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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>I am coming to agreement with my good friends Tom Boblitt and Barry. It's very interesting to see what others think about this subject. There are really good points on both sides (pro and anti war). If you don't see that then you are somewhat closed minded, imo. I gave my very long winded (about 2 sentences) opinion about 150 posts ago. I was for it and now I am becoming against it, or at least against our troops getting killed in a no win situation. Something has to be done I just don't know how/what. Obviously no one has figured that out yet. One thing I will say is that if you think Bush enjoys what is going on you are dead wrong. Does anyone in their right mind think that he likes facing the thousands of families who have had someone give the ultimate sacfrifice for our freedom? That has to be horrible. Let's let this thread go a few more hours and lock it down. As with anything I think moderation is a good thing. Also, if anyone has to get in one more opinion, after locked, they can always email me and we can chat about it. I want to let everyone speak their mind but also do want to get back to our little gems pretty quickly. After all that is what this board is for. Please pray our troops will be safe too. Take care and Happy New Year....

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Posted By: <b>Peter_Spaeth</b><p>Noone has suggested he "enjoys" this or has even questioned his good intentions. What has been questioned is his strategic and political judgment -- doesn't it say something to you hawkish folks when even James Baker seriously questions that judgment? In all the rhetoric I have yet to hear a plan for how we can "win" this conflict, or how such a "win" is going to put an end to terrorism. Indeed, one might think the presence of the American military in Iraq is a useful recruiting tool for Al Qaeda.

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Posted By: <b>Brian</b><p>Paul,<br /><br />I am still waiting to hear the "real reason" we are in Iraq. Going there does not give you an excuse to make veiled comments about Israel "goading" the US into this war, which is what I think you are doing. I am beginning to hear this scapegoating more often, and it makes me sick. We are there because your president (I did not elect him) wanted to avenge his daddy's attempted assassination, to make Halliburton rich, etc. <br /><br />Nor is it absurd to compare this conflict with Vietnam. In both cases it was (or became) a baseless desire to "democratize" another nation. Yesterday the reds, today someone else. Getting Saddam out of power was one thing--good riddance is right--but that was several years ago, and it's time to get the hell out. The November elections were a mandate to do so, and most people (at least most that still have functioning brains) in this country agree. Let's see if the newly elected congress has the balls to do it. Face it, it was, and is, a mistake--there were not WMDs, no matter how you spin it (oh, yes, I forgot the metal tubes that were supposed to launch missiles at us and turned out to be anything but weapons). However, there were other countries definitely making REAL weapons (remember the "axis of evil"?) when we invaded, and they are further along now because of this moronic decision. Any half-wit in the administration knew that back when we invaded. Israel provided much of that intelligence, I believe. So be careful who you scapegoat.<br /><br />We are closer to WWIII now than before because the president went after the wrong enemy.<br />Brian

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Posted By: <b>leon</b><p>Peter- No doubt hindsight is 20/20. I doubt seriously that if Bush knew what he knows today he would do it the same way. I think he did what he thought was best, as you have said, and it didn't/hasn't worked. If our goal is to protect our country maybe we could pull out from over there, in a structured way, and use those resources to protect our own shores better? We could also still support our allies (Israel etc..) with those same resources. Fighting in the streets over there isn't working. regards

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Leon- there are many things I could wish for in 2007, but if I could pick one that related to this thread it is that there could be a lot more tolerance of other people's opinions. There are clearly two sharply divided sides, and it would be productive if everyone stopped being so close minded and realize none of us has worked out the world's problems. We all have spent some time thinking about these issues. We live in very dangerous times and are all aware another 9/11 is very likely to happen here one day. But nobody on this board, myself included, has THE ANSWER. We are merely expressing personal opinions, but too many of us are pigheaded and believe that only MY solution is the right one, and to hell with everybody else. If we could all make a resolution, let's agree that the Democrats are not the cause of all our problems, the Republicans are not the cause, and it's not a black and white world of liberals against conservatives. This is the small-minded thinking that is slowly destroying the fabric of this country. How about we all agree that the other guy may actually have something worthwhile to say, and it's worth listening? I've been watching this thread closely and you know what- we are all as clueless as the next guy. Let's stop pretending any single one of us has it all worked out. Thank you, and let's have a happy and healthy 2007! Regards, Barry

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Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>Barry is correct. This is why talking about politics is a waste of time, other than to pass the time at cocktail parties.<br /><br />Sad to say, but neither side is "right," or should I say, "correct." If ~50% of the country doesn't believe a certain viewpoint, it suggests that that viewpoint is flawed in some fashion. If Dems., Libertarians, Greens, etc. compose 50% of more of the population, they're not wrong. Nobody can say with a straight face that this many people (many of whom are very intelligent), are "wrong," simply because they haven't been in "power." Sometimes I do think an IQ test should be a prerequisite to voting.<br /><br />The biggest problem I have is the condascending attitude the current administration has, as does many of its followers. The "if you don't like it, go to Canada" viewpoint is tired. Just because the current admin. and less than 50% of the nation believes this campaign is good, doesn't make it good. We all need to resepct each other's opinions (GOP and Dem.) and work towards a common good. Blaming each other and shoving each other's doctrines down our throats is the reason we're in this mess in the first place and why there are millions in our own country who are suffering, with no way out. <br /><br />Let's have some compassion for each other and those less fortunate, starting on our own soil. This won't make us "bleeding heart pussies."

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Posted By: <b>Peter_Spaeth</b><p>Cobby, Dems and Republicans did work together and came up with the Baker-Hamilton report, but so far the Administration has essentially dismissed it as they know better.

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Posted By: <b>Cobby33</b><p>I suppose we haven't really learned anything from the report compiled by the Joint Inquiry into Intelligence Community, other than, don't carry shampoo on airplanes.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Hey, I've got opinions about everything and I too am totally fed up with our administration. But I also realize I'm just a hack who sells baseball cards and reads the NY Times every morning, so why should I delude myself into thinking I have the answer to all the world's problems? I don't, and it would probably be a good idea if they didn't elect me president, because I would f*** things up even worse. That's why I am willing to listen to what other people have to say, because a lot of people on this board are a lot smarter than I am. I might strongly disagree with an opinion, but no harm with that. It wouldn't be a bad idea if others were willing to listen, too.

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Posted By: <b>AP</b><p>I fail to see what the point of this statement is: There were no Weapons of Mass Destruction. We may not have found any, but they certainly were there at one time.<br /><br />They never found Jack the Ripper but those women are still dead. <br /><br />Also - what's everybody so worried about? God's in sovereign control of everything.

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Posted By: <b>Brian</b><p>Barry, I sincerely doubt that you would f*&^%! things up worse......<br />I propose putting Barry on the ballot for the next Presidential election.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>Fine- put me on the ballot for the Lunatic Party.

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Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>This whole two sides to this particular argument thing......<br /><br />I understand one side.<br /><br />A. This is going horribly, too much death and scarring, too much hate being fostered, has not achieved any desired goals, time to get out and prepare a new strategy for targeting Al Qaeda while perhaps rebuilding a shattered image worldwide.<br /><br />B. ?<br /><br /><br />What could be a measurable reason for remaining? Are we more likely to ferret out Al Qaeda by staying on the ground? How is that going for us and why is it likely to change? Will they all of a sudden start wearing unique patterned scarves or hoods for us to more easily target them?<br />Or will the Iraqi people, if delivered to a solution that involves an agreement to stop killing eachother and living under some sort of agreed upon political and social system, begin to forgive us Americans for any pains we forced them to go through? Seriously? Will they teach love and understanding, or at the very least respect for Western culture in their schools and homes...?<br />I'm just at a complete loss as to what we can deliver to them whilst being there, that we could not support financially, with infrastructure, with all other means from outside the country?<br /><br />This country of extraordinary divisions - perhaps even larger than our own (see AP's and Ted's warm and fuzzy feelings to half the population of this country), will probably need to come to agreement, tear itself up again, come to agreement, tear itself up again, many times before it can reach any long lasting peace. That's a road for them to take, and believe in, NOT OURS!!!<br /><br />Daniel

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Posted By: <b>Cat</b><p>Barry/Leon:<br /><br />You both wrote something to the effect "at least listen and be tolerant of other's opinions." I couldn't agree more. The only thing I really know is that "I don't know." My only other post on this topic, at least my only other serious post, stated. "there are no crystal balls with these issues." Many of our Congressmen (all three of my congress"men" are females oddly enough) have positions based on ability to get elected/reelected and that's not trustworthy to me. Many Republicans ran from Bush like maniacs during election time, I believe, because Bush was getting hammered in the polls. We let polls frame our political landscape in this country (both parties). We let the uninformed determine policy to a large extent.<br /><br />Bush and his cabinet have made mistakes... a lot of mistakes. Most of the mistakes, I believe, have been how they have handled this situation publicly. Attempting to get some stability in the Middle East is the right move for our safety. I don't think doing nothing is an option any longer. I don't think that our intelligence was bad in regards to Iraq. Like someone else said perhaps we didn't find the warheads that we thought we would, but Iraq was the correct starting point for change...maybe we won't get there.<br /><br />I learned at a young age that if you passively let somone take your lunch money every morning on the way to school the only predictable event is that you will have you lunch money stolen each morning. On the other hand if you fight back, you change the outcome. You don't always have to win the fight, you just have to bloody a few noses. Similarly, if we do nothing on a worldwide basis, expect to have our freedom and safety (and lives) slowly taken from us. Based on what happened to Hussein, how do you think other lunatic leaders will act in the future? Do you think our administration has altered future actions by some of these maniacs? Hell Yeah!!! We have cut down our war of terrorism exponentially. Now, to a significant extent, we "just" have to worry about the less organized (and less funded) Bin Laden type of terrorist. That's a big "just" unfortunately. I believe our actions in Iraq have shown the rest of the world that we will not stand passively. This will, I believe, have a very limiting effect for funding of terror warfare against the US. No world leader wants to end up like Hussein.<br /><br /><br />My last post on this thread. I REALLY am on this board to have fun.

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Posted By: <b>AParks</b><p>For those of you keeping score at home, here's how to oppose the war without sounding like you oppose the war - say things like "Bush never had a good plan for the invasion" - taken straight from the How to Sound Like a Liberal handbook.<br /><br />Daniel,<br /><br />Be careful judging what's in my heart with respect to liberals and Muslims. You can't know that and you never will.

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Posted By: <b>barrysloate</b><p>You can't really predict how terrroists will react to Hussein's death, because terrorism by definition is random and unpredictable. But the world is a dangerous place and not to harp on the issue, America would be a lot better place if we weren't so divided. I fully believe we should find a way out of Iraq; however, I know others disagree and I would like to hear what those people have to say. You know what- I might actually learn something I didn't know before.

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Posted By: <b>Brett</b><p>Just because the Americans never found any WMD's, it doesn't mean that Iraq doesn't have them...

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Posted By: <b>E, Daniel</b><p>Doesn't mean she's not a bus.<br /><br />

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Posted By: <b>paulstratton</b><p>Brian, <br /><br />I will gladly discuss this with you via email if you like. I respect your opinions, although I don't necessarily agree with them. I was just giving mine. <br /><br />Has this been handled well. No. Was it the "right" thing to do? We'll never come to an agreement on that. Are we there for oil? Yes. Did Bush invent the automobile? No. Would this country fall into a deep depression if gas went up to say $5.00 a gallon? Yes. There is a worldwide competition for resources going on and unfortunately we are the one country needs them the most. Do you drive an SUV? Do you live in the suburbs? None of that would be possible if gas wasn't "cheap". It is what it is as they say.