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Posted By: <b>rand</b><p>see Jay, others agree with me, you write your posts without any reguard for how they "read" to other members. you are quick for an opinion on other members, but rarely offer insight on the actual thread or cards. You think your words are doing us a favor, when in fact make you look like a Jerk. if you talk to people in person like you write then people are being polite and not truly appreciating your company. You have made personal remarks about members that have no relevance to the thread. it just makes you feel better or gives you a rush. You may be a nice guy, who cares, act like an adult and write with manners. people can get their points across without insults or personal attacks. Add something to this baseball card forum, that actually is about cards, not what smart ass remark you have with other people. you add posts to "hear" yourself, and to ignite attacks. sounds to me you have some personal issues to work out, you are definetly insecure, or you wouldnt continually irritate people and not care.

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Thanks for the insight. Do you have a degree in psychology? This just continues to prove that you know nothing about me.<br /><br />I have no delusions that everyone likes what I have to say. I also know that contrary to what you believe, everyone does not dislike me and the way I post. <br /><br />It would be a pretty boring world if all acted and talked the same way. If you really dislike what I post, then treat it like a thread you don't like, skip it and ignore it.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Jay, anything said about Scott after his ban was said before the ban. <br /><br />And who is to say that your values and ethics are even remotely close to the average values and ethics of board members here? As an example, if Scott came out here and claimed that he was a member of NAMBLA -- not a crime in itself -- would that make him better in your eyes than a felon who was convicted of selling a pound of hash 20 years ago?

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>I know my values and ethics aren't close to the average person on here. I think the American Dream is a fraud and have a general disdain for the whole consumerism thing. That pretty much makes me unAmerican in Republican eyes.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

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Posted By: <b>Joe Pelaez</b><p>When anyone gets banned on this board, the wimps crawl out of their holes, and pile on.<br /><br />OmiGod ... did I say that?<br />Not to worry, I'll say 105 Hail Mary's, and beg for forgiveness........<br /><br />Father Joe

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Posted By: <b>Parpasi</b><p>Does Mastro alter cards today? Can Mastro influence PSA to downgrade an item it doesn't consign? These are the questions. I'm bummed that a card can be altered by an auction company and passed by a grading company. As an outsider I could care less if the owner approved or not. I feel worse for the Bender family than any individual on this board. Every time I read these inflammatory threads I laugh at the self proclaimed leadership represented here. Lately I have seen more inflammation than useful discussion. I'm sure I'm not the only lurker who thinks so.

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Posted By: <b>Joseph</b><p>Sure, Scott may hang himself time after time on this board and many of you, no doubt, believe him an asshat.<br />But the example he provided in this thread (unless HE doctored the before picture, which he no doubt did not) is irrefutable evidence of card doctoring/cleaning/restoring or whatever you want to call it. <br /><br />Why is it that almost every time a thread unravels against the Mastro machine, Net54 filibustering essentially kills the thread? I'm glad I'm not a conspiracy theorist...

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>There is no consensus on what constitutes "alteration"...some may call what Mastro did as simply cleaning the card and lots of people have no problem with that...Mastro has done much more nefarious things (see the GU Helmet issue). What are people expecting? For everyone to boycott Mastro? It isn't going to happen because if Mastro has that one item that you "need" you aren't going to care if Mastro cleaned up a card.

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Posted By: <b>Joseph</b><p>There is NOTHING WRONG with altering/cleaning/restoring works of art (or baseball cards).<br /><br />BUT it is ESSENTIAL that an auctioneer disclose ANY ALTERATIONS of which he is aware.

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Posted By: <b>Charlie Barokas</b><p>Joe,<br /><br />When and if you have sold car's in your life, would you disclose that at one time a bird **** on your car and that you removed it with some water and a rag?<br /><br />CB<br /><br />edited for spelling/grammar

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Posted By: <b>rand</b><p>i pose this question or comparison...if a person can restore and old car and sells it fully refurbished does he need to disclose how many dents were in it, and if a person sells a renovated home, does he have to show pictures of the old kitchen? meaning, if a card can be made better and it does not involve adding paper stock is this a bad thing? if the grading companies cannot detect a light alteration, in this case glue removal, is this really underhanded? or offering a better product without actually disturbing the cardboard?

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I am not going to bash someone that can't defend themselves. Scott got what he deserved much later than he should have. Nuff said. If anyone else wants to continue to attack anyone on this board personally, including me, then they will be banned too. As for cleaning the little bit of dirt off of the Red Cross card we have done polls on this board and the overwhelming majority of true card collectors (not plastic collectors) have no issue with it. If it wasn't there to begin with then there is no harm taking it off. If it leaves any kind of mark/indention behind then it should be disclosed, imo.......regards

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Guys, there will never be a consensus about Mastro's practices. Period. Like many auctioneers, in my mind, Mastro alters cards to some degree. Period. I'm not sure we as the buying public will ever be able to change that when you consider Mastro's position in the industry.

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>bad examples. When you sell a restored/refurbished car, it is noted as such. I don't think houses have become collectibles, so what's the point there? Ignoring that, when you buy an older house, it's pretty much a given that there has been some sort of work done on the house. This contrary to the way cards are viewed. Cards are viewed as being unaltered, no matter how old. <br /><br />The point Joe is trying to make is that most people wouldn't have a problem (myself included) with restoration, cleaning, etc if sellers were up front about it. There obviously something ethically and morally wrong with it if sellers aren't willing to disclose this basic information.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>There is more than just cleaning that happened to that card. Look closely at the stain. There is back damage there that disappeared after the cleaning. That's a little more than just removing a stain.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>I agree that any alteration or restoration of a card should be noted by the seller. And I also believe that restoration would become more acceptable if the auction houses would disclose what is being done on a consistent basis.

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Posted By: <b>Charlie Barokas</b><p>Dan,<br /><br />When and if you have sold car's in your life, would you disclose that at one time a bird **** on your car and that you removed it with some water and a rag?<br /><br />CB

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Posted By: <b>scott brockelman</b><p>2 people got banned, several more are arguing amongst themselves and the rest are either questioning or defending the parties involved.<br /><br />The alteration consisted of removing the unsightly brown glue(bugger) at the top of the card. The auction description reads that there is slight paper loss at the top. I really don't think this is an earth shattering event. They cleaned some crap off the card and made it look presentable. It's not like they trimmed it, painted it, rebuilt it, etc. For those that don't know or believe there are about 10 more levels they COULD have gone but did not, if in fact they were trying to repair of alter the card.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Charlie, it's a bad example the same someone else asking about whether you disclose you clean your house, or whatever it was. No one expects to buy a car that has never been cleaned. The vast majority of people in the hobby expect their cards to have never been cleaned or tampered with. <br /><br />I'll say it again, if it really wasn't a big deal, then there is no reason not to disclose that glue or whatever had been removed. It doesn't get disclosed because sellers know that it will adversely affect the selling price.<br /><br />Charlie, a question for you. You seem to think that cleaning a card is OK. If so, in your next auction, if you have any cards that you know have been cleaned, will you be disclosing this fact? According to you, it's no big deal, so if you aren't going to disclose it, why not?<br /><br />Jay<br><br>The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>I think it is assumed by most people that a car has been cleaned at one point or another. It is not assumed that a card was glued into a scrapbook. With cards it is: Where is the line drawn? The fact that a large percentage of collectors are not okay with card alterations or cleaning of any kind in my opinion dictates that sellers should always disclose alterations and cleaning. With automobiles I would guess the percentage of people who have a problem with cleaning the car is close to zero percent. So the comparison is invalid.

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Posted By: <b>Charlie Barokas</b><p>Jay,<br /><br />Nice dodge. Unlike you I will not dodge your question. Once again you are trying to lump "cleaning" in to all forms therein. My opinion, is the same as many others on the topic and unlike you I will not put words in anybody's mouth. But, I think it is not unethical to clean my car before I sell it without disclosing the cleaing. I also don't it is required to disclose that a piece of dirt was removed from a baseball card.<br /><br />Having said that, there are many ways to clean and alter a baseball card that I do think are unethical. Kevin Saucier has done a good job explaining those. In my opinion, soaking a card in a chemical is unacceptable and unethical.<br /><br />Soaking a card out of an album with distilled water was being done well before any of us were born. Which I believe is not unethcial. That is the main reason many of these cards are around in such high-grade. <br /><br />Once again, it is a case by case basis. The case you cited regarding removing dirt with water is not unethical and unacceptable, in my opinion. I have spoken with many people in the hobby regarding this and I think there is a viable consensus to support it.<br /><br />Lastly, to complete not dodging you as you did me, I would not disclose removing dirt with water, if I was selling a card, car, rug, pair of old underwear etc etc<br /><br />Dan,<br /><br />Fair point. However, I think it is naive to think that baseball cards survived this long without being cleaned, perserved etc at some point. I think a reasonable person would assume a 100 year card that looks like it came out of the pack yesterday, might have some sort of restoration done to it. <br /><br />CB<br /><br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>Charlie, you sell old underwear?<br /><br />Is that a new business unit for you?<br /><br />-Al

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Posted By: <b>Charlie Barokas</b><p>Al,<br /><br />It was great to finally meet you at the National. I forgot that you hammered me for removing pencil from that Herpolshiemer? We will have to cross that bridge next time. I don't know why I am taking on Jay, probably because his side-kick got banned. As Joe Said, the wimps are out in full force today. Smiley face.<br /><br />CB

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Posted By: <b>John J. Grillo</b><p>IMO the analogy below is weak. Washing a car is an "accepted" practice. Just because someone washes a car (before they sell to me) I wouldn't expect to pay more for it. Vintage cards that have been altered/cleaned are done so for one purpose in mind...to "significantly" increase the value, to trick or deceive a buyer that a card has been kept in meticulous condition all these years when it has not.<br /><br />A better analogy is buying a car that has been in an accident but has a new paint job/body work to cover up the damage. This is information I would want to know about before I buy.<br /><br />"Nice dodge. Unlike you I will not dodge your question. Once again you are trying to lump "cleaning" in to all forms therein. My opinion, is the same as many others on the topic and unlike you I will not put words in anybody's mouth. But, I think it is not unethical to clean my car before I sell it without disclosing the cleaing. I also don't it is required to disclose that a piece of dirt was removed from a baseball card."<br />

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Posted By: <b>Charlie Barokas</b><p>John,<br /><br />I respectfully disagree. I think your analysis of my opinion is weak. <br /><br />Edited to add:<br /><br />The analogy of a car accident not being disclosed doesn't fit (I know, so you must acquit) because structural work will be done to fix the car. Using water to wipe dirt off a card involves nothing structural. Trimming, now that would be considered structually changing the card.<br /><br />CB

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>How did I dodge the question? Dan used the same example I did as to why washing your car is a completely invalid comparison to cleaning a card, so obviously I'm not the only person that find your argument flawed. <br /><br />Yes, soaking cards out of albums has been done for a long time. I don't have a problem with that. By the same token, you cannot remove what was on that Red Cross t207 simply by soaking it in distilled water, so I do have a problem with that. So, I'll ask again, if you had this t207 to auction, would you disclose the fact that the card had a stain removed?<br /><br />Jay<br><br>The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

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Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>Hey Charlie:<br /><br />It was nice to meet you, too. It's always good to put a face with a name, and I enjoyed our conversation.<br /><br />I wouldn't use the word "hammered", though - I brought it to your attention, you rectified it immediately, life goes on. I've bid in your auctions since, and I'll bid in them again.<br /><br />-Al

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>The car accident analogy is bad too.<br /><br />As someone else pointed out, paintings are cleaned all the time, but when they are sold, the cleaning is noted in the auction. Cards should be no different.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

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Posted By: <b>Charlie Barokas</b><p>Jay,<br /><br />In the case of Scott's card, I would describe it just as Mastro did. The one caveat would be and I never saw the card in person but if there was any evidence that the card had a stain removed. I would describe that it appears that a stain was attempted to be removed but some remant was still visible. If dirt is on a card and after you wipe it off with distilled water and shows no evidence of the stain or distilled water, there is nothing to disclose.<br /><br />CB

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Mastronet--card alterations--no disclosure--why is anyone surprised. And whoever said that people will still buy from Mastromet if they need a card is wrong--I won't--I won't buy from a number of other auction houses either that I suspect of altering cards--and I know a lot of other collectors who feel that way.<br /><br />As far as Jay is concerned, I had my run-ins with him early on but he is one of a very few people on this board who actually adds value.<br /><br />And Leon, thanks once again for saying that "anyone who attacks anyone on the board personally" will be kicked off--please make sure that applies to those that attack others and not just those that attack you. I would expect that guys like Bretta or the BoxingCard guy or Asphaltguy who continually attack me on these board and the guys that personally attack Bruce Dorskind or Jay will be kicked off as you say should they continue to do this. We will be watching.<br /><br />Jim

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Posted By: <b>Charlie Barokas</b><p>Jay,<br /><br />You are an idealogue as opposed to a free thinker. You will never see things any other way. My post are not for your benefit. I think the rest of those who lurk are interested in hearing an alternative view.<br /><br />This is about the time that you remark about all the personal emails you are receiving telling you to forge ahead. Smiley face.<br /><br /><br /><br />Al,<br /><br />"hammered" was a term of endearment. I have lot of respect for you and I think you are doing an amazing job for SGC.<br /><br />CB

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Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>IMO any analogy that compares a work of fine art to a baseball card doesn't apply.<br /><br />A work of fine art is, in the examples in which they're usually used, one of a kind. A baseball card is one of many of the same card, out of many of the same set. Usually.<br /><br />Paintings undergo professional restoration that is disclosed and fully acceptable in the art world. It is done with the goal of preserving the only example of that painting that exists. <br /><br />Baseball cards undergo all sorts of restoration, legitimate and otherwise, that is usually done with intent to deceive. It is done with the goal of duping someone into thinking that the card is in better condition than it really is.<br /><br />Two different animals.<br /><br />In this case, I think that Charlie's analogy of washing bird crap off a car is the most accurate. All sorts of things can happen to a car during its life - minor things that can be repaired with no harm, no foul, serious things that should be disclosed out of fairness to the buyer, and all points inbetween. Just as a vintage car with all its original parts and paint in pristine condition is valuable, so is a vintage card in pristine condition. Just as a vintage car can be manipulated and buyers deceived into thinking they're getting something they're not, so can a vintage card.<br /><br />I agree with just about everything Charlie is saying in his analogy. However, you can take it a step further and say that it's possible to use a chemical to get that particularly stubborn clump of crap off your rag top, but I don't think that's acceptable to do with a card.<br /><br />-Al<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Charlie, you are right, I am an idealogue. But I am not rigid in my stance. If you can provide a persuasive argument, you can change my mind. But it better be a damn good argument.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

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Posted By: <b>Charlie Barokas</b><p>Jay,<br /><br />I am biased but I think my opinion is correct. I think you have a wealth of knowledge and I respect it. Just change the delivery alittle and you will be one of the more popular guys on the board. See there I said it, Jay "popular". Smiley Face Also, I will let you have the last word because I got to start putting the kids to bed. <br /><br />CB

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Posted By: <b>Todd Schultz</b><p>but I'm with Jay on this one. Comparing the wiping of bird crap off a car windshield before selling it to cleaning a collectible baseball card is one of the lamest things I've ever heard. In fact the bird crap on the windshield smells better than your analogy.

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Posted By: <b>Charlie Barokas</b><p>Todd,<br /><br />I appreciate your disagreement but did you have any reason to back it up. Or was it just the rewording with the smelling of **** comment. For the record you are disagreeing with at least Al and Leon as well.<br /><br />Edited to add to the list: Mastro, all of the grading services <br /><br />CB

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Just because Leon and Al agree with you doesn't mean you are right. It's still a bad analogy. As has been pointed out repeatedly, no one is under the illusion that a car has never been cleaned. Exactly the opposite is true in card collecting world. People in this hobby still have the belief that what they are buying is unaltered. This includes cleaning up cards.<br /><br />I can repeat this again if necessary if you still don't under the reasoning of those of us that find your analogy flawed.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

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Posted By: <b>Todd Schultz</b><p>For the record, Al and I have been known to disagree from time to time, and still manage to swill beer together at the National. And for the record, Leon and I have not always agreed either, yet I doubt there's much wrong with that.<br /><br />And so again for the record, it seems of little consequence that you and I should disagree. Since you like to refer to the record, I will invite anyone here to look at your stance on "handling" cards that you acquire, resubmit and then sell, and draw their own conclusions, not mine. I stand by my comment however, that equating the wiping of a windshield before selling a car to cleaning a collectible card before sale is lame at best.

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Posted By: <b>Charlie Barokas</b><p>Jay,<br /><br />The post was directed at me and I want to make it clear it is not my unilateral opinion. Just like their are others who agree with you. I said earlier and I will say it again, I am not trying to persuade you of anything, that would be impossible. I am simply representing the other side of the argument so that people lurking can make up their own minds. Clearly there will be people that have a contrary opinion inspite of the facts or truth, read: OJ Jury.<br /><br />I promise you we won't go around in circles anymore we shall agree to disgree.<br /><br />CB

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Posted By: <b>Charlie Barokas</b><p>Todd,<br /><br />Once agian, no reasoning, just repition. Sounds like playground reasoning to me. As far as the "handling" cards remark you made, you obviously felt behind in the arugment and were forced to try and throw mud in attempt to deflect attetion away from your vacous analysis.<br /> <br />One week after the "handling" remark a major grading service came on this board and described "handling" as tier 1. Tier 1 in their opinion, being acceptable forms of restoration. I have never "handled" a card beyond tier 1, nor will I. I certainly don't have to lie about it. <br /><br />CB<br />

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Who came up this Tier 1, etc none sense? It seems a lot people missed the memo on this one because there are a lot of people, including me, who have no clue what it means and what all the tiers are and what they involve.<br /><br />Jay<br /><br />The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

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Posted By: <b>Charlie Barokas</b><p>Jay,<br /><br />As you have tersely stated many times, "do a search on it".<br /><br />CB

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>You must have missed my post that stated I no longer do that because I finally realized that the search function here is pathetic and inadequate.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

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Posted By: <b>Charlie Barokas</b><p>Jay,<br /><br />Actually, don't bother seaching for it, it won't fit your thesis therefore you will just disregard it.<br /><br />CB

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Charlie, I've been very civil towards you, why the change in your tune? You were the one calling for civility earlier.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Just typed "tier 1" into the search engine. What I got were a bunch of posts about tier 1 HOFers, your mention of tier 1 and someone else posting and wondering where tier 1 alterations came from.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

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Posted By: <b>Charlie Barokas</b><p>Jay,<br /><br />How is that not being civil? Is it not true that you give much weight to things that make your case and try to dismiss things that don't make your case?<br /><br />Let me be clear, I don't like the way you have acted on the board in the past but we got passed that. I want to learn from you but just as you are inspired to give your unbridled opinion I must represent my side. And part of representing my side is pointing out part of your style of discrediting those that disagree with your brutally honest opinion.<br /><br />Again, I mean no disrespect. I am just engaging in a spirted debate of both sides of this issue.<br /><br />CB

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Posted By: <b>Todd Schultz</b><p>Let's go. You want reasoning. A person buying a car, regular or even collectible, expects it to have routine maintenance and cleaning. Such does not need to be disclosed because it is open and obvious, and impacts nothing upon value. That is not open to debate, there is no majority or minority view. Now let's look at a card. There are a great many who want full disclosure of what has been done to it, at least within the seller's knowledge. No we don't want to hear about nose drippings that have been flicked off, but we do want to know if there has been any "work" on the card, period. Mastro be damned, and any other names you care to drop be damned as well. Did you not comprehend the gist of this thread? The very company upon whose name you hang your hat is having their practices called into question. The matter is clearly open to debate, yet you try to trivialize it with your birdcrap analogy. <br /><br />As for you, why don't you disclose what has been done, knowing that there are many who want to know? You can't in good faith say that it is such a common practice that it would be of no interest to people--that's a copout and only leads people to view your auctions with suspicion. My reference to the record is because you seem intent on calling things to people's attention--well, I am doing the same as to your views on these subjects. You smugly tell Jay to use the search function. I merely invite others to do the same when it comes to your activities.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>It took me 3 minutes to find this recently posted SGC thread. You think it's a pathetic search function but maybe it's the person doing it not knowing how....I am willing to teach you how to do a search if you need to be taught...It's really very easy...best regards

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Posted By: <b>Charlie Barokas</b><p>Jay,<br /><br />The tiered system was posted by SGC. It gave unique clarity into the different levels of alteration from the most innoccuous to the most detestable and everything in between.<br /><br />And believe me I get it, your argument is that its all alteration is all bad and or unacceptable. This is where we respectfully disgree. I am representing the side that claims there are acceptable and unacceptable forms of restoration.<br /><br />Let the circling around begin.<br /><br />CB

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Posted By: <b>Charlie Barokas</b><p>Todd,<br /><br />Are you asserting that every person that owns a car that is selling said car maintains the car at the same level? And that no monotary value can be assigned to a poorly maintained car vs. an emaculately kept one? Your argument is specious.<br /><br />"Work" please define? The converstaion I was having with Jay was with regard to dirt removal whether is is flicked off or cleaned off with distilled water.<br /><br />I never hung my hat with Mastro. I simply stated that I was not the only person defending the position. With Mastro its a case by case basis, Doug Allen stated at the N54 dinner that he and they make mistake and they work to rectify them as best as they can. If they are found guilty of a crime, I will not defend them. But up until this point we have heard accusations. Some of the accusations are troublesome but let the process play out before making a final judgement.<br /><br />I encourage people to search my name on this board, google or anywhere else. I have nothing to hide and I think if you ask around you might find the my repuation is an honest one.<br /><br />CB

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Posted By: <b>Todd Schultz</b><p>Just keep posting on this subject, and your position and people's willingness to deal with you will become more and more defined. I don't need to ask around about your reputation--believe it or not I can formulate my own opinions and have been in this hobby long enough--some 40 years. My argument is not specious, although I'm pleased you at least spelled the word correctly. You can continue to equate wiping birdsh!!t off a car with cleaning a collectible card--that's your right. I'll let others decide if one of us is being specious.<br /><br />So answer the question--why don't you disclose whatever you have done to a card in your auction descriptions? Because it's trivial? Nobody would want to know? Or maybe, just maybe, you think it might cost you potential bidders?

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Leon, How are you supposed to find that post if you are told to do a search for "tier 1 alterations", yet that post never uses the word tier?<br /><br />Jay<br><br>The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

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Posted By: <b>Charlie Barokas</b><p>Todd,<br /><br />My name is not Pal. Second, you are condescending me man. Third, thank you for helping me define my stance, which I might add is a good one. There will be those that will never buy or sell a card from or with me and that is ok. But, it won't be because I am being dishonest.<br /><br />SGC says removing dirt from cards is an acceptable form of resotoration so why would I take your personal luddite opinion over theirs? Tier 1 alterations are not disclosed for the same reason the bird **** is not disclosed. Which brings us back to the start.<br /><br />You spend alot of time attacking and very little time responding to posts. I guess I will let that speak for itself.<br /><br />Once again, I respect your opinion but your are making this personal. Can we just debate hobby issues without insulting hobby participants for having differing views.<br /><br />CB

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Charlie, please be sure to read everything I write. If you had, you would have read that I don't have a problem with restoration, cleaning or anything else that you want to do to a card as long as you disclose what you did. People do these things and and DON'T disclose them because they know that full disclosure will hurt the final price.<br /><br />If there are practices that you feel are OK and acceptable in general as is claimed by you and Leon, then why won't you disclose them in your auctions? It shouldn't impact the price if they truly are acceptable.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Charlie, your argument that SGC says it's OK, so you don't need to disclose it is lame at best, especially when you keep falling back in your car analogy. If I tell someone I cleaned bird crap off my car, no one cares and it won't affect the final sale price of the car. You tell someone that you cleaned up a card, even if it was only with distilled water, and it WILL affect the final price. This is why your car analogy fails.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

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Posted By: <b>Charlie Barokas</b><p>Jay,<br /><br />For the same reason, I would not disclose the bird **** removed from the vintage car that I am selling. If removed correctly without changing the structure of the car it is as if the bird never **** on the car.<br /><br />CB

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>This is real easy.....If I remove a piece of dirt from a card and it can't be seen then I don't feel the need to disclose it. I already stated, a few posts up, that if anything can be detected it should be noted. My stance parallels SGC's stance word for word.....I had the same opinion before Dave wrote what he did.....You can disagree and that is fine....I don't worry about things I can't see....

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>This would be a good poll. That way people could chime in without having to publicly expose what side they support. I'd be interested to know what the silent majority thinks of your analogy.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

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Posted By: <b>Charlie Barokas</b><p>Jay,<br /><br />You cannot be serious, are you really going on the record stating that everybody maintains their car in the same fashion? Is it not pertinent to the resale value as to whether someone cleaned the car meticulous or the converse? You are the one with the flawed argument. Those that maintain their belonging the best will receive the most money at resale. <br /><br /><br />CB

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Posted By: <b>Zach S.</b><p>You're talking cardboard and painted metal... it's not the same. Let's say that the car you're selling needs a new paint job and you get it done. People advertise older cars as having a new paint job because it may help get a few more dollars but if you added color to a card you wouldn't get the same result. Cars and vintage baseball cards are not the same and the analogy is ridiculous... much like this thread has become.<br /><br />Zach S.

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Posted By: <b>Charlie Barokas</b><p>Zach,<br /><br />Ridiculous or not, repainting is comseruate with re-coloring, which is clearly unacceptable. I respect your opinion but saying my argument makes no sense with out a valid reason, makes no sense?<br /><br />CB

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Zach, thanks for saying what I was about to say. And you prolly said it in fewer words.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

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Posted By: <b>Zach S.</b><p>Alright Charlie,<br /><br />If a bird shat on my car I'd wipe it off. That doesn't mean that I want to buy a vintage baseball card that a bird shat on. Does that make it a little bit clearer?<br /><br />E.T.A - I don't want to buy any used underwear either.<br /><br />Zach S.

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Posted By: <b>Charlie Barokas</b><p>Jay,<br /><br />Since when is "prolly" a word? Smiley Face.<br /><br />CB

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Posted By: <b>Todd Schultz</b><p>Dear Mr. Barokas,<br /><br />Please allow a couple of questions from a luddite, a term I'm sure you employed in its most complimentary form, as you wouldn't want to get personal. If a buyer specifically asks you in one of your auctions whether you have done anything to the card and if so what; i.e., if it is clear from the question that the potential buyer wants to know this information, do you believe you have an obligation to answer? You wouldn't want to be dishonest, right? You wouldn't consider his question immaterial and not deserving of full and truthful response, just because a grading company gives it a "tier 1" label, would you? You would tell him, hypotheticaly, that since you've owned the card, you;ve done x,y, or z to the card, wouldn't you?

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Posted By: <b>Charlie Barokas</b><p>Zach,<br /><br />Now we are getting somewhere, lets take your favorite card and your are in route to a show, suddenly a bird swoops down and ****s on it. I believe you have the right based upon the ethics of this hobby to wipe of the bird **** with distilled water and cloth. And if you do it correctly and the bird **** is gone, it never happened.<br /><br />CB

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Posted By: <b>Zach S.</b><p>Charlie,<br /><br />First of all I wouldn't know where to begin getting bird poop off of a card. I'd have to start a thread here and ask the best way to get it off. I would want it off for my own benifit but if I ever decided to sell this poo card I would make it known to any potential buyer that something had been done to it. I'm sure the smell would probably tip them off though.<br /><br />Zach S.

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Posted By: <b>Charlie Barokas</b><p>Todd,<br /><br />Luddite is a term of endearment for your longevity in the hobby. The answer to the question is an emphatic Yes. When asked, I will always disclose everything I know about the history of a card. <br /><br />CB

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>The reason your analogy and argument have become ridiculous is that you gone from the simple removal of bird crap from your car to the overall maintenance and care of the car to defend your analogy. You have moved beyond the simple removal of bird crap from the car in your analogy. This implies that you also need to bleach your cards to make then whiter, the same way you would want to make your white walls whiter (no need to disclose that is there?), your want to touch up any missing color on a card the same way you want to touch up any nicks in your paint job (no need to disclose that either, is there?). How far do you want to carry the maintenance analogy, or would you prefer to just stick to cleaning bird crap off the car?<br /><br />Jay<br><br>The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

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Posted By: <b>Charlie Barokas</b><p>Zach,<br /><br />Fair enough. But I think you are under no obligation to tell anyone that it had been pooed on in the past.<br /><br />CB

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Posted By: <b>shelly jaffe</b><p>I have read almost every excuse to allow a card to be sold as authentic. I can't belive that the same people who accused me of being a thief are the same people saying that cheating the public is ok. I have to tell you that I paid every person that I sold an item to that was not authentic. I belive that you should do the same. If you changed or altered a card and did not tell the public, then your as bad if not worse that I am. Paul you can say what ever you want about me.you took great pride in saying you turned in the guys from ca. It is about time you do the same for those that did exact <br />same thing. If this is how business is done in this hobbie I will stand by my statement that it will not be long before what you have in your hand is as good as dirt. I can also tell you that I have done more to protect this hobby in last six years than all of you put together. I stand by that statement and if you want to argue ask Leon.

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Posted By: <b>Charlie Barokas</b><p>Jay,<br /><br />First of all, please do not put words in my mouth, bleaching baseball cards is definately unacceptable all the time. An analogy is just that, not every nuancial simiarlity has to match up. This is not my analogy, I heard it from someone I have a lot of repect for in the hobby and it mades sense to me. Obvioulsy if you carry out any analogy you will find inconsistences. Again, it is a tiered system, bleach...bad...distilled water acceptable.<br /><br />CB

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>"Prolly" is a lazy way of spelling "probably" back in the 80s when when bandwidth was at a serious premium and you typed all your USENET messages in some form of shorthand. I try not to use it anymore, but it slips by once in awhile.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

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Posted By: <b>Charlie Barokas</b><p>Shelly,<br /><br />Wow! You are a convicted fellon. Explain to me how anybody who erases pencil or removes dirt from a baseball card is worse than you?<br /><br />CB

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Posted By: <b>Charlie Barokas</b><p>Jay,<br /><br />You got a beautiful baby on the way. You might want to tighten up "prolly" for his/her benefit.<br /><br />Congrats again, I have three and they supercede all this ****.<br /><br />CB

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Posted By: <b>Zach S.</b><p>Well, it's time for me to get to bed. I hate knowing that tomorrow I'll have to read all the posts that are made while I'm away... but, I'll HAVE to do it. <br /><br />Good night... and I hope no birds poop on your cards<br /><br />Zach S.

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Posted By: <b>Todd Schultz</b><p>Dear Mr. Barokas,<br /><br />Thank you for your prompt response. I may take you up on your offer and question your cards at auction--perhaps others will as well. And unlike what you have just accused Jay of doing, I will try not to put your words in your mouth, although frankly, I believe that sometimes your words as posted in threads have disappeared, into whose mouth, I don't know <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Good evening.

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Charlie, not putting words in your mouth, just trying thinking out loud trying to figure out how overall maintenance of car is comparable to cleaning bird crap off your card. On the surface, the car/bird crap analogy seems to make sense, but when you think it through, it doesn't hold up. The main reason being that people prefer that you wash and clean your car. People prefer that their baseball cards NOT be washed, cleaned or altered. <br /><br />Jay<br><br>The richest person is not the one who has the most, but the one who needs the least.

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Posted By: <b>Joe Pelaez</b><p>"As the Cardboard Stomach Turns"<br /><br />Brought to you by the makers of Mr Clean.......