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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I went back and read your post again. I think I took it the wrong way. My apology on that one....regards

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I don't have a problem with anything Doug has said they might do to a card. If grading companies can't catch something, because it's not there or can't be detected or seen, then so be it. Those are things I am not going to worry about. regards

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Posted By: <b>Doug Allen</b><p>Sorry guys my day job did not allow me to follow all of the dialogue today. To be honest I can't possible read it all. Let me make an additional comment based on what I have had a chance to read.<br /><br />Since my dialogue on this forum months ago I have met extensively with Joe Orlando and Dave Forman. As a result of this dialogue I totally understand what PSA and SGC consider alteration to cards and neither myself or anyone from my firm will ever engage in the alteration of cards. We will disclose alterations that we note in items that are consigned to us and will continue to scrutinize cards submitted to us that have already been graded by an independant service. I refuse to say anything else on the subject. If I indicated there was a fleck of tobacco on a card and I flicked it off there would be 20 posts about how inappropriate this is. Everything I say here is taken totally out of context and blown out of proportion that is the reason I choose not to answer specific questions on this subject.<br /><br />Someone I respect contacted me today and told me to stay off this forum. They told me I can't win. I totally disagree. I believe the majority of the people who read this forum understand that I am trying to be honest and responsive. Everyone who knows me understands that I am a person who considers much of my business success to based on ethics and integrity. <br />

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Posted By: <b>David Vargha</b><p><font color=blue>Fair enough. Apology accepted.</font><br><br>DavidVargha@hotmail.com

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Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>Weird how some collectors feel free to tell others to "go choose another past-time" if they voice issue with aspects of their chosen hobby.....as though you have divine truth and rationale to your beliefs, and everyone else can go jump.<br /><br />Seriously, aren't you just compulsive collectors - much like the rest of us, and you too are equally free to go find other pursuits?<br /><br />I'm yet to hear anybody actually suggest doctoring/altering cards is a GOOD thing, a POSITIVE for the hobby, so in effect you all have the same desire for un-fu@#*^ with cards as the rest of us.<br /><br />So why be an enabler? It's one thing to frown and shrug and give up, but another altogether to piss on efforts to keep cards from being doctored or honestly advertised.<br />Isn't the very least we can expect as a hobby community to be truthfully advised when the truth is comfortably at hand? <br />Just don't lie to us or pare down the facts to those you think we need or can understand.<br /><br />At least then we're not being played for suckers.<br /><br /><br /><br />Daniel<br />

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>So if I erase a tiny pencil mark on the back of a card and don't tell you then I am playing you for a sucker? Otherwise, I agree with much of what you said...

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Posted By: <b>JimB</b><p>"4) NONE of the Piedmont Wagners that have come up for sale can have their provenance traced to a date before the 1950's!"<br /><br />The Charles Bray Piedmont Wagner came with a correspondance letter he wrote to the person he purchased the card from. It was clear from the letter that the owner did not know the difference between Heinie Wagner and Honus Wagner. Someone in the hobby who would have printed a sheet of T206 reprints with a Wagner on it, even then would have known the difference. YOu are right that the provenance only goes to this point in 1953 (I believe), but it suggests that the owner probably had them for a while. Charles Bray used to advertise in the Sporting News. I imagine the person contacted him that way. My guess is he (the seller) was related to someone close to the printers and had one of those Piedmont sheets and cut it up with scizzors. The Bray Piedmont Wagner was obviously handcut.<br />JimB<br />

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Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>Leon, I'm fine with the pencil erasure if you tell me - not if you don't.<br /><br />And the reason it's important is because one man's art gum eraser is another man's laser cutter. The guy with the laser cutter doesn't REALLY feel bad about what he's doing because he sees a bunch of guys with erasers, and tubs full of floating cards that end up beneath encyclopedias, and gum/glue marks being magically removed, and corners un-flipped, and goes...."SEE, I'M NOT SUCH A BAD GUY, THEY'RE ALL DOING IT, WHAT'S THE DIFFERENCE?".<br /><br />Kapish?<br /><br /><br />Daniel

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Doug, thanks for your response. Now that you are accepting PSA's and SGC's definition of alteration, it would be clear that Mastro has changed its policy of "pressing out wrinkles or creases." Presumably, you will continue to erase pencil marks as long as they are not "power erased." <br /><br />I'm sure you will correct me if I am misstating Mastro's new policy.

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I understand what you are saying but don't necessarily take the next step...that's all....I have never tried to get a crease/wrinkle out of a card or trimmed a card. ... I have however, removed gunk with a wet cue tip, erased pencil marks, and turned down a corner with saliva...I don't think that makes me a bad person.........others might disagree with my dastardly ways though..... I don't condone major card repair or any of the 2nd or 3rd level stuff that has been spoken of...again, I am not taking that next step..... and I still sleep well....

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>My limited understanding of powerwashing is more like erasing paper ie..trimming, than removing marks. I could be wrong though....

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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>The difference in your dichotomy is that among the standards in the community, laser cutting is universally abhorred, while erasers and soaking are accepted on different scales. It is easier for you to live in a world of black and white collecting; but many of us are comfortable knowing what is taboo (i.e., trimming) and what is accepted by many (i.e., soaking gunk and erasing pencil marks). <br /><br />If you are trying to change the accepted community standards in this regard, you will find that you will have very little luck when faced with undetectable alterations -- because there is no way to police your applied moral values. <br /><br />I believe that the industry standard is essentially driven by alterations that can be consistenty detected. While there may be moral values on both extremes of that equation (puritans vs. laser cutting, color adders), most of us are somewhere in the middle. But I certainly respect your interest in keeping cards pure. If you ever find a way to ensure that better than SGC can, please let me (and them) know.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Corey R. Shanus</b><p>In all my many years of collecting I have heard of only two confirmed Piedmont Wagners (the PSA 8 and the one sold several years ago by REA (the Bray example?)) and rumors of a third (back in the 1970's). Yet you say that you have personally seen several that are confirmed 1950's reprints and they are so good that without proper disclosure they could pass as originals. Do you know the people who own these reprints, and if so, do you think they might be willing to share them with the rest of us? It seems to me that if they were not trying to fool anybody that they very well might for the benefit of all share what they have/know.<br /><br />Also, I'm curious to know your opinion as to whether these 1950's reprints were made from original plates or from duplicate plates. Finally, in another thread you mentioned that the PSA 8 Wagner exhibits certain characteristics that make you believe it is not a period card. What specifically are you referring to?<br /><br />In asking these questions I do not mean to belittle your views. Rather, until last year I had never even heard rumors of authentic-looking 1950's reprints, let alone an allegation that the PSA 8 example is not a period card, and I'm intrigued to obtain substantiation to what you claim.

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Posted By: <b>Kevin Saucier</b><p>&lt;"If it's so acceptable, then why do the people that do alterations stay below the radar and hide from the public."&gt;<br /><br />I know of one who doesn't hide...but maybe should have.<br /><br /><br />Questions:<br /><br />Who made up the terms 1st tier, 2nd tier, 3rd tier alterations and so on? Are these defined in a new grading standard? If pressing a wrinkle is considered altering, erasing is considered altering, trimming is considered altering and bleaching is considered altering then isn't there a single common denominator?<br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Doug, thanks for another response from Oracle of Delphi. Until you define what Mastro considers an alteration, your answer is unacceptable. You say you accept PSA and SGC's standards, but you also say that you have no problem with doing things that are patently against the standards of those companies. So, until you clarify that issue, absolutely nothing has been resolved.<br /><br />added: I guess I missed the memo about tiered alterations too.<br /><br />Jay<br /><br />I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Jay, stop wasting your time. Doug is in full defensive mode (except when he is in offensive mode complaining about being picked on due to his failure to provide a clear response to a very simple inquiry).<br /><br /> <br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>I think this probably falls under my morals and ethics things I was talking about when it comes to business and money. Doug appears to be putting aside good ethics because he fears that the answer will cost Mastro money. Why else would he dodge such an easily answered questioned?<br /><br />If they want to continue to spoon cards, etc and openly admit to it, I don't have a problem with it, but don't tell us you are following PSA/SGC guidelines while doing it. You are doing either one or the other. You can't have it both ways. This all we really want to know. At least I do anyway.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>Hi Paul,<br /><br />I totally understand what you are saying.<br />But I don't feel like this is some big moral crusade or other.<br />It's simply about industry standards.<br />I also don't agree in the least that there are common alterations that a 'vast' majority are in agreeance to, newly described as 'tier one' alterations (I actually kind of like that effort Leon <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>), and others that are in a completely different basket. I think it would run a lot closer to 50/50 in opinion on this board re erasing pencil and any other 'minor' doctoring - and that's among a small heavily enthused board of longer time collectors who have become somewhat hardened to the realities of alterations in the hobby. Move outside our niche group, and I would be surprised if numbers didn't run closer to 90/10 against ANY kind of card altering in the wider collecting community. Certainly undisclosed altering is frowned upon in all the other major antique collectibles. You don't buy a 350 year old french cabinet that's had it's doors replaced and get told buyer beware or it's just as good as original if you couldn't tell the difference yourself.....not when you're sold something in 'original unrestored' condition. If they step up to the plate honestly and completely detail any and all restorations they are aware of, and thus expect no more that 25% the price of an un-altered example, then everyone makes their decisions fairly.<br /><br />And to be honest with you (and myself) I'm under no delusions that setting a clean unambivalent standard against altering cards would end the practice, or that stocks would be erected and the tomatoes ripened in anticipation at nabbing the do-ers. However, its just like life. I tell my kid NEVER to hit his sister, even though I know he will on occasion when I'm not looking, and even when I am <img src="/images/sad.gif" height=14 width=14>.<br />You just set the rules to be ones that seem right, and honest, and hope the majority go with the flow and do the right thing.<br />As it is, with the enormous amiguity as to what is even acceptable in altering cards, clearly the field would seem open to all to have-a-go-and-make-some-dough as the keys to asylum are not even pretended to be hidden.<br /><br />That said, I'm with you. All my cards in SGC holders and I'll keep sending my business where I feel the guarantees are best.<br /><br /><br />Daniel

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Posted By: <b>Scott Elkins</b><p>on the other forum. You can e-mail me, but I promised Leon I would not post a link here and I am not doing it. Too much to keep typing over and over about my thoughts regarding your questions. You can probably even do a search on this forum and find some of my old posts about your questions. <br /><br />Leon, I like you as a person and have liked dealing with you. In fact, I just recently bought cards from you and I really like them - thanks again! However, I really don't like some of your Mastro defenses. Like I said, I have been collecting cards since 1978 and I have NEVER heard of these three levels of card altering you have devised! If I would have kept all the magazines, books, catalogs, etc. I have owned over the years regarding cards and our Hobby, I would need another home to store them in. An alteration is an alteration it would certainly seem from my experience. There is no need to try and develope a scale to justify what Mastro or someone else is doing is right.

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Posted By: <b>RC McKenzie</b><p>a vintage card arrived from ebay in the mail today that had slipped out of a toploader onto a piece of tape that was loosely closing the top of the sleeve. If I had ripped the tape off, about 1/8 of the top of the card would have gone to the circular file with the tape. I spent about 45 minutes carefully removing the card from the tape and toploader and managed to only cause paperloss above the border. I pumped my fist as I had saved the card from further significant damage. I'd say I was at level 1. lol, cheers

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Doug,<br /><br />You should be ashamed of yourself for insulting the intelligence of board members the way you do. The way you dodge the questions with your self-serving responses is appalling.

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>So Doug to reiterate the question that Jeff asked again and has been asked by numerous participants on this thread and which you continue to avoid,is it Mastronet's policy today to take creases out of the cards to "prepare" them for grading?<br /><br />How anyone now can be supportive of Doug coming on these boards when he refuses to answer the most basic of quesrtions is beyond me.<br />

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Posted By: <b>Doug Allen</b><p>I have answered the question. We do not alter cards that are submitted to grading services I am not dodging any questions and am not leaving any wiggle room. You all seem focused on crease removal so I will answer that specific question. PSA and SGC do not allow for anything that applies undue pressure on a card including crease removal. That would be considered an alteration of a card in keeping with this this is prohibited by my employees.<br /><br />I don't mind the inquiries. I have a great distaste for the sarcasm and in appropriate comments especially from Jay. "Oracle of Delphi", comments about profit over ethics. I think this is inappropriate for a guy who doesn't know me and has never purchased a card from me or my auction.<br /><br />Sorry but I am heading out on the road for the next two days to pick up consignments. Will have little access to my computer.<br />

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Finally, an answer the question. Thank you. <br /><br />Now, if had given that answer right from the get go, instead of the ambiguous ones you gave previously, there never would have been a need to repeatedly ask the question over and over. It also would have averted the Oracle of Delphi comparison. What are we supposed to think when you keep dodging a simple question with ambiguous answers. Whether or not I know you or have bought a card from Mastro doesn't matter, I'm still a potential customer, and that should matter to you, but you prove with that statement that unless I spend money with you that my question is unimportant and proves that you are more worried about protecting your bottom line more than anything else.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Prior post by Doug--late 2006<br /><br />"I have no problem with taking out light creases or surface wrinkles that break the surface".<br /><br />This mornings's post.<br /><br />"PSA and SGC do not allow for anything that applies undue pressure on a card including crease removal. That would be considered an alteration of a card in keeping with this that is prohibited by my employees".<br /><br />Now there is a 180. So to further clarify Doug you used to have no problem with taking creases out of cards but now it is prohibited by your employees.<br /><br />When was this change is policy?<br /><br />Why change now? This is not a new policy by PSA or SGC.<br /><br />Why has it been so difficult for you to be so forthcoming here?--no comments at the collectors dinner in New York and avoiding the question here on the boards?<br /><br />Jim<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Michael James</b><p>I must say that I have enjoyed reading this thread and appreciate the knowledge and concern that many of you have in regards to the issue in question. Two words that were mentioned in this thread earlier "honesty" and "integrity" have stuck out. I have been a collector for 35 years which is the majority of my life and in that time I have firsthand witnessed what "integrity" and "honesty" is or should be in the sports card/collectible field. "Honesty" and Integrity" are strong words and in a perfect world are the basis and foundation of each and every one of us. It is quite obvious and ever so apparent in todays society that the words "honesty" and "integrity" take a back seat when it comes to generating the ever so desired "green back". There was a time in the hobby when things were simple, affordable, and for the most part fun. Then greed came along and mass production went forward full speed ahead literally ruining the hobby and devaluing it. Things were no longer simple and new ideas had to be consumated in order to "revive" the hobby and "reinvent" it and bring it to where it is today. Of course things change in time for the better or for the worse but "integrity" and "honesty" remain as elusive as ever in this, should I say, once wonderful hobby. Fake autographs, trimmed/doctored trading cards, questionable practices, a constent recycling of people working for the card or auction companies fired for unethical practices and rehired elswhere within the buisness contributes to a "No-Vote" of Confidance. It has always amazed me how the "ethical" people are usually the ones who have the hardest time moving forward while the "unethicals" continue to move forward at their expense and others. Honesty? Integrity? Confidence? where has it all gone? Was it really there in the first place? I really don't know but from one who loves collecting, the sport of baseball, and the way it magically takes us back to our youth, I sure hope so! If one can look in the mirror and be happy with what they see then I guess it's a good day.

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Posted By: <b>Peter_Spaeth</b><p>Perhaps I am naive but I find it very hard to believe the technology existed in the 50s to reprint T206s so convincingly that experts could not tell the difference. And it seems equally implausible the original printing plates existed as of that time.

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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>"It's simply about industry standards."<br /><br />Agreed. <br /><br />"All my cards in SGC holders and I'll keep sending my business where I feel the guarantees are best."<br /><br />Agreed.<br /><br />I think SGC's standard reflect the industry standards. If 90% of pre-war collectors thought erasing pencil and soaking gunk was an impermissible alteration, then there is no way SGC would continue to slab such cards. I prefer to rely on the polls taken on Net54 last summer, and our collecting "niche" does not reflect a hardening of beliefs based on the disappointing reality of card alterations -- rather, speaking for myself, my belief system is based on common sense: trimming and adding color damage the integrity of the cardboard; saoking and erasing do not.<br /><br />"As it is, with the enormous amiguity as to what is even acceptable in altering cards, clearly the field would seem open to all to have-a-go-and-make-some-dough as the keys to asylum are not even pretended to be hidden."<br /><br />Again, there is ambiguity on the end of the scale with soaking and erasing, but there is no ambiguity on the other end of the scale with trimming and adding color. The polls last summer made that abundantly clear -- and, indeed, SGC's grading practices confirm that understanding. <br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p><img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />And again, I firmly believe that no matter the softness of the art gum eraser - the act of rubbing back and forth on paper fibres so as to remove a layer of 'something' from its surface would undeniably have impact on the integrity of that surface. Just becasue artists use them for do overs doesn't mean that the effect isn't actual, just that visually it is so minimal they can go on and have their artistic efforts be eye clean. Are there loads of unintentioal ways of impacting the surface of the card, sure. But I see it as a very obvious line one crosses when you do these things intentionally. <br />Further, though I never did the follow-up, I find it impossible to believe that swelling paper fibres through a good soaking has no effect on them on-goingly.<br />The rather facetious notion (not suggesting you have put it forward) that cards have previously been left in the rain or flooded in a basement does not take away from the simple premise:<br />Do you feel it is your right to knowingly and actively make alterations to the cards you buy/own?<br />I don't. But grind your teeth not (joke <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>), I won't be pushing this old barrow any further. As usual I just needed to have my say.<br /><br />Regards<br /><br /><br />Daniel

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Michael, you're right. Companies like to use the words "integrity" and "honesty" when describing themselves but clearly that is just part of a marketing package.

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Posted By: <b>boxingcardman</b><p>I've brought this up before but it bears reiterating given the debate at hand. All the auctioneers are doing business in California. California has a specific law barring alteration of cards without disclosure: <br /><br />Business & Professions Code 21671. <br />(a) Any sports trading card that is altered or refurbished shall be accompanied by a certificate stating the exact work done to the sports trading card, the date the work was performed, the cost of that work, and the name, phone number, and address of the person who performed the work.<br />(b) Any person or agent thereof, who knowingly sells or trades a sports card in violation of subdivision (a), shall both: <br />(1) Refund to the buyer, the full amount paid for the altered or refurbished sports trading card or the full retail value of any nonmonetary consideration received in exchange for the altered or refurbished sports trading card, or both.<br />(2) Be liable to the buyer for a civil penalty not to exceed five thousand dollars ($5,000) for each violation. Each card sold represents a separate and distinct violation.<br /><br />What is an alteration is covered in section 21670(a): "Altered or refurbished" means repair work which has been performed to enhance the value of the sports trading card as a collectible. This work includes, but is not limited to, filling in holes, building new corners, ironing out creases, or touching up the pictures or borders on the sports trading card.<br /><br />Doesn't matter if it passes SGC or PSA; the act of altering the card results in the disclosure requirement. If Mastro is "preparing" cards for grading by doing the things of which it is accused, it has to supply the required certificate to any California buyer of the card. Well, where are the certs? <br />

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>BoxingCardMan,<br /><br />In his new spirit of answering our questions and full disclosure, I am sure Doug will quickly produce the certificates--after all this is the "New" Mastronet.<br /><br />Jim

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Posted By: <b>Peter_Spaeth</b><p>They aren't "altered". <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

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Posted By: <b>Peter_Spaeth</b><p>They should amend subsection b to include "grades".

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Jim- they haven't been Mastronet for a couple of years. They are now Mastro Auctions, to be precise.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>I didn't see anything in the new Mastro catalogue describing any "alterations" as defined by PSA (and Mastro) now. I feel very confident that such prep work is no longer done by Mastro as evidenced by the lack of disclosure on any auction item. After all, Doug has been so straightforward and open about all of these issues I'm certain he will continue this new course of conduct.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Dean H</b><p>I'm a very small player but I think disclosure is all that is being asked for. Let the buyer decide what is acceptable to them and what is not. But I realize that will not happen because some potential bidders will be turned away by what may have been done and therefore possibly lead to lower realized prices.<br /><br />Dean

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Posted By: <b>Mike</b><p>Jeff,<br />Now that is funnier than Seinfeld.

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Posted By: <b>shane leonard</b><p>Jay, you keep insisting that Doug lay out all their business practices and how he feels about "preping" cards for grading. Do you really think he needs to explain himself to you? You aren't even a customer of his. This is like you going into McDonalds and telling the manager that you have never eaten here before, but "how do you cook these fake, chicken McNuggets?" <br />If this was Barry Sloates auction and I had a question for him that was absolutely ripping my gut apart, I would pick up the phone and call him. Whatever he told me would be between me and him. It is obvious Doug's stance on things as he has answered this really clearly. Maybe not in legal terms as Jeff would have it, but he has. <br /><br />Barry, hope you don't mind using you in my analogy. <br /><br />Shane

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Shane, Doug hardly answered very direct questions clearly. Hardly. And this has nothing to do with "legal terms." We all asked for some simple information. My question was the same as Jay's and Jim's and Peter's and... And no one was asking for a response in legalese.<br /><br />I've spent 30K on Mastro auctions in the past 9 months. Do you think I deserve to know how the McNuggets are cooked?

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>No problem Shane- it allowed me to make the 200th post.

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Shane, I hope you don't own a business or are involved in customer service. Whether a person has bought anything from a business is irrelavent. If I walk in to McDs and ask how the food is prepared and with what, it doesn't matter if I've ever bought anything there before. As a business owner/manager, you better be bending over backwards to make want to spend my money with you. I don't blindly spend my money, especially large sums of it. Salespeople must salivate when they see you since, from your posts, you obviously don't ask any questions before you buy anything. You sir, are what's known as a sucker.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>"I've spent 30K on Mastro auctions in the past 9 months. Do you think I deserve to know how the McNuggets are cooked?"<br /><br />You should've asked before you ate them.<br />

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Well, Paul, if I did that then according to Shane I'm not entitled to any information as I'm not yet a customer.<br /><br />So, I'm asking -- am I entitled to a straightforward answer to a very simple question from Doug - or not?

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Posted By: <b>shane Leonard</b><p>Jay, <br />I do own my own business and I do my research on what I purchase. I can tell you that if you aren't my customer, I owe you nothing. If you are trying to use my services for free or trying to throw me under the bus, I don't want to talk to you. My point is, the question has been answered, just not point blank like you would want him to. You can think I am a sucker if you want. I couldn't care what you think. <br /><br />Jeff<br />That $30,000 in nine months is great. I have sent them $169K in the last year as well. I am very aware of what goes on with grading cards and I am not ignorant to think that a 1933 Goudey PSA 9 came from someones collection untouched for 74 years. To each his own on how you view this, but come on be real! I don't want to buy a card that has been recolored or trimmed and I don't want PSA/SGC holdering those either. This thread sheads light to issues that should be exposed, but Mastro does not practice uncommon/unethical alteration to cards. If I am wrong, I certainly would discontinue using them as my primary contact. <br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>shane Leonard</b><p>Jeff,<br />You are entitled to know everything that you want. Pick up a phone and ask him nicely and I am sure that he would help you with your questions. If you are going to place him on trial, you probably are not going to get the answer that you are looking for. <br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Shane, I find it very strange that someone with such a relationship with Mastro would ask for less, not more, information from them on cards you are purchasing. Makes no sense at all.<br /><br />Shane, you're right. I'm going to call Doug tomorrow or Friday and ask him these questions and then report back, verbatim, what he told me. I think that all of us deserve to know such important information about Mastro's practices, not just those that spend large dollars with them. How does that sound?

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Shane, how in the world do you build a business if you aren't willing to answer questions that are asked by potential customers? That's a formula for failure.<br /><br />You may be a lemming and go along with whatever the crowd is doing, but I will not condone accept altering cards as part of collecting. People like you who don't want to rock boat allow these people to continue altering cards and selling altered cards as undoctored. It's people like Jim, Jeff and myself and that will hopefully change the current status quo. <br /><br />If no one is willing to speak out, then change will never happen.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: <b>shane Leonard</b><p>Jeff,<br />I feel comfortable with Mastro. When I have a reason not to be comfortable with them, I will spend the same as Jay does with them.<br /><br />Regards,<br />Shane

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Shane, that's wonderful that you feel comfortable with them. I hope to be as well. And while you feel comfortable that Doug will be more forthcoming over the phone, 1 on 1, he refused to answer Jim Crandell's question about Mastro's altering practices when they met in NYC. Perhaps his policy has changed since then.

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Posted By: <b>shane Leonard</b><p>Jay<br />You do need to answer questions to help current customers and potential customers. I agree with you on this.<br />I am not a lemming -whatever the f(*&^ that is. <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br />I am not condoning alteration of cards, please don't get me wrong on this point. I want my cards to be enhanced free. I believe that Mastro does not cross this line. It is that simple. If you don't believe this, then Mastro is somewhere I would not spend your money. <br />I can rock a boat, don't worry bro. I can rock it until every deadbeat falls out of it. <br />I am glad that you have spoken up so that people are aware. Here is a little secret though.....it has been happening along time. This may not be an excuse for it to continue, but it will.<br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Anyone feel like taking a deep breath and counting to ten?

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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>"So, I'm asking -- am I entitled to a straightforward answer to a very simple question from Doug - or not?"<br /><br />Sure. But it is remarkable to me that you do not realize that none of your bantering would have been necessary if you had picked up the phone and (a) called before you spent $30K on baseball cards, like a diligent consumer would have; and (b) if you called after you found out something about your purchases that concerned you.<br /><br />Do you really think that the environment that you have created on this thread is conducive to getting constructive answers to your questions?<br /><br />Bad customers are bad customers, even if they spend $30K on the product. <br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>First, I never realized that Mastro altered cards until after Doug mentioned it out here. Next, when you buy graded cards you assume that you are only dealing with the bona fides of the grading company -- it was not until Doug made his admission that I learned I had to trust them as well not to try to slip something past PSA or SGC. Finally, Jim Crandell created a very nice environment when he met with Doug and asked the same question and got a 'no comment' from him. Doug came out here on this thread and was evasive in his responses to the same question -- until he finally came clean (sort of). So, perhaps whatever so-called environment that was created here worked to get some answer out of him.<br /><br />And finally, I make no apology for airing my questions and criticisms on a public board of like-minded collectors. I think it would be weasly to pick up the phone, get the information and then not share it with the rest of you. Or get on the phone, make Doug feel as if he is having a private conversation with me and then blast the info out here - also weak in my opinion. What is the purpose of this board if not to air all of these issues publicly?

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>How does Jeff's wanting clarification on Doug's answer being a bad customer? Doug's initial answer was ambiguous, at best. Even I wanted clarification because Doug claimed that Mastro would be following SGC/PSA guideline, yet he had early come on this board and stated that Mastro does things to cards that violate these guidelines. Why anyone wouldn't want that clarified is beyond me.<br /><br />Shane, I've been in this hobby a very long time. Few on this board can claim to have been around longer. As Scott Elkins pointed out, trimming and altering cards was never a real issue until Jim Copeland came on the scene and made all the doctoring cards a worthwhile propositions. I remember being set up at a show at the Moscone Center in SF. Someone asked me if I had any oversized t206s and really low grade 33 Goudey's. I asked if that's what he collected. He said, no. He wanted the t206s to trim down and try to sell to Copeland and Goudeys to turn to pulp so that he could fix up other Goudeys with original stock.<br /><br />That was my wake up call to what was really happening in the hobby. Even back then, I never chased high grade cards, but from that point forward, I never looked at a NM card the same way again.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: <b>shane Leonard</b><p>Jeff<br />I would encourage you to call Doug to get whatever information that you need. I do agree with Jim that because of this thread he probably won't be giving you any earth shattering information. Give it a try.<br /><br />Regards,<br />Shane

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Posted By: <b>joe brennan</b><p>4) NONE of the Piedmont Wagners that have come up for sale can have their provenance traced to a date before the 1950's!"<br /><br />The Charles Bray Piedmont Wagner came with a correspondance letter he wrote to the person he purchased the card from. It was clear from the letter that the owner did not know the difference between Heinie Wagner and Honus Wagner. Someone in the hobby who would have printed a sheet of T206 reprints with a Wagner on it, even then would have known the difference. YOu are right that the provenance only goes to this point in 1953 (I believe), but it suggests that the owner probably had them for a while. Charles Bray used to advertise in the Sporting News. I imagine the person contacted him that way. My guess is he (the seller) was related to someone close to the printers and had one of those Piedmont sheets and cut it up with scizzors. The Bray Piedmont Wagner was obviously handcut.<br />JimB<br /><br /><br />If I read the letter correctly, Bray was stating the difference between the two Wagners, (Hienie and Honus) Never was there a reference that it was actually Honus. And the Plank back was never stated? Where do you tie all these together from this letter. Where does it say he purchased them and it was Honus and Plank with a piedmont back? I need you to show me the tie. Thanks, Joe<br><br>In Rememberance of James W. Brennan Sr. 1924-1982. Dad, thanks for everything you did for me.

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Posted By: <b>shane Leonard</b><p>Jay,<br />That is the stuff that I don't want to be apart of. Clearly a different animal than laying down a corner or cleaning a wax stain off with a pair of pantyhose. I don't want a card in my collection that has had a haircut.<br /><br />Shane

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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>...but I think you handled this one quite poorly. The only reason its any of my business is because you aired your b*tch on a public chatboard that I frequent. I find your cause neither noble nor necessary. <br /><br />For the Nth time, if SGC will grade it and guarantee it, I really could care less because any future owner of that card is protected from anything untoward that may one day be discovered about the 100-year history of that card.<br /><br />The day that you purchase a card graded by SGC that was overgraded or improperly graded and SGC will not comp you the difference in what you paid and the appropriate value of that card if properly graded, then I'll be interested in hearing it. But in the meantime, what value you think has been added by Mastro guaranteeing cards that were subsequently graded by SGC and guaranteed by SGC is beyond me. You'll never know what happened in the other 99 years of that card's history -- and you really should be comfortable with that.<br /><br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Alan</b><p>My 2 cents...<br /> The folks who have been harping on Mastro for their, "lack of disclosure,", please show me an example of a single business anywhere that is willing to admit how it squeezes every penny of profit from every possible area. No business would be so forthcoming! I for one applaud Doug Allen as well as Steve Verkman and other dealers who willingly respond to this forum (frankly, I am amazed anyone would continue to respond after the way some board members attack every letter typed by these dealers). I completely understand the frustration from a collector's point of view, but please think how any business would respond to your questions. If Mastro or any other auction house removes creases, erases marks, etc, do you really expect them to own up to it? Would you if you were in a similar position? Even if the auction house is considered to be completely trustworthy, do you really think the occasional slip up, error, or ommission will not occur? All of these auction houses are in business to make money, not to specifically cater to a handful of customers who believe they are waging a moral crusade.<br /> I would also like to state that I deplore any alterations made to a card after its manufacture, but without a uniform code of standards for the industry the debate and attacks will produce nothing of substance. I doubt a uniform code will ever exist (barring a major calamity involving high dollar cards and at least one major auction house) because the sports auction business is highly competitive. For everyone who complains about this issue on a thread like this, the only way to get your voice heard is through your wallet. Attacking dealers like Doug when he willingly posts on this forum will only drive other collectors from your position. Instead, create a new thread (if needed) to call for a boycott of any auction house that does not conform to the standards you agree upon. <br /> Bottom line: These are busineses run for a profit. It is against their best financial practice to disclose all that is being requested, ergo, it will cost them money to make the disclosures. Ergo, they will not (nor should they have to) do it.<br />Alan Elefson

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Paul, why does everything have to come back to you issuing yet another valentine to SGC? And who asked Mastro to 'guarantee' anything? The point is, I don't know what the hell happened to the cards I buy after Mastro receives them and before they sell the cards -- and I would like to know that information. If I can't see the alteration how am I going to ask SGC to guarantee the grade? Buyers are at a significant disadvantage when dealing with an auction house that alters cards before selling them to the public. I just think it's fair that we're told what they do to the cards after they receive them from consignors. And for the last time, the only reason Doug got dragged over the coals here is because he refused to provide a clear answer - for days.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Peter Spaeth</b><p>Do you REALLY like SGC or are you just saying so? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br />Just busting your chops and not singling you out, it seems the whole discussion has become a bit redundant so maybe it's time to take it O/T or something. Seinfeld anyone?

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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>"How does Jeff's wanting clarification on Doug's answer being a bad customer?"<br /><br />That's not what makes him a bad customer. His method is. Not that Jeff cares (obviously). His view is essentially, I spent $30,000 on cardboard, I deserve answers to all questions, wherever and however I want. I respectfully disagree to his entitlement to anything other than what he paid for.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Alan, I agree with you what you wrote. I think the funniest thing about this thread is that Doug, despite his refusal to directly answer the questions posed, actually comes across as painfully honest in a way -- because any fraudster would simply say, "of course, we don't alter cards" - and then alter them anyway. That's what I expect from auction houses because as everyone can agree, money is the bottom line.

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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>For me, it all boils down to protecting my investment -- whether it is $3 or $30,000. Given the potential for alterations on 100 year old cardboard, it is insane not to have that investment protected by a guarantee of no alteration. If you have a guarantee of no alteration, then anything that happened to that card prior to your acquisition of that card is covered -- period. There should be no need for any further discussion on the topic. "S", "G" and "C" are three letters than sum all of the foregoing up for me so I don't have to keep writing it down long-form. <br /><br />I continue to be perplexed by some collectors' needs to prove the purity of a 100-year old piece of cardboard, beyond a money-backed guarantee. <br /><br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Paul, I wonder if Doug Allen thinks I'm a bad customer. I'm guessing no.

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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>...yes. So what? <br /><br />I'm sure he loves having to come on here and defend his business practices to you in a public forum. It's his favorite thing. He'll probably send you a Christmas card thanking you for being such a nice guy.<br /><br />You seem to lament that "money is the bottom line," but then you say that you deserve answers based on $30K in purchases. You may be a strong customer, but your $30K in purchases was only $X ahead of the second bidder in all those auctions, i.e., remove yourself from those purchases and they don't lose $30K.<br />

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Posted By: Peter SpaethBrian S, where are you? We could keep this going for another 200 posts at least.

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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Yeah, funny how that works: if you give money to a business you expect straightforward answers. I wonder how my business would do if I told my clients that I won't defend my practices or respond to questions. I'd do real well.<br /><br /><br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>...of your questioning. That's my only point. <br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Paul, thanks being one of the masses that prefers to stick their head in the sand. <br /><br />My issue is not with SGC. They don't alter cards for resale. My issue is with the people that do altering. I don't care if it's detectable or not. To me, it's still wrong and what Doug claimed went on at Mastro is wrong in my book. That's why I wanted the clarification.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I love pinatas. You get to beat the crap of something and get rewarded with candy.

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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>I don't see where how much business Jay has done with Mastro should enter into it. He is a knowledgeabl;e guy and has valid questions. Doug would no doubt be surprised at how much business I have done because in the past I have bought through dealers in addition to under my own name--yet I don't expect any different treatment than Jay.<br /><br />I sort of come at this the same way as Jeff(wow). I was stunned when Doug admitted to altering cards on Net 54 and then promised to get back to us after talking with Forman and Orlando. No explanation was forthcoming. Then at a moderate sized collectors dinner I hosted (Barry was there) he flat out refused to comment on how they altered cards suggesting that he had caused enough controversy already. Then he comes on here, grandstands and refuses to answer direct questions about his company's business practices until finally he sort of confesses that they have changed their policy(Double Wow).<br /><br />Shane--you are a good hobby friend and I think you are a smart guy but I think you are wrong on this one.<br /><br />Jim

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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>"Paul, thanks being one of the masses that prefers to stick their head in the sand."<br /><br />I prefer to call myself a vulgar realist.<br /><br /><br /> <br /> <br />

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Doug did say much earlier in this thread that he would be out of town for a couple of days picking up consignments, and would not be able to respond during this time. Why not at least wait until he is back in the office, then continue this. I think at this point he will be compelled to say something.

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Posted By: <b>shane leonard</b><p>Jim,<br />I don't know how I am wrong, but am always willing to listen. I don't like altered cards. I pay for SGC/PSA to guarantee that they are not altered. I know how to remove a crease, I just can't do it without ruining the card-so I don't do it. I don't pay anyone to "improve" my cards and I don't want a tampered card. <br />Jim, you and I have discussed this before and we agree to disagree on the fact that wiping a card down to remove wax or a dust is not a foul. Laying down a corner or smashing a wrinkle down is something I don't have a problem with either. After this, I got a problem with it.<br /><br />Email me directly Jim if you care to discuss furthur.<br /><br />SL

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Posted By: <b>Gilbert Maines</b><p>So Boxingcardman, in order to make use of the California law, one would have to prove both that an alteration took place, and that the seller was aware of that. I bet that is more difficult than it sounds.

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Posted By: <b>Sean C</b><p>We already have an admission from Doug that they have done so in the past without disclosing it to the winning buyer(s). Such an admission would probably go a long way should someone ever decide to sue Mastro. <br /><br />Quoting<br /><br />So Boxingcardman, in order to make use of the California law, one would have to prove both that an alteration took place, and that the seller was aware of that. I bet that is more difficult than it sounds.

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Posted By: <b>MikeU</b><p>"Shane, I hope you don't own a business or are involved in customer service. Whether a person has bought anything from a business is irrelavent. If I walk in to McDs and ask how the food is prepared and with what, it doesn't matter if I've ever bought anything there before. As a business owner/manager, you better be bending over backwards to make want to spend my money with you. I don't blindly spend my money, especially large sums of it. Salespeople must salivate when they see you since, from your posts, you obviously don't ask any questions before you buy anything. You sir, are what's known as a sucker." - Jay B.<br /><br />One difficult item for a company/business to cope with is the fact that all customers do not have a net positive gain, nor are they always right. I personally know of several companies that were forced into bankruptcy trying to please OEM's. The recurring problem is nearly uniform:<br /><br />1. Not being able to tell the customer no when appropriate, particulary in the face of duress/threats. <br />2. Selling at zero or negative margin in hopes of partnership building and future business. <br />3. Identifying customers that are too difficult or costly to deal with. Refuse to quote these jobs or include sufficient money to cover "high maintenance" portion. <br />4. Identify qualified/significant leads and focus on them e.g. all inquiries are not equal and do not deserve the same attention. There are only so many resources and tough choices have to be made. <br />5. Identify your truly valuable customers e.g. high margin, low hassle etc. and treat them like gold. Many times your most valuable customers (most profit) are not simply the customers you have the most order value with. <br /><br />Back on Topic:<br /><br />1. I commend Doug for being truthful last year regarding wrinkle removal. <br />2. I also commend Doug for changing his wrinkle removal practice after the realization that this was a problem with SGC/PSA and many collectors. <br />3. I find it humourous that Doug = evil and Rob = innocence. REA has sent out the letter that Mastro lies about there catalog distribution and a letter that people pay more at REA because their customers know that do not alter cards, like everyone else does. Also, REA sent the letter they never resubmit cards, unlike Matro. We know publicly of two examples of cards that were rejected by one company as authentic and slabbed by another company. Apparently, authenticy issues can be resubmitted, just not grade issues. I do agree that REA market perception is probably the pinnacle of integrity in the auction business. However, Rob is a key player involved in perpetuating the biggest the "Holy Grail" sin in the hobby and has a contridiction in the reslabbing of cards deemed unathentic. In any case, is there truly a difference in integrity bewtween Rob and Doug? <br /><br /> <br />

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Posted By: <b>boxingcardman</b><p>Rob did not start a post on N54 this week about his company's auction policies. Doug did. I think many posters here are losing sight of the fact that Doug started this thread to toot his company's horn only to be confronted with some difficult questions that he did not handle well directly. No one called him up and asked him to make his initial post; he did it for (presumably) his own commercial reasons. Had I been advising him I would have told him to stay out of things here and simply let the cards do the talking. However, he chose to come in here and post on behalf of Mastro and to take positions that seemed to be in conflict with his company's prior positions. Sure he was cross examined pretty hard (for a setting outside court) but if he can't take that heat he has to stay off the board in the first place.