Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>Sean C</b><p>I'd be just as concerned about the altered cards I currently had in my collection as the ones I'm potentially buying, especially since I'd be paying extra insurance premiums on potentially worthless (or less valuable) cards. I guess Jim doesn't want to know how badly he may have been taken advantage of in the past, and how much "dead wood" he may have in his card vault. As the old saying goes, ignorance is bliss. <br /><br /><br />JimCrandell <br />(Login Davalillo) Re: Kevin Saucier - Adding Value November 19 2007, 6:29 AM <br /><br /><br />Whoops Jim--I found your "penetrating" corrections--wow--no wpnder I avoided them.<br /><br />1)I don't think everydody elses cards are altered<br /><br />2)I want to have another check on expensive cards I buy because I believe some cards have slipped through.<br /><br />3)Just because to my knowledge I don't have any altered cards does not mean I don't--I just don't know which of the 28,000 graded they may be?<br /><br />Those were penetrating Jim--any other penetrating ones? <br />

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Sean,<br /><br />You are a fool--but as they say and its certainly true with you ignorance is bliss.

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>Ryan Christoff</b><p>Jim, <br /><br />You're the best!<br /><br />Love, <br /><br />-Ryan<br /><br />

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>pas</b><p>Folks seem more interested in bashing Jim than discussing the merits of how much value Kevin (or anyone else) can add by reviewing a card already in a slab.

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>Dave F</b><p>While I agree this shouldn't turn into another bashing Jim thread, he isn't helping himself by throwing fuel on the fire with the 5 or 6 that are wanting exactly that. Why not just let sleeping dogs lie Jim?

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>GoSoxBoSox</b><p>I have to agree with Dave on that Peter. I'm only here for one reason. It isn't because I wanted to chime in on the merits of Kevin's service. It wasn't to bash Kevin either as I like the guy. It's because Jim continues to take any opportunity he can to twist the truth about LTS. Jim needs to get back on topic and lay off us, or we will certainly debate him on his allegations/poor jokes/rumors/whatever.<br /><br />As always, if he leaves it alone, the only place I can be found on N54 is on the Buy/Sell/Trade forum.

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>pas</b><p>Hey Tom was not counting you among the Jim bashers, Jim brought up LTS so it was fair game. I just wish there could be less discussion of Jim's personal collection (we GET the charge of hypocrisy, let's move on) and more about the concept of reviewing cards inside a slab which to me is the crux of the discussion about whether Kevin adds value.

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>Mark H.</b><p>Kevin, pass me some of that popcorn.

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>martindl</b><p><br />Peter, you said "Folks seem more interested in bashing Jim than discussing the merits of how much value Kevin (or anyone else) can add by reviewing a card already in a slab."<br /><br />Plenty of people have discussed the merits and the concerns regarding Kevin or anyone else reviewing a card already in a slab. There is really nothing else to be said, other than already repeating a point already made. <br />I see no problem with anyone availing themselves of someone else's expertise if they want that assurance for themselves. It would be a personal service akin to many other kinds of appraisers e.g. real estate, antiques, cars, etc. The main difference that I can see is that unlike other appraisers, this one would be unlicensed and thus their opinion would carry no real weight. <br /><br />Re. bashing Jim, after reading his repeated putdowns of others it does become quite tempting to want to bring him down to the level of the rest of us. Jim C. is a gadfly and seemingly quite happy to be so.

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>pas</b><p>Martin there are some regulars whose expertise I highly respect who have not commented on the utility of such a service, but in any event your point is well taken that this thread is certainly not the first discussion of Kevin and many have already weighed in. Then again, if redundancy were the standard we might have a lotless to talk about. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>Corey R. Shanus</b><p>How much added value would a thumbs up from Kevin add to a card I am considering purchasing? Until I can get some sense of how effective such an examination would be with the card still in the slab, I don't think I can answer that. There are different kinds of alterations (trimming, rebuilding corners, adding color, etc.) and I suppose some are more easily detectable with the card in the slab than others. To me the effectiveness of Kevin's examination would be more to prove the negative than the positive -- if he gives it a thumbs down, then assuming I have confidence in his expertise (and I don't know Kevin but from what I read he seems a pretty knowledgable person), I would regard (much of) the value taken away from the card. <br /><br />Also, separate from what Kevin can and cannot do with the card still in the slab, I would also want to know when the card was graded and its provenance. If, for example, it had been recently done by SGC, then inasmuch as I am comfortable with their expertise, to me there is not much potential additional value out there that Kevin could add even under the best of circumstances (i.e., examining the card outside the slab). Same too goes with provenance. If the card went straight from an old time collector straight into a slab (e.g., Lionel Carter's cards), then the only issue to me is the grade, not the whether the card has been altered.

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Corey, I have seen some T206's from Lionel Carter's collection that were trimmed and graded "A" by SGC. Trimming has been going on for a looooooonnnnnggg time.

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>Corey R. Shanus</b><p>Fair point. I think I need to be more specific in what I said. The types of cards from Carter's collection that I have no worries are altered are those he personally pulled from the packs, not ones he acquired from others. So yes, the T206s would not fall in this category and I too had heard some had been altered. But, say, his Topps and Bowmans that SGC slabbed, those I'm not worried about.

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Martin,<br /><br />Name one instance where I have initiated something putting down others. I respond to others who attack me but why would I ever say anything to Sean if he didn't attack me first.<br /><br />Tom,<br /><br />How am I twisting the truth? Yes you don't have to graduate from Harvard or Yale to get into LTS--I admit it --I twisted it. Is LTS such an organization that you can't poke fun at it in jest? I think its funny Kevin cannot get back in--you don't-- fine. I think he thinks its funny too.<br /><br />You can rip me again if you want to Tom but just trying to create some fun.<br /><br />Speedy recovery.

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>John,<br /><br />Here are your answers:<br /><br />1)Has Kevin looked at my cards--no. Will he--no. Thus rest of questions irrelevent<br />2)I never said I was going to cross my 25,000 PSA cards(not 50,000). I indicated I would seriously consider it if PSA went to half grades which they considered but never did.<br />3)This turned out to be a good decision--GAI cards are worth a lot less that PSA in the same grade. I have no reason today to consider switching--I like my PSA cards.<br />4)Why should I? There are hundreds of major collectors out there--I know of one that has had his cards checked. I am happy--all look great although there are probably some that are not.

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Jim- what was the verdict regarding your friend who had his cards checked? Were many problems found?

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Barry,<br /><br />He posts here from time to time and I do not feel comfortable disclosing what Kevin found. I will have to pass on that and let Kevin or him disclose that if they wish to.

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Well if we don't know who it is, what difference would it make if you just gave us a brief synopsis? I don't need names.

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>I would be breaching a confidence and I really don't know all the facts--Kevin can comment if he thinks its appropriate.

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>GoSoxBoSox</b><p>Jim,<br /><br />I have no issues with the little jokes like Harvard or the networth thing. <br /><br />I have a problem with your comments saying we are secret society/elitist. LTS is no secret. And if we are elitist we have low standards (starting with myself). I have seen comments like this a few times on N54 from you. It's just not true. We let a lot of people on as long as they are relatively polite to others, and somebody can vouch for them as “a stand-up person” in the hobby). It’s not much different from an auction house asking for references before they let you bid.<br /><br />I have a problem with you saying we had a vote on Kevin, and the fact you would question JimB to that effect in public. Your accusation is false once again. No vote was taken. And if it were JimB isn't the guy to go after about that is he? <br /><br />The fact of the matter is you want to put a negative spin on LTS in public. People here don’t know us and they might actually believe your dribble. So, frankly, I just want to make sure people know the truth, and not just the world according to Jim. That’s all.<br /><br />If you insist on making jokes at our expense you can be sure we won’t have any issues making jokes at your expense. All in good fun, of course. After all, there’s nothing wrong with a few jokes is there? <br /><br />Be well my friend. <br /><br />Tom<br />

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Tom, <br /><br />Would you have any problems with me saying that Net54 is going in the direction of an elitist/secret society?<br /><br />I get along fine with most people on this Board, but there are many pre-war collectors that are afraid to post on this Board because they realize some Board Members aren't that nice.<br /><br />Peter C.

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>Dave F</b><p>Peter...<br />I'd have a problem with you saying this board is turning into an elitist/secret society...what are you basing that on??<br /><br />And if there are people on this board that are "not verY nice"...by all means point them out to avoid more secrets!

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>GoSoxBoSox</b><p>Not at all Peter.

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>Rob</b><p>In reference to the Lionel Carter slabs, isn't it also possible that the slabs could've been tampered with? If so, the card inside could be different than what the slab says is. Two scenarios I could see is <br /><br />1) Taking out the original card and putting in a different one, whether its a fake or just lower grade<br />2) Tampering with the slip in the slab to make it read as a higher grade and/or changing the serial number, etc<br /><br />Just food for though i guess<br />Rob<br /><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Dave F.,<br /><br />You are one of the nice guys, so I wasn't referring to you. It just seems like some pre-war collectors I have spoken with and had e-mail contact with feel the same way I do.<br /><br />Some of the Board Members think of themselves as being on the cutting edge of the hobby and if your post isn't on the cutting edge it will be ignored or ridiculed. Tom seems to agree with me to some degree.<br /><br />Peter C.<br />

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>GoSoxBoSox</b><p>I do agree Peter that a fair amount of the poster here can make others feel that way. But I certainly wouldn't put a huge number of the posters in that category.<br /><br />I think every forum has that issue to some degree. Hard to overcome that since all collectors are in a different place as to what and who they know in this hobby.

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Rob, my guess is that some oldtime collector knowing Carter's penchant for minty cards trimmed up some of his T206 cards in order to pass them by Lionel and make a sale or a trade. This probably happened in the 1950s or 60s when Lionel was putting his T206 set together.

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Tom,<br /><br />Only going by what Kevin told me--assumed he would know.<br /><br />I think secret society is funny--if I said elitist I am sure I meant it in jest--probably in regard to not letting Kevin back in.<br /><br />Actually reread everything I said--all was meant to be funny--still think you take it all too seriously and as you know I have quite a few buddies in LTS of which hope to again count you as one someday.<br /><br />Ready--smile Tom <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Never used to be high tech enough to do that.

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>Marty</b><p>I read about half of this thread so far. I have a couple of thoughts about posting certs of cards that may be bad. Should they post the cert #s that are good? This information is for the person who paid for it. Why should others benefit? I could see another level of "Club Members" that are charged a membership fee and they could be made aware of this information. <br /><br />On PSA's web site, you can look through cert #s around the one in question to see of there may have been others on the same invoice that were rejected. Is this good or bad? I do not believe that SGC offers this service, is this good or bad? You can not see who sent the cards in.

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>GoSoxBoSox</b><p>I am happy Jim. Those that know me in this hobby know that.<br /><br />I think your just upset that MW is spot on. SPOT ON. <br /><br />This venture you think is so great is a waste of time. It's a waste to even talk about. I actually thought you were smarter than to back something like this? But than again aren't you the genius that almost crossed 20,000 slabs from PSA to GAI? <br /><br />Genius!!! We should all follow you!!!

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Tom,<br /><br />Why is MW spot on-???-noone is asking for a financial guarantee. I just want Kevin's opinion and I will be glad to sign a waiver or whatever is rtequired. Come on Tom--you are smarter than that.<br /><br />I think it was actually pretty smart not to use GAI--if thats what you mean--many thanks.

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>Marc S.</b><p>Do you consider this thread a trainwreck?<br /><br />What percentage of threads that you start do you feel end up as trainwrecks?<br /><br />Anyway -- I hope that I never get pegged as one of those B-school elitists. The fact of the matter is that I applied to a whole bunch of business schools, and only a single one accepted me. I happily went, but I just reckon I'm a lucky guy, nothing more. <br /><br />And I never associate my collection, my friends, or my associations with having anything to do with net worth. If I ever become one of those guys, I do hope one of my true friends will shoot me.

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>GoSoxBoSox</b><p>Once again you read everything the way you want. You're a mess old man. I guess you are that stupid.

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>GoSoxBoSox</b><p>Marc,<br /><br />I miss you man. Shoot me a line. Let's catch-up.

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>Jimcrandell</b><p>Inability to comprehend a basic concept Tom? Read the words carefully three times out loud and you just might get it.<br /><br />Marc--do not know what you are getting at.

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>GoSoxBoSox</b><p>Bank roll him Jim if it's such a great idea. I get the concept. I'm just saying it's a dumb idea. I'm sure all of the "smart" collectors will be standing in line for a worthless fourth party opinion.<br /><br />Call me all of the names you want Jim. I love it.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>Jimcrandell</b><p>Tom Papa--"You're a mess old man. I guess you are that stupid.'<br /><br />Dav--"Inability to comprehends a basic concept Tom? Read the words three times out loud and you just might get it"<br /><br />TomPapa--"Call me all the names you want Jim. I love it.<br /><br />I think Tom must be reading his prior messages to me and thinking I sent them. This is hysterical.

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>There's nothing wrong with asking for an educated second opinion on a graded card, but, as long as the card is held within the holder, there's a limit to what someone, anyone, can detect. It may be that some kinds of problems will be able to be identified while the card is in the holder, which is why it's fine to ask someone to look over your newly purchased graded cards. However, the idea that all graded cards are beholden to an examination where the cards never leave the holder is silly. The graders at SGC examine all the cards raw, which means they have a superior view of all of the cards.<br /><br />Again I'm sure problems can be identified while the card is in the holder, but it's not legitimately possible to say a card isn't altered that hasn't been examined raw. One of the basic rules of examining paintings or prints or photos or such is that you have to remove the object from any holder, because the holder obstructs view.

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>GoSoxBoSox</b><p>Selectively cutting and pasting certain lines that don't tell the entire story on name calling won't mak your great venture any more lucrative. You can't side step the fact the idea is a horrible value to the people you expect to pay for that service.<br /><br />I can't wait to see how much you pay Kevin yourself for this highly valued service. You used to say the same thing about how great GAI and your pals over there are. At the same time you said Orlando is an ass and PSA sucks. <br /><br />You never put your money where your mouth was than because you knew it was a bad business move. My prediction is that you won't put your money where your mouth is on this one either. The fact of the matter is you chat up the services your friends provide, but put your money where it adds the best value to your collection.<br /><br />LTS was great according to you until the day we dropped you. Than we became evil. Grow-up Jim. <br /><br />I have e-mails and posts for parts of 4 years from you trashing people and companies. Than you stroke them in public and kiss their ass when it benefits you. I have dozens of items like this Jim from you trying to manipulate me for outcomes you have wanted on LTS or even back on the CU Forums during the Orlando fights. I know you're manipulative. I don't care what you say here because I have lived Jim Crandall first hand and have lots of proof to that effect.<br /><br />You're self serving to say the least. People that don't know that haven't been in some of the inner circles to know how low you stoop to get things your way.<br /><br />You're one of the top 5 two faced people I have met in this hobby. The fact that we don't like each other is the only reason you take shots at LTS over here. That's cool. I have time to kill.

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>GoSoxBoSox</b><p>I agree David. Nothing wrong with it, but why would somebody pay for that? Why go to a grading company in the first place if you have no trust for the service? And if Kevin is "the trusted source in the hobby" (which he is not) why not have him start a grading company and just go straight to him?<br /><br />It's just common sense really. I wouldn't invest $10 in this idea. But that's me. I understand that others here may want something like this. I'm just waiting to hear who and how many cards they are sending in?

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>Jimcrandell</b><p>"The idea is a horrible value to the people you expect to pay for that service"<br /><br />I will pay on expensive cards I buy for the service. I never said I expect anyone to pay. People can make their own decisions.<br /><br />"The fact that we don't like each other is the only reason you take shots at LTS over here."<br /><br />Tom--you have a huge ego--thats obvious--but the only time I ever think of you is when you jump on a message board and start blasting away.<br /><br />My hope is that people both on LTS and off LTS will look at my jabs at LTS and see Tom's responses and make up their own mind who the lunatic is here.

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>Brian</b><p>Jim,<br /><br />How many times have you been kicked off of a message board (CU and this LTS thing)?

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>GoSoxBoSox</b><p>But you care what they think of you over here. I don't. I'm just here to jerk your chain because everything I have said about your manipulative ways is documented by you. And I have it.

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>One of the top 5 two faced people: that equals ten people!

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>Richard</b><p>How much is Kevin Saucier charging to look at a slab?

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>Barry:<br /><br />I think it's actually only two and a half people.<br /><br />-Al

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>Jim, if you have never let Kevin review your collection, and you don't plan on allowing him to do so, how can you so confidently support him as a hobby expert? I'm not saying otherwise. I am just wondering how you arrived at this conclusion.

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>Another thought on this ill-conceived plan...<br /><br />If you see Kevin's value in so much as asking him to review cards you may purchase (at auction or for sale) how would you expect him to review the cards? For instance, let's say you are interested in a 1933 Goudey Sport King Ty Cobb in PSA 8 in a Mastro auction and you want him to review it prior to you bidding. HOw is he supposed to get access to it? I doubt that the auction house (or the consignor) would be very open to the idea of having him review it on the chance he may deem it altered. Access to these cards would seem to be a huge problem. Not unless you plan on employing a hidden camera or some other covert operation.

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>Jimcrandell</b><p>I will take the high road again and let people draw their own conclusions about Papa.<br /><br />Tom--if you want to publish my private e-mails to you--that you encouraged me to send to you and not put on LTS go right ahead--it would be right in line with your character.

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>Jimcrandell</b><p>Keith,<br /><br />This has all been said before--I have said on here many times that the plan is only workable when I buy directly from dealers.

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>GoSoxBoSox</b><p>If I wanted to hire anyone for a service like this it would be Moser. But it's still a dumb idea even with him.

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>Elliot</b><p>"My hope is that people both on LTS and off LTS will look at my jabs at LTS and see Tom's responses and make up their own mind who the lunatic is here."<br /><br />My vote: Look in the mirror Jim.<br><br>

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>Mark</b><p>I've offered my services before. I will, from time to time, and for little or no recompense, verify if Kevin is trimmed, altered or bleached in any way. I can detect if he has built-up corners, and I can determine if any part of him has, at any time, been erased. And I can do it all without removing him from his slab.

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>GoSoxBoSox</b><p>Encouraged? I did everything but put you on my spam filter. I even have proof of that.<br /><br />And everyone appreciates you giving them permission to draw their own conclusions. I'm sure they were all upset because until you gave permission I'm sure they felt they HAD to listen to you.

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>Brian</b><p>To my knowledge, Tom has never been kicked off of a message board. <br /><br />Jim, you have been kicked off of CU how many times? And at LTS at least once? You only started posting here after those two sites were taken away from you. <br /><br />I have seen this movie many times, it always stars Jim, and it always ends the same. At least you are the focus of the attention Jim, its good to be the star even if the star always dies....

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>OK, so you expect a dealer would allow Kevin to review the card? Maybe he could do it the first time since it could be done anonymously. But, once he is known it would seem to me that no dealer would give him access. What if he deemed a 5-figure card to be bogus? Even if he's right, what is the dealer supposed to do about that? What would you do about that as the prospective buyer? What would happen to the card? Would you just walk away and let it be another buyer's problem?<br /><br />I'm just curious because I see this going one of two ways... you guys begin a noble effort to shed light on bad cards and bad dealers for the benefit of the hobby (and other collectors)... or you simply use Kevin as an insurance plan to feel good about your own purchases and damn the next slob that comes along to buy the card should he deem it rotten and you walk away.<br /><br />In the words of Bill O'Reilly... What say you?

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Al- I multiplied, you divided. You can go either way with it.<br /><br />It's also like being one of the five most foremost people. That's a lot of people, too. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>Jim,<br /><br />I read here from time to time, but all I want to know is why are you so obsessed with LTS? It really doesn't make any sense. It's almost like breaking up with a girlfriend in high school, and you just keep on talking about it 20 years later. The funny thing is, no one cares except you it seems.<br /><br />I think Kevin does indeed have some pretty sharp skills, and I've seen it first hand but the question remains if the demand is there? Kevin... start your business and see how it goes. Overhead can't be a problem, since there really isn't any. Stickers are cheap no? We all know about it, so lets see it. You'll never know unless you try right? I wish you the best of luck with success.<br /><br />Jim, the relentless cheerleading for Kevin's cause runs hollow unless you back it up with your own cards. That is a simply fact that everyone here seems to get except you. Ultimately some 200+ thread posts later, your original intent of helping Kevin out has turned into another wreck with you pissing all over everyone with things that are pointless to the original thread.<br /><br />the motivation of this continuing is thus unclear. What ultimately is your goal in this hobby? Why do you feel your opinion so significant?<br /><br />Kevin... why don't you post? Don't you realize these rants just trivialize what your trying to do? I completely understand your desire to create brand value for your services, but threads like these aren't helping your cause my friend.<br /><br />Best of luck Kevin,<br /><br />Jero

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>Jim, another thought to mull over...<br /><br />So, here's a scenario... Kevin goes to Andy Madec and he allows him to review a card you are considering buying. Kevin reviews the card and gives it the green light. What then? Does Madec allow him to affix a new tamper evident seal to the slab? Does Kevin use a portable slabbing machine to slab the slab? It seems to me that he'd have to create some tangible, trackable seal of approval for the card so it retains his certification long after it changes hands again and again. Also, what does he do if the card is altered? Does Madec still allow him to seal or slab it with a rejected label? That would seem to be key for other collectors... hang the scarlet letter around the cards that need to be shunned by the backbone of the hobby.

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Con40 said it exactly...no dealer is going to allow their cards to be sent to Kevin after the first card gets rejected. If they have no problems selling SGC and PSA slabs why would they make it a little bit harder on themselves by adding another layer of scrutiny when it seems only a hand full of collectors are interested in a service that looks at $5,000+ cards.<br /><br />I doubt that Kevin could even make it if he decided to start his own grading company even in spite of the fact that he may be the best at detecting alterations....how many people here consider Mike Baker at GAI to be the best???? I hear it nearly everyday in here......yet most of the people making this claim don't have their cards slabbed by GAI.

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>GoSoxBoSox</b><p>So Jim. I read it slow and out loud like you said to three times. I even did it two more times to be safe. THAT'S FIVE TIMES!!!!!<br /><br />I still don't get it? Why did you give me another stupid idea? And if I'm the slow guy here why doesn't anyone else see the value I can't see?<br /><br />This lunatic is stumped. Please enlighten me ....I mean us ...on why this service is a no brainer and practical?

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>Paul</b><p>I'll be honest with you, I am at a complete loss how Jim can recommend a service that he has never actually used. It seems to have all the elements of those hollow celebrity endorsements on late night TV pitches. Hey, I wish Kevin all the luck in the world with whatever he does. Free enterprise! If enough people want this service, he'll do well. If not, then he'll fade into oblivion like my franchise for a penile reduction clinic.<br /><br />

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>MikeU</b><p>"my franchise for a penile reduction clinic."<br /><br />Paul, <br /><br />Do you have a web address, my situation has created severe back problems for me for years. I would be interested in correcting this. <br /><br /><br />

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>Joann</b><p>Actually, one way this works is if the dealer adds an upcharge to Jim in exchange for allowing a return privilege based on Kevin's opinion. <br /><br />It compensates the dealer for a slightly higher risk in the sale. He can sell an SGC graded card to X for $5K, or he can sell it to Jim for $5K with the Kevin-return agreement. Why would he not simply sell to X, who is willing to take it for $5K with no conditions? The upcharge makes the added risk (and possible admin related to a return) worth his while.<br /><br />The question of value added by Kevin's endorsement is also addressed in that the original dealer at least gets some of the additional value (although some should also rightly go to Jim who is paying for the endorsement). <br /><br />This motivates both people in the supply chain (buyer and seller) to support the use of Kevin's review and endorsement.<br /><br />Joann<br /><br />

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>Jimcrandell</b><p>Okay in reverse order,<br /><br />Paul,<br /><br />I am endorsing Kevin as one of the most knowledgeable people of cards I know. He has not filled me in on the details of his venture. I suggest checking his website next week when his up.<br /><br />GoSox,<br /><br />Because I want another pair of eyes looking at my expensive cards I buy and I trust Kevin more than anyone.<br /><br />Dan,<br /><br />I would be willing to bet a lot of money you are wrong.<br /><br />Keith,<br /><br />Don't know. Kevin's word is good with me--a seal would be good over time but I am looking for peace of mind more than a seal. Also you asked before why do I think Kevin is an expert--I have read what he has written on Net54 and on Scott and Jay's board. Also based on what Mike Baker thinks of him.<br /><br />Anonymous,<br /><br />If you publish your name I will answer you--if you don't I will assume you are from LTS and just stirring the pot.<br /><br />

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>GoSoxBoSox</b><p>So Joann,<br /><br />I hear ya and thanks for answering. So do you think this scenario you throw out is (1) practical (would people see the value in paying the fee), (2) fills a need in the hobby, and (3) Kevin is "the man" to fill that need?<br /><br />Because all three need to be there for a volume based business to succeed. Unless the upcharge is big enough to take away the need for volume. But that kind of upcharge would probably make the service impractical.<br /><br />I wish Kevin the best of luck. I'm just being honest that I don't think 1, 2, and 3 are there.<br /><br />You and others may differ in your opinion. So be it.<br /><br />Life is still great!! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Tom<br /><br />

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>Jimcrandell</b><p>Joann,<br /><br />Several dealers have an inventory of high priced cards that they own. The way a purchase would work is as follows. I call dealer X and ask him to send me a scan of his 1933 Goudey Ruth PSA 8. Card looks fine on the scan so I ask him to mail it to Kevin. I pay mail fee and I pay Kevin's charge. If Kevin comfortable I buy the card. If not I return the card--I am out two mailing fees and Kevin's fee. Dealer owns card still. Contrary to what I think Dan and Keith said I am confident certain dealers would let me do this repeatedly.

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>Jim, so you see this more as a personal service for you and your collecting goals? I was looking at a bigger picture. Taking my cue from your often-stated mission to clean up the hobby and rid it of bad cards... what would you do about the cards that Kevin rejects? To me, this is a very fundamental issue with his service that could 1) benefit just you, as you seem to be indicating tonight, or 2) benefit the entire hobby, which you have often stated is a goal of yours.

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>Steve Murray</b><p>And I will ask again...what if Kevin deems the card altered?<br /><br />From what I've read Jim would:<br /><br />1) Pass on the card; and<br />2) Allow the card to remain in the market without saying a word.<br /><br />Now, how does that clean up the hobby?

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Jim, I'm guessing the dealer may not want to go this route because he may have a hard time selling card X if Kevin rejects it...He would be relying on the confidentiality of others to keep that quiet if he is to sell it to JoeSchmo who doesn't require Kevin's stamp of approval. But in that scenario if you keep that quiet then IMO that goes against everything that you previously stated when you first arrived on the Net54 scene to help clean up the problem cards in our hobby. All of this seems self-serving.

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Please put your first and last name by your posts and your correct email address...If you don't then you can't post anymore in this thread....Nothing personal at all....same rules for everyone....take care

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>Jimcrandell</b><p>Keith,<br /><br />I have explained this as well but here we go again...<br /><br />I view this as a personal service for those willing to pay for it. I just explained to Joann Keith what happens to the cards that Kevin has concerns about--they go back to the dealer I bought them from.<br /><br />I want to help the hobby but this in particular is an initiative to help me from buying bad cards. And just a correction--my goal has not been to rid the hobby of bad cards but to stop the flow of new bad ones into holders.

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>Sean C</b><p>After getting called out for the real reason that you won't have Kevin examine the cards in your collection, that's the best you can come up with: "I know you are, but what am I" <br /><br />Guess I overestimated you. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br />================================================< br /><br />Sean C<br />(Login schr1st) I don't think it's just me, but... November 19 2007, 7:22 AM <br /><br /><br />I'd be just as concerned about the altered cards I currently had in my collection as the ones I'm potentially buying, especially since I'd be paying extra insurance premiums on potentially worthless (or less valuable) cards. I guess Jim doesn't want to know how badly he may have been taken advantage of in the past, and how much "dead wood" he may have in his card vault. As the old saying goes, ignorance is bliss. <br /><br /><br />JimCrandell <br />(Login Davalillo) Re: Kevin Saucier - Adding Value November 19 2007, 6:29 AM <br /><br /><br />Whoops Jim--I found your "penetrating" corrections--wow--no wpnder I avoided them.<br /><br />1)I don't think everydody elses cards are altered<br /><br />2)I want to have another check on expensive cards I buy because I believe some cards have slipped through.<br /><br />3)Just because to my knowledge I don't have any altered cards does not mean I don't--I just don't know which of the 28,000 graded they may be?<br /><br />Those were penetrating Jim--any other penetrating ones? <br /><br /><br /> <br /> Edit Message <br /> <br />JimCrandell <br />(Login Davalillo) Re: Kevin Saucier - Adding Value November 19 2007, 7:40 AM <br /><br /><br />Sean,<br /><br />You are a fool--but as they say and its certainly true with you ignorance is bliss. <br /> <br />

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>Joann</b><p>Jim,<br /><br />Oh - OK. I get it. I was thinking of it more as a return privilege at some undetermined time after purchase - so the dealer may have committed the money elsewhere, passed up another sale, etc while it was being reviewed. <br /><br />Tom,<br /><br />I think the answer to each of your three questions, and also the answer to all three collectively, is that the market will decide. <br /><br />Is it practical? I guess I don't know - I don't run in those financial circles so I'm not sure what is considered practical for a $5000 card. It definitely seems practical to at least one person - Jim - who intends to go that route.<br /><br />Does it fill a hobby need? Again, I don't know. But intuitively I think it at least gets at a hobby need, if not filling it. There is a general sense that the grading (and authentication) industry needs something that is higher dollar and higher focus in terms of service and review of high end cards specifically for alteration and not just grade. I definitely feel like there is a niche out there that is not being filled by the current players.<br /><br />Is Kevin the person to do it? Well, this may surprise you, but I don't know. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> Actually, this question goes along with the first question. If there is a need to be filled, is this the way to go about it and is Kevin the person to do it? <br /><br />Which brings me back to the market sorting it out. I can't answer the questions, but the market will sort it out.<br /><br />Personally, I think that the best shot to have it work is to get it to the point where sellers seek Kevin's endorsement. To get to that point, there has to be some value established. If the seal can start to take on perceived value the same way slabs do now, then the selling community will start seeking out the seals and at that point it will take off.<br /><br />The trick is to get Kevin to that point before the major grading companies decide that there is, in fact, a niche here and offer their own high-end-close-review-super-expert-extra-attention service.<br /><br />J

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>John</b><p>Until they find out that is what is going on or until you reject the first card.<br /><br />I'm curious if Kevin or whomever came up with this fantastic idea of grading graded cards has been reading the PCGS coin forums for the past several months.<br /><br />It seems that there's a group of dealers that have formed a stickering service to sticker coins in PCGS/NGC/ANACS slabs that are "worthy" of their sticker. There was all sorts of hype about this venture and it was dumped on the masses and said to be for the collector and for the good of the hobby.......for a "modest" fee of course.<br /><br />What a load of Crap. It's good for someone's wallet Period. It's just another (not even good) idea on how to prey upon the fears of collectors and a way to pry more money out of them for yet another service on an already professionally graded coin, which since it is holdered you cannot see the 3rd side, aka the Rim.<br /><br />The professionally graded coin, much like the card, is backed by a guarantee. What about this almighty card sticker? What sort of guarantee is there? Is there cold hard cash behind it when an error occurs because they do occur.<br /><br />I have no problem asking some of my friends, whom I know are knowledgeable about a specific series, about a card and sending them a link to the card or forwarding the scans. Those opinions are very valuable to me and all part of friendship. <br /><br />Sending the card to a person or asking a dealer to send a card to a person so I can get an opinion on it before I buy it is just plain ridiculous.<br /><br /><br /><br />

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>Jimcrandell</b><p>Dan,<br /><br />I respect your opinion but I am doing nothing wrong in asking Kevin to look at a prospective card. Most collectors collect for themselves right? As I explained I want the grading companies to toughen grading standards and overall knowledge about altered cards so nthey can identify--I want auction houses to stop taking creases out of cards and reject cards from suspicious people(doctors). I don't think any of my ideas have ever concerned attacking issue of existing altered cards in holders.<br /><br />Steve,<br /><br />Who said this was designed to clean up the hobby--why do you think that?

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>GoSoxBoSox</b><p>I hear ya Joann. I think everyone here is actually giving their opinion in one way or another on how they think the market will react. None of us know for sure <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> But many of have been around the hobby long enough to pretty much know. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />The day dealers offer that service you mentioned is the day they all admit their other services are garbage. It'll never happen.<br /><br />What the point of a forum without a good debate, right? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>Steve Murray</b><p>Jim:<br /><br />I haven't been on this board as long as you but it seems that "cleaning up the hobby" has been your focus in most every thread you participate in. I seem to recall several threads you started asking the auction houses to sign on to some kind of code of conduct.<br /><br />Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe it is just all about you.

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>Brian</b><p>(Third time might be a charm)<br /><br /><br />Jim,<br /><br />How many times have you been kicked off of a message board (CU and this LTS thing)?

Kevin Saucier - Adding Value
 

Posted By: <b>Keith</b><p>Leon... thanks for the reminder, but the addy works fine.<br /><br />Jim, what is a service like this worth to you on a per card basis? <br /><br />Though your description would seem tailor-made to satisfy your needs, it is somewhat unique as most high-end collectors do purchase through auction houses and it doesn't seem conceivable that your model would work in that arena. Kevin would definitely need an expanded service offering to appeal to as many well-heeled collectors as possible. His business as it is defined by you is more a paid favor than a way to earn a living.<br />