The long awaited PSA half grade!
 

Posted By: <b>Corey R. Shanus</b><p>Inasmuch as you have been on the forefront of the crusade to rid the hobby of slabbed altered cards, respectfully, I have three questions:<br /><br />1. Will you be submitting all your 8's from all your issues?<br /><br />2. Is there any understanding with PSA, implicit or explicit, that they will not look for alterations?<br /><br />3. If PSA should find an altered card for whatever reason, will they under any circumstances not remove it from circulation in its current graded slab?

The long awaited PSA half grade!
 

Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>Jim exactly what type (how much) did Joe give you? Do you think getting a sweetheart deal is fair to all the other collectors? Also, do you think it wise to boast about it? And will you be sending in every card? Or will you weed out those you feel are not worthy of a bump?<br /><br />Steve

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Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>Seems to me any rational person, if offered a deal whereby the cost will be far less than the likely incremental increase in value, would take PSA up on their offer. Particularly where there is a devaluation cost to doing nothing.

The long awaited PSA half grade!
 

Posted By: <b>Eric B</b><p>Jim is one of PSA's best customers, he got a nice deal, and they agreed not to disclose it. Stop asking what the deal was!<br /><br />Does anyone know any business in America that does not cater towards their best customers? They all do and they should. As long as the deal is monetary and not "wink wink - we're going to upgrade them all" then it's a good business decision.

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Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>Maybe if Jim did not want to be asked that question it would have been wiser not to mention it? And not to argue but does Jim submit cards for grading? Or does he simply buy them on the scondary market? <br /><br />And of course I understand that a company can offer any customer whatever deal they choose.<br /><br /><br />Steve

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Posted By: <b>Chuck Ross</b><p>If I was running a company that was making a move sure to cause an uproar, it would make good sense to buy the approval of those that others "look to for guidance"

The long awaited PSA half grade!
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>The answer to everyone's questions is simple: money. If PSA did a true regrading of all cards submitted for the bump up there would be less submissions and less revenue for PSA -- and no one has ever accused PSA of being more concerned about the integrity of card grading than its bottom line. If Jim thought he'd lose a half grade or more he wouldn't bother submitting some or all of his cards -- which means since he is in a win/win situation financially here. If Jim thought there was even a chance that his cards would be deemed altered upon the bump-up review he wouldn't send them in for fear of losing money. <br /><br />It's a perfect marriage, really, between collector and grading company.

The long awaited PSA half grade!
 

Posted By: <b>MikeU</b><p>"If I was running a company that was making a move sure to cause an uproar, it would make good sense to buy the approval of those that others "look to for guidance""<br /><br />They did not get Jim's approval/input prior to the announcement!<br />

The long awaited PSA half grade!
 

Posted By: <b>Jason L</b><p>Peter S writes:<br />"Seems to me any rational person, if offered a deal whereby the cost will be far less than the likely incremental increase in value, would take PSA up on their offer. Particularly where there is a devaluation cost to doing nothing."<br /><br />Exactly! And the problem is that since this "deal" isn't available to all collectors, we now have an explicit admission that the grading business is not objective. Therefore, the entire premise has now fallen apart.<br /><br />PSA is now forcing collectors to buy new holders. As if to say, "you know what, we didn't know what we were doing before, you better re-submit that."<br />

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Posted By: <b>Charles</b><p>Jim, <br /><br />I sure hope that deal includes some way to circumvent the submission forms. If you average 30 seconds a line, it would still take you over seven and a half days working continuously to complete the forms.

The long awaited PSA half grade!
 

Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>If PSA has given Jim such a great deal for his 22,000 plus cards to be reviewed, we all should be able to send (on a one time basis) our combined 500,000 plus cards even cheaper than what Jim was able to get if PSA really wanted to help all of thier loyal collectors. Let's face it, this is all about greed and making more money during tuff economic times.<br /><br />This is really very upsetting for collectors that have stand by PSA thru thick and thin (Wiwag) during all of these years.<br /><br />I hope PSA reconsiders their position on this decision and give every collector at least, a one time special offer, no matter the size of thier collection. <br /><br />Always looking for 1915 Cracker Jack PSA 7 & 8's. Maybe now in 7.5 & 8.5, I guess!

The long awaited PSA half grade!
 

Posted By: <b>bill latzko</b><p>Does that mean you are NOT looking for 1915 Cracker Jack Psa 7.5 and psa 8.5's??? (I thought it was funny, couldn't resist!)

The long awaited PSA half grade!
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Steve,<br /><br />Not boasting I a special deal--just mentioning it as this is why it makes sense for me.<br /><br />Mike is correct--I was not consulted in advance but got a call from Joe a week ago setting up a call today between us.<br /><br />Jeff--you are a smart guy--seriously.<br /><br />Corey--I have answwered this and you know this announcement has nothing to do with alterations<br /><br />Al--if you really are confused and not just trying to embarass me then send me an e-mail.

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Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>fair enuff Jim, thanks for answering me.<br /><br /><br />Steve

The long awaited PSA half grade!
 

Posted By: <b>cmoking</b><p>Jim, I'm wondering if you have spoken or been in contact with other major registry guys...and if so, how do they feel about this? Are guys like Ireland, Louchios, etc. happy about this? When is Fogel going to sell his collection? I'm pretty sure he won't be sending stuff in for bumps since he's been inactive for a while (at least it seems that way). Sounds like a good time for him to bump and sell.

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Posted By: <b>Solomon Cramer</b><p>I for one can't see any problems or inconsistancies with Jim's position.<br /><br />Whatever his objections or thoughts before this week, PSA made a decision to go to 1/2 grades. Nothing Jim says or does is going to change that.<br /><br />At this point, he needs to cut the best deal, or cut bait with PSA. And with the money invested in it...the latter is very difficult.<br /><br />My personal guess would be a review rate in the $3 range...even if just 15% of 8s go up to an 8.5, it would be paying in the $20 range for each upgrade. How many vintage cards are NOT worth a $20 upgrade fee? And a 15% bump would raise a set by .08 value...a lot cheaper than changing 8% to 9s!<br /><br />And more than anything, for PSA - what chance would they ever have of getting a five figure check from someone like Jim in the future, unless he submitted his 70s sets??<br /><br />PSA is a company - does anyone see how PSA loses revenue, short term or long term, over this decision??

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Posted By: <b>DJ</b><p>The way I see it, it completely benefits Jim and all these high grade mavens.<br /><br />Take for instance Jim's (252) card 1952 Bowman set that averages out at 8.05 and tied for sixth on the list. He sends this entire set to be "regraded" and now he's got a bunch of 8 1/2's and maybe 9's and now he moves up to 5th or even 4th on the list because of the new standards and the financial investment that he has made. He may now all of a sudden have an average of 8.30 instead of 8.05. <br /><br />Is that fair to the 3rd, 4th and 5th on the list? Now they will have to invest in getting their cards regraded and we're exactly where be began, except for the top 5 or 6 having higher grades? Who wins really? <br /><br />PSA of course. <br /><br />Am I wrong here? <br /><br />DJ

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Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>I guess Jim is saying that he only previously objected to this system because of the re-submission fees and not based upon anything philosophical.

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Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>"regraded" and now he's got a bunch of 8 1/2's and maybe 9's<br /><br /><br />Cards will only go from 8 to 8.5 but I see your point. Gradeflation at its finast I suppose?<br /><br /><br />Steve

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Posted By: <b>cmoking</b><p>"PSA is a company - does anyone see how PSA loses revenue, short term or long term, over this decision??"<br /><br />PSA is a company - does anyone not see how PSA could possibly lose revenue in the long term over this decision????? Anyone that thinks it isn't possible hasn't read any message boards today.

The long awaited PSA half grade!
 

Posted By: <b>Mike Mccullough</b><p>Quote:<br />"The answer to everyone's questions is simple: money. If PSA did a true regrading of all cards submitted for the bump up there would be less submissions and less revenue for PSA -- and no one has ever accused PSA of being more concerned about the integrity of card grading than its bottom line. If Jim thought he'd lose a half grade or more he wouldn't bother submitting some or all of his cards -- which means since he is in a win/win situation financially here. If Jim thought there was even a chance that his cards would be deemed altered upon the bump-up review he wouldn't send them in for fear of losing money.<br /><br />It's a perfect marriage, really, between collector and grading company."<br /><br /><br />Jim is in a unique situation and at this point is playing a poker hand. Really,,, what's he going to do,, cross all his cards to SGC or GAI??? Financially IMO this would not be a smart move. (Or is it???)<br /><br />Personally, I dont think his situation is win /win.. At some point and time his collection will have to be sold to realize any real financial gain. Also,,, as PSA loses market share and a core customer base ,,,, who,,, really will be there to buy Jims cards??? Im thinking his hopes of a 6 figure gain may just as easily turn into a 6 figure loss.... If PSA keeps making boneheaded (PR) moves like this who will be left to buy Jims collection???<br /><br /><br />

The long awaited PSA half grade!
 

Posted By: <b>Corey R. Shanus</b><p>I think this thread for the most part is losing focus of the main issue. It is not that PSA chooses to give bulk discounts to its best customers. All businesses do that and I see nothing nothing wrong with it. Nor is it that PSA will only bump a card up but not a card down. While admitedly a bit more troublesome, I still don't think it's that big a deal. The market will for the most part still look at the card through the grade and decide its correct value. Strong 8's with good provenance will still sell for more than weak 8.5's with no provenance. THE issue here is that PSA, through its policy and presumably also through agreement with some of its customers, will be intentionally recirculating graded cards that it knows or should know are altered and that collectors, relying on the PSA certification that the card is unaltered, will be defrauded and will as a result suffer material economic damage. This to me is no different than an auction house, to increase its profitablity, shill bidding lots in its auctions. I believe PSA is being very short-sighted about what it is doing and that there is a real possibly that some regulatory/law enforcement agency will start asking some very hard questions and possibly take some very strong action.

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Posted By: <b>Frank Evanov</b><p>Corey's point is well taken. PSA is turning a blind eye to alterations in this scenario, while at the same time telling us they're doing their utmost to stop card doctoring. That's shameful. <br><br>Frank

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Posted By: <b>Eric B</b><p>Corey, point well taken. But can we assume that during re-examination if a card is deemed altered then it will not get the 1/2 point bump in grade? If so, can we also then assume that any card with a #.5 grade is most likely unaltered per improved grading techniques? <br /><br />I have no point except that while the #.5 grade cards will increase in value, perhaps the non #.5 grade cards will lose more value due to healthy skepticism.

The long awaited PSA half grade!
 

Posted By: <b>Glen Turner</b><p>I have always hated the fact that PSA did not distinguish between a poor and a fair card.<br />To me there is more difference between poor and fair and good cards than 8's 9's and 10's<br />You line up the same card say a 1963 Ted Savage. The average collector could not tell an 8 from a 9 from a 10 but if properly graded there is a world of differences between poor and fair and good cards.<br />Oh, well good luck to all the high rollers out there.<br />I will still be trying to pick up a nice fair or good card.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Jerry Hrechka</b><p> IMHO PSA's most valuable asset is that collector's have trust & confidence that PSA slabbed cards are authentic, unaltered & accurately graded. If that trust starts to lessen then the PREMIUM value of a graded card vs. a raw card will diminish. PRO cards are a joke because no one knowledgeable believes that the 3 elements mentioned above are present. Trust in GAI cards has gone down (All the Open on Monday Jokes).<br /> How can I trust PSA not to pull another money grubbing scheme like this one? They cann't even differentiate between a 1 & a 6 (See the Horrors of War card I posted earlier).<br /> If PSA continues down their current path then the trust will become eroded & eventually will vanish, again IMHO.<br /> As for me, the trust is gone, I'm done with PSA.

The long awaited PSA half grade!
 

Posted By: <b>Rhett</b><p>I wonder who would be the first in line denouncing PSA if sweetheart deals hadn't been reached. Kinda takes the wind out of sails of those trying to "clean the hobby" up. This is all so transparent it is rediculous. People that want to be leaders in any part of life have to do so by their example not through words only. How can people that don't expect to be taken seriously?<br />-Rhett

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Posted By: <b>Fred C</b><p>Perhaps someone can enlighten me here. Did I read somewhere in this thread that PSA WILL NOT DOWNGRADE any card they find to be overgraded? What happens if upon a second review a grader sees evidence of alteration which was not found in the first grade attempt? Does that mean that PSA turns a blind eye and says "oh well, no harm no foul"? <b>You would have to figure that if there were cards that could be upgraded then there are certainly cards that can be downgraded.</b> <br /><br />This sounds like a CAN'T lose proposition because you can send as many cards in for a half grade bump without the worry of having anything downgraded. That's BULL$HIT (please notice the $ sign in place of S in the word **** - I did that so nobody would be offended). <br /><br />Yes, PSA is in the business of providing hobby services and providing their share holders with a dividend but this type of service seems to be a clear ploy to make more money than anything else. <br /><br /><br /><br />

The long awaited PSA half grade!
 

Posted By: <b>Jantz</b><p>Keeping in mind that we are all humans (whether it be collectors or PSA graders). One question I have though is...what special training did PSA graders get to differentiate from a card graded a PSA 4 to a card now being graded a PSA 4.5? (or whatever their new grading scale is)<br /><br />I have never submitted a single card to PSA(or SGC for that matter)and have NO ill feelings towards PSA what-so-ever, but it seems to me that if I had submitted alot of cards to PSA in the past, I would be very upset at this time. I would have paid them a submission fee to accurately authenticate and grade a card for me, which is solely based upon THEIR opinion and now they say that if I wish to resubmit and pay their submission fee a second time THEIR opinion might get a little more accurate.<br /><br />Imagine for a moment if all other services we deal with on a daily basis handled their customers like this. For example, having your brakes fixed on your automobile. Hmmm <br /><br />I am not trying to ruffle any feathers by posting this. This is just my perspective/opinion on this thread topic typed out for all to read.<br /><br />Collect what you like,<br />Jantz<br /><br />

The long awaited PSA half grade!
 

Posted By: <b>DD</b><p>Someone could make a killing by buying SGC 92 cards of significant value, and then crossing them over to PSA to get an 8.5. PSA still on average generates more $$ than SGC, outside of the vintage market anyway.<br /><br />In addition, it's obvious that no card could ever be downgraded or deemed trimmed, etc., since PSA graders do not make mistakes, are a model of consistency, and have never encapsualted an altered card.

The long awaited PSA half grade!
 

Posted By: <b>Mark Evans</b><p>Great thread -- forum at its best.<br /><br />First, it seems to me that moving to a half-grade system is sensible in that it should allow for more accurate grading to the benefit of collectors.<br /><br />Second, I see no problem with PSA offering a cost break to major re-submitters.<br /><br />However, I believe all re-submissions should be considered fresh and graded accordingly under the new system. This would require altered cards to be so identified and overgraded (as well as undergraded) cards to be assigned proper grades. PSA's apparent decision to ignore alterations and eschew downgrades reflects the cynicism of the company toward collectors by sacrificing the integrity of the system for revenues. Ironically, while the new system will undoubtedly generate increased revenues in the short-term, based upon the views of the majority of posters in this thread, I suspect this will be a short-lived victory for PSA that will be more than offset by the tarnish to its reputation. Mark

The long awaited PSA half grade!
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Thursday July 10, 2003 3:14 PM <br /><br /><br />There has been a great deal of discussion about PSA going to a half point grading system and, once and for all, I want to clear this up.<br /><br />PSA IS NOT GOING TO A half POINT SYSTEM.<br /><br />The fact that I asked for the opinions of collectors and dealers just shows that WE DO LISTEN to your concerns and we do not make decisions here without considering the implications. From the start, I have been against .5 grades but I wanted to hear from you too. <br /><br />Some of you have been critical of the use of the word "Now" in my original statement. I believe that it is wrong to mislead people and guarantee things that I cannot guarantee. The point is that, 3 years from now, your own opinion may change and, if it does, PSA would want to satisfy the collecting community - that is what we are here for. So, in the end, it would be ridiculous for me or anyone to say "Never" because we don't know what the future will bring.<br /><br />In addition, PSA knows that collectors drive and support our business more than anyone so why would we want to offend the very same people who support us most? We would have to be crazy to do it.<br /><br />THAT'S WHY WE ARE NOT DOING IT.<br /><br />Thanks for listening. There are those who will speculate and make ridiculous comments on the boards like "PSA is insulting us by even asking about it" and "It doesn't matter what Joe thinks because the powers that be want more money." I can't stop those people from refusing to listen and speculating but to most of you who have been very responsive and courteous - thank you - your voice matters and your point has been made.<br /><br />End of story.<br /><br />Take care,<br /><br />Joe Orlando<br />PSA President &gt;&gt;<br /><br /><br />So that's it! It was the COLLECTORS that asked for the half grade bump, not CLCT's shareholders!

The long awaited PSA half grade!
 

Posted By: <b>Matt</b><p>Joe has missed the point entirely which is just shocking to me as we have clarified it here so many times. Most of us would have no issue with PSA going to a half point system. The issue is with the guaranteed greater then or equals to policy. <br /><br />Joe - go to the half point system, just evaluate each card submitted as being fresh, allowing for a 5 to come back as a 4.5, a 5.0, a 5.5 or an A.

The long awaited PSA half grade!
 

Posted By: <b>scott brockelman</b><p>I can't believe you would have to ship the cards. PSA should be coming to you. It would have been much easier and cost effective. Did they not offer such? Or did you fail to ask? <br /><br />Scott

The long awaited PSA half grade!
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Scott,<br /><br />I don't know if that last question is meant for me but assuming it is...A Brinks truck with a number of armed guards would come to my house and load up my cards and drive them to Cali. That is PSA's idea.<br /><br />My idea is they send two vintage graders to my house or a hotel room nearby to regrade...or come out around Ft. Washington and do it in stages.<br />Hopefully my idea wins out.<br /><br />Matt,<br /><br />Assuming you are correct, it is because there are few owners of a substantial number of PSA cards on the Net 54 boards. Noone would submit under your proposal.<br /><br />King,<br /><br />Do not know when or if Marshal will sell. I have spoken to other major collectors but would prefer not to say who. I think that there are a very small number(less than 5) being offered the type of deal I am offered.<br /><br />

The long awaited PSA half grade!
 

Posted By: <b>JK</b><p>Jim,<br /><br />I think you are incorrect about Matt's idea - I think people who truly believe that their cards merited an upgrade would submit. Indeed, people are constantly cracking cards out of slabs and resubmitting with no guarantee that they wont get a lower grade or an Auth. the next go around. <br /><br />The problem is that not enough would submit to have the result intended by PSA - ie boost their profits.

The long awaited PSA half grade!
 

Posted By: <b>scott brockelman</b><p>I was addressing your situation. <br /><br />If it were me, I would absolutely demand they come to you. Much less expense to import a couple of graders/slabbers and a machine for a few days than ship 22,000 slabs across the country AND back, and much less liability and risk for everyone. I agree timing with a Ft. Washington show or such when they are already on the East coast makes the most sense. <br /><br />One things for sure the competition would be on your doorstep in a heartbeat if you wanted to grade 22,000 cards with them, and I bet you could have gotten as sweet a deal.<br /><br />Scott

The long awaited PSA half grade!
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Scott,<br /><br />I have known Dave Forman 16 years. He has been to my house and my office. We speak regularly. He is no doubt aware of my situation. If he has a proposition for me he knows how to get a hold of me.<br /><br />Yeah, I am a bit uncomfortable with the whole Brinks/armed guards scenario.<br /><br />We'll see.

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Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>I have a large number of PSA graded cards but I will not submit one single card to them for re-grading to try and get a .5 bump. Not one.

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Posted By: <b>S Gross</b><p>Ode to a PSA 8.5<br /><br /><br />PSA 8 !!!<br />PSA 8 !!!<br />Ain't it just grand;<br />Ain't it just great.<br /><br />PSA 8 !!!<br />PSA 8 !!!<br />Now your'a saying<br />It doesn't rate ???<br /><br />PSA 8 !!!<br />PSA 8 !!!<br />Quick ! grab you wallet<br />before it's too late.<br /><br />PSA 8 !!!<br />PSA 8 !!!<br />Go ask your mommy,<br />It's still a PSA 8 ............... <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Brian</b><p>How much gas does it take to drive a truck from the east coast to cali?<br /><br />

The long awaited PSA half grade!
 

Posted By: <b>Mike</b><p>Richard says,<br /><br /><br />Sound good to everyone??<br />No wonder PSA gets a D grade (only one grade higher than the lowest possible grade) from the Better Business Bureau. <br />--<br />I THINK YOU ARE FORGETTING THAT MAYBE THE BBB WILL CHANGE THEIR STANDARDS AND GIVE PSA AN F+ <br /><br />Several thoughts<br /><br /><br />1. Will they be giving the card a new # if it does crossover? <br /><br />2. When buying an 8 at a show can you make sure it was graded after Feb 1, 2008 and therefore has no chance for a bump? <br /><br />3. This new process is crappy for registry people but if you are an investor and sitting on stacks of psa 8's, it can't hurt to send in and get the bump. <br /><br />4. I guess this will eliminate ebay sellers description of "this is a high end 8"<br /><br />Mike

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Posted By: <b>Bruce Babcock</b><p><img src="http://homepage.mac.com/thurber51/.Pictures/Grading%20Mishaps/1895Shindle.jpg"><br /><br />Could this card get a 5.5?

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Posted By: <b>Fred C</b><p>Bruce,<br /><br />Holy crap, are you serious? Do you own that card? I certainly wouldn't turn it in for a regrade. It'd have to come back in an AUT holder. That is too funny. Another PSA blunder. Wow, that is one of the worst botch jobs I've seen.

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Posted By: <b>Bruce Babcock</b><p>The Mayo is not my card, Fred. Just a scan I saved from an auction a few years ago. My understanding is that PSA bought the card back from the owner. Not their finest hour.

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Posted By: <b>Frank Evanov</b><p><I> When buying an 8 at a show can you make sure it was graded after Feb 1, 2008 and therefore has no chance for a bump? </I><br /><br />Mike, many of us have sent individual cards to PSA for grading several times with different results each time. I would guess that just because a card didn't bump one time doesn't mean it wouldn't improve on a second or third submission.<br><br>Frank

The long awaited PSA half grade!
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Ok, so now that we've squared away the little problem of the PSA half grade system, can we get back to saving the hobby?

The long awaited PSA half grade!
 

Posted By: <b>Shawn Chambers</b><p>Good point, Frank, but now cards coming in for resubmit slabbed...how hard would it be for PSA to log the cert #'s for cards not getting a .5 bump on re-review...then when some other slab head tries to submit it again (unaware it has failed once) PSA can simply look up the cert and realize they have already viewed it and decided against the .5 bump. They won't even need graders for many transactions - just a clerk with access to their database. Most people won't pop out and submit, because they can't risk the dreaded "A"!!!<br /><br />Oh well. Unless they are willing to designate with a new flip or holder that it has been reviewed and failed the .5 bump, they look bad in my eyes.

The long awaited PSA half grade!
 

Posted By: <b>MARTY</b><p>Though I would add in my two cents..<br /><br />I have no problem with a half grade system..just with the implementation.<br /><br />PSA is a GRADING COMPANY..meaning that to be successful their grades must have integrity.<br /><br />Let's be LOGICAL..<br /><br />In any sampling involving hundreds of thousands of items there are going to be mistakes..guaranteed.<br /><br />PSA states that re-submitted cards will only remain the same grade or be bumped up but will NOT be downgraded...Where is the integrity in that??...Please tell me...<br /><br />I differentiate this from a smart financial move (if you think it is).<br /><br />Integrity is a separate issue.<br /><br />Isn't it clearly logical to KNOW that SOME cards have been overgraded ??<br /><br />PSA is stating very clearly that they do not care about the integrity of their product. Just give me some money and maybe you will hit the jackpot and don't worry, if we see an overgraded card it's just between you and me.<br /><br />Now I really believe in the American way and a company can do what it wants to...so go for the money and good luck.

The long awaited PSA half grade!
 

Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>Maybe the Brinks guys can stop off in Michigan and turn in some cans and bottles for the increased deposit refund.

The long awaited PSA half grade!
 

Posted By: <b>Anthony S.</b><p>I think you need to use a mail truck for that, Cobby.

The long awaited PSA half grade!
 

Posted By: <b>dennis</b><p>now would be the time to redesign the slab and give it the black insert like sgc and gai.....but i guess that this may be the next innovation after the 1/2 grades.

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Posted By: <b>Joe D.</b><p>I really don't like the card swimming in the slab.<br /><br />PSA should fix that!

The long awaited PSA half grade!
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Dennis is right. Next time CLCT's stock needs a boost PSA will offer black inserts like SGC. <br /><br />The interesting thing about Orlando's offer to Jim (and Jim surely knows this) is that he had to have Jim's cards in 8.5 holders. If Jim, Don Spence, Luchios, etc. told Joe to FU than many, many of the Registry sets stay the same and there would be less incentive for the remainder of Registry guys to have to pack up thousands of cards to PSA for resubmission. Which of course would be a disaster for Orlando who is obvioulsy trolling for additional revenue, trying to squeeze out the last cent he can from his Registry-fueled revenue stream. By giving Jim a great deal he gets the ball rolling and forced the other Registry guys to do the same (or Jim may have been following another of the big Registry guys' lead). I suspect if Jim and a few of the other guys got together and told Orlando FU, PSA would have agreed to do their resubmissions for free. Orlando needs the 100,000 or so graded 8s in all of those guys' collections to be resubmitted and I suspect he'd have done anything he had to in order for this to occur.

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Posted By: <b>Corey R. Shanus</b><p>While I haven't discussed the PSA half-grade bump up with Dave Forman or anybody else at SGC, from everything I know about him and his company, I would be shocked if they would want any part of this caper. Sure, they would love the business of putting in SGC slabs tens of thousands of PSA-slabbed cards. But not at the price of having to turn a blind eye to alterations. Unlke their competition, they're too smart to throw their reputation under a bus by putting the SGC seal of approval on cards they know or have the capability to know are altered. Going further, inasmuch as a number of PSA 8s are clearly overgraded, even if they are not altered, I can't see SGC certifying a card as an 8 if they don't think it meets that standard. So that too would kill it for a lot of potential crossover customers. Not only would SGC not agree to overlook alerations, they would also not be willing to slab a card an 8 unless they truly felt it was an 8.

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Posted By: <b>Joe D.</b><p>I can send any PSA 8 card to SGC and say DO NOT CRACK unless you give me a grade of an 8 or better.<br /><br />If they find that card is altered... they will send it back to me still in the PSA 8 slab.<br /><br /><br />How is that different than PSA offering the same 'DO NOT CRACK' on possible 1/2 point bumps?<br /><br /><br />IMO - there is no difference.<br /><br />All PSA did was add 1/2 grade points to their scale - and will let you know if your card deserves a 1/2 point bump or not. People here want them to do something completely different. You should all work in congress. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Corey R. Shanus</b><p>In my opinion there is an enormous difference. In the case you describe, SGC is not putting its seal of approval (via encapsulating the card in its slab) on the card. Returning it to you as you gave it to them (in the PSA slab) DOES NOT RETURN THE CARD TO CIRCULATION WITH ANY SGC CERTIFICATION ON THE SLAB THAT COLLECTORS COULD RELY ON TO THEIR DETRIMENT. Your example would be analogous if (1) SGC solicited submissions of PSA-graded cards with the promise they would at minimum, regardless if the card was overgraded or altered, holder the card in an SGC slab with the same grade as PSA gave it, or (2) you re-submitted an SGC-slabbed card to them and they returned it to you in its original slab even though upon re-examination they determined it to be altered or overgraded.

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Posted By: <b>Joe D.</b><p>there is a point that cannot be missed....<br /><br />and it is the reason both situations (SGC and PSA) are very much the same.<br /><br />Whether I send a graded card to PSA or SGC or another grading company:<br />The card and the slab are mine. My property. Not SGCs. Not PSAs.<br /><br />If I direct them not to touch my property unless they plan on giving me a grade bump - that is completely up to me (not the grading company). <br /><br />Of course they may charge a fee for the service even if they do not change a grade. That is their option.<br /><br /><br />edit: to your point (2) - I believe in that case SGC cannot break out my card. They would look to buy it. Either grading company would look to buy the card or deny it is misgraded. One or the other.<br /><br />edit: to your point (1) - I do not see that example as even remotely being close to the point I am making (probably my fault as not being clear). But that example is not the same as what I am saying.<br /><br /><br />edit once again: for the record - SGC is my preferred choice for grading. Its not even close.

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Posted By: <b>Fred C</b><p>Corporations are always trying to improve the bottom line. I wonder if this move is being thought out because the bottom line is dropping because of far fewer submissions or because they just want to increase revenue? I'm just guessing that as the years go by there are going to be less and less submissions, especially when people have figured that the ownership of a psa10 rookie card that was mass produced is pure hype and stupidity.

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Posted By: <b>Corey R. Shanus</b><p>I have to respectfully disagree. The card and the plastic in the slab are yours; the grading company's name and associated good will are the grading company's. A grading company could have every legal right, depending what their terms were when they first holdered your card, upon re-submission and detection of an initial grading error and payment to you of appropriate damages, to either re-holder the card in an appropriate slab or take the card out of circulation altogether. IMO any grading company would be crazy not to have given itself such rights. The goodwill associated with its name is by far its most important asset, and such rights are crucial to protecting that goodwill.

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Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p>What happens to the concept that graders do not know who's submission they are looking at? Brinks truck with thousands of slabs pulls up...........or even worse they do what some have mentioned and go to the slabs. I guess they could blind fold them on the way to the site.<br /><br /><br />Steve<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Steve, what a laugher to think that PSA suddenly now cares about integrity. If you think that Jim's cards are not getting special treatment I've got a bridge to sell you. For the same reason that Orlando gave Jim a special rate my guess is he will do all that he can to keep Jim happy -- to prevent flight to SGC. Jim, when you read this, let me know if there is any room on the Brinks truck for my PSA graded cards!

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Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>"corey January 19 2008, 10:29 AM <br /><br /><br />there is a point that cannot be missed....<br /><br />and it is the reason both situations (SGC and PSA) are very much the same.<br /><br />Whether I send a graded card to PSA or SGC or another grading company:<br />The card and the slab are mine. My property. Not SGCs. Not PSAs.<br /><br />If I direct them not to touch my property unless they plan on giving me a grade bump - that is completely up to me (not the grading company). <br /><br />Of course they may charge a fee for the service even if they do not change a grade. That is their option.<br /><br /><br />edit: to your point (2) - I believe in that case SGC cannot break out my card. They would look to buy it. Either grading company would look to buy the card or deny it is misgraded. One or the other.<br /><br />edit: to your point (1) - I do not see that example as even remotely being close to the point I am making (probably my fault as not being clear). But that example is not the same as what I am saying.<br /><br /><br />edit once again: for the record - SGC is my preferred choice for grading. Its not even close."<br /><br /><br />The difference in your example is enormous. PSA official policy, in writing, is to turn a blind eye. SGC's written policy and SGC resubmits is as follows:<br /><br />"Cards on regrade or reholder service: SGC has the right to reevaluate the card and assign a newly established grade if SGC believes the card was originally misgraded. If the grade change results in a loss of value of the card, SGC will compensate the customer based upon market value as solely determined by SGC."<br /><br /> <br /><br /> <br />

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Posted By: <b>Andy</b><p>ttt

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Joe and Corey- very interesting discussion about what rights of ownership one has upon resubmission. The owner may have the right to say don't touch my card unless you bump it a grade, and the grading company might see an obvious error that needs to be corrected . Who wins that argument, legally or otherwise?

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Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>Corey said,<br />"they're too smart to throw their reputation under a bus by putting the SGC seal of approval on cards they know or have the capability to know are altered. Going further, inasmuch as a number of PSA 8s are clearly overgraded, even if they are not altered, I can't see SGC certifying a card as an 8 if they don't think it meets that standard. So that too would kill it for a lot of potential crossover customers. Not only would SGC not agree to overlook alerations, they would also not be willing to slab a card an 8 unless they truly felt it was an 8."<br /><br />Corey,<br />With all due respect, you could switch PSA and SGC's names in your statement and it would still be true. PSA does not automatically cross SGC cards either, and for the same reasons. But I agree with Joe on this. The grading companies do not own my cards and it is not their's to confiscate if they do not like their previous evaluation. If they think they have made an error, they can contact me and attempt to negotiate an appropriate settlement. But I do not see why I should be under any obligation. <br />JimB<br /><br />Edited to add: I say this not as any sort of PSA supporter. I generally think SGC does a better job these days. But I think PSA often does not get fair treatment on this board.

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Posted By: <b>Steve</b><p> May be wrong in how I've read it, but I believe the process is akin to simple crossover. You jot down the minimum grade you'll accept. They refuse, you get the thing back, same as if it were an SGC, BVG or GAI.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>cmoking</b><p>Corey wrote: "In my opinion there is an enormous difference. In the case you describe, SGC is not putting its seal of approval (via encapsulating the card in its slab) on the card. Returning it to you as you gave it to them (in the PSA slab) DOES NOT RETURN THE CARD TO CIRCULATION WITH ANY SGC CERTIFICATION ON THE SLAB THAT COLLECTORS COULD RELY ON TO THEIR DETRIMENT."<br /><br />I completely agree with this! If SGC returns it to you in the PSA holder, they are saying it didn't pass their standards. If PSA returns it to you in the PSA holder, they are saying the old PSA opinion is still valid. Two very very very different things.

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Posted By: <b>Joe D.</b><p>barry:<br />"The owner may have the right to say don't touch my card unless you bump it a grade, and the grading company might see an obvious error that needs to be corrected . Who wins that argument, legally or otherwise?"<br /><br />In that case - the owner would have to give consent to the change.<br /><br />Something most important to consider.<br />Neither grading company is selling 'absolute truth'. They are selling subjective opinions. They cannot say in absolute terms that a prior grading was incorrect and a new opinion is correct or more accurate. Cannot - and most likely would not. All grading companies covet and enjoy the 'grading is subjective' pretense. As soon as they start claiming absolute truths - they open themselves up to a whole bunch of other problems.<br /><br />That is why they offer the 'do not crack' on cross grades.<br /><br />And if I write a minimum grade on a reholder they cannot touch my card in that case as well.<br /><br /><br />I cannot assume, you cannot assume, they cannot assume the most current subjective opinion is any more valid than the prior subjective opinion.<br /><br /><br /><br />king and corey:<br />we just don't see eye to eye on that one.<br />In both cases - the card is sent to a grading company for evaluation. But in one of those cases, you accept that a grading company can back away from grading. Why put the obligation of a mandatory grade in one case and not the other? Why not - if you send a card to a grading company - they grade it... plain and simple? The answer is what I have been saying all along. Because the card and the slab are your property. Also see the above point that grading is subjective. They cannot claim to be absolutely correct, ever.<br /><br /><br />FYS:<br />As per the quote you pulled from the SGC grading policy.... If SGC ever downgraded a resubmit and handed me what they thought was fair in compensation (without talking to me about it prior to taking action) - it would be my very last submission with the company. Also - they have a spot on their orders that say Minimum Grade. If I fill that in - they have no right to ignore it - they can refuse service - but they cannot ignore that term that I put on the order.<br /><br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>MikeU</b><p>"FYS:<br />As per the quote you pulled from the SGC grading policy.... If SGC ever downgraded a resubmit and handed me what they thought was fair in compensation (without talking to me about it prior to taking action) - it would be my very last submission with the company. Also - they have a spot on their orders that say Minimum Grade. If I fill that in - they have no right to ignore it - they can refuse service - but they cannot ignore that term that I put on the order."<br /><br />My understanding is that they call the submitter and negotiate an agreeable compensation amount for the downgrade i.e. pulling realized prices from VCP. They do not want erros in the marketplace, but do not pull a PSA and crack the card out and send it back without telling you. Then tell you the holder was tampered with after you call. <br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>JK</b><p>Joe,<br /><br />You stated:<br /><br />"I can send any PSA 8 card to SGC and say DO NOT CRACK unless you give me a grade of an 8 or better. If they find that card is altered... they will send it back to me still in the PSA 8 slab. How is that different than PSA offering the same 'DO NOT CRACK' on possible 1/2 point bumps? IMO - there is no difference."<br /><br /><br />There is a big difference. A more reasonable comparison would be if you send SGC an SGC graded card for a regrade because you dont agree with the originally assigned grade. I believe that SGC makes no promises that the card wont come back in a lower grade or slabbed as authentic if they determine that they missed something the first time. However, I do believe that pursuant to their guarantee they would make you whole if you bought the card based on the original assigned grade. <br />

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Posted By: <b>Joe D.</b><p>MikeU:<br />I agree. SGC would call the person first in that case.<br />They are a stand up organization with great people and great policies.<br />I also agree that they would come up with a fair solution - that if it was my card - I am sure I would agree with their solution (if I believed that their determination was accurate).<br /><br />BUT - if a card owner did not agree with the lower grade (and put down a minimum grade)... SGC cannot crack out that card and give it a lower grade. Its just that simple.<br /><br />I believe this is consistent with what I have been saying all along. My initial comments came as a reaction to others claiming that resubmissions should 'have to' be subject to the possibility of lower grades. They shouldn't and they aren't.<br /><br /><br />JK:<br />Okay... Lets take PSA out of the equation. If I resubmit an SGC card to SGC for further consideration... and put down a minimum acceptable grade (as the current grade). In my eyes they have two options: a) Refuse service b) Give me the card back in the same grade or higher.<br /><br /><br /><br />It is worth repeating... <br />All grading companies are in the 'subjective opinion' game. They can never claim that any opinion is 'absolute truth'. <br /><br /><br />edited spelling. probably should edit more.

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Posted By: <b>JK</b><p>Sorry, missed that FYS posted the SGC policy above. Joe, you further stated:<br /><br />"As per the quote you pulled from the SGC grading policy.... If SGC ever downgraded a resubmit and handed me what they thought was fair in compensation (without talking to me about it prior to taking action) - it would be my very last submission with the company. Also - they have a spot on their orders that say Minimum Grade. If I fill that in - they have no right to ignore it - they can refuse service - but they cannot ignore that term that I put on the order."<br /><br />A couple of points:<br /><br />1. The minimum grade spot on their orders is for cross overs only - nothing else. Again, sending a card in another companies slab is not equivilent to this situation. If I sent a card to psa that was graded by sgc and said cross it and didnt provide a minimum grade, they would cross it to whatever grade they felt was appropriate - even a lower one.<br /><br />2. When you send an sgc graded card to sgc for regrade - you have, in doing so, agreed to sgc's terms of service. One of which is that your card may get a lower grade and, in return, you will be compensated for any loss of value.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>There has and always will be a certain anal-retentiveness to collecting cards in mint condition - I will for one never be able to understand the mentality of competing for the best condition set of baseball cards, however I understand this is a large section of collectors who do fall into that category. They are being fleeced by PSA with this decision to bump up grades. It's forcing those with the very high grade sets to resubmit cards they've already paid to have graded just so they can stay competitive. I know I haven't really said anything new here, but as an outsider who does not compete on the registry it is clear this was a ploy to fleece money from the registry collectors....you are at their mercy.

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Posted By: <b>fed.up</b><p>Joe D., simply put, you're wrong. PSA can decertify any card at any time for any reason. The only thing that is your property is the card itself.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Dan, no one with high grade Registry sets is happy about it, trust me. That being said, if you don't have a choice, you don't have a choice because as you correctly pointed out doing nothing will just serve to decrease the value of one's collection. And while the investment required to resubmit may be painful, time consuming and annoying, the payoff is that the value of vintage high grade, bumped cards will offset the costs of resubmission -- and then some. <br /><br />Orlando is what he is I suppose: a huckster first and foremost but to Registry people he's 'our huckster', unfortunately. <br />

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Posted By: <b>JK</b><p>Despite "fed up" posting anonymously and violating forum rules, he makes a good point with respect to the certification.

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Posted By: <b>dennis</b><p>dan b. i agree with you 100%,but those registry guys don't seem to care. rather i think it makes the game more fun for them.

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Posted By: <b>fed.up</b><p>JK, I did not violate forum rules. There is nothing controversial in my post.

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Posted By: <b>Joe D.</b><p>Actually - it seems PSA has gone ahead and quelled any of those concerns. They are the ones who said they will bump or return. So they will not decertify.<br /><br />JK<br />If I write on an order a minimum grade... I think they would have to refuse service or abide by the minimum grade. If you are suggesting that the order itself has a spot for crossovers only - I could cross out 'crossover only' or just put my minimum somewhere else.<br /><br /><br />I have to point out once again... <b>subjectivity</b>. None of the graders want to claim otherwise. This is why they 'do not crack'. They would cause themselves worlds more trouble if they claim to be absolutely accurate. They never do. So, undoing a slab - against the wishes of the owner - either by a competing company or their own has many many more issues and implications than it would appear on the surface.<br /><br /><br /><br />fed.up: ultimately, these companies can do whatever the heck they want. You mention decertifying. I don't think that is applicable in this context. But of course they can do it. They can also grade every new card that comes in a 9. never higher and never lower. Its up to them. Its also up to us (as consumers) to take their policies in as a whole and decide whether or not they are a worthy place to send our business to.