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Posted By: <b>Tom Boblitt</b><p>You graced the bluegrassed confines for a few years too!<br /><br />Lots of cockfightin' in Eastern Kentucky I'd say.....close to Scott. I'm sure it's a venerable sport up there too in the barns and hollers like it probably is in Virginia. Guess they don't worry about building any cockfight domes or anything in the mainstream society. No corporate suites either probably. Haven't seen any competitors on any Nike ads yet either.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Joe, sorry I couldn't respond sooner but I was just checking the law books and I noticed that addiction was not an affirmative defense to the crime of drug possession. Perhaps if someone was holding a gun to one's head and forcing them to purchase drugs that might be a defense. However, I don't think anyone had a gun to Scott's head when he was putting two roosters into a ring and drooling in happiness as they ripped each other to bits. <br /><br />Time for a nap, ok?<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>chris bland</b><p>I never post on off topic threads, but what the hell. Here is my contribution - its better with the sound on...<br /><br /><a href="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUj5BKMGIuk" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FUj5BKMGIuk</a>

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>I always get a chuckle out of the people that think they can belittle me, Scott and the others that contribute to the other board by saying that there is no activity there. These same people are new to this board and have no clue what the true history of this board is. If you think it's been this active since day one, then you truly are clueless.<br /><br />I joined the FC/net54 board at about it's one year point. I checked the board once, maybe twice a day because there just wasn't that much traffic there to warrant looking at it more often. The new board may only have 105 registered members, but about twice that many lurk. You can read the board without having to register.<br /><br />If you look at the activity on this board, most it involves OT talk and what needs to be done about Sean or some other non-card related issue. Any topics of real substances about vintage cards and the hobby end up getting shunted off the front page by things like this. At least over there, you don't have to filter your way through a bunch of garbage threads to find the stuff that will interest you.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: <b>P Spaeth</b><p>Who were the best pre-war cockfighters?

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Posted By: <b>Mark</b><p>Jeff, would you represent/defend someone who ran a cockfighting business?

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Posted By: <b>Bottom of the Ninth</b><p>Who were the best pre-war cockfighters?<br /><br />Isn't that the subject to the sequel to The Marinolli Treasure?

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Posted By: <b>JK</b><p>Ty Cock was the greatest who ever lived - sorry couldnt resist.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Josh, you've been waiting all thread to get that out, haven't you? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Jay- while there is no denying that this board has its share of O/T posts, how can you say most threads of substance, that is card discussion, get pushed to the bottom and are ignored? You know that isn't true, so why even say it?

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Posted By: <b>Ed</b><p>Babe Ruthter

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Posted By: <b>P Spaeth</b><p>I was about to post as a joke are the cocks on steroids, but apparently (at least according to this undoubtedly PC site) some of them ARE!!<br /><br /><a href="http://www.hsus.org/hsus_field/animal_fighting_the_final_round/cockfighting_fact_sheet/" target="_new" rel="nofollow"><a href="http://www.hsus.org/hsus_field/animal_fighting_the_final_round/cockfighting_fact_sheet/</a" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.hsus.org/hsus_field/animal_fighting_the_final_round/cockfighting_fact_sheet/</a</a>><br /><br />EDITED TO ADD EXCERPT<br /><br />Aren't these birds natural fighters?<br /><br />While it is true that birds will fight over food, territory, or mates, such fights are generally only to establish dominance within a group (the pecking order) and seldom result in serious injury. This natural behavior is quite different from what happens in staged cockfights, where pairs of birds, bred for maximum aggressiveness (and sometimes given steroids or other drugs to make them more successful fighters) are forced to fight until a winner is declared.<br />

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>This board has become more of a social club than an actual place to discuss vintage cards. A while back Leon asked that OT posts stop for awhile. Thy did, but it didn't take long for things to digress right back to it's old state. Most attempts at any serious discussion end up getting shouted down by various people with agendas. God forbid anyone say anything bad about Mastro on here. If you do, get ready to ganged up on big time. <br /><br />Look at Sean's return. He asks a few questions and instead of answering his questions people feel the need to berate and belittle a 12 year old kid for asking questions that any normal 12 year old would. I was 16 when I found the first Beckett annual. The thing that caught my attention was the price of 1972 Topps Carew. It was the value of the cards that got me to return to my childhood hobby, not an altruistic desire to collect for the sake of collecting. I'm thankful for people like Mark Macrae, Bill Bossert, Dick Dobbins and others that took the time to teach me about cards even though I may have seemed annoying to them. Once he gets past the $$$ stage, he'll start asking other questions that won't involved value. <br /><br />Jay<br><br>I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Jay, I apologize for the low blow regarding your message board...it was directed at Scott and not you, but I still shouldn't have said it especially considering I post to the memorabilia board which probably gets less traffic than your board. I doubt you will get many more converts over to your board though with revelations that Scott is cruel to animals and the continued harassing of Leon over advertising.

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Well, I told you to be patient...we have now covered all the points that you mentioned earlier. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Peter

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Uh oh, Peter. You mean the birds don't enjoy killing each other while hopped up on 'roids? Scott? Scott? Scott!

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Jay, you should be the last one to talk about not answering Sean's questions...when I first got to this site if someone asked a question you were invariably the first to always jump in to tell that someone to "Learn how to use the search function".

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Posted By: <b>P Spaeth</b><p>I didn't think the steroid connection would be THIS easy. As I said I was about to post it as a joke, then figured I would run a google search just in case.... and lo and behold.... Unbelievable, isn't it?<br /><br />By the way, it is easy to defend a particular practice by pointing out something else that is logically equivalent but that the critic doesn't mind. And then accusing the critic of hypocrisy. But that use of the Socratic method is really a logician's trick and not a defense of the practice on the merits, in my opinion. Therefore, the "you condone hunting, therefore you are a hypocrite for attacking cockfighting" line of reasoning really doesn't speak to the merits of why cockfighting should be OK.

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Posted By: <b>P Spaeth</b><p>Oops double post sorry.

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Posted By: <b>anthony</b><p>jay, i've seen that "advertisement" on the front door of a brothel in pahrump, nevada.<br /><br /><br />***no, i've never been to a brothel***

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Posted By: <b>Joe Pelaez</b><p>A different time, and possibly a different background.<br />This is not from books, not from stats, it's strictly from life's experience.<br />I'm talking about the the late 1930's, early forties, up to 1945.<br />My pre teens, early teens during the second world war years, living in Spanish Harlem, Manhattan NYC.<br />I was surrounded by a lot of fine good people, but within the envirement, there was also the element of street gangs, gang wars, zip guns and drugs.<br />If you did not grow up in a large inner city, you will not know WTF I'm talking about.<br />Competing in those days was a training field that gave me all the background that I'd need in later life.<br />Whether it was in stickball, I was so bad, with two left feet, that they would prefer to trade me for a stickball bat, and a spauldeen, when it came up to choosing a team.<br />Some of those guys were great natural athletes, whereas I really had to work at it.<br />The sad part is that some of them got killed or wounded in gang wars, while I was the only one from that group to later on go for a football scholarship.<br />The hard part was the peer pressure, and the hardest part of the peer pressure, was going against it.<br />Gangs of every kind were all over the place.<br />A group of my peers joined a gang 8 blocks away, not knowing that in a short time, that gang would declared war on the gang that lived on their block.<br />They had to sneak home over roof tops, or whatever.<br />One of them, was killed by a sniper as he sneaked into his apartment house during the night.<br />He was a former schoolmate of mine in grammer school.<br /><br />Although I didn't do gangs or drugs, I definitely needed to change the scenario.<br />That means no gangs ... no drugs ... a different group of friends and ideas.<br /><br />In other words, how to make friends, and influence people.<br />To say that my peers looked down upon me, and were not happy with me ... Is an understatement.<br /><br />The change turned out to be easier than expected, new classmates from Junior High school, in the middle of an oasis just 3 blocks from where I lived.<br />NYC is an amazing place.<br /><br />Now this, depending in what circles Mr Jeffery Lichtman travels ... he might find this interesting.<br /><br />I eventually got to play some football for a local team called the Eagles, the N.Y. Eagles.<br />That team was made up of NYC.<br />I mean every possible kind of diversity.<br />The good the bad, and everything else of every gang, religion, color or crede. ... We were one Team..........<br />To give you just one small example.<br />In one game, we had this sub come in for one play.<br />He wasn't very tall, and he came in to replace the quarterback.<br />He threw me the prettiest touchdown pass that you would ever want to see.<br />A few years later, he had to serve some time because he shot a very disagreeable person.<br /><br />To show you the other side of the coin, and this is the part that Jeffery may, or may not recognize.<br /><br />We had halfback that was fast and shifty, and light on his feet.<br />His name was Eddie Torres, better known now as Judge Edwin Torres.<br /><br />Now for those of you that may not be familiar with Judge Torres, asides from being a noted Judge, he wrote a few books.<br />One of them was "Q & A", that was made into a movie with Nick Nolte, and I believe Armand Assante.<br /><br />He also wrote "After Hours" AKA Carlito's Way with Pacino.<br /><br />Let me take a brake.<br /><br />OK Mr J Krasner, being that you said I was all wrong, let's hear a little about your background, and experience?<br /><br />Joe Pelaez....................<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Josh</b><p>And now, Deep Thoughts, by Jack Handy.....

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Joe, I know Judge Torres. He's a great guy; one of my favorite stories as a lawyer was an exchange I had with him in an off-the record discussion about a case I was about to enter. That being said, I'm pretty sure he doesn't agree with you on the issue of addicts being given free passes on narcotics cases.

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Joe,<br /><br />That was a fascinating story...so are you telling us that sports helped you out of the slums? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Addiction is a tough problem...once a person thinks of himself as an addict...it is all over because he has all the excuses in the world after that.<br /><br />Peter

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Posted By: <b>Al C.risafulli</b><p>There is, most definitely, a full moon in message board land.<br /><br />-Al

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>Al,<br /><br />Normally, we don't have this type of thread until the end of the month...the full moon came out early this month. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Peter C.

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Posted By: <b>Joe Pelaez</b><p>"addicts being given free passes on narcotics cases."<br /><br />*<br />*<br /><br />Jeff, I didn't say that, I didn't say that at all.<br /><br />Let's go back to the play book, and then we'll get back to Eddie Torres.<br /><br />Either I misinterpret what you said, or you me.<br /><br />My response was directed at a comparison that you used with Scott.<br /><br />If I misread you, I apologize, but if I didn't, I want to make sure that you get my point straight.<br /><br />The above statement, was definitely not in my thinking.<br />Anyone that knows me, would know that.<br />Let me check the thread.<br /><br />OK, I found exhibit A.<br />Now you know that I'm not a fanatico of cock fighting, and you ussed this as a comparison to it.<br /><br />Jeff, you stated:<br />"And at least with Leon's crime people who buy drugs usually have a brain and the willpower to say no."<br />Jeff, what you say about willpower , is somewhat true, but once the junkie is hooked, you can forget about the willpower to say NO.<br />That's when serious rehab hopefully comes into play.<br /><br />Jeff, the way you said it, and I know you didn't mean it that way, it almost sounded like, pushing junk is a victimless crime.<br /><br />During the time that Eddie and I were exposed to that problem, people from outside of El Barrio, didn't really care about it.<br />It wasn't happenning to them, but now, every Grosse Pointe affluent area of this contry, is concerned about the problem.<br /><br />No ... PUSHING is not a victimless crime, and they deserve whatever they get.<br /><br />I want to ask a couple of questions about Eddie, but I have to take a break.<br /><br />Later..............<br /><br />Joe<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>John S</b><p><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1184806750.JPG">

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>You are exactly correct. Edited to say everyone should learn from their mistakes and try to help others less fortunate, when they can...regards

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Posted By: <b>Brent Butcher</b><p>Leon, you are still addicted but to little spaure pieces of cardbourd now. I say that's a pretty damn good trade off!

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Posted By: <b>Scott Elkins</b><p>with some common sense who are not willing to attack me b/c of what I do. Hell, I may be a cockfighter, but at least I am not an attorney!<img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Anyway, while wading through all this, I noticed a bloody picture Jeff was happy to point out. I am glad he did, as this proves soundly what I am saying! Thanks Jeff! If you will look at the roosters' legs carefully in that picture, you will notice that the rooster do NOT have the steel spurs on their legs used in cockfighting. These are two roosters who had fought naturally. Let me agree with everyone that this IS a bloody sight! So, a lot of you would rather see the chickens left to do this to one another naturally and be this bloody than to have a much more humane fight with steel spurs on - right? To be honest, I have NEVER seen two roosters with as much blood on them in an organized cockfight than the picture Jeff displayed of the two fighting naturally. <br /><br />As to the steroid issue. Yes, some people give their chickens steroids. Jeff claims they do not want to fight until they are given steroids and made to fight. This is more BS from someone, along with Dan B., who are making less sense with each statement they make. So, Barry Bonds would not want to play Baseball unless steroids made him want to? So, Football players, Boxers, Wreslters, Ultimate Fighters, etc. would not want to beat each other more bloody than any rooster from a fight b/c steroids make them want to do this? Huh, Jeff? If you are so against steroids, you should probably start in the sports they are most prevalent - Baseball and Wrestling - NOT cockfighting. Of course, Jeff will not listen. He will simply throw something ludicrous in my face and dodge the question, like a lot of attorneys would (again, I know this as I have several friends who are attorneys - beat them in a game of pool and they have 5000+ excuses why they really won).<br /><br />I have actually, except for Barry's statement (I would expect him to defend anyone saying anything negative against Leon however), seen that more and more people in this thread seem to have seen through Jeff and Dan B.'s BS. That is good, as all of you on Net 54 are not brainwashed by Leon and his "clique" yet. It is also funny people like to attack me for attacking Leon - and I didn't attack Leon, but was proving a point after being attacked by this Net 54 "clique".<br /><br />Jay is also correct - a lot of the names of individuals here I have not seen in the past on the old boards. You people have NO idea of the origins of Net 54 and how Leon took it over with $$$ in his eyes! This use to be the best board in the world for talking vintage cards. Now, it is simply nothing more than a clique of people following Leon who are willing to attack anyone who sees the Hobby, Mastro, Leon, or even the world differently than they do. You people need to learn that America is a melting pot, whether you like it or not. There are people with different skin colors, backgrounds, heritages, etc. than you - YOU ARE NOT ALWAYS RIGHT, AND THEY ARE NOT ALWAYS WRONG B/C YOU DON'T AGREE WITH HOW THEY LOOK, WHAT THEY DO, THEIR BACKGROUNDS, ETC.!

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Posted By: <b>Josh</b><p>How's we get from cockfighting to attorney bashing?! No need to get mean now!! <br /><br />And I agree with Leon, as long as we can learn from our mistakes, and help others, it's a positive. <br /><br><br>Go Go White Sox<br />2005 World Series Champions!

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Posted By: <b>judson hamlin</b><p>That was not a transformer explosion near grand Central - that was Jeff's head exploding <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Hi Jeff - looks like Tacopina's star witness was a fruitcake (and probable poster here)

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Scott, you used a whole lot of words just to say "I abuse animals".<br /><br />I'll also note that you couldn't point out anywhere where I accuse you of attacking Leon. You can use your next post to apologize and retract the "Pot, Kettle, Black" statement you made against me.<br /><br />Thanks. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Bob Pomilla</b><p>" humane fight with steel spurs on " Now that has to be the most pathetic statement yet. If you can't see the ridiculousness of that comment, there's no hope.<br /><br />Oh, and Scott, since you've been lauded for your alleged "honesty" and "legal" behavior by your apologists in this forum (and by yourself, come to think of it), tell me: have you ever bet on a cockfight in the state of Virginia?

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Scott, it's not fancy lawyerimg to criticize someone who abuses animals and then is too dumb to hide in the shadows about it. It's called common sense. Do you realize you wrote that it is appropriate for roosters to wear steel spurs to kill each other with? <br /><br />You're a grotesque oddity; you should be playing the banjo in <i>Deliverance</i> not moving amongst normal people.<br /><br />Now is Roy Jones, Jr. going to come to my home and kick my ass?

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Dan, yes, I used to be one of the first people to tell new comers to learn to use the search function. You never saw me knowingly treat a 12 year old the way some of the people around here treat Sean knowing full well he is only 12. I'm willing to cut him slack because he is learning and probably doesn't have all the social skills that he eventually have when he gets older. <br /><br />I treat young kids differently than I do adults. Kids are learning and they get a lot more slack than I give an adult. If you are here for the first time, it's pretty hard to miss the link for the forum rules and search function. You see them before you see the post now link.<br /><br />Coming to the board and posting without making use of these two things is inexcusable, unless you are a kid. Most people are lazy and don't want to take the time to read the FAQ or use the search function. Sad but true.<br /><br />I just hope you guys that are bashing Sean never have kids that are treated the way you've treated Sean. You should be ashamed of yourselves and apologizing. I'm sure you'd be expecting the same if someone treated your kids that way.<br /><br />Jay<br /><br />I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: <b>Bob Pomilla</b><p>Roy Jones Jr. hasn't kicked anyone's ass lately. Except maybe his losing animals (see Micheal Vick).

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Jay, fair enough, but I don't remember you asking the age of anyone before telling them to use the search function.<br /><br />And for the record I am among those that feel Sean was treated poorly his first go around here.

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Notice, I said I didn't knowingly treat any kid that way. Zach was a young pup when first appeared here and I was more than happy to answer any all questions he had. We need to nurture the kids that are interested in the hobby, not run them off. For those that are worried about the value of their collection, if you run off the kids, then you aren't going to have many people around wanting to buy your cards when you decide to sell.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: <b>Todd Schultz</b><p>While I disagree with most and maybe all of what Scott has to say, even sometimes cringing at the presentation, I am glad I live in a country where he is free to express his opinion.<br /><br />"You're a grotesque oddity; you should be playing the banjo in Deliverance not moving amongst normal people."<br /><br />I'm also proud to say I live in a country where such vitriol can be spewed by a man who makes his living representing folks who engage in the most destructive, reprehensible actions against fellow human beings and who then has the sack to judge anyone on this planet, in either this life or the next. Bravo, defender of the righteous and King of the self-righteous.<br />

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Posted By: <b>James Feagin</b><p>Jay,<br /><br />As you may have noticed, our hobby has never been one to attract those with social skills. Any doof can make a lot of many and can accumulate tons of money cards. However, a true collector is someone who extends themselves to other people.

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Posted By: <b>Scott Elkins</b><p>(edited due to retardedness)<br />There are thousands of laws on the books and I am sure people here break them every day. It is illegal in most states to gamble on football games, but several on here do. It is illegal to do a lot of things - gambling one of them. Personally, I know SEVERAL on Net 54 who gamble quite regularly. To not and dodge your question, most of the gambling on cockfighting I have seen/participated in has been outside of VA. In fact, there are about a dozen signs or more, as soon as you walk inside an arena that specifically state "NO GAMBLING" in Virginia. I am sure if one gambled at one of these arenas in Virginia, they would be asked to leave.<br /><br />Jeff, isn't Roy Jones Jr. an African American? It seems you have a problem with people based on not only race however, but with the location of their residence. This is based on your on "Deliverence" comment. It really seems you have some serious issues that are showing through in your comments! Are you some elitist Nazi who believes you are superior to people based on their race, hobbies, residence, etc.? Are you wearing a white sheet while you are typing these comments of hatred?<br /><br />I have had enough of the hatred shown by some of these posts in this thread personally, and some of you will be relieved that I will post no longer after this post in this thread due to the intolerance of certain elitists here on Net 54 who want to bash anyone who is different in any way whatsoever. That will be a big relief to Jeff, as he can quit commenting about my residency and go back to his cases defending David Duke or some skinhead!<img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Todd, I would have hoped that you can appreciate that what I do for a living is protect our citizens' constitutional rights. That's all I do. I don't condone crime. I'm not part of a gang. And the fact that I am a defense lawyer does not mean that I am exempt from nausea when I witness animals being tortured by imbeciles. <br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I am glad you have quit posting. You make no sense and are still your own worst enemy. I still don't know why you have a fixation with me but get over it....go back to your chickens ...and if you gamble and win enough....you can move up to a triple wide.....

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Scott, nice Nazi reference. Always smart to use that on a Jew who had relatives killed by the Nazis.<br /><br />And yes, you nailed me again: because I hate cruelty to animals that DOES mean I hate African Americans. I can't believe I kept that secret for so long.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>James Feagin</b><p>Godwin's Law has been invoked, this discussion is officially over. Click here to learn more...<br /><br /><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodwin%27s_law" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodwin%27s_law</a>

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Yeah, Godwin's Law <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> I believe it has been amended to add Bin Laden.<br /><br />Jay<br /><br />I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: <b>Todd Schultz</b><p>I certainly understand and appreciate the Constititution and the Bill Of Rights. Yes, everyone is worthy of their protection--including those who exercise the 1st Amendment. As I stated, I laud your ability to explain the actions of others by day--sick, nauseating actions-- and then judge the words of others by night.

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Posted By: <b>Bob Pomilla</b><p>Not that I expect, anymore, that you will understand the distinction, but Leon has been upfront about his past, while you, Scott, self-righteously whine "I have never committed a crime" and everything you do is "legal" but are apparently not able to state definitively that you have not broken the laws of your home state. So much for your "honesty".<br /><br />The fact that you constantly reference yourself in this debate (your rights, your enjoyment), never once showing any concern or remorse over what the animals suffer shows that you lack that most important quality of empathy. Something, to your discredit, you will never possess.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p><br />Todd, Scott's First Amendment rights were not at issue here. His inhumane actions were. I'm sure you can understand the difference. And again, I don't condone crime. If Scott came out here and claimed that he abused children would I be exempt from passing judgment?

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Todd, you do realize that you are defending a person who raises birds, puts razors on their legs and lets them fight to the death?

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Dan, he's not defending Scott. He'll dress it up as if he's defending Scott's right to speak about abusing animals; what this really is is just an attack against me. I get this a lot from other lawyers. Not so much from regular people; just lawyers.

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>I understand that he already prefaced his "defense" of Scott, but I find it a little ironic. Your day job is your day job...it does not exempt you from your opinion of a person who already admitted guilt to reprehensible actions.

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>From Little Jerry to a Net54 "cock fight"...I think we pretty much covered it all. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Peter

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Dan, I also can be disgusted by what my clients have been accused of. It doesn't mean I throw their cases. Instead, I fight my ass off to ensure that they receive a fair trial. If I ultimately lose at least I know that the client received the full rights accorded to all Americans under our constitution. It's not easy work where I sit on my ass all day and churn out papers. And you're right, it's not like Scott came in here and challenged the accusations; for God's sake, he confessed.

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Posted By: <b>Randy Trierweiler</b><p>Jay & Scott, you alluded earlier to some mean-spirited folks on this board who commented on the "14 posts" a day on your board. <br /><br />I was one of them and I wish to apologize. <br /><br />After reading your posts in this thread, you have turned me around. I think if everybody on this board thought the ways you guys did, we would be a lot better off. <br /><br />Your right, Leon is evil. You guys are good and honest.<br /><br />Consider me converted. I went right to your board after my awakening and read all 6 posts from today!<br /><br />I have an idea that may increase traffic, maybe you could buy a banner on Leon's board:)<br /><br />Just trying to help.

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>I don't believe I could ever be a defense lawyer because I just couldn't be fair I think if I thought my client was guilty. I'd throw the case. <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Scott Elkins</b><p>edit my post and call me retarded. You have made it clear YOU are in control here. I am not going to post anything regarding the debate that was going on, as promised. I simply had to put my two cents worth in on Leon's continued censorship of things on this board, especially since what I stated was the truth and Leon did not like it!<br /><br />The difference between Leon and myself is I am MAN enough to admit when I am wrong and what I do in life. I have NOTHING to hide, as Leon does (and I am not talking about the past, but present as well)!

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Posted By: <b>Joe Pelaez</b><p>I want you to know, that I understand every word that you are saying.<br />I want to apologize for not going deeper into what I was trying to convey.<br />If I had, you would not have felt the need to explain your story.<br />However, after hearing it ... I applaud you.<br /><br />Now, let me try to explain what lead to going against my peers. ... not a very popular move. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />I was going to mention this before, but I was getting tired, and also I felt that it might have been over bearingly boring to the younger crowd ... proof of that was the rooster I saw after my last post. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />The thirties and the depression, were tough times for my parents, and everyone else living during that period.<br />My being born in 1931, just two years after the crash, didn't help matters.<br />My father was a baker, specialized in all kinds of French pastry, and during that time he apparently got another source of income as a suppliment.<br />I can recall seeing people selling apples on the street corners.<br /><br />Anyway, there got to be trouble in River City.<br />During the late thirties, he went to Leavensworth, and it wasn't on a scholarship.<br />During the very early forties, being that he was a Cuban citizen, he was deported to Cuba.<br />My mother was really going through some tough times.<br />My father, during the war, joined the Merchant Marines, and became a baker on troop ships during the whole war.<br />He was on the Murmunsk run to Russia, England, Mediterranean, India ..... All over the submarine world.<br />That's how we got to see him.<br />Eveytime he would dock in New York, he would appear like Hamlets ghost, and we would find out where he's been, because during the war, they would get there orders of their destination ... out at sea.<br />When the war was over, we got some help from some politicians, and because of his service in the Merchant Marines during the whole war, they helped obtain American citizenship for my father.<br />He's the only man that I know of that was deported from the United States of America ... and later made a citizen of same.<br />I'm very proud of my departed father.<br /><br />Leon, he was a representative from National Maritime Union, and eventually retired from the NMU.<br /><br />There were times that I would go and pick him up from the ports of NY.<br />You always had to be checked out when you're leaving.<br />Some times they over do it.<br />Leon, he would just look at me and say.<br />"You pay, and you pay, and you pay." <br /><br />Folks, going against my peer pressure was easy.<br />My mother had gone through enough.<br />I wasn't about to add more to her problems, and it worked out.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Scott--you are man enough to dress up roosters with spurs and hats and little outfits and let them slice each other up. We get that.

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Posted By: <b>JK</b><p>Jeff,<br /><br />Yes, I was waiting for that one all thread.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Bob Pomilla</b><p>" I am MAN enough to admit when I am wrong and what I do in life. I have NOTHING to hide,"<br /><br />Great. Then maybe now I'll get an answer to the question:<br /><br />Have you ever violated the following statute? A softball for a guy so commited to honesty.<br /><br />Virginia <br /><br />West's Annotated Code of Virginia Currentness. Title 3.1. Agriculture, Horticulture and Food. Chapter 27.4. Comprehensive Animal Laws. Article 6. Cruelty to Animals. § 3.1-796.125. Fighting cocks or other animals; attendance at fighting; penalty. <br /><br />Statute Details <br />Printable Version <br />Citation: VA Code 3.1-796.125 <br /><br />Citation: Code of Virgina 3.1-796.125. <br /><br />Summary: Virginia allows attendance at cockfights so long as the fight is not "for money, prize or anything of value, or betting or wagering money" or there is no admission fee charged.<br /><br /><br /><br />Statute in Full: <br /><br /><br />A. Any person engaging in the fighting of cocks or other animals, except dogs, for money, prize or anything of value, or betting or wagering money or anything of value on the result of such fight, shall be guilty of a Class 3 misdemeanor.<br /><br /><br />B. Attendance at the fighting of cocks or other animals, except dogs, where an admission fee is charged, directly or indirectly, shall constitute a Class 3 misdemeanor.<br /><br /><br />C. Attendance at an exhibition of the fighting of dogs shall constitute a Class 1 misdemeanor.<br />(1984, c. 492, § 29-213.93; 1985, c. 408; 1987, c. 488; 2003, c. 857.)

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Posted By: <b>Cat</b><p>Joe:<br /><br />What's a suppliment?

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Posted By: <b>Scott Elkins</b><p>the answer is NO - NOT IN VA! When cockfighting was legal in KY, until a few short years ago, I did gamble on the fights in that state. In fact, you might not want to hear this, but it is now becoming legal again in KY and the state is even taking income taxes out of any winnings at the fighting arenas - this started this year!<img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />BTW - Jeff, you are man enough to be a hypocrit, extremist, elitist and anything else you feel that you are today BEHIND YOUR COMPUTER KEYBOARD!

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Posted By: <b>Bob</b><p>Just got to the Board today and to answer the question asked 220 posts ago, yes, I am smack dab in the middle of this fiasco. Our office has been appointed to represent 11 of the cocksters. Mostly small potatoes guys because the wise guys don't qualify for the public defender's office. The general consensus here is, "what next?" With all the drug trafficking coming across Interstate 40 (we are the first county you hit on I40 when you get over the Oklahoma line) and our usual assortment of crime, we cringe whenever Crawford County makes the paper or tv because there is always something slightly bizarro going on around here, almost always from outsiders who visit our fair county and commit some crime here. People from eastern Oklahoma used to make a habit of taking people over here and killing and dumping them and then of course we got to represent them. <br />Most people here feel this is a total waste of time, money and is clogging up an already clogged court system but since the feds won't bust a single person for interstate drug trafficking (they make the state do it and hence our office gets 90% cases because too often they are Hispanic "mules" who don't speak English, don't have a pot to piss in and are trying to get some money to bring their families to the U.S.), they have to justify their existence in some way so they bust cockfighters and survivalists. Sheesh...

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>I'll take 6 posts a day that talk about vintage baseball cards over this mess. Here, you have 24 different topics responded to today and total of 6 of those topics are directly about vintage cards and one thread so far off topic Godwin's Law had to be invoked. So much for Leon's "more focused" board. This isn't any better than when it was run by Bill and Elliot and I don't think they were censoring posts. Not that I thought those guys did a bad job, just that when Leon held his little coup, he claimed he was doing it to make the board "more focused" on vintage cards. Instead, I see a board more focused on talking about Seinfeld and other non-card related things.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>The only thing I edited from cockfight boy was a blatant lie and a personal attack. That is against the forum rules. Any sly comments I have made in this thread were extremely provoked... as can obviously be seen. A person can only take so much before they retaliate...I have taken more than my fair share from Jay and Scott and I am tired of it....

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Yeah, Scott, again you got me. I spend my days ranting behind a keyboard, terrified of opening up my mouth in the real world. I never dare take unpopular positions in public or in the media or dare challenge anyone in authority - let's say the federal government. If only I was man enough to just sit around dressing up birds and cheering them on while they kill each other.<br /><br />Oh and PS: you called me an 'extremist.' That's ironic. Seriously. Look it up.

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Posted By: <b>Scott Elkins</b><p>calling me "cockfight boy" - WOW! Also, you people like to bash Mike O'Keffee a lot on here. One thing he pointed out that is true is the racism on this board - he even pointed out to me when the crazy guys with the fake Wagner were on here, some here called them "boys" as well, which is a racist term that Leon seems to like throwing around. Also, what I stated about Leon was heresay, he did NOT defend it and state it does NOT happen, he would NOT call the people who told me this liars if I were to mention their names, in fact he has defended their integrity on this very board - he probably would be in awe that they would tell me what Leon is up to in his spare time while on the phone! Leon it is simply TOO simple to delete posts or edit them when you do not agree with what is posted - especially for you. <br /><br />Also, I have not called Leon any names, as he has me. I have not made fun of the house he lives in, as he has mine. Leon's best retaliations have been to call me names and edit my posts. THAT should speak volumes!!!!!!!!!!!

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Leon, how about instead of censoring the post, just make a post pointing out the lies. Now with the post censored, if no one read Scott's post, they have no way of knowing if you are lying about that or not.<br /><br />Seriously, if your dream is still originally as envisioned, you need to start putting an end to all this inane crap that is going on here. I realize that here, it's probably impossible to walk that line between letting people be people and keeping the board focused because there is no way to compartmentalize threads. People are generally lazy and will not scroll down to look at other topics. They will only look at what is on their screen. And what's at the top of the most of the time, inane threads like this and others talking about Seinfeld and other non-card related stuff.<br /><br />Your original stated goal for the board was admirable, but you've failed miserably. The only thing you've successfully done is make the memorabilia and autograph posts go away. Personally, I'd rather see those than more Seinfeld references, and I hate autographs.<br /><br />Jay<br /><br />I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: <b>Bob Pomilla</b><p>Well, Scott, since despite your earlier statements, you are still posting, one last question:<br /><br />You state that you have never gambled on a cockfight in Virginia, yet you concede that you have gambled on them in other areas and if I interpret your 10:56 PM posting last night correctly (" You are correct about the gambling it seems."), you were not aware until yesterday that gambling on cockfights in Virginia was illegal. So? Why the restraint on your part?

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Bob, time for you back off. This is already headed in an ugly direction. You may not have been around at the time, but we had someone on this board that went so far as to do background checks and searches into people's personal histories in order to try and embaress them here. You are moving perilously close in that direction and it not a good one.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I suggest you go back to your own board. You can do what you want to there....please don't tell anyone what to do on this board anymore. Period. warm regards

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Posted By: <b>Bob Pomilla</b><p>Jay, I did say "one last question" and I, for one, mean what I say, but to think that someone can attack someone else's credibility and be immune to questions about their own, doesn't work for me.

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Leon, do you really think Bob's posts are productive and good for the board? I'm just waiting for him to start running a background check on Scott and probably me so he start making all sorts of accusations. You may not like, and I certainly don't agree with, what he has said in this thread, but to let this Bob character keep on the way he has is inexcusable. You'd be shutting him down in heartbeat if he was going after one of your lemming instead of Scott.<br /><br />Why do you want me to go away? Do my comments about your conduct make you uncomfortable because it exposes people to who you really are? Do you fear that I will hurt your precious cash flow? You make lots of claims about how you run this board, but you pick and choose when you enforce them. Perfect example is your censoring of Scott's post. <br /><br />This whole mess could have been avoided if you had followed your rule, no personal attacks, right away and nipped both Scott and Jeff in the bud right away. Instead you let things go because you dislike Scott. Remove Scott from the equation and ask yourself if you would have done the same thing.<br /><br />I won't go away because I enjoy exposing you for the fraud and hypocrite that you are.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: <b>Dan Bretta</b><p>Jay, you have never seemed to me to be the type that would condone cruelty to animals yet you are partners with such a person. I'm just wondering what you think of Scott's other "hobby"?<br /><br />You also seem to be condoning the practice of someone doing a background check in order to try and embarrass a poster on this board. True?

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Posted By: <b>peter chao</b><p>I doubt if we left anybody out...almost everybody has been insulted at least once or more. It's time to move on. Lock the thread Leon. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Peter

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Posted By: <b>Kenny Cole</b><p>It occurs to me that we can't even stay on topic in an off-topic thread. Does anyone else perceive that as a problem? The topic is cock-fighting, its pros and cons. Lawyers, Leon, the Constitution, and all other similar lightweight, namby-pamby posts have no place in these weighty discussions. Jeez, if things keep going off track like this, someone may really screw up and start talking about vintage baseball cards. We wouldn't want that.<br /><br />I was going to say more, but I think my time is better spent training (drinking) in preparation for the Net54 dinner. Wes may still want to eat the chicken, but I am (now feigning indignation) too disgusted to do that anymore. What if I choked on the remains of a spur left over from the chicken's last battle? What if I envisioned the chicken's grisly death as I ate it and choked as a result? Since I'm a lawyer, I'd be compelled to sue someone. That couldn't be good. <br /><br />Leon, next time can you order beef fajitas? Not from those Spanish Pamplona mean, horned, people goring type cows though. What I'd like is the plain old, no razors attached to hooves, not bred for bull-fighting, stupid cow who is killed in the normal inhumane way. I don't want my dead cow too bloody though -- medium rare is fine. If you can't arrange that (which, at the risk of being censored, would probably mean that you have some secret chicken-promoting pact with Mastro), I may have to attempt to survive on tasty malt beverages that evening. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Kenny Cole

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>I help Scott run the board because our vision what a board should be is similar. Beyond that, I could really care less what he does in his personal life. It's his life to live and he has to live with those decisions. <br /><br />I don't see where you think I condone background checks. I think Bob is getting very close crossing that very line like a former poster here did. If ever there was a truly scary moment in this board's history, it was back then when that guy showed up. This board doesn't need more people like that.<br /><br />I've never been a fan of locking threads, but the stupid threads like this pop up, the more I am inclined to see agree that locking threads isn't a bad idea.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.