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Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>He very clearly does not curry ANY respect anymore on this board, so ANY endeavour he would embark upon would be a failed one.<br />His doing, absolutely, and a politician he aint.<br /><br />But this wasn't a thread about him trying to curry support for his mission. More a post with some foot in mouth, and the answer again was to either shut him up or mock him. There was no serious debate going on, just a chat that grew into some flaming.....and the ultimate flame is to tell someone they don't even deserve to be part of the conversation.<br />My take, but I give up.<br /><br /><br />Daniel<br />
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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Leon- apostrophes+ A+<br /><br />spelling- should be "supersede"<br /><br />We allow for one spelling error! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Oops, just noticed your "lets" needs an apostrophe, as in contraction for "let us." Hey, what can you do.
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Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>Joe D. <br /><br />The answer to that is, because what they say feels true. Perhaps they have an ability to tell a story in a way that gets through to people, and changes opinion for the better.<br /><br />I don't know what kind of man Martin Luther King was in his home. Or JFK. But for me, completely inconsequential to their messages. They could turn out to be scumbags and it wouldn't change the underlying truths they were able to articulate.<br /><br />So respectfully, I disagree.<br /><br />Daniel
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Posted By: <b>John</b><p>Daniel,<br /><br />Good in theory but if JFK or MLK were alive today in the media super blender of today they may have had any dreams crushed. Times were a bit simpler back then. <br /><br />But I agree with you convey the message, however if you want to be a leader you better act like one, Jim is not acting like a leader IMO, do you think his actions and responses have bettered his cause??<br />
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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>John- I agree with you. Jim had a very good idea and I do believe he was sincere, even if part or much of his motivation was related to his own collection. There is nothing wrong with protecting your own interests.<br /><br />But he has not done a very good job at all in trying to unite people for a common goal. I think he has been confrontational to everyone who arguably could have been one of his allies. I too feel that it would be pointless for Jim at this point to form any kind of coaltion because he has lost most of his support.<br /><br />A great idea, but not gone about the right way.
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Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>Wonka, he's done the crappiest job I've seen on anything since the guy I had round to fix my pond....took over 6 weeks to get it running <img src="/images/sad.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />And agree again about today's media. It's why we get so many below average politicians, whose only real abilities lie in carefully morphing an image so as to get elected. Me, I want a politician with a wart on his ass and a giant brain in his scull! Err, if it's a her's it's fine too!<br /><br />Daniel
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Posted By: <b>Jim Crandell</b><p>Well where do I start.<br /><br />First I obviously do not care what anyone on this board thinks of me--I actually laugh as I read the comments. I love T206 the best--unbeleievably uneducated observations. Bretta and Dave seem to be attack dogs without much to add.<br /><br />I do have a job and cannot stay at the computer matching posts with Dave, T206 and Bretta.<br /><br />Have to run again but I only respond to the attacks of others. Like a savvy politician--leave no attack unanswered. Second, I am just amazed how in the dark people like T206 are about the hobby. Third, how low can you get posting the contents of a private e-mail on a public message board. Here is a person(T206) with absolutely no class.<br /><br />So you all who want to attack me some more have at it--if you are interested in any part of the graded card hobby I will respond. If you have any questions or any specifics in your personal diatribes go ahead but you all are making yourselves look pretty ridiculous.<br /><br />And I guess this was a question but no I am not resubmitting any of my 25,000 psa 8 cards to sgc(even though Dave Forman is a personal friend and I have great respect for him) and no Dave I am not in this for financial reasons but I have a budget and I take advantages of surges in value for some cards which I believe are unsustainable so I can buy others which represent good value. I then buy them back at lower prices. If I do say so that strategy has worked spectacularly well.<br /><br />Dave , T206, Bretta--have fun attacking me the next few hours--I won't be here. Ha ha ha ha.<br /><br />Dav
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Posted By: <b>dennis</b><p>i knew when i read jims post b4 i went to work today at 6 am,that he would again come under attack (as he would surely think)...but also to read leon defend jim AND post on a willie mays card, wow! also daniels defense of jim c. is priceless. does anyone really think (that anyone) can clean up the mess with the doctoring of cards when the prices continue to sky rocket even for the armpit collectors such as myself?
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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>...classless, uneducated and in the dark does not respond to the merits of the many posts here that find you incredibly hypocritical. When someone resorts to baseless name calling, that is usually a sign of a losing argument -- if our e-mails were personal or in confidence, you sure could have fooled me. <br /><br />I think Leon said it best a few posts ago, but it bears repeating -- having won the argument, I'll stop participating now.<br /><br />
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Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>Again, I don't see the point of these discussions. Do we really want our cards (graded or ungraded; high grade or low grade) to become worthless? It seems that most of the proponents of this conspiracy are talking out of their a**ses; or maybe just I am, which is certainly possible. But, I haven't seen one scintilla of evidence that should promote this conversation from a case-by-case analysis to some sort of pandemic. <br /><br />What, then, is the purpose, other than rendering our cards worthless (or less valuable), by engaging in all of this babble?????
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Posted By: <b>jeffdrum</b><p>If it is worth that is the concern, and if that worth is based upon something being something that it is not then I find a basis for discussion. I certainly don't think it is anyone's intention to render their collections worthless. <br /><br />Not reviewed for the correct use of the apostrophe.
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Posted By: <b>Jim Crandell</b><p>Whew,<br /><br />I exposed T206 for the fool he is--time to move on.<br /><br />Barry and Daniel,<br /><br />I never said I had to be a leader in this but while I have seen a large number of collectors genuinely concerned, I have seen noone step up to lead the charge. Both Bruce and Mike Uhl have had some good ideas but they both involve $100 or more up front fees. It requires money but above all it requires time.<br />I could do it but I have a 60-hour a week job and I travel almost every week.<br /><br />Its not dead--just have to get those collectors who are genuinely concerned about card alteration and come up with a plan. Not many of them hang out here...but there are some.
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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Jim, I'm curious as to why you never directly responded to Corey's comment. Perhaps you were too busy describing someone as "unbeleievably [sic]uneducated." Well, at least you spelled "uneducated" correctly. <br /><br />
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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Jeff,<br /><br />I didn't realize he made one--and I don't proofread what I say and I am a lousy typer--do you want to add those things to what you attack me for?
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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>You manage to catch all the perceived insults but miss the constructive criticism. And Jim, again, remember that me, Barry, Leon and many others supported you for a long while. You're just too distasteful to be around evn on a vintage baseball card board. Why can't you understand that people don't like you for one simple reason -- you're not likeable?
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Posted By: <b>Dave</b><p>Maybe it's time you take your lunatic erratic self and go play in some corner with Dick Cheney. Alike minds...alike self-absorbed.
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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Response to Corey:<br /><br />1)I have been "very supportive of your efforts to rid the hobby of altered cards".<br /><br />Thank you-I noticed you made a supportive comment once. Want to help?<br /><br />2)I have "taken at face value the sincerity of your feelings"--you should--why would I do things that hurt the value of my collection.<br /><br />3) Its "hypocritical" not to break out my own cards out of PSA 8 holders and resubmit to SGC. <br /><br />Corey--this is unrealistic--you would not find any substantial high grade collector willing to do this. It is likely I have some altered cards as everyone does and likely some of my 8s could be judged as 7s by SGC. I will devote money, time and effort to trying to fix the hobby but I am not going to do an experiment on my psa 8s.<br /><br />4)"You would gain instant credibility and respect"--who cares--not important to me if I am liked respected or credible by net54 board members--the facts are what they are--if people want to close their eyes to card alteration fine. As I said I am a good survivor in the wild wild west.<br /><br />Jim<br /><br /><br />5)Lastly, others have done things on a smaller scale in terms of breaking out cards from one grading service4 to see how they would grade in another.<br /><br />Jim
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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Jeff,<br /><br />I don't care if I am likable or not likable--I have tons of friends in and out of the hobby and could care less if you or others are my friend--in fact I would rather not be.<br /><br />Barry is a nice guy but his primary concern is retaining his hobby friendships and dealer relationships. At the end of the day I think Barry would just punt and say its the card vgraders responsibility.<br /><br />Leon gets his digs in at me and I think he was supportive in part until Scott came out and attacked me(I don't even know him) and Leon who is buddies with him started changing how he interacted with me.<br /><br />I never saw you as being supportive. At least Barry attended our hobby dinner to discuss alteration.<br /><br />Dave the Dunce--great comment--keep it up
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Posted By: <b>Dave</b><p>Dave the Dunce...<br /><br />Really great comment there Jim. I could go the route of Jim the Jackass...but then I'd be playing on your third grade level. Your an old tiresome act. Everything said to you on this board, by everybody...not just Dan and I...are brought on by yourself. And yes, I know you "dont care if people like you or not". That is self evident. What is also self evident is that you will never contribute anything worthwhile to this board nor any other (CU). It is fairly obvious you enjoy stopping by here in the morning and throwing a few more grenades in on these threads. Your short on class, and short on time...as usual.
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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p><br />Jim, for you to say that I was never supportive is laughable. Everyone here knows I supported you quite vigorously for a long while. You just are too nauseating to stand next to, even in a virtual world. I still agree with you that card alteration is a big issue; that has nothing to do with supporting someone who offends at every opportunity. And now Barry's motives are challenged? Dude, what is wrong with you? Barry is a decent, honest man -- why on earth are you challenging his integrity? Your attacks on Leon are laughable as well. He is a fair guy. Why do you automatically assume that anyone who disagrees with you has some ulterior motive? Can't they just disagree with you because they disagree with you? And I begged out of the dinner for one simple reason that I had wanted to keep private so as not to embarrass you -- I just couldn't imagine wasting any time being in the same room with you. I am not saying this as an insult, just telling you the truth. I had wanted to come to that meeting but your presence there outweighed my desire to be there. It was a simple equation, really.<br /><br />
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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Jeff,<br /><br />Why constant personal attacks and misrepresenting what I say?<br /><br />I never saw you as supportive--must have missed it.<br /><br />Barry is a decent honest man--he just wants the grading companies to deal with hit--he said as much in the meeting if you would have bothered to come.<br /><br />Leon I am sure is a nice guy too--if moderators are encouraged to pile on then he is well within his job description--I just thought moderators should be impartial. <br /><br />Now that we established that we don't like each other and you have attempted to insult me every way you can it is nice to hear that you agree.<br /><br />If you have any ideas that are constructive please share them or pass them along.
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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Dave the Dunce,<br /><br />Fine --you keep attacking me I will keep responding.
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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Jim- I do agree with you wholeheartedly on one point:<br /><br />My hobby relationships, and the friendships I built, are very important to me. Why shouldn't they be? Why would I want to be disliked by people? I try to find a balance between doing what's right, and at the same time not ruffling anyone's feathers. Can you blame me?
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Posted By: <b>Dave</b><p>I told you last night that I was in no mood to play the lip flapping game with you...a comment that had nothing in it "attacking" you, a comment that is as nuetral as can be....and what do YOU do? YOU come back with your typical smartass unfunny dribble. YOUR the one that keeps this up. YOUR the one that acts like a child. YOUR the one that should find somewhere else to piss people off. Maybe a "Mommy's chat board". They tend to like to talk about thier toddlers on those sites. You'd fit right in.
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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Barry,<br /><br />No I don't blame you at all--you are a nice guy. I was just saying you were not an agent for change and your view was we have to depend on the dealers to get things right.<br /><br />Dave the Dunce with yet another creative attack-ha ha.
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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>"I exposed T206 for the fool he is--time to move on."<br /><br />The only person exposed for who he really is on this thread is you, Jim. <br />
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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Jim- I certainly feel that I would not be the appropriate choice to lead a group such as the one you tried to form. As a dealer, I believe there would even be a conflict of interest. However, I share your desire to see that hobby business is conducted ethically.<br /><br />But I will also say I truly dislike all the rancor that evolves from your posts. I wish you could take a deep breath, and then take a step back. That everyone has become so agitated over this, now going into a third day, is an unfortunate developement.
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Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>Barry is such a calm voice of reason... truly. He managed to say all of that without calling anyone a fool. I hope the 3rd day is the last.
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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Barry,<br /><br />I am only responding. You are a kind reasonable man. When these three or four attackers stop so will I.<br /><br />Meanwhile, T206 after promising to stop attacking does so again.
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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Jim, he promised to stop attacking you -- and then you attacked him! And wouldn't you know it, that's what started this again -- and you take the victim's role again! Are you that dense? You can't be.
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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Wrong again Jeff--I could care less about T206s attacks but I will respond when he makes them--just like I could care less about your last 7-8 personal attacks yet you continue to make them.
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Posted By: <b>Jeff Lichtman</b><p>Jim, you deeply care what everyone out here thinks of you. Which is why you constantly respond and claim that you are so unfairly persecuted. Self esteem issues are at the very heart of your anti-social behavior. Probably a very strict _____ as well. I hope you treat your _____ nicer than you were treated.<br /><br />
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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Jeff,<br /><br />Ninth personal attack in a row--you really have some serious issues.
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Posted By: <b>Joann</b><p>I must have missed the great 2007 "T206Collector Fool Expose". I don't see anything that has exposed him as being a fool. Quite the contrary, in fact.<br /><br />Joann <br /><br />
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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>If you don't quit saying the BS concerning me insulting you I will start. I have tried not to say how I really feel and my tongue is hurting. I just wrote a very nice paragraph but didn't post it. Please heed my advice....and/or show me where I have attacked you in the last month....I only use the phrase "armpit collector" and will continue too....
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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Leon,<br /><br />You can join the fun. When I have a few hours I will review past threads on this and point them out to you.<br /><br />I thought the mods role was to be unbiased but if not my error.<br /><br />Jim
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Posted By: <b>Dave</b><p>The mod's role is to be unbiased. But at what point with your constant jabs at him is he to remain that way? Quit being the arrogant piece of doggy doo you are Cranbarry. I'm starting to wonder if your really a 12 year old kid that gets on here and just finds it amusing to screw with adults. Time for school yet?
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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Dave the Dunce strikes again. If nothing else Dave I have a name for you every time you strike with a personal attack.
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Posted By: <b>Dave</b><p>How in the hell can you honestly think your the one here without a problem? I've never seen a single person on this board get so many different malcontent conversations going with so many different people as you. It's also interesting to note that most the people you argue with don't ever seem to get into confrontations with anyone else...other than you. I think if I was posting on a board and had ten different people that were bitching back and forth with me, I'd just stop. Common sense would say anybody would. Cranbutt, you lack common sense. There is the understatement of the day.<br /><br /><br />Now for your "Dave the dunce strike again" comment.
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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>"Meanwhile, T206 after promising to stop attacking does so again."<br /><br />First of all, I said I would try to stop posting since I believed my points had been most persuasively made and you had absolutely lost all credibility. I certainly never said I would not respond to being called a "fool". As Jeff said, did you really think if you called me a "fool" that I would not respond?<br /><br />I would now like to vote that Jim be removed from the island. Even if he is not entirely to blame for his caustic conversations, it is clear that, for better or worse, he is a disruptive force on this Board. I am constantly having to rewrite my posts to keep from sinking to grotesque name calling and screaming text. His posts always devolve into this and the problems are far outweighed by what has now become a very limited contribution. Indeed, I believe Jim has shared everything he has to share about vintage baseball cards and now having lost his crusade to clean up the hobby, will continue to fret and moan about that until he or someone else goes too far.<br /><br /><br /><br />
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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>T206,<br /><br />You go on and on and on attacking--at some point I have to respond.
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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I don't see banning anyone for anything done yet. I will not let this kind of stuff spill over into other threads though. If anyone becomes too divisive, and it permeates other threads, I will take action. No one, except the 11 yr old, is banned from the board (except absolute trolls and I don't know who they are)....and the age issue is really a Net54 rule as it says you need to be 13 to participate.
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Posted By: <b>Frank Wakefield</b><p>Mod's role is self-defined. If he chooses some middle ground, or somewhere else, fine. If a participant doesn't care for the Mod's practices, the participant can move elsewhere.<br /><br />Seems to me Leon is patient, shows self-restraint, tolerates some of our whining... he's an honest, forthright guy. Knows a right smart about ball cards. <br /><br />He does a better job with this mess than I would. But that isn't much of a benchmark. <br /><br />Frank.
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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>...Leon, but I do think that Board removal is warranted in this case. It is plainly not just this one thread.
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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>T20-6,<br /><br />Still mad about those altered mid-grade cards, huh?
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Posted By: <b>T206Collector</b><p>...still wetting the bed?
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Posted By: <b>Dave</b><p>maybe it's time to try your luck on the beckett board?
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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Jeff,<br /><br />Thank you for removing the two words about my family--you can obviously tell what they are--you should remove the whole post.<br /><br />I hope we have not gotten to the point where attacks on a person's family are fair game.
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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>T206,<br /><br />If you can't win the argument then turn to personal insults--the pattern is clear.
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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Thanks Frank...I appreciate the kind words. It is not as easy as one would think sometimes in order to keep a balance. I know one of my faults is letting everyone say almost anything they want to. It's something I feel strongly about.<br /><br />T206- I monitor things very closely....I promise I will not let too much of this spill over into other threads. I am sorry if I go overboard on "not" banning folks. It's just the way I am.....I read stuff all the time about how bad this board is and how it's gone down hill.......It hurts a little but I take it in stride. I can't please everyone.....so I just stick to my guns, unless I see something that makes me change my mind, and move forward. I can always be emailed of called on my cell to talk about anything. I love the hobby and still enjoy moderating, even though maybe I should be called an "opinionator" as Josh Leland told me a few years ago....My cell # is 214-282-4943....take care
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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Dave the Dunce,<br /><br />Even you could meet the average quality of post on Beckett--go get em.
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Posted By: <b>Dave</b><p>You don't even come close to responding to what anyone says about you. That is what is so ridicilious.
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Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Dave the Dunce continuing to spew his garbage.
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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Let's get back to talking about cards and the hobby....two things I still love. I will say that if you don't come to Net54 to share your passion for the hobby and the cards, and to make friendships within the hobby, concerning pre-war baseball cards, then you should go someone else. This thread has gone on long enough (probably too long, as my usual non-censoring ways make me let stuff go)...kind regards
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