Yeah, in the Memory Lane theft thread, I didn't understand it either. Focus should be on the criminals, merchandise, and how the theft occurred. Sympathy for the victim, until proven otherwise.

+1

If I had to bet, I would say these thieves already had buyers lined up or potential buyers. IMO, a good portion of the sports card industry is driven by collectors who have a network of buyers and sellers. So IMO, the really rare / high end stuff would likely end up in private collections and stay there for years. The other stuff will be cracked open, and then either sold raw or regraded.

I just called ten pawn shops in several big cities. Most will not take cards, but two said they will. One said they only take graded cards that are numbered, and one said they take raw or graded.

All it takes is for one of these cards to be discovered, and then the whole scheme could unravel.

There was a debate of whether Memory Lane should have continued to auction off the cards after they were stolen. If Ash were to auction these stolen cards off now I imagine there would be a similar debate.

Do people really think the cards would end up at a pawn shop? The people who stole these cards seemed to target the case, and I'm guessing it was because they understood the value of what was inside. For them to understand cards, they'd also have to understand how easy it is to track them with flip numbers, and they'd also have to know how little they'd get from a pawn shop.

I would struggle to make sense of the theft if the purpose of the theft was to received 10 to 15% of the cards actual value at a pawn shop.

What exactly is farfetched in your opinion? I don't see anyone accusing him of anything nefarious. I may have to go back and read. It horrible for him, but as i stated, it seems like he came out Hot and heavy after COVID to have an insane inventory.

Of all the places the cards could be sold, selling to a pawn shop would IMO be the last resort. But they have to be sold somewhere. Like pawn shops, card shops would also be a fairy low return.

However, I'd be willing to bet that some of these thieves are not the sharpest tools in the shed, and at some point might get desperate and make a mistake. If they have to pay a bill or some other expense, they may try to flip a couple of cards for quick cash. It's possible.

The main point is that to catch these guys, every option must be considered, no matter how remote. That's my belief anyway.

I was in well known card shop the other day, and a guy walked up to me while I was in the store and showed me some pictures on his phone of raw cards and asked if I would like to buy them. My first thought was that they were stolen. I just walked away.

Your theory is certainly possible.

It just seems like you're introducing a whole lot of co-conspirators into the process, which dramatically increases the likelihood of detection.

In theory, a single buyer might make more sense, just to keep the number of involved parties to a minimum. But when you look at the inventory here, just as one example, it's hard for me to imagine a single buyer who feels like they need a fist full of mostly low-grade 52 Mantles, and they're willing to risk prison to get them. Maybe a single 52 Mantle in PSA 8/9/10 or a high grade complete 52T set. Or pick your favorite high value and desireable grouping of cards that would slot into a nice collection to hold in perpetuity. While the stolen case of cards is certainly a very valuable grouping of cards, it doesn't scream out to me that some aspiring collector with a bunch of cash and shady morals would decide that they'd rather pick up this assortment of cards on the cheap for their own collection, because they're dying to have all of these specific cards.

I’d be really stunned if these jerks aren’t locked up by Friday. Someone knows them and will relish the opportunity to make their lives unpleasant. Could be an ex-wife, could be the neighbor you have been fighting with over a parking spot, could be the guy in high school you never paid back for beers. Exactly a zero chance they get away with this.

What if they're in Mexico by now?

Is there a big market for high value baseball cards in Mexico?

The cards could be with an accomplice, they could be anywhere.

The buyers don't know they are stolen.

For example, there is a card shop I know of that has a reputation - among a small community of collectors in my area - for dealing in stolen cards. He gets some really amazing cards...Babe Ruths, Cobbs, Michael Jordan's - all high end stuff. I always wondered how he always had such great inventory until one day another card shop owner said he sells hot cards. Well, I know for a fact that as soon as a great card walks in the door, that unscrupulous shop owner already has a buyer for the card. In fact, he has a network of high end collectors that routinely buy from him. They spend thousands each month. One quick phone call, and the card has been re-sold.

Once I figured this out, I stopped going to his shop.

+1

From the video evidence, these thieves were competent, bordering on professional. Competent/professional thieves avoid pawn shops. Speaking as a former pawn shop manager: While the exact steps and requirements vary by jurisdiction, in most cases, people selling or pawning items have to present a valid, government issued photo ID with name and address (which the shop makes a copy of and files) and get their picture taken (plus all the in-store security footage). In PA, records for all items that the store purchases or takes in on pawn are uploaded to law enforcement daily (exactly which law enforcement varies. Larger departments may actually have a pawn division which works exclusively with pawn/second hand stores. Rural areas often use the state police. Where I worked, there was a county detectives office and they got all the records)

Also, this means that at least in PA, if recovery of the items is your goal, you DO NOT WANT TO ALERT THE PAWN SHOP. If you alert the pawn shop, they won't buy or pawn it it (they legally aren't allowed to at that point), and they won't get the ID with name and address of the people who currently possess it (if you can think of a good cover story to get someone to hand over their ID and get their picture taken even though you're declining to take their items in, I'd love to hear it). You'll be no closer to getting your stuff back. If you don't alert the pawn shop, they'll buy/pawn it, law enforcement will see it on their daily report and notify the shop they're seizing the items. Police will come to the shop, which will give them the stuff, the copy of the photo ID with name and address and the photo that they took, even download store security footage if the officer feels it's necessary. Since the form people have to sign (again this may be PA specific) states that they have the legal right to dispose of the property, the pawn shop will file a complaint for theft by deception which a) adds another charge to the perps and b) at least theoretically, is how the shop recovers its money. That does suck for the shop, as court ordered restitution is slow coming, but it's the quickest way for the victim to get their items back.

So there's a constant supply of stolen high end cards being sold in plain sight and this all just goes under the radar?

Call 100 a day for the next 110 days? ;)

Great info. So there you go. We've only learned this by asking questions. Again, the idea is to leave no stone unturned.

However, I wonder how closely the cops monitor the "daily report." I would think that stolen baseball cards are NOT high on their list of priorities. I would think it depends on jurisdiction and other factors.

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Yea,
thats a awful lot of photos of those guys, gotta be dozens of people who know who they are

There probably is variation based on jurisdiction. The folks I dealt with were pretty thorough.

While I agree that "baseball cards" in general is unlikely to jump to the top of anyone's priority list, in this particular case the "2 million+" under value of stolen property will jump out, and might trigger some extraordinary measures. There were times I was asked by LE to watch for certain items or people. I was given a phone number that, if it was safe to do so, I was to call and ask for "Nora" (Need Officer Right Away) and stall them until LE arrived. Never actually had to make a call, but you'd be surprised how many contingencies are planned for.

Yea, is that so surprising? Of course, the guy is smart and takes precautions. He does not ask any questions when he buys the cards, and he quickly sells them. In fact, I would think that even he does not know they are stolen.

One day, I was in the unscrupulous shop, and I heard the shop owner receive two calls in a span of 30 minutes. Both were from people who live out of town and were "just traveling through the area," and they had some high end cards to sell. One was a raw Jordan RC. The shop owner told him to bring it in. Now, I don't know for sure that the Jordan was stolen, but when a non-local person "just travelling through" comes into your store with a high end card (and perhaps sells it for 25% of book), then it begs the question of whether the card is stolen.

Hence, when I say he deals in hot cards, what I'm really saying is that he does not ask any questions when he buys even though he probably should.

Great info. Thanks

Have you considered alerting the authorities?

Entirely possible that they get these guys in custody before the cards are located. Assume LE is watching them. Not good when a clear shot of you committing a felony in on the national news.

Doesn't PSA mark their cards with some super secret invisible technology? If someone broke one of these cards out and resubmitted to PSA for a new number/holder, wouldn't an alarm go off?

What's puzzling is that assuming some planning went into this operation and these were not amateurs on a whim, as the coordination and clear targeting suggest, you would think these guys also had to know they would be on surveillance video.

I have, but at the end of the day, I have zero evidence. Only strong suspicion and hearsay. I have a house and a family, so I cannot take the chance that what I say could come back and bite me if you know what I mean.

After the memory lane recovery, the armchair cops think it is simple to find stolen goods "by Friday" . I wonder what the odds are of any goods being recovered? Granted, these are pretty High profile, but I'd imagine less than 1% of stuff is ever found.

They do put something like that on autographed items that are issued a full LOA but not slabbed. Don't think on everything, though.

It depends if they planned for phase 2 as carefully as phase 1.

I never heard that before. I'm not sure I'd appreciate a TPG marking my card in any way for any reason. What kind of research did anyone do to figure out how these marks age over time? The last thing I'd want on my cards is some blotch that appeared 15 years down the road.

One member of the gang will come to Jesus pretty quickly and realize they are not going to live happily ever after and will go to the authorities to hopefully save his hide to whatever extent possible.

Maybe just certain photos. See below from their website.

As part of our Autograph Authentication service, you will have the option of having the item encapsulated in one of our tamper-evident holders (holder sizes permitting) or certified with documentation. With that said, please make sure you are completing the appropriate form as there is one form for items you wish to be encapsulated (“Autograph Encapsulation Submission”) and one for items that do not require encapsulation (“Autograph Submission”). Please refer to the top-right corner of the form for the submission type.

When an item is certified with documentation (not encapsulation), we will apply our invisible, synthetic, DNA-laced ink to the item, in conjunction with our tamper-evident label and matching Certificate of Authenticity (COA) or Letter of Authenticity (LOA). This PSA/DNA security matrix will identify your collectible as certified.

I support Nic's theory that there is only buyer with a predetermined $ number payable to the thieves for the theft and delivery. To try and unload an inventory and value such as this card by card is a sure way to be discovered and arrested. If this is the correct scenario, the buyer/perp may just sit on them for years and they will be lost to the hobby.
I had a beautiful '33 Goudey Gehrig stolen at a Ft.Washington show and it tore me up for weeks. I can't imagine how Ash must feel and my heart goes out to him.

Bingo. There are too many witnesses, security pictures, and conspirators/thieves. It is only a matter of time before the Prisoner's Dilemma plays out.

It's done with autographed items in general... not limited to photos.

And no, there are no "invisible markings" done to slabbed cards.

Have you personally seen any proof of co-conspirators in the footage? I watched a few of the videos and saw one guy grab a case and walk out. If I was shown in the photos. Aside from Huge-o (sic) . I'd come out and say I had nothing to do with it....quickly as possible.

The three guys distracting the three employees are working in conjunction with the bag man. They have been seen on film scouting out the booth all day long, even going as far as changing clothes several times so as to appear to be different individuals. I would suspect while this was all going down they had one or two people stationed as lookouts, maybe at exits and/or even vehicles waiting close by outside. This was not a spurt of the moment grab and go, they planned this out well in advance from all signs.

A little off topic but I always chuckle at PSA. PSA is the supposed top authority on altered cards yet they alter your submissions by applying ink to your card.

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I have a question? What was their plan b?
They waited all day..how did they know whoever took the cards out of the display cases would put the cards in the carrying case and leave it on the floor?..if that person simply took the case with him.to the parking lot or just to his workers waiting for them to finish packing etc..what was the plan b?

There is one video where it's pretty clear two other guys are involved distracting Ashish's workers.

The claim is false. It is not true. They do not put secret invisible ink on cards they slab, and nobody will produce any evidence that they do. One need not use falsehoods to hit PSA, they do plenty of factually true bad things.

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It is now on the Athletic Website and on the CBS Sports webpage.

I don't think this is a thing with PSA and cards.

Just other memorabilia.

Walk away and try again at the next show?

Yeah. Theft is usually a crime of opportunity. No opportunity, no theft. The Plan B stuff is usually reserved for higher concept or more sensitive thefts than baseball cards.

True, but I would characterize this theft as being a $2,000,000 heist, not "just baseball cards." I still agree, no plan B other than walk away.

However, when the cards themselves, with various minor defects and imperfections, are almost as identifiable as fingerprints, they won't get anything close to full retail.

Ok, I've read the thread and I've seen several posts about having some sort of private security hired to watch a dealer's inventory at all times. This was the first thing I thought of when I heard about the theft initially. Why would you go to a show with $2M worth of cards (in just ONE case) let alone all the other inventory you have at your table and not spend the money to have people behind your table whose sole purpose for being there is to watch your stuff?! :confused:

Sure, it would add to your show overhead, but the peace of mind would be worth it. And with that inventory, you could make one sale and pay for the security for the whole weekend from it.

I know Ash is a great guy and dealer and hope all works out for him, but I find myself torn between feeling bad about this and feeling upset that he didn't have this type of security at his table. Am I alone here or do any of you guys find yourselves in the same boat as me?

ETA: Of course, I feel bad about it, but I'm still upset security wasn't there.

.

Really hope they are caught and expect they will be.

Random question for dealers.... How can some guy stack chairs "for over an hour" and nobody from the building being rented or officials ask him what he is doing or who he is?

He had done hundreds of shows over the years without an issue until this particular one as far as I know.

He set up beside me in Boston last year at the Shriner's show and had one young helper with him but it was not his son but a close family friend.

Ashish walked the show a lot but the young man did a great job of protecting his inventory.

His son was doing a Dallas show the same weekend so he obviously did not have all of his inventory in Boston but one showcase had $250K based on his stickers and he had 12 showcases with all graded cards.

Yes, probably if he had more security this would not have happened but this was not his first rodeo.

It is what it is. He is a nice guy who has been robbed. That should be our focus.

Any comments detrimental to him are a shame IMO. Mistakes and oversights happen no matter the care taken.

I hope his inventory is found intact and returned to him and he can turn the corner with his business.

I'm sure tighter safeguards will be in place at future shows.

Ok, this won't go over well with most, but so it goes. Of course, everyone here feels horribly for Ashish, hates the thieves, and wants nothing more than that they be caught and the cards recovered. That all goes without saying.

But nobody has died here, this isn't a funeral, I don't see why people have to tiptoe delicately and avoid talking about how this happened. It's human nature to ask questions when stuff happens. And it seems to me most of the comments are fair. I'm not great with video but as far as I can tell a case with a million dollars or more of cards was just sitting down at the far end of a booth with multiple tables, no one was anywhere close to it even before the distractor guys came along. Obviously hindsight is 20 20, but I think the comments have been fair and not malicious or disrespectful in any way.

No, no one died. It could have been worse (in the big picture).

It happened because trained, professional thieves exploited a human mistake. That is it. Now, the focus should be on the thiefs. But that is just my opinion and this is a chatboard.

It's not mutually exclusive. One can focus on the thieves (whatever that means?) and still discuss how this happened and can be prevented.

Didn't think I said anything detrimental to Ash in my post tbh. I even said he was a good guy and dealer and that I did feel bad for him. I think it's great he's never had this problem at all the other shows he's done in the past, but he was lucky it didn't happen sooner with no security around. I mean, $2M in one case? Not to mention all the other inventory at the table. I do feel bad for him and hope these guys rot in hell for this, but my point is simple, pay for the security when you have that much money at you're table.



.

The idea that a crime should be discussed but without any discussion of how it happened or why or any practical lessons that can be learned is a little amusing. These things are normal matters of discussion for a crime in any other hobby or place. The list of things collectors don’t want anyone to discuss is just too long to keep up with.

I guess focus on the thieves means to give more attention to them than the reason it happened. Both inevitably get discussed, nothing wrong with that. But it was a human mistake, that is how it happened. Someone should have been with the cards all of the time. It's not rocket science.
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Seems everything gets discussed. You should be fine.
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Right, but people who say that are getting lambasted for being out of line and somehow insensitive.

Hence why I said "don't want to be discussed" instead of "censor from discussion".

Dr Jim and Rich talking about the robbery

https://youtu.be/s8H682uThMs?si=BH41uHZ8gE-g9W07

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every time I watch that vid, and see that dude flying down the isle and getting incredibly animated with the worker to distract him, I wonder what was he talking nonsense BS about ??

like " look at my phone, the next show I can get you a table with chrome legs " and " see the glare you get when you set up at this spot, you wanna be here next time " , all the while peeking at his buddy walking away with the case

just crazy

Here's pics of thief with the large watch.

Agree...

A discussion of how the theft could better have been prevented potentially helps future crimes from ever happening. If we don't learn from our actions (and evolve accordingly), we are prone to recurring disasters. I fail to see how such a discussion is a bad thing. :confused:

We all want these criminals caught and prosecuted to the full extent of the law. But doesn't it also make sense to do whatever we can to disarm them moving forward?

Pics of the thief who grabbed the cards. Many of the thieves had tattoos.

A lot of people are also assuming that these guys are "Americans" and that people will "recognize" them. They could be illegal aliens. And maybe they are not even in America now!

As for finding those cards, man, that's gonna' be tough. Sure, a few are rare, like that WWG DiMaggio, Caramel Ruth, Sporting News Jacksons, etc. However, all the others are not. For example, up here in Canada, there are hundreds of people who own that 52T Mantle. I know that for a fact. They're always turning up here and there. Now, imagine how many there are in the US? :eek: And as for the other cards, there are probably thousands of them in the US. These guys could sit on them for about a year and then just slowly put them back into the marketplace. I know they're graded, but they can get cracked out and the raw cards can get worked on a little bit in order to prevent anyone from matching them with older scans. And even if they don't work on them, I doubt that a year from now anyone is gonna' be doing checks on their newly-purchased cards. People are just gonna' be so absorbed in their own problems and will totally forget about all this.

Keep distributing the photos of the actual thieves!! Horrible humans - having no respect for how hard it was for this dealer to accumulate those items over many years....

Here's a photo of some our board posters (at least the one that keeps flashing in my head when some interact with each other)

Seems to me that 75% of men under age 50 have prominent tattoos. But maybe I'm just hanging out on the Jersey Shore too much.

But it is interesting. . . .if you were a professional operator like everyone is suggesting this team was, why would you expose something distinctive like a large tattoo on your arm.

Of course. . . it could be a fake tattoo. And that could be fake facial hair.

The International angle is interesting. These cards may very well be out of the country at this moment.

"Turner, who was a part of a group that purchased Collectors, the parent company of PSA, in early 2021, believes collectors overseas are holding massive cards and aren’t saying anything. 'I guarantee it,' Turner said. 'We have PSA China quietly open in Shanghai. We’re accepting submissions. We have a 100-person Shanghai office now, mainly for coin grading...I bet you that — and this is just gut feel — that half of the ungraded cards in our market are overseas,' Craig said. 'And a lot of it’s high end.'"

https://sportscollectorsdigest.com/n...al-card-market

As I said before, they could have fled to (back to?) Mexico. I mean hopefully they're just hacks and they'll be nabbed soon, but who knows.

I’m not sure if this was asked yet or does anyone who knows this dealer, what is next for him & his sake ? Will he carry on, pack it in hoping to get the cards back eventually?

I feel like views on the theft are heavily influenced by movies. For example, if I stole these cards it would be easy for me to regrade them one at a time and sell them one at a time over a pretty long period of time. The last thing I would do is attempt to sell anything now and it would be an even worse idea to try to sell everything at the same time.

You remember what happened in Goodfellas. Some of these guys will start buying their girlfriends caddys and fur coats.

Unfortunately, it would be trivial for them to break them out of the slabs and resubmit a few at a time to any grading company and no one would even suspect anything unusual. :(

Well, that is usually a downfall but in this case stealing baseball cards is a pretty inconspicuous crime. It's not like stealing a car, for example. And unlike cash, if a casual observer at your house catches sight of them, it's more likely than not that it wouldn't even register with the person.

People suggested they might leave the country with them. But I really don't see why you would. I wouldn't. Nobody even knows I have cards unless I tell them. And if you came to my house, you'd never see them.

This. Fake tattoos and beards? Why not the face mask generator from Mission Impossible?

And the Plan B stuff.

The only real way to recover the cards is for someone to know who took them and for that person to still have them. Otherwise it will be years of auction watching and trying to cover every conceivable avenue of sale which I think will both get exhausting and turn up little in the end.

I do hope the cards are recovered and the person who lost them is made whole. I just don't think there will be any theatrics involved.

Their faces are all over the internet. That's the problem for them, not the cards so much. If you were planning this crime and knew you would likely be on surveillance video, how would you plan to avoid the domestic authorities?

Are these cards going to the "black market" or somewhere less sophisticated?

https://www.sportscollectorsdaily.co...show-security/

“If the group involved in the theft is well organized, they will offer the items for sale on the black market,” Hayes noted. “If they are amateurs who believed they saw an opportunity to make a quick score off the theft, the items stand a good chance of being recovered in the future as these thieves almost always offer items for sale to pawn shops or other venues that will report the activity to law enforcement.”

Exponentially more? Why? Not buying this. "Navigating auction protocols." Yeah that's so hard.

“So long as they can be assured the items are of legitimate provenance, they are unconcerned about the legality of the acquisition,” Hayes stated. “In fact, these collectors are often willing to pay exponentially more to acquire these items rather than navigating legal sales and auction protocols.

I would first reason that the domestic authorities probably wouldn't look very hard and the person who actually stole the case is wearing generic featureless accessories like glasses and a hat. He's not distinct in any way that I can tell other than having a tattoo of something. He's got a little facial hair. He looks like a generic "dude" to me, which is of course probably his ideal observation.

If he were 6'9 and had red hair with nothing covering any of their features, then maybe I'd consider he might not be concerned with his appearance because he doesn't plan to stick around.

If my plan is to steal the inventory of a major dealer, I would assume the authorities are going to put in a very solid effort to find me.