Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>Kevin Saucier</b><p>"I had visions of a slab within a slab LOL."<br /><br /><br /><br />It been done!<br /><br /><img src="http://images1.collectors.com/psa/set_registry/m585906/71garvey.JPG"><br /><br /><br />Mike Baker and I were having some fun. The authentic grade is for the autograph which is on the outside of the PSA slab.<br /><br />Kevin<br /><br />

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Let's say there was an amazing grader or grading company that you trusted, would you be willing to allow them to regrade the cards you bought 10 years ago?<br /><br />Let's say that somebody else was picking up the tab for the regrading, an outside third party.<br /><br />Would you be willing to take the chance that your PSA 9 was really a PSA 8?<br /><br />Peter C.

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>pas</b><p>I guess we have had this discussion before but I don't see why "10 year old" cards are any more suspect than cards being graded today.

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>Charlie Barokas</b><p>Jim,<br /><br />You are right to be paranoid about trimmed cards in holders. However, if the card does not look trimmed in the holder and it is graded as such, the market place is going to accept the card. No matter what any third party, that does not work for a professional grading service says. <br /><br />If your goal is to build sets on the PSA registry, why on earth would you care what someone other than the graders at PSA think?<br /><br />CB

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Charlie,<br /><br />Because I want my cards to be completely unaltered--if it looked great but I knew it was altered I would not like the card.<br /><br />I know for a fact others feel that way too Charlie.

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>pas</b><p>I think Charlie's point is that this is an art not a science, and that beyond the obvious cases it is a matter of opinion. Thus, it seems rational (at least to an observer) that the opinion that should matter most is that of PSA.

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Jim,<br /><br />Here's the problem, if you want to go through this new procedure with the cards you are buying. Why not go through the same procedure with cards you have already bought?<br /><br />Peter C.

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>Charlie Barokas</b><p>Peter,<br /><br />Well said.<br /><br /><br />Jim,<br /><br />You are an astute collector and I am not trying to tell you how to collect cards. But, I think layering professionally third party graded cards with opinions from non-professional third party graders is a slippery slope. <br /><br />Anybody who is making definative judgements regarding alteration without seeing the card out of the holder, is making an educated guess. If you want to be as certain as you can regarding alterations, the card must be broken out of the holder for a proper evaluation. <br /><br />There are some cards even out of the holder that exhibit both signs of originality and evidence of trimming. Some factory cuts look like trimming and some trimming looks like a factory cut. In this case, it is really a coin flip and it is not knowable wheter the card was trimmed or not. Therefore, it is up to a professional third party grading company to stand behind the desicion to grade it or not. And once the decision is made you have the power of the brand and credibility of said grading company as your insurance policy.<br /><br />CB<br /><br />

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Have we exhausted this topic yet?

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Isn't Jim's position that he doesn't want to cost himself money by having his entire collection reviewed, but, at least going forward, does not want to spend large bucks on altered/slabbed cards? Why do these two concepts have to be mutually exclusive?

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>Kevin Saucier</b><p>"I think Charlie's point is that this is an art not a science, and that beyond the obvious cases it is a matter of opinion."<br /><br /><br />IMO grading is more an art, alteration detection is more science. In most cases the opinion is based on one or more objective findings. To answer an earlier question; it is much more difficult to inspect a card in a holder, taking about 4x as long. When the card is tight against the holder, sometimes an accurate assessment cannot be made at all. btw…hi Peter!<br /><br />Charlie is correct, once graded, the flip now becomes more important than the card to some collectors. <br /><br />Al – you are right I am not an “independent expert.” Although I have never claimed to be an expert (not exactly sure what qualifies) I an am independent, loyal to no company and cannot be bought or strong-armed. <br /><br /><br />Kevin Saucier

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>Alan Elefson</b><p>They are not mutually exclusive as Jim is asking auctioneers to stand behind every card they are consigned while he refuses to let his own collection be inspected in a similar manner. <br /> Jim, this question has been asked before (and I cannot remember your answer), when you go to sell one (or all of your cards), will you stand behind it the way you are asking Barry and his consigners to do so? Will you "take the hit" on any cards that are reviewed and determined to be altered in some way? If so, then while I disagree with what you are requesting, I at least do not see any hipocracy (sic) behind it. <br />Alan Elefson<br />aelefson@hotmail.com<br />

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>PS</b><p>Only Jim can decide what makes sense to him, and this is just a general observation, but I think many of us would view the position articulated by Jeff as inconsistent. If it makes a difference to you whether or not your cards are altered despite being slabbed, you can't just grandfather all the cards you already have.

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>Matt</b><p>Peter - while it might make a difference to you, that doesn't mean you're going to undertake the job of having it done; after all, you own them already; you're can't un-buy them.

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>PS</b><p>Matt but you can sell them. My point is if it is of such paramount importance not to own altered cards, and one thinks one needs opinions beyond those of the grading services to ensure that, then logically it seems to me one would examine cards one already owns as well as new ones or at least cards over a certain value. Just an opinion on a subject where there is no right answer.

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>Matt</b><p>Peter - I agree it makes sense for one to do it, but since there is a time and financial investment needed to make it happen, and you already own them, it might not get done. Now, if you were selling them, then I agree; but just to keep, I don't see anything hypocritical about it.

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Matt, that's my point: Jim has like 20,000 slabs -- what is he supposed to do? Spend all that time and money and have them regraded? Can't he just decide going forward to be much, much more careful with how he spends his money?

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>Larry</b><p>I keep hearing about how grading companies are stricter now than they were 10 or 15 years ago, but the majority of cards I see in old holders are more harshly graded. A card resting in a PSA-7 slab from 1995 would in most cases rate PSA-8 now. Nowhere is this more obvious than with pre-war cards when you line the slabs up side-by-side and compare card edge and corner wear.<br /><br />Just take a look at the T-205 cards that are rating PSA-7 now. The amount of chipping and corner wear they accept as Near Mint now is just plain idiotic. Ten years ago, those would have been resting in a PSA-6 holder.

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Larry,<br /><br />Unfortunately PSA in particular has a lot of inconsistency. The reverse is also true. Some graded 10 years ago were given a lot of leeway and recently the same card is graded more leniently.<br /><br />Peter C.

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Jeff,<br /><br />Thank you--you articulated my position well.<br /><br />Alan,<br /><br />I have no plans to sell my cards. My son tells me he will take my collection to 200 sets PSA 8 and better.<br /><br />The Two Peters,<br /><br />I am not resubmitting my cards for the one millionth time no matter how much you want me too. There are a lot of big time PSA collectors(Merkel, Fogel, Spence, Branca , Louchios etc) and none of them are regrading their cards so knock it off now!

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>PS</b><p>Jim I personally do not care at all whether you resubmit your cards or not, so as you say, please do not ascribe emotions to me. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> I do think, however, since you raised the subject of getting second opinions on new purchases, it is a fair discussion to ask about how your views on the necessity of second opinions applies to your existing collection. The question also goes beyond your personal collection and may be of interest to others facing similar issues although on a smaller scale. Perhaps you have stated your views on this before but if you did I missed them, so I was genuinely interested. That's all.

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I don't see any of the gentlemen you mentioned talk so incessantly about altering and cleaning up the hobby therefore they are held to a different standard, imo, than someone like yourself who is "leading" the charge .....but from the rear. I will always feel that your mesmerization with the whole issue is due to the number of high grade cards in your collection that you feel are probably tainted. Please don't consider this a personal attack as it's not and I am sure you will aggressively deny my opinion...it's ok......regards

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>Lawrence</b><p>Jim C-<br /><br />I have brought this up to you before and this maybe a sore spot so clearly I will mention this politely so you do not get defensive:<br /><br />1-If you want to really clean up the hobby, you need to really look at your own collection first, have Kevin S(someone you admire) really go through your collection and let you know the % of cards that "could be tainted" even if you want them to be kept by your family. Maybe you will be surprised since many of your posted cards are OLD labels and even though you think two graders graded this, they were far more naive as to what was going on then than now and the standards were so much looser than currently....and some of your nice cards are possibly now considered overgraded including the T205 in an 8 PSA holder that has white at the tip. <br /><br />2-NO one should be obligated to give a money back guarantee on BRANDED THIRD PARTY cards graded except for the grading services that put the cards in the holder. If you are unhappy with your purchase, CONTACT AND PRESS THE SERVICE TO HONOR THEIR DECISION, they put that card in that holder, no dealer did that. If you are so confident that the grading services are correct about your 28,000 cards percentage wise, then maybe you should feel that same way about the majority of cards comparably graded at the same ratio that others possess...or consider that maybe a given percentage of your high grade cards especially early ### cards may have been tainted, and maybe sold to you by those you think are so knowledgable........ <br /><br />3-There are quality tiers of auction houses and their reliability , no question, however there are many reliable dealers that sell at shows, e bay etc...and they are subject to the same rules that Barry Sloate has stated, we rely on third party graders to make the decisions of gradability. Collectors and Dealers are not responsible for that decision, and we are all paying for a branded product. If that was not the case why wouldn't you would crack all your cards out if you did not care? Certainly, Mr. Louchious, Spence etc. and other advanced collectors are very important to this hobby and are still buying what they need currently. They are continually active thru e bay, private sales or auction houses. <br /><br />Currently PSA, SGC and GAI are all MUCH tougher now. I really do not know how much you currently spend in the hobby, nor is it my business, but those above mentioned are extremely important to the hobby NOW, not 5-10 years ago. I admire your collection and best wishes for you and your family.

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>John</b><p>Still waiting to hear what amazing cards Kevin has so skillfully passed by folks (SGC, PSA, GAI etc.) as Jim eluded too, or has this wives tale yet to be addressed? Kevin you should have no problems showing us some pictures or telling us some stories either…after all as you openly stated below.<br /><br />“you are right I am not an “independent expert.” Although I have never claimed to be an expert (not exactly sure what qualifies) I an am independent, loyal to no company and cannot be bought or strong-armed.”<br /><br />Eagerly awaiting your response, its go time I’m excited to see what you’ve done, and how you’ve helped our little hobby out or made it a safer place!<br />

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>Kevin Saucier</b><p>I have no problem showing my various alterations that have been graded but as typical I find your arrogance and demeaning tone insulting to say the least. <br /><br />Here are just "a few" examples of some cards that were not just slightly altered or simply soaked....those can always get past. These were testing the limits in various ways.<br /><br />I can only imagine this will still not satisfy your relentless attempt to try and degrade and demoralize. I am quite sure that you will find some other way to continue your antagonistic questioning. <br /><br />If you do some research you will find plenty of examples I have posted in the past. Is it not enough that I try to help by posting educational material?<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><img src="http://img210.imageshack.us/img210/1896/33cohenjs9.jpg"> <img src="http://img525.imageshack.us/img525/9263/33kolpft9.jpg"><br /><br />Erasers are too easy. These were chemically treated instead. Seems PSA and SGC had no problems bumping the grades. I believe Cohen was also retoned.<br /><br /><br /><br /><img src="http://img399.imageshack.us/img399/280/improvedil7.jpg"><br /><br />Each of these cards had harsh or large stains removed with various chemicals. Each was bumped by two grades...Easterly was bumped 3 grades, it was a BVG 1.<br /><br /><br /><img src="http://img526.imageshack.us/img526/7034/33lindstromih6.jpg"><br /><br />There is still a clear mark left intentionally on back along with some ink loss. It was also retoned. <br /><br /><br /><img src="http://webpages.charter.net/sabrjay/altered/1911moran.JPG"><br /><br />Graciously given to me by a collector friend. This card had a rebuilt corner and two "very obviously" trimmed edges. It took several steps and a lot of time to make it look normal. That includes giving the trimmed edges vintage-like cuts, which proves that a trimmed card can be made to look untrimmed... not easy to do at all. <br /><br /><br /><br /><img src="http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s139/only_child//psa6_bleached.jpg"><br /><br />Testing the limits, this card was put in about 6 different chemicals. The last one I thought would melt the card. It was submitted with such a strong odor that it was almost unbelievable that a hazmat team was not called. Instead they graded it a 6. There is also a very obvious stain that was partially left on the back.<br /><br /><br /><br /><img src="http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s139/only_child//sgc_leach.jpg"><br /><br />Stains and marks removed with a bleaching solution and sent in without deodorizing or trying to mask the alteration. You can see a bleached-out spot on front. Also, I can still see the indentation marks on the back...yet it still passed. <br /><br />________________________________________<br /><br />The mother of all doctoring examples:<br /><br /><br />This was a T206 Rube Marquard card purchased with a huge glob of almost unremovable glue on the back, stained, dirty and dinged. In this condition it was virtually ungradeable and I doubt it would have even been slabbed "authentic" based on the relatively low value and poor condition. <br /><br />In all, this card went through over 30 steps, again to test the limits. This goes far beyond doctoring. <br /><br />It was placed in several different chemicals, bleached and rebleached about 4 times - each time using a different solution, toned and retoned a few times, dings removed, plus soaked dried at least a dozen times. The entire process took a couple weeks. <br /><br />Here is the card in the middle of the process. Note the glue has been removed (not by water) and it is shown in one of the "many" bleached-out stages. <br /><br /><img src="http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s139/only_child/rube3aq9-1.jpg"><br /><br />Here is how the card looked once completed. Submitted as you see it and without being deodorized.<br /><br /><img src="http://i151.photobucket.com/albums/s139/only_child/rubepsa.jpg"><br /><br /><br /><br />If you notice there are no examples of GAI graded cards. Mike Baker (who I consider a friend and colleague) and I have a gentleman's agreement. Years ago he invited me down to Global's HQ and, after viewing a few very high-end altered cards, asked that I not try to get any past him. I have honored my word since. I now bring all my doctored cards to him. He gets full explanations and I reveal all my secrets. This is, in his opinion and mine, how the best gets better.<br /><br /><br /><br />Kevin Saucier <br />

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Kevin,<br /><br />For someone who has dedicated himself to trying to help the hobby its amazing that you can get such abuse from people that know very little.<br />Of course he will say who me and turn his sarcasm to me but that's par for the course.<br /><br />Thanks once again for trying to help the hobby Kevin. Your efforts deserve their gratitude not their abuse.<br /><br />Lawrence,<br /><br />I know you mean well but simply put its not going to happen--not by me and not by any substantial holder of graded cards. I am happy with my cards--they all look good to me and I don't intend to sell them in my lifetime and I plan to live another 30-plus years. My goals are for the grading companies to become more diligent and stop altered cards from getting into holders. For those that are already in holders what is done is done. Sorry to disappoint you.<br /><br />Leon,<br /><br />My friend--you seem obsessed on trying to figure out why I am doing what I am doing rather than actually getting out there yourself and take a stand at the practices of the auction houses. Stop trying to be a psychologist. Meant in the same spirit as your comments toward me.<br /><br />In terms of leading the charge, I thought there was a good basis to go forward with a code of ethics to lead the hobby forward and even Mastro was dragged kicking and screaming to do something positive. I think Barry and Jeff had some constructive comments and perhaps one or two others but thats it. If people on here don't really care except for those who want me to resubmit my 28,000 cards then I am not going to press it. <br /><br />Cheers,<br /><br />Jim

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>Lawrence</b><p>Jim C-<br /><br />I am not dissapointed, they are your cards but I would be interested in taking a random sample if they were mine just to get better insight to see what I have in problem cards...I hope you do not think that this is a personal gain for me, it really is not my intention nor do I go about under the pretext as someone that wants to revolutionize and clean up the hobby although I do not like the bad trimming that goes on.<br />I have been around many years to see through smoke screens and the hobby has many. Still, it is a great hobby and it is just that to many on the boards here.<br /><br />You seem to be very knowledgable and fiscally intelligent, sometimes less said on open forums has more impact to many when you do post. There are many opinions that get posted here but one thing that seems to be shared by many that view, perceived pompousness does not add to leadership quality.

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Thanks Lawrence--good luck.

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>John</b><p>Kevin, <br /><br />Thanks for posting, interesting but I’m not sure what I’m taking from it or can take from it. Yours is going to be a thankless job to a degree even you have to understand that. It’s easy to post pictures; I could do the same and claim that I had squeezed by all these grading companies with the above cards or any other picture of a graded card. What does it prove? If we take your word for it maybe it proves something, but if we don’t know you from “Adam” it could be just another guy on here with an eraser and an overblown story telling ability. <br /><br />Kevin not that it’s your fault, I do find your posts interesting to say the least. But I’m sorry if I can’t blindly leap into the you’re the super card expert, especially when people like Jim say that your opinion matters over that of an established company such as any of the named grading companies or auction houses. It’s going to take a lot more than handful of pictures and one line blurbs to garner you that respect.<br /><br />I hope you can see my point, you may find me arrogant ok whatever, but what I find even more arrogant is that you and or Jim think your word is more valuable than established auction houses and or grading companies from someone who is little more than a basement card experimenter or hobbyist. For you or Jim to expect any auction house to take cards back on your word alone is a bit arrogant…once again no offense but who are you again?<br /><br />Maybe I am hard on you who knows if I am I’m sorry, it’s just my take an my point of view hope you can understand where I'm coming from?<br /><br />Regards,<br /><br />John

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>John</b><p>Jim,<br /><br />Don’t you get tired carrying that cross around all the time? I may be sarcastic Jim, but god you’re boring and predictable, I could set my watch to you guy. LOL<br /><br />“For someone who has dedicated himself to trying to help the hobby its amazing that you can get such abuse from people that know very little.”<br /><br />Kevin if you’re looking at your arrogance meter it may have just peaked.<br /><br />Yes, perhaps one day Jim I will be as knowledgeable about this hobby as you and Kevin are…one can only hope I guess. <br />

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>What did I tell you!!!--my prediction came exactly true. I love it. Only this time he attacked you too Kevin. Lets see Kevin, you basement experimenter you, when did either one of us claim you were better than SGC or PSA. Only in the Wonka world can you offer yourself selflessly to help the hobby and get ridiculed for it.

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Guys,<br /><br />Wonka, Barry, and Dan are virtually the only guys on Net54 that have any objectivity and creativity when they post. So guys don't attack John or you will have an off-the-wall poster breathing down your backs. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Peter C.

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>Wesley</b><p>John is right. There are a lot of guys who mess around with card and paper experiments in their basements. Some of them do this for fun (like Kevin) and others do it to slip by grading companies for profit. What makes Kevin more knowledgeable than the other guys who get cards past the graders? Because he makes a few posts on message boards? Nothing personal against Kevin because he seems like a very nice guy (Hi Kevin) but to think his opinion carries more weight than established grading companies or auction houses is ridiculous.<br /><br /><br />

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Wesley,<br /><br />You are setting up a straw man here--nobody said his opinion carries more than SGC or PSA --you are just repeating Wonka.<br /><br />Take the time to read all of Kevin's post on the other message board and I think you should change your mind.

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>Wesley</b><p>Jim, Kevin has never reviewed any of your cards. You have never seen Kevin's work. How do you know of his expertise?

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Wes,<br /><br />The unfortunate part about having grading companies look at all your cards is that there's a whole new generation of collector's that have no idea on how to grade cards on their own.<br /><br />I'll put my personal judgment up against 75% of the PSA graders, because I have been informally grading cards for 20 years and I'm not blind yet. Although, I do feel that I am getting more and more nearsighted. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Peter C.

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>Wesley</b><p>Peter C,<br />We're talking about more than grading cards and assigning numeric grades. We're talking about sophisticated alterations vs. basement experiments and what can get past the graders.

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>As Wes said you can be sure there are plenty of people out there who make a handsome living from their basement experiments. And loads of these cards have gotten past the graders.

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Yup--Peter is better than 9 of 12 of psa graders. Hard for me to say anything else here. Peter--maybe I should have you look at my cards instead of Kevin <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Wes--it is based on all the stories related to me, correspondence between us and what I have read here and other places. I think he is an expert--does he know more than the graders--certainly about some things--heck, he has taught the best grader in the hobby a few things.

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>Who is the best grader in the hobby?<br /><br />-Al

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Mike. You may think differently Al but you cannot be completely objective.

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>I asked a question, that's all. I didn't voice an opinion.<br /><br />-Al

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>You're right--thought this was a consensus view.

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>John</b><p><img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/junkforumimages/boss_watch.gif"><br /><br />Actually Jim, Wes or anyone else for that matter isn’t repeating me, just you. Or did you forget about the below comments in this very thread? Sure seems like your asking people to put Kevin’s professional opinion above that of the grading companies and or selected auction houses…<br /><br />And once again you only read what you want to, why not let Kevin and I debate this I actually am interested in Kevin’s thoughts and hope he can see my point of view as I try to grasp his. Believe it or not Jim we can do this with out you tagging along for the ride and tossing unnecessary fuel on the fire.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />“On our friend Kevin, while he may not have all the answers he certainly has recognized a fair amout of altered cards in holders and has shown the ability to get alterations by the best graders in the business. Not only did Kevin not pay me to say this but I am buying him dinner the week after next.”<br /><br />“By the way Barry if I bought something at your auction and sent it to Kevin to look at and he told me the card looked suspicious would you let me return the card?”<br /><br />“Lets let Barry answer it Peter--Barry if I bought 5 high end cards in your auction, sent them to Kevin and Kevin said in his opinion only two could he say with confidence have not been altered could I return the other 3???”<br /><br />“But to reiterate if I bought a $15,000 card off a dealer's sell list, I would say its contingent upon Kevin's seal of approval. Dealer sends me card--I send to Kevin, Kevin returns card to me with his opinion and I either then send check to dealer or return the card.”<br />

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Litigation is a strange world, but here's a concept that may move the discussion forward. Don't bother with a third-party expert opinion until the lawsuit is filed.<br /><br />In other words if you do not trust a vendor with graded cards, don't buy from them. If there's a subsequent lawsuit then get a third-party opinion.<br /><br />Peter C.

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>PAS</b><p>I have no opinion on who the best grader is but it seems the market does not necessarily have a consensus view that it is Mike, given where GAI cards seem to be selling relative to SGC and PSA.

Irrational Exuberance Low Number High Grade 1933 Goudeys
 

Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>I would imagine that anybody who has a dog in this race would be unable to offer an unbiased opinion on who is the best grader in the hobby.<br /><br />Furthermore, I'm unaware of any way that collectors like us can tell which individual graded any particular card that's currently in a holder. So I'm not sure how to judge which individual person is the best grader. I know which companies I trust and which company I don't, but that's about as far as my limited knowledge can take me.<br /><br />-Al

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>To answer John's question, and after giving this matter some thought, all sales are final on graded cards unless the grading company made an error of such magnitude that it was impossible for me to deny it. If a card is graded PSA 5 and the buyer complains the corner looks flattened, we are done.<br /><br />That's my policy, and I stand behind it (or even in front of it).

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Thank you Wonka--you made my point--now keep your sarcasm to yourself.

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Posted By: <b>John</b><p><br />Really Jim I did, you actually had a point and I made it. Well I guess there is a first time for everything? <br /><br />As for your order to keep to myself well, to quote a phrase that's all the rage...no thanks Jim I wont be "strong armed by anyone" don’t like my views oh well get over it. <br />

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Posted By: <b>Kevin Saucier</b><p>"Because he makes a few posts on message boards? Nothing personal against Kevin because he seems like a very nice guy (Hi Kevin) but to think his opinion carries more weight than established grading companies or auction houses is ridiculous."<br /><br /><br /><br />Great, then I won't post about how to identify altered cards any longer.<br />Saves me time, engery and a lot of headaches. I've never said my opinion carries more weight than anyone or any company...or ever claimed to be an expert. <br /><br />_______________________<br /><br />"What makes Kevin more knowledgeable than the other guys who get cards past the graders?"<br /><br /><br />Nothing. The only excpetion is those guys steal from you and I try to show you how they do it.<br /><br />________________________<br /><br />John - I give up, your posts are far beyond any comment I can make. Other than you are a prime example of why IMO collectors would rather lurk then post here. I'm going back to my basement.<br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Don't do that. I've always valued your opinion. However, I'm not overly concerned about altered cards. If I get mad enough, I'm just going to file a lawsuit and sue everybody. Except for you guys of course, I have too much fun on this board to do that. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Peter C.

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Posted By: <b>Wesley</b><p>Kevin, Please don't take the comments personally. I think your paper experiments are very interesting. It was Jim who asked that sales and returns be contingient on your opinion. This might be reasonable, but some may wonder why your opinion trumps those of an auction house or those of third party graders.

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Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>I've never seen Kevin be anything but pleasant and helpful on this board. Very clearly in this thread, and in others he has participated in, he hasn't been afforded the same courtesy. I've never read him post that his opinion should be taken up by all, or trumps others, he's simply offered it. And for that, he's been undercut and disparaged.<br />If Jim wants to trumptet Kevin's skills as more than that, I don't see that as any reason to feel the need to 'cut him down to size'. And that's the way some posts read in this thread.<br /><br />Piss poor IMO.<br /><br /><br />Daniel

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Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>You remind me of some kid running between groups of 'popular' peers, trying to massage everyone into liking and listening to you. Boy its gotten tiring reading 12 posts by you in a thread when you don't add any knowledge - just energetic mouthings. <br /><br /><br />Daniel

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Posted By: <b>John</b><p>“John - I give up, your posts are far beyond any comment I can make. Other than you are a prime example of why IMO collectors would rather lurk then post here.”<br /><br />Kevin,<br /><br />Come on your more intelligent than that…<br /><br />I’m the prime example of why so many great people don’t post here.<br /><br /><br />Here is the hearsay yet to be proven IMO,<br /><br />You can get most anything past graders and are some sort of super hero. <br /><br />Tons of super collectors are scared off by me and others on this board. Hmmmm the other board is according to you and others some sort of wonderland utopia. I post there too good board (Hi Jay, Scott) yet I don’t see Don L, Marshall F or any other super collectors posting over there. What gives? In fact for the most part I see the same names different GUI, perhaps these so called closet collectors just don’t post, because they don’t care too?<br /><br /><br />Here are the facts, <br /><br />Lots of folk’s post here including myself. I actually post far less than many others. I only really post to either share images, or voice opinions on subjects I feel strongly about. Sometimes that means I disagree with you or someone else, that can mean we don’t see eye to eye oh well. I will call it as I see it which seems to be more than some folks can handle. I can’t help that, perhaps these folks should stay away from boards where differences of opinions can be had. <br /><br />You have shown a handful of images of so called doctored cards, you openly brag about doctored cards and how talented you are at getting them by graders. You really show very little proof of this, short of generic images, with mild story lines below them. You alluded to a book that you would be selling, and then changed your tune with a series of charitable posts which was appreciated and very nice for the record. You are however very vague in your discussions around your doctoring hobby and what your overall goal is, sorry if I’m not ready to blindly believe you and take your posts as some sort of gold. The one thing you have shown with out a doubt is that fraud in this hobby can be done via doctoring; but most folks know this is nothing new you’ve stumbled upon here. <br /><br /><br />Here is where I’m torn, (nothing personal)<br /><br />If the above images are correct, what makes me think they never get sold as is? And why should I think you are some sort of Card Doctor Robin Hood vs. any other guy who doctors cards for ill gotten gains. What separates you from the others, and how are we who are not a part of this inner circle to assume or trust 100% in your opinion? <br /><br />I don’t think that it is unfair at all, but if you fell it is that’s your opinion I respect that.<br />

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>12?

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Wonka, I'm like you, I've always been leery about Net54ers discussing altered cards. Nothing says that criminals can't be members of Net54. If I wanted to be an ace counterfeiter, I'd lurk on this board and check out Kevin's "experiments." It would make me better at my craft.<br /><br />Peter C.

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Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>I think I can see something rising.......<br /><br /><br /><br />Daniel

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Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>I don't know that anyone participating in this thread is out to cut anyone down to size.<br /><br />The thread began as a statement on high-grade Goudeys and the direction shifted when Kevin and Jim stated that they would not buy from an auction house due to altered cards in holders being sold there. Jim made a statement that he would not buy cards from anyone who would not let Kevin give his seal of approval, and that began a very enlightening thread where, inbetween unnecessary (IMO) jabs at Jim and his unwillingness to resubmit his cards, we discussed the relative merits of regrading graded cards.<br /><br />It was - and is - my opinion that there are lots of knowledgeable people out there when it comes to the topic of alterations. However, in my opinion the grading companies already serve as the independent evaluator of whether a card is good or not. Each of us can make our own decisions as to which of those companies we trust and which we don't. However, the point that I and (I think) others were trying to make had nothing whatsoever to do with the degree to which Kevin actually possesses the competency to do what Jim is suggesting. The point was that the grading companies have established their credibility and their brands over the course of a decade of providing this service, evaluating cards, lending their expertise in many different situations, and holdering literally millions of cards of all shapes and sizes, years and varieties. The question, at least in my mind, was whether it is a realistic expectation that one person - regardless of who it is - should have an opinion that trumps that of those companies who have (mostly) built their credibility over such a long period of time.<br /><br />In Kevin's defense, he never claimed in this thread that he should - that claim was Jim's, and I don't think he intended to throw Kevin to the wolves with his statements. At the same time, however, Kevin has mentioned on this board as well as the other board that he IS planning to create a business where he actually DOES apply his seal of approval to already-graded cards. Given that, I do think it's entirely acceptable for people to question his credentials - just like he and others question the credentials of the graders. But I do feel that the questions are legitimate, particularly when there are multiple statements being made and examples being shown that call into question the credentials and competence of others.<br /><br />Edited to remove a statement that could be viewed as insulting, because that's not my intent.<br /><br />-Al

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Posted By: <b>PAS</b><p>Nothing personal, as I like Kevin and wish him success, but I continue to question the utility of such a service given the limited ability to opine on a card without being able to examine the edges.

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Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>I agree that there already exists arbiters of condition in the market, that they have the confidence (relatively <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>) of most hobbyists and are arguably at least as experienced and able as any other group could offer. On the whole I think the pounding/griping/groaning that fixates many on this board regarding the number on the flips they recieve is stupendously boring.<br /><br />I don't need Kevin's seal on anything just as I don't need any other grading company's where I feel my own eyes and knowledge are sufficient, and will happily take their help where I believe it assists me. It's unlikely I would feel the need to extend that request to Kevin, but where I felt his opinion valuable (and have once already - about 2 months ago) why not? I also don't believe the sky is falling regarding altered cards in the hobby, though it must be said that statements from SGC and Auction Houses have quite strongly suggested that the numbers are higher than 'occasional'.<br /><br />My only comment was to the language used to describe Kevin's abilities or lack thereof, his intentions, etc.<br />If you re-read the above thread you might agree that others have been less than generous, or might not. I am as yet to see anything he has said or done to warrant the snide tone in those posts.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br />Daniel

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Posted By: <b>John</b><p><br />While we are all making the world a better place and group hugging each other by holding back what you may feel are snide comments, which I and dare I say others feel are pretty reasonable questions and or concerns.<br /><br />Perhaps you can take your own advice the last few comments to Peter were pretty snide don’t you think. Talk about playing both sides of the fence…LOL<br /><br />Not defending Peter per say, but seems very hypocritical of you there E. Daniel.<br /><br />“Keep massaging Peter C, I think I can see something rising….”<br /><br />“You remind me of some kid running between groups of 'popular' peers, trying to massage everyone into liking and listening to you. Boy its gotten tiring reading 12 posts by you in a thread when you don't add any knowledge - just energetic mouthings. “<br />

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>John,<br /><br />Thanks for defending me, but it's not necessary. I doubt if the popular kids are spending their time posting on Net54.<br /><br />I still enjoy it, I'm having fun, that's why I do it. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Peter C.

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Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>Daniel:<br /><br />I understand. People get riled up. I'm not immune to that, either, particularly on this topic. I try not to, but it doesn't always work.<br /><br />-Al

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Posted By: <b>John</b><p>Oh I’m not defending you I don’t even like you! <img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/smileys/143.gif"><br /><br />Seriously I just thought that was pretty hypocritical of ED…<br /><br />As for Lichtman picking on you I cant help you there he’s on retainer and gets free cards each time I speak out of turn…and he likes the same restaurants I do to boot. <img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/smileys/143.gif"><br />

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Posted By: <b>cmoking</b><p>Kevin has spent a few hours with me explaining certain issues about card alterations that has been highly educational and eye opening to me. More importantly he was able to show me certain things that I would have never ever seen otherwise. For those of you that really want to get a better understanding of what the bad guys are doing in our hobby (so you can avoid it as much as you can), I think you'd be interested in spending some time with Kevin. I don't mean to spend Kevin's time for him, but I've found him to be very generous with his time and energy. Just send him an email, I'm sure he's willing to talk.<br /><br />FWIW, Jim, what the heck are you doing? With all your talk, why don't you spend an afternoon when you're out in southern California and go meet and talk to Kevin. Bring a handful of PSA 8 cards in your briefcase and see what he can show you. Don't be scared. The truth will set you free.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Speaking of, John, that was a nice T205 you posted on the other thread. It didn't escape my attention. Please box it up and send it my way. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>King,<br /><br />We are different in that regard--but I am having dinner with Kevin in a couple of weeks.<br /><br />Kevin, Please keep posting here and ignore Wonka and his constant stream of invective. Actually most of the time he doesn't read and post and the board does not have to deal with it.<br /><br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>cmoking</b><p>excellent. have a good time guys.

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Al,<br /><br />I don't disagree with what you say but....<br /><br />1)We both agree that more altered cards are getting into holders<br />2)It is extremely difficult to look at a picture on a screen and know whether the card has been altered<br />3)If these statements are true why take the risk nof buying an altered card at auction. Charlie says what is the difference if the card looks good but it makes a difference to, sounds as it makes a difference to King and I bet it makes a difference to others. <br />4)Why not get another expert to look at the card and give his opinion on whether it is legit or not. Whether its Reza or Mike or Dave Forman or Kevin is not the issue here.<br />5)If the person has doubts the card can be returned--at bleast with the dealers I buy from.<br />6)Auctioneers would have difficulty following this business model as they get a lot of their cards on consignment.<br />7)Because of this and because of the shady business practices of certain auctioneers I think we will move back toward the Steve Novella/Peter Lalos/Kris Keppler business model of doing business.<br />8)Whether we do or don't, I will be very reluctant to but a card at auction if I have any doubts about authenticity.<br /><br />Thats all I am saying.<br /><br />In response some people attack Kevin(bizarre)and some tell me to get my cards refraded(which is not going to happen).<br /><br />All seems pretty straightforward to me.<br /><br />Cheers,<br /><br />Jim

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Posted By: <b>John</b><p><img src="http://photos.imageevent.com/piojohn3/junkforumimages/Iper20wantper20you.jpg"><br /><br /><br /><br />“Kevin, Please keep posting here and ignore Wonka and his constant stream of invective. Actually most of the time he doesn't read and post and the board does not have to deal with it.”<br /><br /><br /><br />Actually I read all the time. Something you should start doing more often yourself for the record.<br /><br />****But since you seem to have the pulse of this board enough to speak for them, let’s see who the people here would rather see more posts from me or you?****<br /><br />In fact I wasn’t aware I made this place so awful so lets find if I do, and if the answer is yes Wonka ruins the board for everyone then I’ll leave you guys too it. <br /><br />Leon you have my word on this…no more Wonka.<br /><br />One small catch if you accept my challenge, if you come up short on this little witch hunt how about you take a break and box up your keyboard and or sit on your hands for awhile? <br /><br />You game Crandall, here’s your chance put up or shut up? <br /><br />I’ve had just about enough of your wining and crying, I ask pointed legitimate questions, I’m so sorry you cant deal with it, and constantly misconstrue everything I write as some all hell breaking loose personal attack. Heck you even respond to posts that aren't even directed to you! Short of the few card you’ve began to post you have been nothing but an antagonist on this board, even when I’m not posting your finding someone else to blame for all the worlds problems. <br /><br />Face it Jim I don’t pick on your family, spread rumors about you etc. I just disagree with 99% of your posts, deal with it already and stop hiding behind a wall of “victim” bricks.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I don't want this kind of "poll" on the board to see who is more popular or unpopular. You and Jim C are both valuable board members and I hope it stays that way.....Both of you are intelligent and provocative....and die hard collectors....lets just try to get along and collect cards together.......best regards

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Posted By: <b>John</b><p>Leon, thought you would feel that way. But for someone who cry’s about personal attacks etc. I think Jim takes way too many liberties with this “the board’ crap. He is not the majority voice or acting royalty on here, perhaps he should stop making comments like the above, especially if he wants everyone to get along etc.<br /><br />In the past few months, just having fun on here and asking questions and or voicing opinions on active topics, which last I checked was the purpose of this place last I checked. I’ve been threatened to be sued LOL, and continue to have this clown address posts that aren’t even directed at him. Sorry but it just gets plain old after awhile.<br /><br />John<br />

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Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>Jim:<br /><br />I need to be clear about something: I DO NOT agree that more altered cards are getting into holders. That has not been my experience. I believe that more altered cards are getting into SOME holders. And mitigating the risk comes down to the level of trust you have in your grader of choice.<br /><br />Everything else you said makes sense to me. However, if I were to purchase a card at auction, and discover it to be altered, I would take it back to SGC and they will review the card and give me an opinion. If they agree that the card is altered, they'll buy back the card. <br /><br />I'm sure PSA's customers are just as confident in PSA's willingness to stand behind their product.<br /><br />But I need to be clear about something else: I do not feel that removing a pencil mark from a card and getting it into a holder, taking glue off the back of a T206, or removing dirt or a wax stain from a card constitutes an "alteration." When I see someone removing glue from a card and then criticizing the grading company for giving the card a 2, I think they're missing part of the point.<br /><br />I also think there's a key difference between an auction house selling a card and a dealer doing the same. A dealer owns inventory and represents it a certain way in order to obtain the maximum dollars that they can put in their pocket. An auction house takes a commission for facilitating a transaction between a buyer and a seller. The auction house (at least in theory) does not actually own the merchandise. To ask the house to assume the financial risk associated with the grading company not doing its job, in my opinion, is unreasonable, since the auction house is responsible for paying the seller immediately after the close of the auction. It's the grading company's problem, IMO.<br /><br />Edited for clarity, because my fingers move faster than my dim-witted brain.<br />Edited once again, because I'm no less dim-witted now than I was the first time I edited.<br /><br />-Al

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>As usual I will not respond to this individuals unending stream of invective toward me and I guess now Kevin.<br /><br />Cheers everyone.<br /><br />Jim

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Al,<br /><br />I think the auction house will make their own decisions. If collectors show an increasing reluctance to buy expensive cards at auction, they may have to install some buyback provision over time. I know you are confident the number of altered cards getting through is diminishing but I hear too many things to believe that is true.<br /><br />Anyway, people will make their own decisions but for the time being I have made mine.<br /><br />Seems like the air has been taken out of this thread somaybe this it.<br /><br />Remember I still owe you dinner. Give me some dates.<br /><br />Jim

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Posted By: <b>Larry Haven</b><p>Jim C.,<br /><br />I've noticed that you and a couple of others with monstrous, valuable collections (Ted Z., etc.) are constantly being attacked by the same few people here. Weren't there two other collectors with huge collections who were run off this board some months ago by these same posters? Maybe if they run off enough hobby giants, they'll eventually have the biggest collections in this forum and can feel better about themselves?<br /><br />Larry Haven<br />

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Posted By: <b>PAS</b><p>As a collector, I agree with Jim that it is much better to buy a card from a dealer with whom one has a good relationship than out of an auction where, even apart from concerns about bid practices (which I don't happen to share), there is no right of return if you don't like the card, no opportunity to trade, etc. etc. While obviously auction houses continue to flourish, I hope that eventually, over time, more people will consign their collections to dealers like the ones Jim mentioned to sell for them.

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Posted By: <b>John</b><p>Larry,<br /><br />Don’t let anyone ever tell you you’re not a funny guy, that’s one of the funniest things I’ve ever read on this board. Jealousy…LOL<br />