Originally Posted by Snowman (Post 2492341)

One clarification I would add is that while yes, it is true that a "MIN SIZE" determination means that they did not detect any evidence of trimming, and if they had they would have instead graded it as "Evidence of Trimming" or "Authentic Altered", that isn't quite the same thing as them saying it is definitively not trimmed. They are simply stating that they do not see any evidence of trimming. They are not making a claim to the contrary. And in this case, that is a distinction with a difference. It's like in hypothesis testing when you fail to reject the null hypothesis, it does not imply that the alternative hypothesis is true (a concept that even most graduate-level statistics students struggle with).



That said, the fact that a card is in a "Min Size" holder does not mean it is likely to be trimmed but that they just couldn't prove it. And to say that it is "more likely" to be trimmed than a card in a numeric holder isn't particularly helpful. For example, a 1.25% chance of something is "more likely" than a 1.00% chance, but both are still extremely unlikely events.



You really have to look at the card holistically and make your own best judgment. And with this particular card, I would be extremely confident that it has in fact NOT been trimmed. Because if a trimmer skilled enough to fool both SGC and PSA had gotten his hands on it, he certainly would have trimmed that giant left edge, as the card measures wide without question.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 2492330)

Same 4 vote lead now for yes, even with all the more recent posts explaining MIN SIZE. Time to get over it? :eek:

Originally Posted by ullmandds (Post 2492479)

I remember that card… It was weird looking. Those are rare cards not many examples and some of them look weird yours looked weird...to me. SGC erred on the side of caution PSA is PSA!

Originally Posted by conor912 (Post 2492294)

Sell the sizzle, not the steak!

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards (Post 2492673)

Well to be fair a lot of time we're selling the chopped meat, but at least we call it hamburger and not filet.

Originally Posted by Snowman (Post 2492693)

Wait, wait, wait... Chopped meat AND medium potatoes? Are you working on a cookbook over there?

Originally Posted by Snowman (Post 2492694)

Fun fact. When a poll is neck and neck the entire way, and then suddenly breaks 10+ straight votes in one direction after a sample size of 160 votes, it usually means those votes were recruited. Not that it matters, but that would be pretty funny to me if someone here is taking the results so seriously that they felt the urge to recruit. Lol

Originally Posted by Snowman (Post 2492694)

Fun fact. When a poll is neck and neck the entire way, and then suddenly breaks 10+ straight votes in one direction after a sample size of 160 votes, it usually means those votes were recruited. Not that it matters, but that would be pretty funny to me if someone here is taking the results so seriously that they felt the urge to recruit. Lol

Originally Posted by Snowman (Post 2492694)

Fun fact. When a poll is neck and neck the entire way, and then suddenly breaks 10+ straight votes in one direction after a sample size of 160 votes, it usually means those votes were recruited. Not that it matters, but that would be pretty funny to me if someone here is taking the results so seriously that they felt the urge to recruit. Lol

Originally Posted by bnorth (Post 2492758)

They is very little that would surprise me on here. The one thing I am not surprised about is how 95 people have votes yes. Yet not a single one has contacted the AH and gave us their response. At least they cared enough to post/vote in this so ever important thread.:rolleyes:

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 2492762)

I don't understand this. It's just a poll, one doesn't have to "care" to have an opinion, and besides obviously GA is aware of the situation.

Originally Posted by bnorth (Post 2492764)

Just like I do not understand why someone would start multiple threads about it but never contact the AH. Makes no sense to me at all. Contacting the AH might do something while making threads and dozens of posts is just drama. Not saying I am right or you are wrong just don't understand how someone can "care" so much and do basically nothing about it.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 2492765)

My next thread will be on T206s.

Originally Posted by Lorewalker (Post 2492771)

You really need to clear that with Ryan, first.

Originally Posted by Leon (Post 2492463)

It's basically been just about 50/50 the whole time. That is how I will see it. For the record, when SGC made 2 bad mistakes on my Yum Yum, thinking it was a counterfeit and then on review just giving it the NO.....then BVG and PSA graded it a 1. NO, I didn't think SGC's mistakes needed to be disclosed when it sold. SGC was glaringly wrong on it.
.

Originally Posted by G1911 (Post 2492784)

When it was 79 no to 78 yes, discussion needed to immediately stop and the yes voters needed to shut up and get over it.

When it is 89 no to 95 yes, the vote might be rigged and Peter probably cheated to bring voters to the poll button.

Do you have alt accounts Peter? Why didn't you freeze the poll at the moment the No's were up by 1? Do you have a swarm of alt accounts or have you imporperly influenced voters to push them to vote Yes through unfair means? This is so wrong.

In reality, it's been within a handful of votes of exactly 50/50 the entire time.

Now, I believe by the rule of Ryan, anyone who voted No has to cut the cope and get over it until that option is winning again, in which case Yes voters must shut up.

Originally Posted by Lorewalker (Post 2492809)

Honestly I do not believe Ryan spent more than 45 seconds reading either thread. His comment was directed at the 4 or 5 people who have ruined Net54 for everyone (including, ironically, the 4 or 5 people). The topic had nothing to do with it.

Originally Posted by oldjudge (Post 2492806)

Leon--I remember you showing me that card at a National. I looped it and stared at it for a long time and couldn't tell if it was good or not. Probably the best argument that I could come up with for it being good was why would anyone counterfeit that card? I could see SGC not wanting to grade it --that was hardly a clear cut call.

Originally Posted by oldjudge (Post 2492866)

Hi Leon! I agree that counterfeiting it made no sense. It just looked different under a loope than any other 19th century photographic card I had seen. Hope all is well with you and yours!

Originally Posted by oldjudge (Post 2492873)

Safe trip my friend!

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 2492757)

If you're suggesting I recruited votes, that's absolutely false. I can't believe anyone else would bother to either. I frankly expected the poll to be about 60-40 no.

Originally Posted by Lorewalker (Post 2492809)

Honestly I do not believe Ryan spent more than 45 seconds reading either thread. His comment was directed at the 4 or 5 people who have ruined Net54 for everyone (including, ironically, the 4 or 5 people). The topic had nothing to do with it.

Originally Posted by Rhotchkiss (Post 2491961)

Another thread where (generally the same) 4-5 people monopolize the airtime, argue in circles, and kill the thread making reading it unbearable for everyone other than the 4-5 monopolizers.

Bottom line is that 150 people have voted and the majority feel that GA should not (or need not) disclose the situation. End of story. If you are in the minority, get over it.

Originally Posted by Snowman (Post 2492915)

This card just ended a few minutes ago on ebay. It sold for about halfway between what a 4 and 5 would sell for. And there were 5 separate bidders who all had bids in above the PSA 4 value.

https://www.ebay.com/itm/326415150504

Originally Posted by Aquarian Sports Cards (Post 2493098)

I always assumed gaskets were custom cut. Just an assumption

Originally Posted by perezfan (Post 2493084)

This brings up a longstanding question I've had with SGC... Do they stock black gaskets that are sized to accommodate undersized cards? I've seen hundreds of cards over the years that are labeled "Minimum Size Not Met", yet (like the McCovey) there is no gap or air space between the card and the gasket.

Quite a contrast between SGC and PSA, who's altered cards in numbered slabs often resemble maracas.

Originally Posted by oldjudge (Post 2493533)

Maybe SGC inspected the sides and saw evidence of trimming and PSA didn’t.

Originally Posted by oldjudge (Post 2493556)

Then I guess that Goldin didn't either. Does min size absolutely say that the reason a card is smaller than normal is that it was factory cut small or is it possible that the grading company is unsure whether a card was trimmed or not and to be safe just use a catch all phrase like minimum size? Regardless, why are you against a potential buyer having the information and letting him decide for himself? What are you afraid of?

Originally Posted by Lorewalker (Post 2493636)

Min Size by any of the TPG is a card that they find has a 100% legit factory cut but measures smaller than factory specifications. The exact term is significantly smaller but none tell us what the allowance is.

There is no gray area for a card being trimmed or not. It is either trimmed or it is not. If they are not sure, which I am pretty sure has never happened, then they have to err on the side of rejecting the card and stating Evidence of Trimming and a card can meet or exceed factory size specifications even if it is trimmed.

I am not afraid. I think the card speaks for itself. As do all cards in holders and many of which have had more than one opinion before they are bought by collectors. The lack of disclosing might turn away 50% of Net54 voters (many of whom do not understand what Min Size actually means, still) but my stance is that GA should not HAVE to disclose the prior opinion.

If we all want to believe that the cards we have in our collections in graded holders have been given an opinion that will stand the test of time, we are sadly fooling ourselves. If we all want to believe all the cards in our collections have only been submitted once, we are again fooling ourselves.

Originally Posted by Peter_Spaeth (Post 2496527)

Same card, different flip, makes all the difference. That's what the hobby has come to, for better or worse. Nice payday for the consignor.