doesn't seem so bad to me (not advocating a 90% tax, but wouldn't object either).<br /><br />Jeff- I know it will affect you personally but you are very fortunate to earn a lot of money. I am totally against welfare (surprised to hear a liberal say that?), but I do believe that those who work but still find themselves below the poverty line should be excused from paying any tax. Let the billionaires pay more and give the little guy a break. Let's level the playing field a little.

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Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>" That being said, Obama's anticipated massive increase in capital gains tax and other associated taxes hits everyone, not just those in the top tax brackets."<br /><br />Jeff, that's the statement you made that I'm trying to understand. You're pointing to a massive increase in capital gains and other taxes that hit everyone, and yet I don't see anywhere in Obama's plan where a thing exists. As I understand it, Obama plans to increase the capital gains taxes on families earning greater than $250K to no more than 28%, more likely closer to 20% - and not at all at the lower income levels.<br /><br />From reading what you're saying in that sentence above, your post would indicate that this is untrue. That confuses me, because everything I've read directly from the Obama campaign would indicate otherwise. Can you help me?<br /><br />-Al

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Barry, unfortunately it's not exactly the American Way to tax billionaires 90% of their income because some poor guy doesn't have any money or doesn't want to work. You may find with that thinking that either the billionaires leave the country, stop working, or we become a country of Socialists. <br /><br />And Barry, I'm not 'fornuate' to earn a lot of money. I was in court one day last week at 1 am. I hardly felt fortunate then.

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Posted By: <b>Tim</b><p>Barry-<br /><br />I can't argue with what you belive is just.<br /><br />I still wonder about this though. You said "but I do believe that those who work but still find themselves below the poverty line should be excused from paying any tax. Let the billionaires pay more and give the little guy a break. Let's level the playing field a little."<br /><br />Are you for those that work and are still below the poverty line that don't currently pay any tax getting a check in the mail for say $1,000?<br />

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I was using the 90% to make a point. Of course I don't advocate that. But I do believe that the rich should pay more tax and the poor a smaller percentage. That's not socialism, it's just a fair economic policy.

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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>...bails out a bank, a Socialist gets his wings. <br><br>_ <u> </u> _ <u> </u> _ <u> </u> _ <u> </u> _ <u> </u> _ <u> </u> _ _ <br /><br />Visit <a href="http://www.t206collector.com" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.t206collector.com</a> for Net54 T206 archive, signed deadball card galleries, articles and more!

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Barry, the rich already pay more tax and the poor already pay a smaller pecentage. And I think I read somewhere that the top 3% of earners in America pay like 50% of all income taxes (I'll check this out later as well as Al's question and post later). <br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>But Bush has been cutting the rich breaks since he came into office. That needs to stop.

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Posted By: <b>Todd Schultz</b><p><a href="http://voices.washingtonpost.com/fact-checker/2008/06/mccain_vs_obama_on_taxes.html" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://voices.washingtonpost.com/fact-checker/2008/06/mccain_vs_obama_on_taxes.html</a><br /><a href="http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/the_budget_according_to_mccain_part_i.html" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/the_budget_according_to_mccain_part_i.html</a><br /><a href="http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/the_budget_according_to_mccain_part_ii.html" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/the_budget_according_to_mccain_part_ii.html</a>

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Posted By: <b>Joe D.</b><p>okay... I am back in the discussion.<br /><br /><br />just a few musings......<br /><br />..... My wife - who as of right now will be voting for Obama - and I were talking about my son's 4th grade teacher. My wife was a little nervous about the teacher, because the teacher is new to the school and my wife wasn't sure if she was good or qualified. There was a parent teacher's meeting and it turns out the teacher was great. While discussing the teacher I all of a sudden saw a nice parallel to the election. I asked my wife..... "If this teacher had just 100 days of experience before deciding she wanted to teach our son's fourth grade class - you would be in the principal's office asking for a new teacher.... yet 100 days of experience before deciding he wants to lead our country - - and you are okay with that?!?!" No way she likes the idea of it for a fourth grade teacher of her son - - - I asked how is it possibly okay for the next president?<br /><br />..... Reverend Wright. With Obama's 'oh gosh, golly, I wasn't there and never heard it' - he lost my vote. Yes - I hold that resonse against him - because it is very telling on many levels. Funny how some would like us to not hold Reverend Wright against Obama.... yet they won't vote for McCain because of Bush. How does that happen?<br /><br />..... Al - I am with Jeff (somewhat) on the Tax statistics he mentioned. Higher taxes does not necessarily result in higher tax revenue by the government. Cutting taxes may actually increase the overall tax collected. Sounds funny, but it is similar to raising prices on a consumer product. At some point - you raise prices and actually discourage purchases and the result is lower revenue. At some point with taxes you stifle growth / business / etc. Its a tremendously complex animal way above my abilities. <b> In truth I tend to go with the democrats on this one as they are less apt to debt spend, or so it might seem</B> More than any of the candidate's policies - when it comes to economics, we have to hope the next president puts together a good team. And since I have seen Obama choose 'Mr. God Damn America' to be part of his campaign, and since I have seen him snub Hillary (which would have given him victory IMO).... I have to seriously question Obama's ability to choose the correct people when people need to be chosen.<br /><br /><br />great civil conversation.<br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>Joe:<br /><br />I'm not debating the merits of high tax vs. low tax. I'm also not trying to argue with Jeff - he's a top-tier criminal defense attorney and I'm a dumbass marketing guy with a laptop. I'm just trying to understand where Jeff got the info that he used to make the statement about Obama's planned massive tax increases, because I've never seen the statement made before by a person who's guided by facts. That's all.<br /><br />-Al

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Posted By: <b>Eric Pugh</b><p>I am a republican who is somewhat drawn to barack obama. HOWEVER, choosing biden over hillary was sooooo stupid. it speaks to the type of judgement obama would use in oval office. That - combined with his backwards tax plan and lack of real leadership experience - equates to me voting for mccain (in spite of the iraq debacle).

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Posted By: <b>Pennsylvania Ted</b><p>My dear friend, please....re-consider what you are saying here....you are too smart to seriously think this way.......<br /><br />"Tim- I've heard the argument before that the very rich will spend their wealth, thus helping everyone down the food chain.<br />But I'm not convinced it works."<br /><br /><br />Tell me then....do the poor people in this country provide jobs ? ?<br /><br />HECK NO....it is the wealthy that provide employment to millions of us....and damn it, they can't do it if the government taxes<br />the crap out of them ! ! ! ! !<br /><br /><br /><br /> <br />

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Posted By: <b>Tim</b><p>And right along the lines of what Ted just said. A lot of small business owners will get caught up in the $250,000 tax increase.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>It's real easy......if you make between $1.00 and 100 billion dollars a year you pay 22%.....the rich pay a million times more than the poor and everyone pays. There is no free ride.....Sorry about that Mr.Democrat....<br /><br /><br />My aunt ( a staunch Democrat ) is below the poverty line and doesn't pay anything and gets back money....I don't think that is good for America..(I do love my aunt, bless her heart....she is the only person I know that bounced a check to the Red Cross....)

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Barry,<br /><br />Everyone should pay the same percentage tax rate--its called the flat tax.<br /><br />Remember what a great president Reagan was. A lot of it was his 30% tax cut.<br /><br />The so called rich pay a higher percentage of taxes than they ever did.

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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>I spent four years in college as an econ major debating the following:<br /><br />Trickle down economics vs. tax and spend economics<br /><br />There is no "right" answer to this debate, but both sides utilize it to defend their positions. There are loads of good arguments on both sides and if you look at history, there are supportable historic examples for both sides. <br /><br />I kinda get worked up when I see someone defend their side to the death, because there is so much evidence on the other side. Ultimately, I think it is not useful to address these issues in such a black and white fashion. Simplifying argument is good for internet chat boards, but it doesn't really put us in any position to draw complex and appropriate conclusions.<br /><br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Joe D.</b><p>Al....<br /><br />I was more or less just happy to see a friendly name in the thread so I had to put a notation to you in my post <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />I too would like to know specifics of where Jeff received his information on the tax increases (good question). <br />I do agree with implication of Jeff's statistics though about the raising taxes... yet at the same time, like I mentioned, I tend to agree with a lot of democrats on economic issues. Its complicated.<br /><br />I will say that your post is a great one, expressed well, with civility, in this a heated subject -<br />I don't know that I could believe that you are "a dumbass marketing guy with a laptop".... <br />are you sure you have a laptop? <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>Well, Joe, if you must know, I did exaggerate a little. It's a laptop, yes, but I keep it hooked up to a docking station and use it like a desktop so I can view everything on a bigger monitor.<br /><br />But please - don't characterize me as "friendly." Makes me sound like a wimpy Democrat.<br /><br />-Al

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Ted - the rich who have been providing jobs for the poor have been dropping like flies...there are hundreds of thousands of jobs being lost and unemployment is at a dangerous level...our current plan hasn't worked lately. It's time for a change.<br /><br />Now Obama may in fact be incapable of changing anything, that is my fear...but I'm willing to take that chance.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Leon- why does your aunt live below the poverty line? Does she choose not to work, or are there simply no available jobs from which she can rise above of it?<br /><br />I too am against welfare; people who choose not to work don't deserve a free ride. But how about giving the poor a chance for affordable health insurance?. I pay my own insurance, I'm far from poor, and I find it disgusting what I have to fork over every month.<br /><br />How about making health insurance affordable for everyone? This country has the worst system on earth. Will that ever change?<br /><br />And let me add the minimum wage needs to increase, so that people who do work can live a little more comfortably (if you didn't work, it wouldn't apply).<br />

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Posted By: <b>Joe D.</b><p>edited out..... nm<br /><br /><br /><br />new analogy - sorry.... (wow barry you are fast)......<br /><br /><br />okay - barry... you are on an airplane midway between california and ny and very high up.<br />there is engine trouble. <br /><br />but don't worry.... the pilot gets on the PA and talks.<br />He is obviously a good talker.<br />And heck he has 100 days experience with airplanes - so... well.... you should feel just fine.<br /><br /><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Why couldn't a person with 100 days experience sell a baseball card? I have to tell you, it's not really difficult.<br /><br />I know, being president is more complicated than selling a card. Of course Obama is raw, there's no question about it. If he's president he either learns fast, or he fails. No argument there.<br /><br />Joe- I answered your question and you took it out. Now don't I look foolish? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Tim</b><p>"How about making health insurance affordable for everyone? This country has the worst system on earth. Will that ever change?"<br /><br />I agree that the healthcare system is horrible, but I don't think letting the goverment take over control of it is the answer.<br />

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Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>"Of course Obama is raw, there's no question about it."<br /><br />But Barry, if you get him graded, he'll be more liquid.<br /><br />-Al

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>She lives that way today as she is in extremely poor health and can't work. But, when she could work she had problems because of telling all of her bosses how to do their jobs. I love her but it was her fault. I am ok with doing the same thing with insurance as I am with taxes...everyone pays but I would let the poor pay less...even $1.00....but they have to pay something. If we don't make them pay then we are enabling them to continue to not do anything and us pay for it (all). My employer pays for part of my insurance and even with that I still pay almost $900 s month out my pocket for my family (wife and 1 child)....So I too am not happy about the way healthcare is...The minimum wage increased 2 mos, ago and will increase more over each of the next 2 yrs. To me it's stupid though....As a small business owner (same goes for large businesses too) guess what happens when I pay more in wages....YOU pay more for what I sell...It's a cycle and I don't confess to know the answer.....Good debate though...<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Tim- I agree the government could easily make a mess of health care reform. But I am genuinely concerned with the situation, since I pay for my own benefits. We've been doing it for about a year now and it's awful and it is getting worse. I don't have an answer, nor do I anticipate a solution from anybody.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Leon- is your aunt able to live comfortably in her current state? I assume she gets some government benefits...considering how ill she is, don't you think that's a good thing?

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Posted By: <b>Joe D.</b><p>okay.... In this thread I see great posts for each candidate....<br /><br /><br /><br />but in the end....<br /><br />I must vote for McCain because the Saturday Night Live skits will be much better if Palin is VP.<br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Joe- now that's the most compelling argument I've heard so far. It would get Tina Fey to make regular guest appearances.

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Posted By: <b>Tim</b><p>I would be happy watching Tina Fey every Saturday night.

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Posted By: <b>Pennsylvania Ted</b><p>The current 6.1% unemployment(U-E) rate is a number that the rest of the world's developed countries would "die" for.<br /><br />The average U-E rate these past 7 years of approx. 5% has been the lowest since WWII.<br /><br />The last bad U-E rate was in the Jimmy Carter (malaise) days when it went as high as 8 %.<br /><br />During the depression of 1929 the U-E rate was as high as 25%.<br /><br />So, I don't understand your comment ? ?<br /><br />Also, to your comments......<br />"How about making health insurance affordable for everyone? This country has the worst system on earth."<br /><br />We have the greatest Medical providing system, when compared with any other country in the World....the excessive<br />cost of health Insurance is primarily attributal to several factors. One of the major factors are the excessive frivolous<br /> libel suits. Doctors pay $100K-200K for malpractice insurance.<br /> While Dentists pay a fraction of that. It's a vicious cycle between the Insurance Co. and the Lawyers.<br /><br /><br />So, what we need is Health Insurance reform and Tax system reform.....Now, that is real "CHANGE". <br /><br /><br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>My aunt is on dialysis 3 days a week for 3-4 hours each time. Two weeks ago she had a triple bypass surgery. There is no way she could hold a job right this minute. So, for completely disabled folks (really disabled not like some folks claim to be)I am ok with helping them. I believe the vast majority of subsidies are NOT going to the folks that are really disabled but are going to folks that won't get a job as they will only make $1.00 more per hour (all things taken into account) than if they sit home and watch Oprah. They don't realize that by doing that they will never be able to move up the food chain. It's so fun watching TV when others are working.....(I am on an ex-con call as I type this <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>).....regards

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Sorry about your aunt's health issues. And we're in complete agreement that people who choose not to work but are able shouldn't get a dime.

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Posted By: <b>sagard</b><p><b>So, what we need is Health Insurance reform and Tax system reform.....Now, that is real "CHANGE".</b><br /><br />Are you really screaming for Hillary and Obama? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Truthfully I'd prefer an energy reform first. Russia and the middle east will continue to profit if we as Americans remain addicted to driving everywhere by ourselves. <br />

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Posted By: <b>Andrew Saboley</b><p>"it is the wealthy that provide employment to millions of us....and damn it, they can't do it if the government taxes<br />the crap out of them ! ! ! ! !"<br /><br />There have been massive job losses and fewer opportunities for employment with the capital gains taxes at these low levels during the Bush administration. Trickle-down economics is a ruse and always has been. It's all about the protection of obscene wealth. I am against all taxes....period, regardless of the level of personal wealth, and there are other ways to raise revenue without having any taxes. There wasn't any income tax before Wilson and they should abolish it and have the government raise revenue through selling their own products and organizing federal lotteries. <br />