Bonds hit 760 home runs. Without PEDs he might have hit 380. Sosa hit 600, I doubt he would have made 300. The effect on their career numbers was huge.

Conversely, nobody really thinks Mantle's totals were significantly affected by whatever he stuck in his butt. Nobody thinks Rose wouldn't still be the all-time hit leader without greenies.

The levels of difference between steroids and other cheating is night and day. Players always will try to get an advantage. Stealing signs, putting Vaseline on balls, banging trash cans, all kinds of things. But they are not all the same.

In most cases, the MLB monitors cheating and adds rules to eliminate its impact. Unfortunately, in the 90s, Selig and Reinsdorf were worried about the popularity of the game and decided to effectively allow steroids and HGH usage to increase offense. Things got out of hand quickly, and journeymen like Sosa became superstars. It was a big mess, and it is still a mess 30 years later.

Let's stay focused on the things that matter. Sosa having 600 home runs is ridiculous. Mays hitting 660 is not.



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So punish those that had better PEDs?:confused:

I really do not see a lot of difference because everyone was on everything and doing anything they could to win/be better. Pitchers and hitter. So the for me everything is even.

I honestly think they should be drug tested daily and if they don't have high levels of PEDs in their system they need fined and possibly suspended if it happens more than once. With the money they make they should be giving the fans their real best. OK most probably already are but lets get it out in the open. Under those oversized uniforms most look like action heroes.

Steroids developed to the point MLB stepped in and said this nonsense is banned. A whole group of players said f you to established rules. They have been kept out of the Hall for that reason. I haven’t lost sleep over it.

The story is that Bonds began using steroids in 2000. Through 1999, he had 445 home runs.

^^^ This right here ^^^

They're not going in anytime soon, either. They are false. Bonds isn't the greatest for this reason. His stats are false. They don't matter; meaningless. The other ways ballplayers have sought to gain an advantage illegally are kindergarten in comparison. MLB, the writers, etc., all see it this way. They wish these guys would just go away.

With all due respect facts are not part of this thread.:D

I think he started in 93 or 94, when he started having injury problems. But whatever.

My point is the same: his career numbers are hugely inflated. Rose, Mays and Mantle's are not.

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Everything is not even, though. Not close to even.

And the question is basically: do you punish the players with unfairly inflated numbers, or do you punish everyone who got their numbers fairly?

Again, I put more blame with the owners, but the players knew they were abusing the game.

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His girlfriend who trashed him in Sports Illustrated or wherever said it was a reaction to Sosa and McGwire.

And many who probably also used are in. What of that?

There is truth to that. Players had been using steroids to recover from injuries for several years. Canseco and a very few others had been overdoing it, but after the McGwire-Sosa spectacle, I think Bonds decided to take it to another level.

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Always thought it was 1990 ,
His first four years 48, 59, 58, 58 rbis (in 580 at bats)
Then bam 1990 - 114 rbis
260 hitter that can’t break 60 RBIs is now the MVP
1989 ops .777
1990 ops .970
I can understand improvement but four perfectly mediocre years and then your an mvp

Suppose he used them previously specifically to recover from an injury. How is that different from Koufax getting his elbow shot up every time he pitched?

I've noticed facts are distinctly unwelcome.

Of course he won't get to 11K ABs. My comparison makes sense because if he had a level playing field to compare, where both of them had the same ABs, then Judge would beat Pujols numbers in all the categories shown except hits. But Judge would still be a 3,000 hit club member and only be 150 short of Pujols. How else can you compare them unless they both had the same ABs? It's apples to oranges otherwise. ;)


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That's a lot more nuanced, isn't it. Even in Koufax's day, doctors had concerns about cortisone causing further damage to the joints. It wasn't illegal, but maybe it was unethical. You can make similar points about steroids, there are adverse affects from long term use, which is why they are restricted to prescription use.

Steroids turned out to be much more useful than cortisone, however, and should have been regulated by Selig early on. Instead, he implicitly condoned them, which allowed baseball home run records to become a farce.

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Cortisone is a steroid, no?

If you use something that isn’t banned, hard to say you’re doing something wrong. This seems fairly cut and dry. Bonds and others knew what they were doing was wrong. That some have slipped through doesn’t mean they should get in. That’s letting the perfect be the enemy of the good. Good is trying to keep known violators out. That’s what the actual voters seem to be doing.

Ha exactly. Let’s pretend we didn’t see Bonds’ head nearly double in size.

I don't follow at all. So it's just irrelevant that Judge didn't start until age 25 and has spent lots of time on the DL? We just assume that away in order to compare him? I see no logic in this whatsoever?

Except that it results in a totally skewed Hall.

So did his hat size actually change or is this just a cool sounding myth. Some Peds will 100% bloat your face up as many make you retain water. So your head will look bigger when it really isn't.

Olympians get stripped of their medals for doping. Why hasn't Bonds been stripped of his MVPs and home run records?

Now you’re talking. Agreed.

Seriously. Why hasn't it happened? Rose was banned for betting on his team, but Bonds and many others (supposedly) completely compromised the integrity of the game but hasn't been?

He went from an 8 to a size 10. I am surprised you didn't know that. HGH makes your head grow.

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No idea about what his hat size did but we all saw his body and head grow to a pretty absurd degree. It was part of the steroid era zeitgeist. SNL did skits about it. It wasn’t debatable or even a secret that he was juicing.

If you’re saying you think he should be stripped of records I’m agreeing with you.

No I am just curious at the apparent double standard or at least inconsistency.

Yep, it's a big mess. We know that guys like Sosa and Palmeiro were major abusers. But we have a little bit of doubt about Piazza and Ortiz. And Pujols is probably OK, but are we really sure?

But hey. Your brain may be spinning, but Selig and Reinsdorf got another $500 million in their pockets, so it's all worth it.

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I would guess that MLB would consider it not in its financial interest and/or too messy to deal with. The Hall voters are doing a bit of rogue justice in its place. No complaints here.

A lot of line drawing problems. Gaylord Perry probably cheated every time he took the mound. God knows how many guys used corked bats. Does it enhance performance to know what pitch is coming because your teammates are stealing signs?

LOL, 8 to 10. I was actually surprised at how small many MLB players heads are. I noticed it when looking at game worn hats. I wear a tight 7 5/8 when I have no hair so it is hard to find a gamer that I can wear.

HGH is one of the few things I never took.

I get your frustration but it sounds like you are saying it's too hard to figure things out, so let's just ignore it all? Or maybe, let's pretend it's all the same?



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Yeah, nobody was selling it in the dorms back then.

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There are almost always line drawing problems but sometimes people are clearly on the wrong side of the line. Diaz was thrown out tonight for a foreign substance on his glove and he will be suspended. If he otherwise goes on to have a Hall of fame career do I think tonight should keep him out? No, although if he repeatedly gets caught I would listen to arguments. The steroid era guys at issue are not a close call. There was a major point of emphasis and rules put in place and these guys knowingly violated them and took steps to try to cover it up. Then there were lies to Congress that just added to the black mark. Bonds and Clemens were/are two of the best players to have ever played the game. Yet they played in and era that put an emphasis on no cheating via steroids and they said nope, f you.

I'm not sure. But a lot of injustice arises when you apply the laws unequally. Do we really think Papi didn't use, for example?

That's why we leave things to sportswriters, since they are the most logical and consistent thinkers.

By the way, I think Ortiz likely abused steroids, as I said earlier. But it's ok that Papi and Pudge slipped in. Some people get in that don't really deserve to, that's the Hall. On the other hand, it's an abomination that Selig was voted in.

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But it's worse than not deserving. Bonds will spend the rest of his life hated and ostracized by baseball, and he won't get in. Ortiz probably did the same shit he did, and maybe even benefited from it more (early Papi was not exactly on a path to greatness), and he will spend the rest of his life idolized and beloved, and of course he's in. Makes part of me want to say eff it, let's just let em all in and move on.

He was banned, but his records all stand

There is more evidence that David Ortiz used steroids than there is that Roger Clemens used steroids.

Yeah that makes a lot of sense, not to me anyhow. I know, different actors.

Yes but Clemens was a jerk who left town and maybe even mailed it in a bit before he did, while Ortiz was beloved. A tale of two Red Sox.

Oops, silly me, trying to use facts and a consistent standard again.

If you were cheating on your wife, and she accused you of cheating on her without any evidence, would you admit it? No! If you stole money from your employer, and they accused you of stealing without any evidence, would you admit it? No! Without any proof or solid evidence, most will deny it. It's human nature. Heck, some will still deny it when presented with solid evidence.

Most will agree that OJ did it. Why is that? No proof or solid evidence. Is it because he wasn't liked? No. Most were able to use common sense to put together, based on what information was or was not provided, to conclude that he was (most likely) guilty. There are many people found guilty, without a smoking gun.

Like everyone else in this forum, I wish the steroid era never happened. I often think about what numbers Arod, Bonds, McGwire, Sosa, Palmeiro, Ramirez, and many others would have ended up with, without steroids. Again, we will never know, but only God Knows :D

The only player in the HOF from the steroid era that bothers me the most is Pudge Rodriguez.

1. Jose Canseco wrote in his book that he personally injected Pudge with steroids.

2. Jose Canseco and Pudge Rodriguez played for the Texas Rangers from 1992-1994.

3. When asked if he was on the list of 103, Rodriguez responded “Only God knows."

4. He played for the Texas Rangers in the 1990s.

5. His physique varied fairly radically over the years, with it being beefier pre-testing and noticeably smaller once testing was implemented.

The Anti-Drug Abuse Act of 1988 criminalized the use and distribution of anabolic steroids. Steroids finally made it to baseball's banned substance list in 1991, however testing for major league players did not begin until the 2003 season.

https://metsdaddy.com/2016/12/why-i-...van-rodriguez/

Just one mans opinion.

Here are some other good examples:

https://www.businessinsider.com/athl...teroids-2011-9

Interesting that they couldn't find any football players to include. While football also has rules against PEDs, why is it that no one seems to care if players are using them?

The NFL has suspended hundreds of players for PEDs, including stars like DeAndre Hopkins.

I know, but does anyone care when it happens like what is seen in baseball? Has anyone been kept out of Canton because of a PED suspension?

Not to my knowledge. Will agree that the steroid era of baseball gets an extra special amount of hate.

People still relate to baseball players as people generally of normal size and build so when someone develops well beyond that, it doesn't sit well. Nobody expects that of football players who at many positions are of supernatural size and strength.

I think there is also a much greater historical emphasis on numbers and statistics in baseball, and during the PED era, those old numbers were being dwarfed. Most baseball fans knew 61 was the home run record for a season. How many football fans know the rushing or receiving yardage records?

I'm guessing it's a legal matter. If there is no evidence (like a failed test) he would probably sue MLB, would win and make MLB look bad. They can just ignore him and we can all talk about it. It's more important to us than them.

I don't think changing the past is in baseball's bloodline. I really don't expect them to add asterisks or not acknowledge past records because it's steeped in tradition.

There is no asterisk on the 1919 World Series title, for example. And when given the opportunity to right a wrong and award Armando Galarraga a perfect game, they declined to do so even though the call was clearly wrong.

I would say that Lyle Alzado would have had a great chance at the HOF if not for his honesty. His true accounts also completely destroy the idea of the "Steroid Era". He claimed to have begun his steroid use in 1969 at Yankton College.

If they were readily available to a tiny little NAIA college football player in 69'. There was no way on earth that professional athletes somehow never touched them for 15 more years, it's a joke. No one even tested until 2003, it would have been a pure free for all.

What were those five seasons from Koufax? I'll give you three but five "among the elite seasons ever put up by a pitcher"? 1962, he was 14-7 with a 2.54 ERA. That's been done roughly 80 million times in the history of baseball. Roughly :) 1964, you've got a better case but it wasn't a full season.

Koufax was league average outside of Chavez Ravine for his career.

His 2.54 ERA that year led the NL. He led all of MLB that year in hits per nine innings and Ks per nine innings. How many times has all that been done in a single year — which was by far the worst of his miraculous five year run?

Better at home, no doubt, as is almost every Dodger who pitched in Chavez Ravine, but he was NOT league average away.

Career away numbers: 3.04 ERA .652 winning percentage (Pitching largely for a team that couldn't hit it's way out of a paper bag) 1.167 WHIP, over a strikeout per inning and remember those totals are "poisoned" by his lackluster years. In that 5 year stretch they're pretty damn dominant.

My biggest take-away from that poll is that Johnny Bench is REALLY underrated.

Koufax
 

https://bleacherreport.com/articles/...fewer%20starts.

Out of curiosity, how would you suggest we compare the two on an even playing field then? :confused:



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Off the top of my head you could compare Judge's numbers to Pujols' at the same age. Or you could do a more realistic projection of Judge's expected path going forward (there would be a lot of imprecision there obviously) and compare it to Pujols' career totals. Or if you don't want to penalize Judge for starting much later, I suppose you could compare 162 game averages, although that will overvalue Judge IMO.

Interesting thoughts Peter. I may have to try to adjust the comparison and see where we get then.



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He had a career 3.38 ERA outside of Dodger Stadium, which is what I said, NOT "on the road". League Average is perhaps overstating it a bit but "very normal" certainly isn't.

And, no, a 2.54 ERA is not an all-time elite season. Period.

Always thought he was a tad overrated. Yogi is criminally underrated and my man Gary Carter could stand to be rated a bit higher generally when it comes to catchers.

Greatest Living player
 

There is only ONE player on this list that I believe the vast majority of baseball people would agree was the best EVER at his position.

Ricky is not the best outfielder ever, Jeter is not the best shortstop ever Koufax is not the best pitcher ever, etc.

Only Mike Schmidt is almost universally thought of as the greatest third baseman of all time.

That has to count for something when there are only 9 or 11 ( Relief pitcher and DH) greatest of all time by position. And Schmitty is the only one still breathing.

Bench is a close second but check out Yogi's records/stats/awards/rings!

Catcher WAR
Bench 75.1 (1st)
Berra 59.5 (6th)
Carter is 2nd in this metric

Agree! Just like when Jack Clark accused Albert Pujols of using PEDs, without solid evidence. Albert Pujols immediately said he was going to take legal action against Clark, and Clark backed off.

Yes his career home ERA at the Coliseum wasn't great, not sure about his numbers at Ebbets. But EVERYONE'S numbers were awful at the Coliseum.

People also seem to lose track of the fact that Koufax put it all together as a starter around 23 years old and became elite at 24. Perfectly normal ages for a pitcher to "get there" Do we really penalize him for the Dodgers not being able to send him to the minors because of the bonus baby rules?

If he had been able to develop normally maybe his greatness comes out even earlier, who knows. At the very least he doesn't have those first 4 or 5 years weighing down his career numbers because they're in the minors.

Hell there are a number of elite pitchers who don't even start getting their first cups of coffee until about the time he started to put it all together. I just don't see the sense in "punishing" him for career totals that are deflated by those years that should've been spent in the minors.

Also, those years that everyone loves to hate were actually right about league average, not some dumpster fire. So you get a guy who was average from age 19 to age 23-24. I did the work in another thread somewhere but there are tons of HOF pitchers who weren't very good until that 23 -24 year old range, and they NEVER had a 6 year stretch like Koufax's peak. IF you're going to argue against Koufax the better argument is him being done at 30, rather than criticism of his learning years that should've been spent in the minors.


And again I didn't vote for him as the greatest living player.

+1

All good points regarding the bonus baby rules forcing him to pitch in the Majors well before he was developed, and how he actually developed in a normal timeline.

And I also agree he isn't the best living player.

He may not even be the best living left handed pitcher. That may be Randy Johnson--a guy that didn't get going until he was 29, but didn't slow down until his early 40s, while having the highest ERA+ 6x, winning 5 Cy Youngs, leading the League in strikeouts 9x, and winning 3 games in a World Series vs. the Yankees on his way to a WS MVP.

Of course, if Koufax had stayed healthy, he might actually be the best living player.

I remember when Sosa got in trouble for having a corked bat that he used for batting practice...to which he stated that he was just doing that for the fans.

Clearly, he did not understand what you do Peter. One of the strongest draws, IMO, of Baseball, is that any 'average joe' can relate...even dream that he could be THAT guy.

And Baseball is ONLY so relatable on the most level playing field possible.


Totally agree!

He and Schmidt, IMO, are GOATS at their particular position...and so is Rickey...as a leadoff batter.


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Your list is more than plenty complete in fact it could’ve been just 10 players .. Bench , Bonds , Griffey , Rickey , Koufax , Pujols , Rose , Ryan , Schmidt , Clemens .. oh forgot Palmeiro 😬
and Judge 🙂

And A Rod - Not a single vote considering some crazy ass numbers

And his crazy ass numbers didn’t result in him taking two HR records away
from deserving players who earned them, while using PEDs.

I will never understand the love for Bonds.

Eddie Murray - One of the three most dangerous switch hitters of all time
3255 hits 504 dingers 1917 rbis

(Sorry for the extra posts - fuel by Joseph Magnus Triple Cask)

All of that is completely legitimate but Koufax still played those years so they still count for/against him.

Did he get good at 24 because he figured it out? Or because they raised the mound, increased the size of the strike zone, added two awful teams via expansion, and moved into Dodger Stadium?

Probably some of both, but considering he put up numbers that were far better than most pitchers in the league, it would seem like he figured it out should get more of the credit.

One explanation, and maybe it's BS, is that Koufax with the help of Larry Sherry (I think) learned better mechanics and so developed much better control without sacrificing his speed.