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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Barry,<br /><br />Sorry I have not responded to you yet but if I found an album of T206 cards glued in a holder I would certainly not remove them as it goes against everything I believe and secondly I would probably sell it immediately to a person who promised not to take the cards out of their album and alter/restore the cards from their current condition. If noone would make this promise I would keep it myself in this condition.<br /><br />Secondly I have found that for 1948-68 and probably before that high grade collectors are more passionate about the hobby than low grade collectors but there are some pretty passionate people around here.<br /><br />Again just an opinion--if few agree with me at the end of the day, so be it.<br /><br />Jim
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Posted By: <b>scott brockelman</b><p>I am fully aware of problems in all grades of vintage cards, HOWEVER I can detect most of them. SO I am safe with my acquistions. I do not collect P-F cards, I collect scarce to very rare cards in the highest obtainable condition. <br /><br /><br />Again I am not being nasty, just trying to point out another collecting interest to you that is by far the driving force behind vintage cards increasing in price, not PSA 8's from post war sets.<br /><br />Scott
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Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>Scott, am I to understand from your prior post that you have three T206 Planks?<br /><br />-Al
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Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>Everyone else is right and I am wrong. Nice preface I'm hoping everyone agrees!<br />I just have one thing I would love to do, and that is make contact with a couple of the foremost paper conservators to ask their opinion on soaking card (as opposed to stamps, or other paper forms). Find out if my ramblings about higher water retention and any effects long term on the paper make sense, or are merely ramblings.<br />Anyone have recommendations of people of real note in that industry...I know a couple of excellent people - but not major names or those whose word and work carries prestige in the area. I would love to just shoot them off a quick email asking the simple question:<br /><br />What's your opinion on the effects long term to a piece of card used for printing advertising (say between the years 1880 - 1945), of soaking, and then drying that card between blotting paper (feel free anyone to tell me other forms of drying material you would prefer inserted here) and being pressed between some heavy books for a few days to complete the drying process......<br /><br />Would anyone else be interested in just the science and knowledge behind the practice, or is it just me?<br /><br /><br />Daniel
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Posted By: <b>scott brockelman</b><p>I still have 2 of the 3.<br /><br />See still seeking quality over quantity. And thanks for moderating the ongoing debate.<br /><br />Scott<br />
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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>Daniel,<br /><br />Finally, someone is trying to add logic to this argument. I really appreciate that. Please let me know what you find.<br /><br />Paul
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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Examples of Scott not being nasty:<br /><br />"People like yourself are the reason some people alter cards"<br /><br />"you are willing to pay ridiculous prices to satisfy your ego without learning what you are buying"<br /><br />"uneducated collector"<br /><br />"pop in tens of thousands and each card has a pop in the hundreds.<br /><br />Well that sounds nasty to me and you should apologize!<br /><br />And I never brag about my collection on this board. You have no right to question my knowledge or presume why I buy cards--as Al or anyone would tell you who collects graded cards I rarely overpay and am very careful what I spend.<br /><br />Jim
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Posted By: <b>scott brockelman</b><p>need I remind you of Jay Berens, my comments pale in comparison. I am merely trying to open your eyes to another HUGE segment of the hobby
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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Scott,<br /><br />You have an unusual style of opeing ones eyes--insult someone repeatedly you have never met before and miraculously they will see the light.<br /><br />And I was trying to educate you too.<br /><br />Jim
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Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>Following up on my post re asking paper conservators their opinions on soaking, I'm throwing out a couple of names I might give a try:<br /><br /><a href="http://www.graphicconservation.com/" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.graphicconservation.com/</a><br /><br /><a href="http://www.paconservatory.com/paper.aspx" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.paconservatory.com/paper.aspx</a><br /><br /><a href="http://www.garageannexschool.com/instructor_show.php?id=26" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.garageannexschool.com/instructor_show.php?id=26</a><br /><br /><br /><br />Any opinions or suggestions for other expert opinion?<br /><br /><br /><br />Daniel
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Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>Jim, I appologize to you if you took anything I said as a personal attack.<br /><br />So how do I shout down that statement about "backbone of the hobby" and the one about hobby and investment... Can't use words like foolish or worse...<br /><br /><br />If you want an investment, go check out some of the Franklin Funds. Or spend money on a child's education. For us, this is a hobby. And I am confident that PSA 8s aren't the backbone.<br /><br />Taking a thought from another thread, I took my Standard Catalog with me a few minutes ago, and looked at the Acknowledgments page. Lots of names there. Lots of folks here. I don't know all of the folks here. Brockleman, Goodman, Luckey, Macrae, Sloate, me, Warshaw, Zanidakis are listed. And a few other folks I've met who I don't see posting here, Ewing, Goodwin, Koehler, Lipset... I really don't think any of those guys focus on PSA -8s. And I do think those guys are some of the hobby's vertebrae. Alan Rosen is in the Acknowledgments, he might collect PSA 8 stuff, I just don't know. Always turned and walked the other way when I saw him at shows.<br /><br /><br />What I would really like to know is if T Bob is glad that he soaked his Zeenut. Bob, if you're still out there, how do you feel about it now? Was it ok?? Not the madness of this thread, but the unaltering of that altered Zeenut you bought... how was that.<br /><br />Peace, Jim. And sincerely, I intended nothing personal. It is/was all focused at that idea.
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Posted By: <b>scott brockelman</b><p>Jim,<br /><br />I hate to tell you this, but you bring so much of this upon yourself. You start these threads with your personal agenda deeply rooted in your mind and want to argue with the other 99% of the board. <br /><br />Once again. WE DON'T SEE IT YOUR WAY.<br /><br />occasionally you pick up a friend for the ride, but by and far you are bucking the mainstream. <br /><br />Scott<br /><br />
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Posted By: <b>Dan Koteles</b><p>and if the backbone of the hobby were affixed to 60's, 70's in 8 holders , why is this PRE WAR site hit with many posters and lurkers by the THOUSANDS daily ?...certainly isnt for the Joe Morgan RC in a boring 8 holder.
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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Daniel- a trained paper conservator could soak cards out of an album without doing any damage to them. They are taught the proper techniques. They would use a solution that would not hurt the cards, and would actually remove any acids that could destroy the paper over the long term. Many work on restoring and repairing rare documents and photographs, so taking a card out of an album would be a slow day for them.
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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Scott,<br /><br />I can see you are not apologizing for attacking me--it speaks poorly of you--go attack away--would you like me to tell me some more things about me so you can continue to demean me???<br /><br />Or why don't you keep bragging about your cards.<br /><br />I love how you try to take comfort in that you are in the majority and try to isolate me--you are a pretty insecure guy.<br /><br />Good luck<br /><br />JIm
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Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>I didn't view Scott's post as bragging, but rather as explainging what he collects.<br /><br />One of the things I collect are the Metro Studio photos. No PSA 8s out there on those. I have a mailing envelope for them that might be a PSA 0.5 Realistically I try to refrain from collecting anything slabbed. I'm the slimy belly of the hobby.<br /><br />Claiming to collect only PSA 8 stuff seemed a bit more like bragging to me, than Scott's post did.
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Posted By: <b>scott brockelman</b><p>I never insulted you in any way. I brought to light that which you choose to collect, are you embarassed in some way. You need not be, there are many that appreciate your collection. You have just chosen to bring it to the wrong forum. <br /><br /><br /><br />Do not try to make this personal, it's not.<br /><br />Scott
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Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>Barry,<br />I'm not interested so much in whether a paper conservator can successfully remove a card from a scrapbook, but more what their opinion is on submerging/soaking a card in water and drying it in ways mentioned in this thread. <br />Those are two different things in my expectation. I would fully believe that he/she has specialist tools, chemicals, and proffessional knowledge that he would apply when undertaking the task. I actually don't believe he would ho hum the job if paid for such a removal, but would do all the necessary fact finding to understand what he was working with and apply the correct measures.<br /><br />I am far more interested in what a conservator would think of Joe Shmo taking his 75+ year old cards and tossing them in the bath tub, and drying them with books and absorbent materials, and whether a process like that would have a longer term effect than might be initially realized.<br /><br />Kind regards<br />Daniel
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Posted By: <b>Tom Boblitt</b><p>PSA8 = Backbone of the hobby<br />PSA7 = Shoulder of the hobby<br />PSA6 = Elbow of the hobby<br />PSA5 = Kneecap of the hobby<br />PSA4 = Foot of the hobby<br />PSA3 = Heel of the hobby<br />PSA2 = Toe of the hobby<br />PSA1 = Tailbone of the hobby<br /><br />I'm pretty much between foot and elbow most of the time......<br />Occasionally a heel (at least so my wife says).....<br />Rarely a toe....
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Posted By: <b>Judson Hamlin</b><p>You all get a time out. This is like watching my seven year old and four year old snipe at one another over sensless nothings, and then tattletale on each other.<br />We all have our niche in this hobby/business and whether it is the type of card, grade of card, player or whatever other criterea we all look for, as long as we enjoy our own little corner of it all, why do we have to pee in each other's Wheaties? I've never soaked a card, mostly out of fear that I would damage it and I wouldn't be able to enjoy it, but the thought that I may have bought a soaked card doesn't infuriate me. I can see how a collector/investor, operating in a higher end than I, would want that information as part of the decision-making process. Restoration is an acccepted and often necessary element of preserving documents and books, and many early works have been lost due to deterioration of inks or from decompostion due to the acid content of paper, especially in the 19th century. Any restoration work, whether to a comic book or a 17th century map is generally noted by sellers and goes into the buyer's personal calculation as to value and desireability. There are buyers who would rather have a worm-holed original than a reinforced, restored, more pristine copy of the same document and vice versa. Not good/bad or right/wrong.<br /><br />You can come out of your rooms now, but no poking.<br /><br />edited for long weekend grammar. And stay on your side of the forum.
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Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>He's looking at me.
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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Scott,<br /><br />You have a convenient way of forgetting your own insults which I conveniently summarized and repeatedly trying to make this a Jim vs the board scenario--how sad.<br /><br />I have a substantial prewar collection and I would be pleased to talk about it but unlike you i am not going to brag about it.<br /><br />You need to open your eyes a little Scott and express your views without insulting others.<br /><br />Again you could apologize and that would be the end of it.<br /><br />Jim
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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Tom,<br /><br />You forgot:<br /><br />PSA 9 The Brains of the Hobby<br /><br />PSA 10 The Head of the Hobby
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Posted By: <b>Tom Boblitt</b><p>'whats next for the hobby' policing activities, jury's still out on heads and brains at the PSA9/PSA10 level.......
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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Tom,<br /><br />Dinner after the first of the year with Barry, Mike, Jay.Al, Wonka me and hopefully Paul unless i pissed him off too much tonight.<br /><br />I am going to try to build a consensus even though I am told i have strong views.<br /><br />After dinner there are a number of people outside NYC who want to be involved in fixing the hobby. We will handle this through phone calls.<br /><br />We will poll people on Net54 on what we are deciding along the way.<br /><br />Jim<br /><br /><br /><br />
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Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>As amazing as it may seem to some, people outside of NYC eat, too....<br /><br /><br />And someone has their PSA 10 stuck so far up their PSA 0 that they can't see reality.
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Posted By: <b>DJ</b><p>Daniel,<br /><br />No where did I attack you, nor should you have attacked my questions with your immature (not surprising) response. "Sound all that endowed - with knowledge?" That's a laugher. Maybe I'm trying to better understand what kind of a collector you are and see where you are coming from. <br /><br />A lot of us began collecting maybe before you were born (who knows, I don't know you) and this thread is simply maddening as over the past month, the triple figure threads have been heated debates where, well, a lot of us simply think the "ilovepsa8" club is simply insane in the way they view the current hobby. Too each is own, collect what you will. <br /><br />Of course, all the hobby vets (and posters) are full of crap because they differ with your view, right?<br /><br />This thread was started by a gentlemen wanting advice and turned into soaking versus non-soaking procedures and if it lead to that, so fine, be it, if so it should be answered once and only once and it should not be nasty.<br /><br />What do you think of soaking?<br />1) It's fine.<br />2) I don't like it...it's not fine<br />End of story. <br /><br />I put my opinion (1) and let it be. <br /><br />DJ<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />
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Posted By: <b>Tom Boblitt</b><p>if 'fixing the hobby' meant exposing 25% of your PSA8 cards had been altered, what would be your solution? Would it be worth that 'hit' to you cards. If they were exposed as altered would you sell them? Would you disclose it? Purely hypothetical, of course. Interested in your answers.
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Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>25% sounds like an underestimated, to me... a sharp cornered tobacco card almost certainly was flourpasted to a scrapbook. Now my Johnson ready to pitch with rounded corners and a pinhole at the top, that guy hasn't been stretched, bleached, nor built up; and soaking is doubtful. Seems to me that almost all PSA 8s and PSA brains and PSA heads would have been soaked. Maybe stretched and micotrimmed, too. So a fellow collecting only PSA 8s, brains and heads would most certainly be collecting only altered cards. Might be likely that a fellow with that collecting style would have more altered cards in his collection than I have in mine. But he'd never beleive it.
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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Is this thread the most tiresome since the NY dinner thread?
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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Only when Frank and DJ chime in--especially frank who does his best to get his digs in at me with every single post--get a life Frank.<br /><br />Don't know nor do I care about how many cards I have that are altered--as eberyone has told me impossible to know so I am happy--especially with the huge prices psa 8s are going for in pre-war which is all of my pre-war collection except for maybe 40 9s and a couple of 10s. don't want to buy any more though.<br /><br />Jim
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Posted By: <b>JK</b><p>"Papers worst enemy is fire."<br /><br />I know it was posted a while ago, but man was that a funny post.
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Posted By: <b>JK</b><p>"were you insinuating that grading companies are OK with people soaking cards? maybe some soaked cards have "slid" by the graders, but i guarentee if the grading companies are asked about "soaking", they would consider that altering a card...guaranteed."<br /><br />MV - I have to disagree. I have had specific discussions with one particular grading company about this issue and was told they had no problem with soaking in water. Perhaps they were only saying that because they know its undetectable, but I doubt it. The reason I doubt it is because the grading companies continue to grade cards with obvious attempts to erase pencil marks - in other words, they grade cards that you undoubtably would consider altered with knowledge of the alteration - which begs the question: Do they really believe it to be an alteration. Here is a card I used to own - a good example as it had pencil marks on the reverse that someone clearly tried to erase at some point in time, yet there it is, sitting in a slab:<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://i40.photobucket.com/albums/e211/jkrasner2/1887N28KeefebMedium.jpg">
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Posted By: <b>cmoking</b><p>Scott wrote: "I still have 2 of the 3, sold one of them, FOR A REASON that many will be shocked by, it had been ALTERED!, I bought it in a holder from a world renowned auction house. And apparently neither cared that a paper wrinkle had been partially spooned out. "<br /><br />Wow! How come no one followed up on this? This is the most interesting part of this whole thread. <br /><br />Scott, can you give us details, please?<br />- which auction hosue sold it?<br />- which card is it?<br />- how could you tell about the paper wrinkle being partially spooned out? do you have a scan? I'm trying to understand the wording: if it was fully spooned out, does that mean it would be undetectable? So when you say partially spooned out, does that mean the unwrinkling job was a poor one? Or does that mean the wrinkle came back? Or does it mean something else?<br /><br /><br /><br />
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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Just to be the first on Monday morning to continue this maddening thread:<br /><br />Jeff- the NYC dinner thread is still the Rolls Royce of all Net54 threads; it has reached mythic proportions, like Dimaggio's hitting streak or Wilt's 100 point game- it's simply untouchable.<br /><br />DJ- anytime you go to the main board and see a triple digit response you know a brawl is in the making. You don't even have to read it.<br /><br />Daniel- no, a paper conservator would not approve of throwing a acrapbook in a bathtub and pressing cards between blotter paper and a book, although what he would do would resemble that process. He would just use the proper solutions as per his training.
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Posted By: <b>Dylan</b><p>I didnt read every post but many... anyways i understand getting residue off a card, but from what ive gathered you can soak a card to actually lengthin it? How does that work, and how much length can be added?
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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>What people are saying is that if you press a card hard enough, its edges would theoretically lengthen, thus giving you an opportunity to trim it back to the right size, this time with sharper edges/corners.
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Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>Well I just got done with some soaking. 2 1933 Goudey cards. I'd been told years ago, by a very wise experienced collector who used to put scrapbook pages in a bathtub at night so the cards would be off by morning, anyway he said Goudeys wouldn't soak well. Dan Mc told me they would soak just fine. Dan was right. Paper scrap is gone from the back of Sam Rice, I can read the green print!!! And gobs of altering paste are now gone from Red Lucas. Thank you, Dan, thank you water.<br /><br />Now if I can find my Combs Goudey, it was almost solid paste, the card was twice its normal thickness. He needs a soaking. He'd been segregated because of the paste, and I've misplaced him. With a good soaking I can unalter him back to his original state and put him with his fellow Goudeys.<br /><br />And I got an email from Rob, the daddy of this post. I asked him how he now felt about his soaking experience (the card, not this monsterous thread), and he said, "Hi Frank, yes very satisfied. Bob" Another soaker swells our ranks! Might get T-shirts printed for the National, with a T206 half imursed in a glass of water.<br /><br /><br />And a final last thought, since I'll read but post no more here... The grading companies LOVE soaking. Think it through. Who'll grade a card with scrapbook on the back? Hardly anyone. But after soaking, the companies will have many more cards being sent in for grading. They truly love it. Where will the PSA 8s come from if not for soaking???<br />
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Posted By: <b>Dan KOteles</b><p>steaming to many veggies over the sewer holes ?.....and dont you's<br />pronounce "New York ", "New Yuk" ?
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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>It's more like "New Yawk", but I'm from Brooklyn. We have our own language.
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Posted By: <b>Dan KOteles</b><p>you are an achieved educator.
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Posted By: <b>Bob Pomilla</b><p>"Brooklyn. We have our own language."<br /><br />As in the famous example: Hurt hoit (Hoyt hurt).
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Posted By: <b>Max Weder</b><p>Barry<br /><br />You stated: "the NYC dinner thread is still the Rolls Royce of all Net54 threads; it has reached mythic proportions, like Dimaggio's hitting streak or Wilt's 100 point game- it's simply untouchable."<br /><br />Didn't both the Moraine thread and the Bonds thread hit 350+? Or perhaps again we're talking about quality, rather than quantity...<br /><br />Max,<br /><br />Noting that Wilt spent his summers in Vancouver, no doubt adding to his other record.
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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Max- I was measuring it in terms of looniness. Threads that go into triple digits usually involve a controversial topic. For something as benign as a dinner get-together to end like it did was the most bizarre thread we ever had.
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Posted By: <b>Ted Zanidakis</b><p>The EPDG.....thread has 362 posts and there is not a single "looney" post (to use your adjective)<br /> in it. It consists of meaningful info (for us T206 "nuts") and many surveys in which many Forum<br />members participated in.<br /><br />Also, there was a 100+ post Thread on the E90-1 set, in which a lot of useful info was shared by<br /> many. It too, was devoid of any "looney" posts.<br /><br />We can be civil with each other if we stick to the Topic of BB cards....the art or challenge of col-<br />lecting these Vintage cards....and, it really captures the interest and imagination of many. <br /><br />T-Rex TED
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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Ted- fair point. Not all long threads involve fighting, but many do.
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Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>Here is a very interesting non-technical site with information on preservation of paper items:<br /><br /><a href="http://www.hrc.utexas.edu/about/conservation/resources/faq/#mold2" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.hrc.utexas.edu/about/conservation/resources/faq/#mold2</a><br /><br />The main issues with paper are light, pollution and moisture that falls outside normal ambient ranges due to the acidic reaction they trigger. Paper conservators soak, clean and dry paper items all the time; I doubt that museums would do it if it was not possible to do safely. <br /><br />On a more general note, I find it interesting that nearly every thread about card preservation, restoration and the like quickly degenerates into a fight over whether the collector of slabbed 7-8-9-10 cards has more on the ball than a collector of unslabbed cards. These arguments over whose kung fu is mightier don't go anywhere, so CUT IT OUT!!! I also find it interesting that the debate on the actual point of this post coalesces around the question of what the slabbing companies do or don't do and what they can detect or not detect. It appears that a large number of collectors have ceded personal responsibility for their collecting decisions to the slabbing companies. For those collectors that may be the right decision and I understand why they would fiercely defend their chosen methodology for valuing and assessing their collections. However, what I want to point out is that not everyone agrees with the slabbing companies' underlying assumptions as to what constitutes an acceptable card, and that in the spirit of discussion, we as a group should not be so quick to simply adopt wholesale the underlying assumptions of the slabbing companies. I have long maintained that conservation principles from the art world should be applied to cards.
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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>I agree with Adam wholeheartedly. You can remove cards from an album without looking over your shoulder to see if PSA or SGC approves.
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Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>The problem that I have with adopting conservation principles from the art world to the card hobby is that in the art world, in a lot of cases, you're dealing with a one-of-a-kind item. In the card hobby, you're dealing with (usually) one of many examples of a card, where their value relative to one another is based on condition.<br /><br />So not knowing much about art, I would imagine that a Van Gogh is a Van Gogh, and it's the only one. And part of the importance of owning it involves preserving it in such a way that it will last a long time, and be subject to environmental conditions that are beneficial to the paper, the paint, etc. It was painted, and once it was painted, it's complete. Should it get smoke damage from a fire, or someone spill ketchup or beer or whatever on it, it needs to be restored, otherwise it will be lost to history with no remaining copies available.<br /><br />Cards, on the other hand, were mass produced and mostly given to children. My T206 Frank Chance is worth less than a nicer version of the same card, because the nicer version was ostensibly better preserved over the last 100 years or so. But there are probably thousands of these floating around; this is not a Van Gogh.<br /><br />Should I pay $100 for my VG copy, then go out and spend $500 on a NMT copy, only to find that the NMT copy was once as ratty as my VG but has been stretched and trimmed, with color and gloss added to the card to make it nice and spiffy, then the reality is that the VG copy has stood the test of time better. The $500 investment becomes a sham, because the $400 difference between the two is based, essentially, on the deception of the alterer.<br /><br />That being said, I can't make the leap and say that I feel that stretching, trimming, adding color and reglossing is the same as wetting a piece of paper in order to get a card out of a scrapbook intact, or wetting the back of a card to get gunk or glue off it. To me, there is very little difference between wiping dirt off a card with my finger and wiping dirt off a wet card with a Q-tip.<br /><br />I've told this story before: years ago I won two 1965 Topps Willie McCovey cards in an auction lot. They were both beautiful cards, but one of them had a glop of chocolate on the front of it, about the diameter of a nickel. One day, while shuffling through my cards, a little chunk of the chocolate fell off. I stopped for a second, then I kinda rubbed the front of the card with my thumb. All the chocolate popped right off the card, in about two seconds. I wiped it with the sleeve from my shirt, and it looked good as new. Now it's an SGC 88, and a fixture in my HOF collection. The other one I bought, which had no chocolate on it, was an SGC 84 that I sold. Should I feel guilty about rubbing off the chocolate? Most people say "no". So what's the difference, then, if I use water to accomplish the same thing?<br /><br /><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1165868968.JPG"> <br /><br />And no, I did not eat the chocolate.<br /><br />-Al
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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Hey Guys,<br /><br />I didn't know there was this much expertise on this board on the topic of card soaking. Maybe you guys should start a new thread called Card Doctors Anonymous. Laugh out loud.<br /><br />Peter
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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>But Al- I will repeat the same thing I have been saying throughout this thread: what if you simply prefer to take the cards out because you don't choose to have them in a scrapbook? I am not advocating trimming, pressing, dry cleaning, simonizing, or any other nefarious practice. One might simply prefer to have them loose rather than glued in. It's no more complicated than that. The issue seems to be that someone might try to sneak them past the grading service and get the cards encapsulated. That's a separate issue. Not everybody likes their cards glued onto pages. Removing them is a time tested practice. It's no big deal.
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>Barry, in the middle of my verbosity, I said that I didn't have a problem with it, either. Sometimes my words trip over one another in their rush to get out of my brain and thus become more difficult to understand.<br /><br />I guess I probably have between 60 and 70 T206s, and very few of them are graded. I've taken paper off the back of a few, and I've cleaned gunk off a few more. They're mostly not Cobbs, Mattys, and Youngs; they're Schleis, Reulbachs and Elberfelds. I just think they look nicer when they're clean, and when I can read the back. It has nothing whatsoever to do with "getting them past" a grading company. <br /><br />I submit cards for grading sometimes; I "prep" them by putting them in Card Savers. I'm generally not submitting cards to get the highest possible grade, I'm submitting them to get the most ACCURATE grade. Most of the time I'm already happy with the card, and I want to get it into a slab for the purpose of uniformity. I allow myself one exception to this - 1938 Goudey - where I'm actually building a higher-grade set. Aside from that set, the number means very little to me if I'm happy with the way the card looks. If I buy a card and it has paper on it - like a recent T206 Cy Young I bought - I'll soak the paper off it. The Young I'm referring to won't grade any higher without the paper, I don't think, but I'll be able to read the back. That's all.<br /><br />-Al<br /><br />Edited to add "mostly".
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>David Vargha</b><p><font color=blue>Nothing new to add . . . I just wanted to see if could get the last post on this thread.</font><br><br>DavidVargha@hotmail.com
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Yeah, maybe the last post at 6:24 pm.<br /><br />Now how can we carefully segue into a discussion about dinner in Manhattan? It's all that this thread needs to push it over the top!
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Jeff- it's quite easy. First, ask each New Yorker who wants to attend to list his five favorite restaurants. Then from that group of seventy different, all we have to do is get everybody to agree on one of them. Shouldn't take more than 5-10 minutes.
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>1. del posto<br />2. four seasons<br />3. morimoto's<br />4. arturo's<br />5. tu ve bein<br /><br /><img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14>
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>there aren't 5 good restaurants to pick from <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Barry, I'm feeling a lot of pressure regarding this request for 5 restaurants. I'm thinking you're really jamming this down my throat. Next thing you'll ask me to consider a weekend for this dinner. You NYers are all the same!
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>Griffins</b><p><<<we'd have so much easier of a time in LA<br />December 11 2006, 8:28 PM <br /><br />there aren't 5 good restaurants to pick from >><br /><br />Adam-<br />That's because you're on the wrong side of the hill- drive 15 minutes south!
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Yes Jeff, we've come full circle. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>Judson Hamlin</b><p>Barry, your sarcasm is dripping through my computer screen... but if it helps hijack the thread:<br /><br />1. Grocery<br />2. The burger place in the Parker Meridien<br />3. The Old Homestead<br />4. Puglia's<br />5. Solera<br />5a. Otto's Luncheonette (if it's still there)
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>Mike</b><p>I just returned home from New York over the weekend. An excellent place for y'all to go is to Accapella on Chambers Street, pricey and sort of small, but excellent Northern Italian food. <br /> Mike
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Barry, based on the past few posts, we are very, very close to melding the NY dinner thread with the soaking thread. If this is accomplished, I'm afraid the universe might blow up.
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Can we have backbone for dinner?
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>Let's all go to Grey's Papaya for a hot dog and a banana smoothie. Best restaurant in the city, as far as I'm concerned.<br /><br />-Al
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>MVSNYC</b><p>...here is the official post where we merge the two threads...<br /><br />let's pick a restaurant in NYC and each bring a common T206 beater which has just been ripped out of an album, and have the waiter bring us pellegrino...and...you guessed it...<br /><br />we'll have a "soaking party" in NYC!!! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Leon, the backbone is the PSA 5 part of the cow. We will only accept PSA 8 and up parts of the animal.
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>DMcD</b><p>Any truth to the rumour that Bonds uses steroids?
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>Bob Pomilla</b><p>"each bring a common T206 beater"<br /><br />MVSNYC: Why shove T206's down our throats?? Why not T205's or T207's? I say we take a vote ;^) (amateurish attempt at smiley face).
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>Max Weder</b><p>And of course, "soaking" was a way to get an out in the Massachusetts game, which of course did not find favor in the 19th baseball wars <a href="http://www.baseball-almanac.com/ruletown.shtml" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.baseball-almanac.com/ruletown.shtml</a><br /><br /><img src="http://www.baseball-almanac.com/townball.jpg"><br /><br />"Basetenders (infielders) and scouts (outfielders) recorded outs by plugging or soaking runners — a term used to describe hitting the runner (tagging them did not count) with the ball."<br /><br />Max<br /><br />
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>JK</b><p>Its awfully presumptuous of you to think that we will just hop on a plane and come to New York for a dinner. How about a little consideration for the rest of us who arent privileged enough to reside in the NY. You can make it up by arranging for a dinner in each state. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>
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Posted By: <b>Jerry Hrechka</b><p> My passion is NonSports. If you want to build PSA Sets, the real challenge is not in just opening your checkbook and buying cards that have been already graded. Find the cards raw and submitt them. Nothing sweeter than scoring a top graded card. Here are just a few of my submissions:<br />1. HOW #66 - PSA6 - Sub #567517 - Pop. 1/2 with none higher<br />2. HOW #288 - PSA5 - Sub #437547 - Pop. 1/5 with none higher<br />3. Uncle Sam #39 - PSA7 - Sub # 580002 - Pop. 1/1 with none higher<br />4. Uncle Sam #95 - PSA8 - " " " " " "<br />5. WIA Airplanes #14 - PSA7 - Sub #4375425 Pop. 1/1 with none higher.<br /><br /> The Zip on all is 12754.<br />My suggestion to everyone is submit the cards yourself. Find them raw, grade them and then allow the Grading Cos. the privigle agreeing with your judgement. Then you won't have to worry about trimming, pressing, altering or dry cleaning.
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>I created this monster of a thread when I asked about the removal of a foreign object from the back of a card I had just purchased. I had no idea of the firestorm it would cause. I doubt if many will even read this as they probably gave up on the thread a long time ago. I just want to say one thing: I soaked one card to remove the foreign object which did not exist when the card was produced. I am not aware of any other cards in my collection which have been soaked or altered, but then again I do not own any PSA 8s or 9s or SGC 88s or 92s in prewar cards. If I did, I would then own cards I knew had probably been soaked or altered. I own cards like an M116 Walter Johnson which looks exmt but has notebook paper on the back and was so slabbed by me and got a horrible grade. Such is the reality of things. <br />I feel like anyone who slings any muddy aspersions at me for soaking a Zeenut or arrogantly claims to be more true to the spirit of the hobby is, well, an idiot. Sorry, that's my feeling. I just can't get over the fact that if you collect only high grade cards, and bless your hearts for doing so, you are somehow a "better hobbyist." Bull hockey! If you collect only high grade cards you are collecting many cards which have in the past been soaked, stretched, laser cut or altered in some manner. If you collect cards in vg or less, the chances are very good your cards have NOT been altered by trimming, stretching, laser cutting, etc. So who is the "purist" and who is not?<br /><br /><I have said that before on here--I believe it to be true--the low-to-mid grade collector is becoming less and less important to the hobby in my judgment.><br /><br />Jim, we have never met and neither of us knows each other or anything about each other. If you want to spout off about your opinions, that is definitely your right. But when you utter something which I think is utter nonsense, something which would have hobby pioneers like Frank Nagy, Buck Barker, etc. spinning in their graves, I feel have I a right to disagree. Long after the collectors or investors in slabbed high grade "commodities" have tired of the market and disposed of their cards, the collectors of cards who are thrilled to own a piece of history, even if in poor, fair, good or very good condition (or even excellent) will still be there collecting. <br />Jim, when you make a statement like he above, you lose all credibility with me. <br /><br />Oh by the way, the attitudes expressed in this post by both sides of the argument have convinced me that if the situation arises again, I'd do the same thing. I would NEVER trim, re-color, stretch, spoon or otherwise alter a card but if a card comes to me like the Zeenut with paper stuck to the back. I'll soak it and you know what, I won't lose a minute of sleep. <br />Just my 2 cents from Vegas where the wife and I ar spending our 35th anniversary together...<br />
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>steve f</b><p>Congrats to Mrs T and yourself. Have fun in Lost Wages, you rascal. <br /><br />PS; Glad this thread is a has been.
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>John S</b><p>Congrats Bob...I think most of us agree with your sentiments regarding the hobby. The backbone of the hobby should be the 10-year old buying cards at the local drug store.
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Posted By: <b>WP</b><p>I agree with Al, Grays can't be beat. 2 dogs and a papaya $2.50.
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>Rich Klein</b><p>Now I'm wistfully back at 72 and Broadway (or close enough) and can smell the hot dogs. Shoot, I'd take a knish from a street vendor<br /><br />When I was in college, there was a pizza place 10 blocks (1/2 mile) away from campus which had a 2 slice (HUGE) and a drink for $1.<br /><br />Man, can we go back to those prices<br /><br />Rich<br /><br />P.S. Typing this while I have some OLD CBS-FM MP3's playing on the computer
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>Richard</b><p>I finally carved an hour out of my life that I would never get back to sit down and read this thread.<br /><br />Two questions, one of which was asked by King before, that I am hoping will be answered:<br /><br />1) Scott - Which of the t206 planks was altered? how did you detect the alteration? did the crease come back? which auction house was involved? is the card still currently slabbed?<br /><br />2) Dan - The 1952 Mantle that you glued back together with elmers and was graded a 2, which company graded it? is the gluing together undetectable (must be)? <br /><br />
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>Greg</b><p>Wow, what an interesting thread.<br /><br />Having preserved or "restored" numerous antique, one of a kind, lithographs over the years through paper conservators, (all of which were very expensive to do I might ad) I'm amazed at how much controversy a little water can stir up.<br /><br />I've always wondered.... purely from the point of view from how we should preserve 90 year old paper... is sticking a beautiful little antique piece of paper between two slices of cheap plastic and throwing a graded sticker on them "altering" these cards? Seems to me this practice is much more blatant a visual alteration than a little bit of water. <br /><br />Maybe if grades and the prices that are placed on them weren't so important to the slightest extremes none of this would matter, but, then again, I'm pretty new to cards, having more of history and background in emphera. Rare to me means there are only one or two known to exist, not 10 or 12 out of 600 that have a little sharper corner than the rest. <br /><br />I'm sure I'm gonna take flak for that comment...oh well.<br /><br />greg
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About soaking cards
Posted By: <b>Max Weder</b><p>As Greg has done, I have engaged paper conservators to restore paper (in my case books, especially dust jackets.) When I sell a restored book, I always make full and complete disclosure of the restoration work that has been done.<br /><br />Here's an example from the conservators I use, who do restoration work for the Vancouver and Seattle Art galleries (from their website; it is not my document)<br /><br /><br /><a href="http://fsrconservation.com/3con4treat.php#paper2" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://fsrconservation.com/3con4treat.php#paper2</a><br /><br />Before:<br /><br /><img src="http://fsrconservation.com/images/docfront-b.jpg"><br /><br />After:<br /><br /><img src="http://fsrconservation.com/images/docfront-a.jpg"><br />Max<br /><br />
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