Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Judge Dred (Fred)</b><p>Gil,<br /><br />Bonds was a good hitter before the juice. I don't think that great players in their mid-30s "all of a sudden" have an epiphany of sorts and figure out how to hit a baseball harder. He already had the basic skills (obviously above average). Time is the true test of a ball player. Look at the great ones with longevity (I'm not saying every player) the one thing that they had was consistency. Bonds had consistency at a great level then all of a sudden he so vastly improved that the level of play was immeasurable amongst his peers or players from the past. That improvement along with his absolutely incredible growth in MUSCLE MASS can have a few conclusions. The exclusion of steroid or growth hormones from that conclusion would be pretty naive.<br /><br />Add to this his admission to using the clear and cream (although he indicates he didn't know what they really were.... that's really naive) would help come to the right conclusion. <br /><br />I can't say it enough. Bonds has been really fun to watch these past five years. He fills the seats because fans like to see his power output and watch his every at bat because the potential for something big to happen is always there.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>identify7</b><p>Judge: <br /><br />After 10 years in baseball and a composite ERA of about 3.00; Wilhelm went on a streak in which he was under a 2.00 Era for esentially every season. This streak began when he was 39 years old, and culminated with his lowest ERA (1.31) at age 44. He continued this until he was 48, at which point he went 0-1 with a 2.70 ERA. When, at 49, he had another losing (0-1) season, he hung up his spikes - or maybe his knuckles.<br /><br />My only point here is that Bond's record does not prove guilt. Please do not interpret my statements as inferring that I believe that Bonds is not guilty.<br /><br />I don't care. I applaud all cheating. John McGraw (and others) in the 1890s were great!<br /><br />Edited to add: Heck, I even condone base stealing! Actually, I like it.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p><I>Add to this his admission to using the clear and cream (although he indicates he didn't know what they really were.... that's really naive) would help come to the right conclusion.</I><br /><br />Please don't continue the falsehood that Bonds says he took the clear and cream. I already posted his exact testimony. I put a clear substance in my hair and cream on my skin. This does not mean that I took the steroids in question. <br /><br />Just goes to prove that people are going to believe whatever they want to, regardless of the facts. This doesn't mean that I don't think Bonds took steroids, I just hate it when people keep perpetuating a lie when it's obviously wrong.<br /><br />Jay<br /><br />I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>identify7</b><p>This is the Show. It is only baseball, you know - entertainment.<br />And worse - the collection of cards of the Star actors.<br /><br />Many really try, especially the producers. But it is the actors who are the best.<br /><br />It is only cards (of entertainers). Now Sitting Bull was not an entertainer, in the beginning. Nor were War figures and machinery really entertaining. Pirates were not either, until Hollywood decided to romanticize swashbuckling types. But Dudes, Ladys with fat legs, Birds etc. Burdick seemed to like 'em best.<br /><br />Relax and enjoy the show.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>B.C.Daniels</b><p>I have had it twice in 14 years via doctor stephen turner who has performed this procedure on Bonds and many of the oakland Athletics. The above information concerning it is completely incorrect.<br /><br />On another note,I had shoulder surgery on January 31st of 2005 via doctor arthur ting............the same doctor who on the very same day in the very same facility operated on Barry's knee! Barry's skull is gigantic! Your skull does not grow without enhancement.I joked with a couple of surgeons in the recovery room about it.<br />

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Judge Dred (Fred)</b><p>Jay,<br /><br />Did you happen to see one of the earlier posts that predicted that this thread would pass 150 posts and to watch Jay get riled up and come to Bonds defense and watch Fred try to get his goat by berating Bonds. Ok, just kidding. As much as I do not like Bonds as a person I sure as heck like to watch him hit. Without a doubt he's been one of the most exciting players to come to bat in the past 5 years or so. I know you don't take the stuff personally and that you're just trying to see Barry get a fair shake. NOW ADMIT IT, YOU THINK BONDS HAS TAKEN ROIDS!!! Just kidding....

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>identify7</b><p>I admit it.<br />====AND====<br />I was just kidding.<br />BASEBALL IS REAL.<br /><br />

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Anson</b><p>Heilmann got better after 25ish or so but dropped off considerably and retired shortly after 35. Also, his power numbers did not significantly increase over time. His numbers were pretty consistent. <br /><br />In case any one is curious about LASIK (with a K), here's the FDA site <br /><br /><a href="http://www.fda.gov/cdrh/lasik/" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.fda.gov/cdrh/lasik/</a><br /><br />As you can see, they are corrective in the place of glasses and contacts. You can correct myopia, hyperopia, astigmatism, etc.<br /><br />

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>B.C.Daniels</b><p>you learn a lot more about life from experience as opposed to googling everything. And of course accountability which bears out witnesses of truth over lies and self deception. You'll see what I mean. They will come to you <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br /><a href="http://www.texaslasik.net/Lasic.asp" target="_new" rel="nofollow"><a href="http://www.texaslasik.net/Lasic.asp</a" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://www.texaslasik.net/Lasic.asp</a</a>><br /><br />googling is easy but then I only had the procedure twice as stated above<br /><br /><br />lasic eye surgery tips<br />Lasik Eye Surgery - Know the Facts. Many people rely on glasses and contacts to correct their vision, but some find these methods inconvenient, ...<br />www.bbbhou.org/health/health_lasik.html - 9k - Cached - Similar pages<br /><br />Lasic Eye Surgery - Find Lasic Surgeon<br />Lasic surgery is lifelong commitment that you should take seriously. Research your LASIC surgeon carefully by read their articles and their web sites.<br />www.texaslasik.net/Lasic.asp - 11k - Cached - Similar pages<br /><br />Whitten Laser: A full service lasic vision correction in Virginia ...<br />Provides laser eye surgery and lasik procedures in Maryland, Virginia and Washington DC.<br />www.whittenlasereye.com/ - 4k - Cached - Similar pages

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Anson</b><p>Looks like we're falling too far off topic now. We might want to steer things back to vintage cards again. <br /><br />I'm sure the rest of the board isn't interested in how easy it is to find misspellings on internet sites. Keratomileusis doesn't start with a "C".

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Here's an interesting article on the newest book about Bonds.<br /><br />Can't blame Barry for jealousy<br />By Jason Whitlock<br />Special to ESPN.com Page 2<br /><br />You can write and say whatever you want about Barry Bonds now. He's the new O.J. Simpson, on trial for threatening to murder the legacies of Babe Ruth and Hank Aaron.<br /><br />Even though it certainly appears Barry juiced on his way to 700 home runs, it doesn't seem fair that he's receiving the same treatment as The Juice.<br /><br /> <br />But, make no mistake, with Barry on the brink of surpassing Ruth, it's time for sportswriters to cash in and crucify Barry for money. Geraldo Rivera must be livid he's a poor writer. Barry-bashing in print will get you the lead on "SportsCenter" and put you on the cover of Sports Illustrated and in ESPN The Magazine.<br /><br />Two San Francisco sportswriters proved beyond a shadow of a publisher's doubt that Bonds ingested steroids and human growth hormone throughout the late '90s and early in the new millennium. Now, another sports scribe is unveiling his Barry book, and it details the motivation for Barry's love of the juice.<br /><br />Can you believe this? Barry Bonds used steroids because muscle-bound bombers Mark McGwire and Sammy Sosa "saved baseball" by stroking 136 combined homers during a magical 1998 duel.<br /><br />Not only is Barry a cheat, a boorish ass, a womanizer and a tax evader, he's also capable of being jealous.<br /><br />Yep, according to writer Jeff Pearlman, Barry told Ken Griffey Jr. and several other unnamed dinner companions that he was joining the baseball arms race and was willing to stick needles in his rear end to do it.<br /><br />Pearlman, who was not at the alleged dinner as far as we know, quoted Barry's message to Griffey and Co. verbatim:<br /><br />"You know what? I had a helluva season last year, and nobody gave a crap. Nobody. As much as I've complained about McGwire and Canseco and all of the bull with steroids, I'm tired of fighting it. I turn 35 this year. I've got three or four good seasons left, and I wanna get paid. I'm just gonna start using some hard-core stuff, and hopefully it won't hurt my body. Then I'll get out of the game and be done with it."<br /><br />Wow. Someone has a photographic memory, or took very detailed notes of a 1998 meeting. Or maybe Pearlman has been sitting on that little nugget for seven years. Whatever the case, it doesn't matter now. You can write or say anything about Bonds. We're 99.99 percent sure he took steroids, and we're 100 percent sure we don't want him to pass Babe Ruth on the home run chart.<br /><br />Sportswriters and broadcasters want this so bad that some of them are pushing for Bud Selig to suspend Bonds this season. Not only did Bonds cheat -- just like 75 percent of the players, according to Ken Caminiti, a far more credible source than uninvolved sportswriters -- but he was driven by jealousy.<br /><br />The latter crime is what cracks me up about the latest attack on Bonds.<br /><br />People are genuinely upset that Bonds grew frustrated with baseball's unwillingness to address the steroid issue and sportswriters' celebration of McGwire's chemically enhanced "magical season" and basically said, "If I can't beat 'em, I might as well join 'em."<br /><br />If McGwire, Sosa, money-hungry owners and spineless, jersey-chasing, look-the-other-way, hypocritical baseball writers caused Bonds to use steroids, then I feel sorry for Bonds.<br /><br />He's a victim in all of this, no different than the kids who turn to steroids because they want to be just like Barry Bonds.<br /><br />During the McGwire-Sosa farce, the media sent the clear message that using steroids was OK. I'll quote Pearlman's book to make my point. Pearlman quoted Jay Canizaro, one of Bonds' teammates in 1999, saying this about Bonds:<br /><br /> <br />"Hell, he took off his shirt the first day and his back just looked like a mountain of acne. Anybody who had any kind of intelligence or street smarts about them knew Barry was using some serious stuff."<br /><br />And I'm supposed to believe the same thing couldn't be said about McGwire?<br /><br />Balls were flying out of parks at a record clip, players' biceps and shoulders were expanding at a record clip, and all we heard were a bunch of smoke-screen stories about juiced baseballs and an andro bottle in McGwire's locker.<br /><br />Gimme a break.<br /><br />The excerpt from Pearlman's book humanizes Bonds. He's driven by the same emotions as the rest of us. Jealousy is a vice we all carry. It's great that Ken Griffey Jr. didn't succumb to his feelings of jealousy. More power to him.<br /><br />But there are reasons we establish laws and rules. It's because most of us can't control ourselves without them. If police never handed out speeding tickets, most of us would ignore the signs and drive as fast as we wanted. If there were no penalties for defaulting on a debt, many of us would not pay our bills.<br /><br />Bonds watched his peers get rewarded for apparently cheating. The whole country saluted McGwire. If baseball purists, the seamheads who allegedly care about the game, called BS on McGwire and Sosa and celebrated Bonds' truly astonishing 400/400 feat, Bonds likely wouldn't be nipping at Ruth's heels today.<br /><br />But we didn't do that. No one imagined Bonds' challenging Ruth's legacy as the greatest slugger of all time. So now Bonds must be vilified, disgraced and, if we're lucky, run out of baseball. He can't do what Jason Giambi and almost every steroid cheat has done.<br /><br />Why can't he?<br /><br><br>I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Scott Gross</b><p><img src="http://www.network54.com/Realm/tmp/1142451240.GIF">

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>B.C.Daniels</b><p>have the accountable person contact me today! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>identify7</b><p>It seems to me that opening the Hall of Blame would have much more interesting members than the HOF ever will.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>--<br /> <br /><br />

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>dd</b><p>A couple of duck hunters from my area were once busted for killing over the limit. They killed over 100 ducks in one hunt over a baited pond. The game wardens who busted them had film and photos of the hunters as they exceeded the limit.<br /><br />In court the hunters were prosecuted. After the judge passed sentence, he informed the game wardens(in attendence for the proceedings)who made the citations that they too would be prosecuted for their role. The judge's claim was that the law of limits exist to protect a species and a sport, not to fund coffers, and that the game wardens failed to uphold law.....they should have intervened sooner.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>PC, you obviously missed the point. If the media had been as persisant about Mac's andro and looked for other drug use as they have been with Bonds, you probably wouldn't have had the Bonds situation arise. Instead, everyone was in love with Mac and turned a blind eye to what everyone knew he was doing. God forbid the media should go after a beloved white guy. You don't see any outrage over Mac's single seaon mark, but everyone is outraged about Bonds' hitting 70? I'll say it because few will, race and hated. People hate Bonds and the fact that he is Black helps ease that hate. Mac is white was beleoved until his joke of an appearance before congress. How outraged would people be if Mac had stayed healthy and was chasing these very same numbers? I doubt you would see anywhere near the outrage scrutiny.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>DJ</b><p>As noted 100 threads ago, this thread will reach the record and I honestly think that this thread should be tested for steroids. It's not fair to the other threads that aren't as big and I think Adam J's thread of "all low grade cards are worthless" was done cleanly. <br /><br />If Mark McGwire was Barry Bonds right now, the world wouldn't hate him as much, but they would still hate him. This based on his personality. <br /><br />I don't believe skin color has anything to do with it and if you think so, it's the easy argument and you are wrong. It's about ethics. <br /><br />If there was a picture of Barry Bonds injecting himself, there would still be some of you that would feel the photo was doctored and when Bonds said it was his insulin shot for his Diabetes, many would believe that too. <br /><br />McGwire was never accused of doing steroids while he was playing, but andro wasn't banned or illegal and no one really knew anything about it at the time. You could buy it at the mall. Can't buy steroids in the mall. <br /><br />When Mac refused to answer questions at the hearing about steroid use, he came across rather poorly and a lot of hate has been thrown in his direction which was once love. People started to question him and by the time they could "further" look into the affair, he was gone and now living in seclusion and answering nothing while his torso shrinks. <br /><br />Does Palmeiro not have a job because of his nationality? No, because he is a finger pointing liar. Nobody likes being lied too. <br /><br />Bonds is hated because there is so much proof that links him to steroids. HIS TRAINER AND FRIEND DISTRIBUTED STEROIDS! He is a bastard of a human being that goes out of his way to be anti-social. People hate the fact that he blames everyone but himself for being hated. He is hated because a large majority of the world feel that his stats are tainted and it is truly disrespecting the achivements of The Bambino and Hammerin Hank. <br /><br />If McGwire(or Todd Helton or Craig Biggio or Chad Curtis) was about to reach that level and there was this much questioning in the air about the honesty of the achievement, there would no doubt be hate in their direction as well. McGwire is just another #500 home run hitter (like his unemployed pals from 1998 to current), not someone who came close to the records that matter. <br /><br />DJ

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>If you honestly believe that the color of Bonds skin has absolutely nothing to do with this, then you live a different world than I do and would love to live there. Racism isn't as bad or obvious as it was in the 50s, but it's still there and much more subtle today.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Anonymous</b><p>--

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Judge Dred (Fred)</b><p>Timing!!!<br /><br />There weren't a lot of people hooting and hollaring about Bonds being on steroids when he was approaching 70 HRs. A lot of this started after the hearing (Palmiero and his finger pointing, etc) on steroids. <br /><br />Bonds has been a jackass for a lot longer than that. He's always felt that he has been discriminated against. I don't recall people crying "cheater" or "juicer" during that run at the season record. Most of this is being brought out NOW. <br /><br />I think people would have had an easier time just shaking their heads in disgust if he just said "yeah, I juiced - so what". The funny part is that when people didn't suspect it (or not as many people suspected it) he was a baseball superhero. Now that the truth is eeking out, the general (naive) public is a bit disgusted at the fact that he had a chance to just admit it and move on but he didn't take that road. Instead he seems to have denied it all. <br /><br />Black or white doesn't really matter here. Yes, there are some people that dislike him because he's black but I would like to believe (and not naively) that they are in the minority. I don't like Bonds because he's a horses ass not because he's black. Hell, he's going to break a record that belongs to Hank Aaron (did we forget he's black). I think that people are viewing the record as something that should be broken by someone that has played the game at a high level for their entire career, not by someone that boosted the numbers by turning themselves into a lab rat.<br /><br />If Barry Bonds would have just admitted to his use of performance enhancers and if he had the personality of someone that is liked (for the most part) by the majority of fans then he probably wouldn't be taking such a pounding on this issue. When I say someone that is liked I mean someone with a Tony Gwynn or Ozzie Smith or Albert Pujols type of personality.<br /><br />I guess I'm a little bit on the hypocritic side because I really liked to watch him hit these past 5 years. Even though I don't like Bonds I sure like the dimension he has added to the game.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Anson</b><p>Maybe I'm wrong, but many of us don't want to see any steroid user pass Hank Aaron (an African American last time I checked). <br /><br />Racism still exists to some extent but I don't believe it's coming into play with the case of Bonds. He has, from the start, handled himself in a manner that attracts negative attention. <br /><br />Removing race out of the mix, I would be upset to see any person pass Aaron unless they did it without the enhancement of illegal substances. I don't care if it's McGwire, Bonds, Sosa, Manny, it just isn't right. While I may have slightly more respect for McGwire (mainly for how he's handled himself off the field), I still consider him a cheat and his numbers tainted. The HR chase of 98' served as a way to save baseball. However, in retrospect, I feel duped that both of the involved parties probably did it unfairly. <br /><br />

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>DJ</b><p>Jay, what color the sky is in your world though? <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14> <br /><br />I've watched you pull from your world accusations that Clemens is on the juice and Griffey may be, comparing sharpened spikes to steroids and why eye surgery was even mentioned in an argument about steroids? What's next? <br /><br />Sure there's some racism out there and it isn't anything like it was during the times of Cobb and Robinson, but I think this whole ball of hate was created by Bonds himself.<br /><br />Didn't he testify before a grand jury that he took steroids "unknowingly"? Steroids is illegal right? How can anyone stick up for him?<br /><br />It's like what was said above...it's about timing and it's also about ethics, being deceitful, being an excrement human being and ruining baseball history more than anything. He's a #500 home run hitter, not a #700+ hitter. <br /><br />DJ

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>DJ, please, please, please, stop perpetuating a falsehood. I quoted Bonds exact testimony. Nowhere did he say he used steroids, Clear, or Cream. Go back and read that post so you can stop repeating this idiocy.<br /><br />If nothing else, this pisses me off more than anything.<br /><br />If ysomeone is going to go after Bonds, I want to see them go after every mega-star of the game to make sure they aren't juicing. Singling out Bonds because you don't want to see him break a HR record or dislike him is not a good reason to go after the guy. Why does Clemens get cut slack about showing the same physical characteristics and performance as Bonds that supposedly proves steroid use? I want to see Clemens scurinized as closely as Bonds is because he's done things at his age that no normal person should be doing. No one will do any looking into Clemens becasue he is well liked and no chasing any records that someone would be offended if he broke it.<br /><br />In all reality, I don't give a rats ass one way or the other if anyone is juicing. What I do care about is someone being singled out while other people that are just as guilty slide by.<br /><br />Jay<br /><br />I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>JimCrandell</b><p>Well I care deeply if someone is "juicing" and ruining baseball history. This is a game built on its tremendous heritage and to see classic records fall because of steroids is a tragedy.<br /><br />I would like to see the commissioner immediately suspend Bonds and his records voided--same thing for McGwire, Sosa, Palmiero and others where the evidence is indisputable.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>DJ</b><p>Jay, <br /><br />Unlike you, I care about whose cheating and whose not cheating and I guess that is why you have gotten under my skin to a certain degree. What pisses me off is when you have a person who is simply off the map in his thinking probably only looking to further the debate. And yes, I did read your threads, just basically summed it up. <br /><br />So in so is "probably" on steroids, even though I don't have proof and let's stop picking on Bonds? Blah, blah, blah. Everything points to Bonds and your trying to bring other athletes and scenario's into the conversation.I'm glad this Forum wasn't around when JFK was shot. I can only imagine. <br /><br />Sorry board. I'll let it go and move on. <br /><br />DJ

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>identify7</b><p>DJ: I enjoy a debate. Others do too. I do not find it necessary to actually believe in the position which you accept in a discussion, if the discussion is your sole objective. However, when others strongly believe in their position, I can understand that comments "off the map" as you characterize them, can fuel frustration.<br /><br />If the opposing view in this thread was limited to those who sincerely believed in Bond's innocence, we would have far, far, less contributions.<br /><br />Edited to add:<br />Unless he quits before he is washed up, it looks to me like Bonds is going to be the only 800+ HR hitter this game will see in a long time.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Ray</b><p>take a look at his rookie card. then take a look at his 2005 card. no one's head size grows 8 times as big just from working out.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Jason Duncan</b><p>I think he just drinks whole milk as opposed to 2%. You all are jumping to conclusions!

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>As was pointed out on another list I belong to, there is no absolute proof that Bonds used anything illegal. All you have is inuendo and claims from people who have their own axe to grind or are possibly saying anything to in order to save themselves jail time.<br /><br />The other thing that needs to be remembered is that there has not been a single shred of scientific proof to show that taking steroids enhances your ability hit, hit homers or do anything else that makes you a great hitter or pitcher.<br /><br />Absent these FACTS, this is all just a bunch guessing and supposition.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>identify7</b><p>' duplicate post

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Tom Boblitt</b><p>agree with many of your sentimets above, though, while I've not read the SI store or the book, I heard that he was taking HGH and that the statement was made that the HGH had improved the vision. If that's true, it would be very possible to improve the hitting. <br /><br />It'll always be a shadow hanging over him, Palmeiro, McGwire, et al. It'll be interesting to see where the BB writers put them when time comes to go to HOF. I guess Selig will be forced to investigate the Bonds situation. <br /><br />I'll always wonder if that's why McGwire dropped out so quickly. The Andro was one thing but I bet there were other skeletons in the closet.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Brian</b><p>If Bonds would just come clean, the public largely would forget/forgive him. Notice that Giambi isn't hasseled as much. While his "admission" was weak and vague -- he took his lumps and now very few people bring him up.<br /><br />I agree w/ Jay that there aren't stone-cold facts to Bonds' supposed use. That being said, many signs indicate that he improved his performance at an advanced age in a way no human before has accomplished. If it walks like a duck...<br /><br />I don't think its a leap to say that steriods directly or indirectly make a user stronger. If someone already has the ability to hit a baseball, is it unreasonable to think if they get stronger, the ball will go further? <br /><br /><br />

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>He may not be the paragon of virtue but he is unrestrained in his comments on baseball. He did an interview on HBO and was asked about hand-eye and steroids. His point was that an elite player in MLB already has spectacular hand-eye coordination and eyesight, so if you make that player stronger, he muscles deep fly balls over the fence. Rose said that he played with Aaron and Mays extensively and never saw them hit the kinds of opposite field HRs that the modern sluggers are hitting. <br /><br />One of the problems that the Bonds defenders have is that Bonds himself claims ignorance and in the process destroys himself as a defense witness. Bonds says he used stuff Anderson gave him without knowing it was anything except flaxseed oit; Anderson says the stuff was illegal performance enhancing drugs. At most, Bonds can claim that he has no knowledge, and by definition if the person who has knowledge says it was steroids, guess what, it was steroids. If you believe that Bonds has no culpability for what he puts into his body, you support Bonds. If you believe that the buck stops with Bonds' decision to take a substance, you consider his records tainted, not because he admits to the taint but because he admits he has no actual knowledge and the person who does says that the illegal drugs were used. Me, I feel that there is enough evidence from enough sources to conclude that Bonds used illegal drugs to enhance his performance in violation of the existing rules and I would not vote him into the HOF if I had a vote. I don't want his deeds glorified. I feel the same way about Rafael Palmiero and after his performance in Congress, Mark McGwire.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Selig is in a lose-lose situation with regards to investigating Bonds. If he does nothing, then he proves that is nothing more than the ineffectual leader that he is and would most likely be run out of office. If he does investigate, he has to investigate the whole scandal, not just Bonds. Opening up this investigation will mean that Selig and the powers that be have to show when they knew what and I'm willing to bet that this is not something that they want brought to light.<br /><br />No matter what Selig does, he loses and he has sealed is fate as the biggest joke of a Commissioner ever to hold office. If only Giamati hadn't died prematurely...<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Brian</b><p>Selig has put Bonds in a decent position. Any investigation would certainly highlight MLB's active indifference to steriods. Selig & crew were happy to be ignorant to the steriod issue. If the commish's office had take a tough stand against steriods 10+ years ago, it would be a helluva lot easier for them to investigate a scandal. Right now, the first finding of any investigation (regardless of player) would be that MLB was asleep at best asleep the wheel and at worst a participant.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>The player's union was an active enabler.<br /><br />Except for players who were actively complaining that there was no testing for steroids, I find the 'I did it, because others were doing it' to be a bogus argument.<br /><br />The player's union prevented steroids testing and punishment, and the union is the representatives for the player. Players vote and the union has designated player representatives from each team. Notice that the union recently allowed testing and punishment for steroids, but only after many players voiced their opinion against steriods in the game, often through their player representatives. The current testing/punishment system is greatly influenced by the players. This would also suggest that past lack of testing/punishment also influenced by the players.<br /><br />If Barry Bonds and Sammy Sosa were actively complaining to the union representatives about the use of steroids I will cut them due slack. And perhaps both were, I'm not insinuating they weren't. Someone like Bonds would carry great clout with the union and baseball in general. If they weren't complaining about to the union about steroids, they were enablers of the system not victims.<br /><br />One of the most insightful things I heard was when someone said that problem with Donald Fehr is that he thinks he's a civil rights lawyer, when he's really an entertainment lawyer. Baseball players are celebrities like movie stars and rock singers, where industry and public image is essential. Fehr did all he could to prevent encroachment on his player's civil rights, but help ruined the image of his clients and the industry that pays their big salaries.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>ChuckkieB</b><p>One piece of circumstantial evidence might be able to be explained away, perhaps even more....but there are boat loads of documentation, interviews, accounts, recorded conversations, and other damnning evidence compiled by two well respected journalists (that had absolutely no axe to grind) that implicate Bonds, that is all collectively impossible to ignore. And let's not forget Bonds STATS. I am SHOCKED that there are those here that are actually trying to defend Bonds in any way, shape, or form. I guess you are the same folks who think OJ was not guilty as well. I'm no lawyer, but I'm pretty sure that there aren't too many cases that are solved by the implicated party simply holding up his hands and saying, "I did it." It seems that there are several of you who aren't willing to point the finger at Bonds unless that happens. Don't hold your breath. There is a saying that several on this board like to use from time to time which is apropos here - If it quacks like a duck - it's a duck! <br /><br />Bud selig needs to do everything in his power to protect the integrity of the most coveted records in sports - and that means investigating Bonds AND everyone else even remotely connected to steriods. It wil be ugly for baseball in the short term, but when the dust settles, it will be worth it. Bonds is no different from Mcgwire, Sosa, or anyone else who has used steriods, and ANYONE who tets positive, has been arrested, or has been investigated by MLB and there is indisputable evidence that they did steriods, ALL of their stats need to be removed completely from the record books. Period. Selig must show some guts here, and admit baseball turned a blind eye to this problem years ago but is now willing to step up and fix it once and for all. <br />

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Judge Dred (Fred)</b><p>Post 198.....

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Judge Dred (Fred)</b><p>Post 199.....

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Judge Dred (Fred)</b><p>Finally, Post 200!!!

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Judge Dred (Fred)</b><p>Sorry about that, I just wanted to get that out of the way...<br /><br />Circumstantial evidence:<br /><br /><ul><br /><li>Bigger than Hulk Hogan ever was...<br /><li>Increased HR production (HR/AB - that number went from about 1/16 to 1/8)<br /><li>Uncontrollable personality / mood swings.... oops that one doesn't count, he's probably always been a horses ass...<br /></ul> <br /><br /><br />I'll tell it like it is though... he's certainly been a joy to watch for the past 5/6 years, more so than he ever was before that time.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Hey, no fair!!! I wanted post 200. I'm the one keeping it alive <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Chuck, there is no solid evidence in any of the books or articles. It's all hearsay and conjecture. How can you say those authors don't have an axe grind? They continue to perpetuate the lie that Bonds said he use the steroids Clear and Cream in his GJ tesitimony when that has already been proven by the transcript that is not what he said. If these guys truely had altruistic motives, then they would not continue this lie. They do so because they know it will help sell their book. You also need to remember, as someone else pointed out, you can debate a subject without believe the side that you are defending.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>I've just reached Upper Lower Class. I am now officially a babe magnet for poor chicks.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>Steroids, HGH, LSD, crack, pot, whatever. Let's see what the human body can really do <br /><br />I'm joking... <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Judge Dred (Fred)</b><p>Bonds on LSD... hmmm... that would be interesting... <br /><br />"I can fly, really, I can......" <br /><br />Edited to add the following:<br /><br />Jay, yup, you absolutely deserved to be #200!!! Sorry about that Chief! <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Robert {Bigb13}</b><p>Since when is Barry Bonds part of the vintage world? Rob

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Judge Dred (Fred)</b><p>Bonds will be "vintage" in about 50 years or so... as of now he's just a topic of discussion on the board. One of those OT threads that Leon allows every once in a while. Either that or Leon's been sleeping on the job again and we need to impeach him and rid ourselves of his dictorial ways. Only problem is that if he quit we couldn't get anyone else to do what he does for us... <br /><br />I think that the threads get started so that we can get Jay's goat and provide him with a little cardiovascular exercise... I figure his blood pressure rises everytime we beat Bonds down like this and mention that we think Bonds has taken steroids... just kidding Jay <img src="/images/happy.gif" height=14 width=14>

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Jason</b><p>As much as I hate to admit it I do agree with Jay on this subject. Bonds is just 100% pure talent and the best home run hitter of all time. I really doubt any kind of supplement whatever it is has much of an effect of how far the ball flies. The guy has an extremely disciplined eye and the quickest hands around. Put that together and you have a home run king.<br /><br />Jason

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Judge, don't worry, you will be attacked, and when you least expect it <img src="/images/wink.gif" height=14 width=14><br /><br />Jay<br><br>WOW upsidedown is MOM. Mom upsidedown is what dad wants to see.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>identify7</b><p>Bonds has neither the most HRs per at bat, per month, per game, inning, nor lifetime records. The only thing which he has achieved is most HRs/season. This is hardly the basis for a credential such as<br />"the best home run hitter of all time". Heck, he is barely a .600 slugger and .300 hitter lifetime. He would be lucky to be mentioned among the top ten sluggers.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Jason</b><p>Then you name me 10 better sluggers. I will give you Ruth......give me 9 more.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>davidcycleback</b><p>My last word(s) on the subject is the steroid era gives one greater appreceation for Ruth's and Aaron's career home run totals. Even with the steroids and monster single-seasons, Aaron's record has yet to be broken. That a modern player would require so much medical assistance and law breaking to pass Aaron's or Ruth's totals, says how great their career totals are.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Jason</b><p>Ruth, Bonds, Pujols, Aaron in that order. There are your top 4 power hitters.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Judge Dred (Fred)</b><p>I'd put Gehrig ahead of Bonds. He had five seasons with over 400 total bases and you have to figure if his life wasn't cut short he'd probably have over 600 life time homeruns. If that wasn't slugging then I don't know what is....<br /><br />Considering all stats and ignoring the fact that Bonds "might not have" (hahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha) taken steroids I would have to include him in a list of the top 10 based on his total career numbers. Those past few seasons have pushed him way up there. Holy crap, two seasons with a SA greater than .800 and another season at .799 ----- whoa, that's incredible! <br /><br /><br />

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Joe_G.</b><p><a href="http://cgi.ebay.com/Barry-Bonds-integrity_W0QQitemZ8784000459QQcategoryZ25150QQssP ageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem" target="_new" rel="nofollow">http://cgi.ebay.com/Barry-Bonds-integrity_W0QQitemZ8784000459QQcategoryZ25150QQssP ageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem</a><br /><br />Since eBay killed the auction, here is what it stated:<br /><br />-----------------------------------------------------------------<br /><br />This bottle holds all that remains of Barry Bonds integrity. Through an exhaustive search I have managed to capture and place in this bottle the remainder of his integrity. Since repeated claims of his illegal use of steroids, human growth hormones and other drug cocktails it was no easy task. After lengthy interviews with friends, sports reporters, doctors, ex misstresses and team mates past and present...I can declare this bottle contains all of what is left of his integrity. Ex team mate Jeff Kent remarked, "Gee. I am surprised that didn't fit into a much smaller bottle. Maybe something the size of a nandrolone vial."<br /><br />The successful high bidder will recieve this bottle. A Barry Bonds picture reproduction and a "faux" Barry Bonds autograph. High bidder pays all costs of shipping, handling and insurance.<br /><br />----------------------------------------------------------------<br /><br />It received over 300 hits in a matter of minutes likely due to ESPN radio's mention of it.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>That's funny. Wish I had thought of it. I'm sure we will be seeing all kinds of similar auctions now.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>WOW upsidedown is MOM. Mom upsidedown is what dad wants to see.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>identify7</b><p>I dunno Jason, do you really think Bonds has accomplished much? I think that he may, but time will tell. I remember Mantle sacrificing his career .300 BA in his quest to surpass Foxx in total HRs. What a futile effort! Mantle was no where near the slugger that the Beast was, unless Foxx had to hit lefty; and even then I am not sure. I wonder whether Bonds will make a similar sacrifice in his yet unidentified quests. He is a borderline .300 hitter now, and he just recently has been knocking on the door of the .600 sluggers club.<br /><br />So far, Greenberg, Foxx, Williams, Ruth and Gehrig are not answering the door.<br /><br />As far as sluggers, you have got to like a guy like Cravath. There is a player who averaged over 20 HRs a season for (I think) three straight years; back when no one was hitting HRs - the early teens.<br /><br />Not similarly, it is difficult (for me, anyway) to like McGwire. But that he is the most productive home run generator ever is a matter of record.<br /><br />Certainly home runs are marks of a slugger, but how about triples? You have to recognize that Crawford and Cobb are in the top three lifetime in both triples and inside-the-park homeruns. Come on now, tell me that is not impressive!<br /><br />Of them all tho, I've always liked Musial and Medwick who hit doubles, triples and homeruns freely. I guess that I prefer them because their statistics are fairly recent. Bur I know that Jackson and Hornsby were better hitters.<br /><br />Out of this pile of talented athletes, only McGwire I consider in the same vein as Bonds (pun intended). Barry may end up among the .600 club, but he will have to stop playing before he qualifies. Or maybe he wants 800 lifetime HRs more. It will be interesting, even if he quits before the '06 season. That is probably his best move.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Uhg! How can you say Bonds and Mac are the same type of player? Mac was all or nothing, literally. Bonds could actually hit for average. And let's not forget the speed he used to have. Even Dave Kingman was a better all around hitter Mac. Kingman is proabably the closest comperable to Mac there is.<br /><br />jay<br><br>WOW upsidedown is MOM. Mom upsidedown is what dad wants to see.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>identify7</b><p>One way to rate a home run hitter is by how frequently he hits homeruns. Nobody has ever hit homeruns as frequently as McGwire, over his career.<br /><br />Recognizing this statistic does not mean that I like McGwire. It only means that in a discussion about sluggers, the most prolific home run hitter will always come up, as will the player with the most lifetime HRs (even if he also hit into the most DPs lifetime).<br /><br />Edited to add:<br /><br />I hear the Judge is gonna get post #300 also.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>howard</b><p>Jay, were you serious in comparing McGwire to Kingman? Big Mac's slugging % and OBP were both about 100 points higher than Kingmans. Even taking into account the different eras that is a huge difference. I would say that Harmon Killebrew is much more comparable to McGwire.<br /><br />Identify7, you rightfully take into account the era in which Cravath played but you should do the same when comparing Mantle to Foxx. Don't you think that if Mantle had played in the late 20's and the 30's that his #'s would be significantly better. Also, Cravath played in the Baker Bowl, maybe the best hitters park ever. I would guess that his home/road splits are something like Larry Walkers or Todd Heltons.<br /><br />Howard

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>Any list of top 3 sluggers missing Teddy Ballgame is just wrong.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>I'll stand by Kingman being a much better comperable. Killer was capable of hitting some doubles and triples and stole the occasional base. Plus, he could play some defense. Kingman was pretty much an all or nothing hitter like Mac.<br /><br />Just looked at the comps on B-R, Thome is 1, Canseco 2, Killer 3, Kingman 10. I'll have to look later what they use to determine comps, since Thome and Canseco don't seem to make on the surface.<br /><br />Jay<br /><br />WOW upsidedown is MOM. Mom upsidedown is what dad wants to see.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>howard</b><p>Well, if you want to consider Killebrew's 19 to 12 advantage over Mac in SBs I guess you win that one. Of course, Mac was only caught 8 times to Killer's 18. They hit doubles and triples at about the same rate, which is to say almost never and if Killer was capable of playing a little D he sure did a good job of hiding it for 22 years. McGwire, on the other hand, actually won a gold glove. <br /><br />I didn't mean to make this a Killer vs. Big Mac thing. I think they were very similar players. Both were big slow guys that hit a lot of HRs, walked a ton and not much else.<br /><br />

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Killer could actually play defense. He came up as a 2B, moved to 3B and then 1B. We all know that GG are rarely given to the true defensive wizrds. PLayers like Gary Pettis that didn't hit much are a rarity when comes to winning GGs. I watched Mac play in Oakland from 1987-90 and to say he was brutal at his position is kind. <br /><br />Jay<br><br>WOW upsidedown is MOM. Mom upsidedown is what dad wants to see.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>identify7</b><p>Howard: Cravath being a right handed hitter really could not take as much advantage of the Bakers Bowl's short right field dimension (even 15' shorter than Yankee Stadium), as a lefty could.<br /><br />And to answer your question of "could Mantle have hit better in the '20s and '30s"? I dunno. Hornsby and Ruth found those years best, but Cobb and Wagner seemed to do better even earlier. How about the teens? Mantle and Cravath a one two punch on the Phillies - short right field wall - just right for Mantle.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>howard</b><p>Good point Identify. I've always liked Cravath but Mantle has always been my favorite. I wonder if Mantle would have batted lefty all the time if he played in the Baker Bowl.<br /><br />Jay, I guess we'll just have to agree to disagree...the board would be pretty boring if everyone held the same opinions.<br /><br />Cheers, guys.<br /><br />Howard

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>retrosheet should have the home road splits for Cravath so you can see how much he benefited from the Baker Bowl<br /><br />Jay<br><br>WOW upsidedown is MOM. Mom upsidedown is what dad wants to see.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>identify7</b><p>Howard: I never liked Mantle. He always seemed to fail when the chips were down.<br /><br />Now I realize that a top hitter in a triple crown season will probably fail to get a hit about two out of three tries, and will only hit a HR 10% of the time, but it seemed that Mantle only did something worthwhile when it wasn't worthwhile.<br /><br />He is a very popular player, maybe it is just me. I didn't like Ford either. He was the prima donna. It seemed like he only pitched if everything was right. Now I know that was not always true, because at least one year he had 25 wins (I think). And you can't get to that level by being selective about when you start. But was that only one year?<br /><br />

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>howard</b><p>It seems to me that when someone wants to criticize a player with impeccable stats they resort to things which are difficult to define such as clutch ability. Somehow or other the Yankees won year after year with Mantle as their best player and Ford as their best pitcher even though it "seemed" they only contributed when it didn't count. I assume you know the stats so I won't bother with them except for this:<br /><br />When Stengel managed the Yankees he often held Ford back so he could use him against the tougher teams and sometimes used him in relief in crucial spots. As a result Ford rarely had 30 or more starts in a season but still managed to win 18 or 19 games a couple of times. When Ralph Houk and then Yogi became managers they gave Ford the ball 35 to 39 games a season and he averaged 20 wins for the last five seasons of his career.<br /><br />

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Jason</b><p>Mantle is not even in the top 30 greatest players of all time. Maybe.......and I stress MAYBE in the top 50-100.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Brian</b><p>Jason,<br /><br />Who are the 49-99 players better than Mantle? I'd love to see that list...

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Brian</b><p>&lt;&lt;"The reason we filed in the lawsuit in the simplest terms possible is to prevent the authors from promoting themselves and profiting from illegal conduct," Rains told The Associated Press on Thursday. <br />He said laws prohibit people from possessing grand jury materials unless they are unsealed and said authors Mark Fainaru-Wada and Lance Williams, both also reporters for the Chronicle, "have made a complete farce of the criminal justice system." &gt;&gt;<br /><br />Bonds sues Shadow's authors. He sues because he believes they have broken laws regarding grand jury materials. <br /><br />He doesn't sue because what they are saying about him is incorrect... Hmmmmm.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>John Kal</b><p> I saw a good deal of Mantle live or on TV. Howard, there was a good deal of talk that Mantle was such a good right handed hitter that he might stop batting left handed. I don't know what the stats are but I remember he had greater power from the right side. When he came up, he was considered maybe the greatest prospect of all time; then he tripped over the sprinkler and tore up his knee which cost him some of his speed (in 1951?). Jason, his placement in the all-time list would be around #5. My top 10 list of non-pitchers: Ruth, Cobb, Wagner, Williams, Mantle, Mays, Joe D, Josh Gibson, Musial, Gehrig. I have a video of the '52 World Series and Mantle was very clutch: also, even his practice swings from the right side were one-of-a-kind powerful. No substances, just talent.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>howard</b><p>Thanks, Jon. I could only find his lefty/righty splits from 1959 on but they do indicate that he was significantly better as a right handed hitter. His BA is much higher at .314 to .268. The HR rates are similar but I'd imagine that was due to the higher degree of difficulty for a righty power hitter in Yankee Stadium as compared to that for a lefty.<br /><br />Jay, thanks for the retosheet tip. Unfortunately it only has Cravath's home/road split for the 1915 world series (one for eight in both venues, in case you were wondering).<br /><br />Howard

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>Jason</b><p>OK maybe I give you top 50, but he definitely was not in the top 30. He was definitely a great player but not one of the 30 best. I know a similar Icon today (Jeter). He was lucky enough to be on several WS teams so he had good timing. Obviously could not hit like Mantle, but I would say Jeter isnt in the top 30-50 best players today, just like Mantle is not in the top 30 of all time.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>John Kal</b><p> Jason, how 'bout you give us your top 10 non-pitchers.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Players that I'd rank ahead of Mantle: Ruth, Aaron, Mays, Bonds, Hornsby, Williams, Musial, Cobb, Wagner, Speaker, Lajoie, Gehrig, Gibson and half a dozen or more NeLers, Delahanty, Brouthers, Foxx, Pujols. I'm real tempted to put Helton, Manny and Vlad on the list too.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>WOW upsidedown is MOM. Mom upsidedown is what dad wants to see.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>Just read the article about Bonds lawsuit. I'm all for investigative journalism, but breaking the shouldn't be part of the investigation. Especially when what you are investigating is supposed to be illegal too. I know that leaking of sealed testimony is done all the time, but it's illegal for a reason and it's about time the people that ignore this are taken to task for it. <br /><br />After all this, I think it's time for me to go find a copy of Canseco's book and read it. There is probably a lot more truth there than in this new book and I'mpretty sure none ofthe info in Canseco's book was obtained illegally.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>WOW upsidedown is MOM. Mom upsidedown is what dad wants to see.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>warshawlaw</b><p>seems to me that what Bonds should be pissed about is inaccurate facts, not how accurate facts came to light. He is trying to get a prior restraint on a publication--he will lose...badly.

Bonds exposed: Shadows details superstar slugger's steroid use
 

Posted By: <b>jay behrens</b><p>No doubt, this lawsuit should have been brought immediately after the initial article was published.<br /><br />Jay<br><br>WOW upsidedown is MOM. Mom upsidedown is what dad wants to see.