Fair enough!

We've agreed in principle on an amount, after a little back and forth. There's some paperwork to be completed, and then they're quoting up to 6 weeks for the check to arrive. I guess they're working off of the AH framework of waiting 6 weeks before they pay out.

Just to be clear - I'm not complaining. PSA obviously has their process, and that will take some time. So it's not surprising that there will be a wait.

But I suppose I'll also wait patiently until the check clears before I get too frisky about reinvesting it in replacement cardboard.

Rather than just fixing up cards with good eye appeal and resubmitting?

I've seen some dumb posts from your keyboard, but this one has to be tops.

Thought you were leaving??? No such luck. Must be a lonley existence

I read it and I stand by what I said. Just because Lorewalker lists the cert numbers for 80 cards and claims the submission was for 80 cards doesn't mean that the submission was in fact 80 cards. We simply don't know. We can make assumptions like two of the same card having back to back certs are likely from the same submission or a run of cards within the same set are likely from one submission, but we don't ultimately know. And with this run of cert numbers, there are definitely some cards that could be from different submissions. In fact, I'd argue that the likelihood those 4 Jackie Robinson RCs and 3 Mickey Mantle RCs being in the same submission as the 1952 Topps commons is actually extremely low (near-zero). Those are almost certainly from at least two different submissions. Also, the submission could have ended with the baseball cards and the football, hockey, and basketball cards may have been from a different submission. Again, we don't know. They ran in different auctions. And just because many of the cards were sold on PWCC doesn't mean they were from the same submission either. PWCC was the largest consignment company in the hobby at the time.

And just because Lorewalker claimed that the other 20 certs were "Altered, Min Size or Miscut" does not mean that those certs were in fact deemed to have been altered, min size, or miscut. This is a prime example of what I'm constantly preaching about in this hobby. The telephone game of misinformation and malinformation is ridiculous around here. Lorewalker looks up the cert numbers on PSA website and can't find the cards listed, so he assumes they were rejected by PSA and then posts that as if it were a known fact. Then the lemmings read his post, and assume it must be true and they perpetuate it. But we know that PSA allowed submitters to put minimum grades on their submissions, which resulted in the same "We're sorry. The certification number provided was not found in the database." error listed on their website. Furthermore, we all know this to be the case. This shouldn't be news to anyone who reads these threads. Yet you guys just want to pretend like that's not an option, let alone the most likely explanation.

I think the most likely explanation of that run of certs is that they were from at least two submissions and that the invalid certs didn't meet the minimum grades listed on the submission forms.

How could you know this without access to the backend database inside PSA? They don't post the reason a cert is invalid on the website. It just says, "We're sorry. The certification number provided was not found in the database."

Are you saying that because Lorewalker posted it, thus it must be true? lol

Is there something I'm missing? All I see are invalid certs on PSA's website and a list composed by Lorewalker claiming, without evidence, that they were deemed "Altered, Min Size or Miscut"

I can’t tell you how happy I am that this working out. One question… when you say paperwork, I hope you don’t mean a nda?

By outlining the process, I think you have helped collectors who may want to try the same thing in the future.

28639435 1948 LEAF 79 JACKIE ROBINSON VG-EX 4 6/11/2018 $7,323.23 eBay (pwcc_auctions) 401546196469
28639436 1948 LEAF 79 JACKIE ROBINSON EX-MT 6
28639437 1948 LEAF 79 JACKIE ROBINSON EX-MT 6 5/9/2018 $8,400.00 eBay (pwcc_auctions) 401530023628
28639438 1948 LEAF 79 JACKIE ROBINSON EX-MT 6
28639439 Altered, Min Size or Miscut
28639440 1951 BOWMAN 151 LARRY DOBY NM-MT+ 8.5 6/11/2018 $515.50 eBay (pwcc_auctions) 352369898846
28639441 Altered, Min Size or Miscut
28639442 1951 BOWMAN 253 MICKEY MANTLE NM 7 3/12/2018 $23,925.00 eBay (pwcc_auctions) 142708764743
28639443 1951 BOWMAN 253 MICKEY MANTLE EX-MT+ 6.5 12/4/2018 $42,322.20 eBay (pwcc_auctions)
28639444 1951 BOWMAN 253 MICKEY MANTLE NM 7
28639445 Altered, Min Size or Miscut
28639446 Altered, Min Size or Miscut
28639447 Altered, Min Size or Miscut
28639448 1952 TOPPS 10 AL ROSEN NM 7 3/12/2018 $1,009.99 eBay (pwcc_auctions) 352295235649
28639449 1952 TOPPS 14 BOB ELLIOTT BLACK BACK MINT 9 4/11/2018 $1,136.11 eBay (pwcc_auctions) 401516077394
28639450 1952 TOPPS 18 MERRILL COMBS NM 7
28639451 Altered, Min Size or Miscut
28639452 1952 TOPPS 39 DIZZY TROUT NM-MT 8 3/12/2018 $1,388.00 eBay (pwcc_auctions) 401501284252
28639453 1952 TOPPS 118 KEN RAFFENSBERGER NM-MT 8 3/12/2018 $154.50 eBay (pwcc_auctions) 352295236941
28639454 1952 TOPPS 187 BOB MILLER NM-MT+ 8.5 3/12/2018 $1,182.87 eBay (pwcc_auctions) 352295238630
28639455 Altered, Min Size or Miscut
28639456 1952 TOPPS 192 MYRON GINSBERG NM-MT+ 8.5 3/12/2018 $1,397.54 eBay (pwcc_auctions) 352295238764
28639457 1952 TOPPS 227 JOE GARAGIOLA NM 7
28639458 1952 TOPPS 227 JOE GARAGIOLA NM-MT+ 8.5 3/12/2018 $787.00 eBay (pwcc_auctions) 401501286053
28639459 1952 TOPPS 248 FRANK SHEA NM+ 7.5
28639460 1952 TOPPS 261 WILLIE MAYS NM 7
28639461 1952 TOPPS 269 WILLARD NIXON EX 5
28639462 1952 TOPPS 288 CHET NICHOLS NM 7
28639463 1952 TOPPS 291 GIL COAN NM-MT 8 3/12/2018 $249.01 eBay (pwcc_auctions) 352295240054
28639464 1952 TOPPS 293 SIBBY SISTI EX 5
28639465 1952 TOPPS 309 JIM BUSBY MINT 9 3/12/2018 $2,025.00 eBay (pwcc_auctions) 352295240144
28639466 1952 TOPPS 310 GEORGE METKOVICH NM-MT 8 3/12/2018 $1,005.00 eBay (pwcc_auctions) 401501286695
28639467 1952 TOPPS 318 HAL GREGG EX 5
28639468 1952 TOPPS 352 KARL DREWS NM-MT 8 10/15/2018 $617.00 eBay (pwcc_auctions) 401612234244
28639469 Altered, Min Size or Miscut
28639470 1952 TOPPS 385 HERMAN FRANKS NM-MT+ 8.5 10/15/2018 $926.76 eBay (pwcc_auctions) 401612234473
28639471 1952 TOPPS 395 JAKE PITLER NM-MT 8 10/15/2018 $710.00 eBay (pwcc_auctions) 352478185830
28639472 1953 TOPPS 82 MICKEY MANTLE EX-MT 6 4/11/2018 $5,213.00 eBay (pwcc_auctions) 401516087473
28639473 1953 TOPPS 82 MICKEY MANTLE EX-MT 6 3/12/2018 $5,111.00 eBay (pwcc_auctions) 401501294273
28639474 Altered, Min Size or Miscut
28639475 1954 TOPPS 201 AL KALINE NM 7 3/12/2018 $1,355.99 eBay (pwcc_auctions) 352295253228
28639476 1954 TOPPS 201 AL KALINE NM 7
28639477 1954 TOPPS 90 WILLIE MAYS NM 7 3/12/2018 $867.99 eBay (pwcc_auctions) 142708788304
28639478 1954 TOPPS 90 WILLIE MAYS NM-MT 8 4/12/2018 $3,150.00 eBay (pwcc_auctions) 401516736672
28639479 1954 TOPPS 90 WILLIE MAYS NM-MT+ 8.5 3/12/2018 $4,425.75 eBay (pwcc_auctions) 142708788480
28639480 Altered, Min Size or Miscut
28639481 1955 TOPPS 210 DUKE SNIDER NM-MT 8 4/12/2018 $2,820.00 eBay (pwcc_auctions) 352320809145
28639482 Altered, Min Size or Miscut
28639483 1957 TOPPS 170 DUKE SNIDER NM-MT 8
28639484 1957 TOPPS 30 PEE WEE REESE NM-MT+ 8.5
28639485 1957 TOPPS 1 TED WILLIAMS NM 7
28639486 1957 TOPPS 250 ED MATHEWS NM-MT 8
28639487 1957 TOPPS 250 ED MATHEWS MINT 9
28639488 Altered, Min Size or Miscut
28639489 Altered, Min Size or Miscut
28639490 1960 TOPPS 326 BOB CLEMENTE NM+ 7.5
28639491 1960 TOPPS 350 MICKEY MANTLE NM 7
28639492 1965 TOPPS 350 MICKEY MANTLE MINT 9 6/13/2018 $15,099.99 eBay (pwcc_auctions) 401546948071
28639493 Altered, Min Size or Miscut
28639494 1965 TOPPS 477 CARDINALS ROOKIES F.ACKLEY/S.CARLTON MINT 9 3/14/2018 $1,391.00 eBay (pwcc_auctions) 401502120856
28639495 1978 TOPPS 36 EDDIE MURRAY MINT 9
28639496 1952 BOWMAN LARGE 103 DON PAUL MINT 9 3/22/2018 $2,075.00 eBay (pwcc_auctions) 352303428798
28639497 1952 BOWMAN LARGE 127 OLLIE MATSON NM+ 7.5 3/22/2018 $4,049.00 eBay (pwcc_auctions) 352303429088
28639498 1955 BOWMAN 1 DOAK WALKER MINT 9 5/22/2018 $1,025.00 eBay (pwcc_auctions) 401536458782
28639499 1957 TOPPS 138 JOHN UNITAS EX+ 5.5
28639500 1957 TOPPS 138 JOHN UNITAS EX-MT 6
28639501 1957 TOPPS 138 JOHN UNITAS NM 7
28639502 1958 TOPPS 22 JOHN UNITAS NM 7
28639503 1948 BOWMAN 95 GEORGE McAFEE MINT 9 3/22/2018 $1,750.00 eBay (pwcc_auctions) 401506121528
28639504 Altered, Min Size or Miscut
28639505 Altered, Min Size or Miscut
28639506 1957 TOPPS CHECKLIST 1-154 TWIN BLONY EX-MT+ 6.5 3/22/2018 $3,706.23 eBay (pwcc_auctions) 142719534689
28639507 1961 FLEER 8 WILT CHAMBERLAIN NM 7
28639508 1957 TOPPS 33 LARRY COSTELLO NM 7
28639509 Altered, Min Size or Miscut
28639510 1957 TOPPS 17 BOB COUSY NM 7 3/20/2018 $1,332.07 eBay (pwcc_auctions) 142717452519
28639511 1957 TOPPS 77 BILL RUSSELL NM 7 4/22/2018 $14,877.00 eBay (pwcc_auctions) 352328565839
28639512 Altered, Min Size or Miscut
28639513 Altered, Min Size or Miscut
28639514 Altered, Min Size or Miscut

Good question. I haven't seen this paperwork yet, although to date they haven't mentioned an NDA. It largely sounds like it's memorializing the arrangement here. They pay me a bunch of money, they send the card back in an AA slab, and I agree that my claims are settled.

I share the same sentiment. It's a business plan these days. Of course it's all a Billion Dollar Fraud.;)

Seems like a bad business plan, in retrospect. You collected $100 on a card that now has $100,000 potential liability to you. You could be right 99.9% of the time and still lose.

If PSA is concerned about it, though, they are not acting like it. Their president is out stumping about how conscientious they need to be with their grading, because their guarantee is behind it.

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How was it a bad plan? IMO the entire growth of PSA, the set registry, the explosion in card prices and money inflow into the hobby, happened because of the supply of high grade holdered vintage cards. My supposition is that David Hall understood this from day one.

And the best part of the plan
 

is that a card goes into the back room, the door closes, and one, maybe two or three guys decide if it is an 8, 9 or 10. Talk about a brilliant concept. I'm still standing in awe.

So Lorewalker = Captspaulding = Rob Zombie = Chase Antley

This is a very educational thread. I will stay on the sidelines awhile to see if one of them responds.

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Most people don't realize the implications of what they're calling for. They also don't understand the scope of the problem. If PSA ends up having to pay out on even 1% of the claims that people are calling for, then PSA would just get rid of their guarantee program altogether, otherwise they'd be forced to close the doors. Then what? Where do we go from there? The other grading companies can't detect this stuff either. And they don't have guarantees anyhow.

Yeah, but do you think if they repudiated their guarantee, they would still be able to stay in business? And it's a serious question, I want to know what you think. You're their customer, not me.

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SGC doesn’t seem to have suffered any negative repercussions when they quietly decided to drop their guarantee.

Nobody cares.

If they discover they have a doctored high value card in their collection, they will probably care a lot more.

Meh -- most would just flip it if it bothered them and not go to war with PSA even with the guarantee. And it wouldn't bother most.

I think if PSA were to drop their guarantee tomorrow, it wouldn't affect them at all. Literally not one bit. And I'm usually hesitant about claims like that because I know how much a very small change in one variable can impact your bottom line (that's largely what statistical modeling is all about).

SGC dropped their guarantee and pentupled their business shortly after despite their biggest competitor proudly flaunting theirs. And buyers clearly don't care, as cards in SGC holders have set new records multiple times since then.

Ultimately, it's just not something the market cares enough about. They care more about hammer prices, accurate grades, and customer experience. Hence SGC has been chipping away at PSA's lead for the past few years.

Nobody looks at two of the same card, one in a PSA holder and one in an SGC holder and then says to themselves that they'd rather have the PSA because of the guarantee. They will buy whichever one looks better and is the better deal. Every time. And even if they have identical eye appeal and are the same price, they're still not using the guarantee as the tie breaker.

Not when they can just turn around and resell it though. That's why I was jokingly saying earlier for you to just sell me the Mays cheap and that I'd be happy to resell it for full market prices. These cards are EVERYWHERE. It's our entire hobby. It's not just a few cards here or there or even a few thousand cards or even a few hundred thousand cards. It's millions. Many millions. If you want to collect vintage cards then you can't escape it. Especially if you try to compete on the registry. Guys like Marshall Fogel's and Nat Turners' entire vintage collections are altered or improved in some way or another. And even the lower grade stuff gets improved as well. There is an army of people that compete for cards that have potential to be improved. A lot of the extreme outlier sales that seem outrageous or that people claim are shilled cards are actually cards that the buyers know they can get to bump 2 or more grades. I see it all the time. Someone will post a card on social media and everyone chimes in with "fake sale", then I look at the card and immediately spot why it sold for as much as it did. A lot of flaws can be fixed. Undetectably fixed. It is what it is.

Fixed it for ya!

It’s official now. They even kept the same cert.

I guess I’m not convinced that it would sell for full market price if it’s in the Tiffany Cards database. But perhaps I’m overestimating the number of people who are aware of the database.

Or I just figure that a number of collectors who are familiar with the database would be quick to jump on such a listing and inform the auction house that they’re trafficking in doctored cards, and demand that the listing either be removed or the doctoring be disclosed.

No disrespect to the great effort involved in that database, but I am guessing very few people check it before bidding on anything.

LOL - Nobody cares about that database. Even the majority of people who are aware of it still probably don't care.

Truth….this is the reality of it. The truth can be painful but at least it’s honest.

100 percent. Either they don’t know or don’t care. Most of the latter.

I think collectors care. Flippers and card doctors do not.


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No doubt. Card doctors can go Eff themselves.... as far as flippers, no, they only care about $$ too

I don't think there are true flippers. Most flip to help offset the growing expense of their own stash. Being card rich and cash poor is no fun.

Most of those guys are really running a small business. They just tell themselves and others it is a hobby to avoid paying taxes and running a legit business.

It is great the OP is getting some compensation for the altered card.

I love what Tiffany Cards and others do but I honestly can't imagine even 1/10 of 1% of collectors even know it exists. I don't know many PSA flip collectors but know many that collect PSA graded cards. I asked a few and nobody even checks the certs on PSAs website. I know I never have on a single PSA card I have purchased. Many people collect for fun and avoid all the BS to keep it fun for them. For some the BS is the fun part.

people really should check their SGC and PSA certs 1-2 times per year cards get deactivated out of the blue "months" after the purchase cert check. all it takes is someone to file a police report w/ that cert reported as stolen.

Collecting for fun to avoid the BS is exactly what the card doctors prey upon. They don’t want you to check certs and hate the altered card database bc it’s an easy way to check.


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Is it though? Is it really an easy way to check? When I tried to use it a couple of months ago I let the spreadsheet load for about 10 minutes and gave up. Have you looked into using an actual database instead of an Excel file? Postgres SQL is pretty easy to use and it's open source.

Also, the victims of the publishing of these certs are almost entirely the end collectors like raulus, not the card doctors. As you stated earlier, the card doctors don't care at all. PSA determines which certs are valid, not some person on the internet who comes up with her own definition of what it means for a card to be "altered". You can flag a card as "altered" but it isn't going to affect the hammer price of an auction as long as the cert is still valid.

I've even offered to soak a card (which you consider to be an "alteration") and put a sticker on the back with your logo on it, and to advertise it as being in your database. I said I think I could even sell it for more than an average copy. I wasn't joking. Do I have your permission to make a sticker with your logo on it and to sell it advertising your database? I'll even send you the before and after pics of the soaked card. It'll be a fun experiment.

When I tried to have a conversation with you about it, didn’t you try to get me banned from this forum? No need for a sticker when you could just disclose it in your listing. Do you have cards that you sold on the altered card database? Do you disclose it in your listings? Why not?

Grading companies are more reactive than proactive when it comes to decertifying cards. Which is why the altered card database exists. It’s not perfect, but it is easy and free to use.


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+1 👍🏻💯

https://www.tiffanycards.com/altered...abase/baseball

It took 6 seconds to load for me. It seems to work fine for everyone who does not have a vested interest in defrauding people. I'm so upset this completely free resource put together to help people without profit takes a few seconds to load :rolleyes:.

I know other collectors who use it too. Some of us shill for scamming and defrauding, a lot of us selectively support it when the right people do it, and some of us are against it but don't actually do anything about it but argue with shitposting scammers. Tiffany and BODA are pretty much the only people actually making any effort, to the collective gain of the rest of us that don't like the lies and frauds being perpetrated, to actually do something. It is a sad state that they are largely attacked because those efforts don't align with the fraud people want to commit or support.

Well stated, and thanks for posting the link.

It took about 11 seconds to load on my outdated cell phone. What a great resource… now that I have it, I’ll refer to it regularly and share with others.

Many thanks to Tiffany Cards and BODA. Really a shame that the people doing goodwill for the community (at their own time/expense) are shamed while profit-driven tone-deaf entities are defended and revered. “Professional graders” are no better at grading than most of the people here.

If by "tried to have a conversation with you" you mean you dodged all my questions like you did again here, then yes, you "tried to have a conversation". So I guess I'll extend you the same courtesy.

I see you're back to making shit up though. At no point did I ever try to get you banned. But just run with that since facts don't matter to you.

Lol. Ya, I'm calling bullshit on the 11 second load time.

It took about 15 seconds for the database to load so that I could search it. However, the message saying that the database was loading and please be patient with the spinning icon was still present even after I was able to search in it.

I have never made anything up. You can go back and read all the posts. Let’s try this again by starting with this 1952 Jackie Robinson. Can we both agree that these are the same cards? What is the sticker design that you would like to add to the card?https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...69381c0abc.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/202...128e3f43d0.jpg


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Again, I'm calling bullshit. It does not load in 15 seconds. It takes minutes to load. The webpage itself loads, and a few dozen rows of cards might load in 15 seconds, but the full excel file is not loading in 15 seconds.

Jackie
 

Let me guess. Only water was used, and there was nothing to disclose.

Now that's interesting. Why would someone crack out a PSA 3 only to resubmit and get a 3 again? And for the record, it wasn't me.

Also, I'm curious how you think the card got dirty again and how they restored the color? Do you think it was recolored too perhaps? How did the borders get dirty again while retaining the same cert number? This hobby sure is a mystery sometimes!

Also, NOT FOR SALE!

...

It also looks like it was even cleaned while still inside the original PSA 3 cert's slab (see first image comparison below). This is getting interesting now!

...

It is currently for sale on eBay. I noticed the price went up from $30k to $100k. https://www.ebay.com/itm/26631786764...mis&media=COPY

Is that the added value from being added to the altered card database? Imagine how much more it will go up once we agree on a sticker for it!


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I am not following. So Travis bought it already cleaned?

It's almost as if someone here has an agenda to make the card appear as though it has been chemically altered/bleached when it in fact has not. Look at the difference between your two images and the original listing image and how it actually looks currently. This card has not been altered. And not all cards listed on ebay are actually for sale. A lot of people list cards on ebay for Show & Tell and to bring buyers into their store or to start conversations.

Let's review how you arrived at these images and this very clear personal attack with your posting though (while simultaneously remaining anonymous by not posting your name along with your attacks - a clear forum violation that you are well aware of). First, you scowered through some ebay listings and found the card in its current holder looking like the image on the right below. Then you searched for prior sales of the card and found the image on the left below from a PWCC sale (again, not mine, as I did not buy it in that holder, but that's irrelevant). But using the original image from it's previous holder and the image from its current holder (both shown below) didn't fit your narrative. So you attempted to dig up worse images of the card that could paint it in a way that would better fit your agenda. So you dug up the PSA images (which you surely know are often completely blown out and almost never represent what any card actually looks like) and used those images as your before vs after comparisons to make the card appear as though it has been chemically bleached out (which it has not).

Again, who is the one being dishonest here? If you wonder why people don't care about your database it's because you put cards like this in it which have not been altered.

...

Yes, that is correct. And I love it. It's not for sale and probably never will be until I perish.

The fraud guy who just lied yet again and said it was not for sale while he actively has it up for sale vs. the guy who has a track record of trying to actually do something to help the dirtiness of this hobby. Man, this is a tough one to decide :rolleyes:

I will never cease to be amazed at just how brazenly and obviously you lie lol. It is absolutely hilarious.

The images I used all come from PSA. I doubt PSA is image bias.

Let’s stay focused on getting a sticker for this card.


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Again, for comparison so you can see them all side-by-side, the bottom row shows how this card actually looks/looked in both holders. The top row shows the cherry-picked/manipulated images used by the anonymous miss Tiffany to attack a forum member and make it appear as though the card had been chemically bleached out when it in fact has not been.

...

Another lie. You know damn well that PSA's images are garbage. Admit it, you first saw the images from the bottom row of my comparison collage above (the images which accurately represent the card), but those weren't good enough for you, so you went to the PSA website to see if you could dig up some worse images that might better fit your narrative.

I've asked you 4 times if I have your permission to put stickers on cards with your logo. You dodged the question all 4 times. This is the last time I'll ask. Do I have your permission to put stickers on cards using your logo?

It would help your case and credibility if you would stop blatantly lying about things that do not even matter, like having the card for sale. When you just openly lie in ways that are really, really easy to prove in 10 seconds about things that don't even matter, it is impossible to seem honest or take any accusations of dishonesty you make about anyone else seriously. You are the poster child for dishonesty and lying when you keep provably lying all the damn time lol.

The card is listed on ebay for many multiples of what it is worth. Nobody is going to pay the listed price for it, nor the previously listed price, nor anything remotely near it. I have zero intentions of selling it. It is there for show & tell. It might be my favorite card in my entire collection. This is not a difficult concept to grasp. PSA 3s go for between $6k to $10k. This one was listed for $30k which I changed to $100k in case there was any confusion about it actually being "for sale". It's listed on ebay, yet it is not "for sale". If you can't understand that concept, then I don't know what to tell you.

Let’s start with the Jackie listed on eBay. Put your mock design sticker on it. If I approve, then I will give you permission to use it on your other cards. I won’t even charge you a royalty.


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If you cannot understand the titanic gulf between this statement and actively having it for sale, I don't know what to tell you except you should not be calling anyone else dishonest.

You have an audience here who mostly loves fraudsters (check out how many of them get pissed off the moment anyone criticizes convicted fraudsters who run auction houses!). If you'd just stop blatantly lying all the time you'd get so much support for your schtick. In this one single thread you have accused people of using false names for literally using their actual name and claimed you would never put a card up for sale that is actively and publicly listed for sale. Just stop lying, it is not hard lol

I’m not sure what you are even talking about. You seem to be flailing all over the place. When would I have seen your image collage?? At least we agree that they are in fact the same card. If you want, then I would be happy to discuss the differences I pointed out in the images with you. In not a single post did I mention anything about bleaching. Who is attacking you or manipulating images?? I never said this was your card.

Even if we use your images from your collage, you can clearly see the stain on the top right border is no longer present on the cert 76513639. Where did the stain go??? The stain has been removed. Which is why this card was added to the altered card database.


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This is a classic example of what I keep talking about over and over and over. Someone on a web forum calls out a card and posts inaccurate/manipulated images that do not actually represent what the card looks like or looked like, or in this case both. Then they post these doctored before vs after images to make it appear as though something has been done to a card which in fact has not been done to it (in this case the implication is clearly that some sort of chemical bleaching/ateration has occurred). And you bought it hook line and sinker, because hey, look at those images! Yet, in hand, the card itself clearly has off-white dirty borders and has not been bleached at all, as also evidenced by the more accurate scans posted above. The very scans that Tiffany originally found of the card yet intentionally ignored because they didn't fit her agenda.

https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...ap%20fight.gif
https://photos.imageevent.com/exhibi...er%20great.jpg

Here you go again with your disingenuous deceptive bullshit. Just admit that you intentionally chose the washed-out-looking PSA scan and the dirty looking prior PSA scan instead of the PWCC scan because they were a better fit for your agenda and it make it appear as though the card has been chemically bleached when it in fact has not.

When asked by Peter_Spaeth "So Travis bought it already cleaned?" you replied, "Yes, that is correct." So you acknowledge that the card has been cleaned. Why are you continuing with the false narrative that the images are manipulated?? If you have a problem with PSA images, then take it up with them. Again your own images show the stain had been removed from the card.

Now, please get back on the topic of labeling cards that are on the altered card database. Let's see your mock up!

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GPVmHq_X...pg&name=medium

Just trying to catch up on this one and apologize for not going through everything. Is the dispute over whether the Jackie currently has that discoloration in the upper right or whether its removal constitutes alteration or something else?

Excellent! Now that you've accurately represented the card, perhaps we should discuss what is and is not an alteration since you claim to be maintaining a database of "altered" cards. As we all know, soaking a vintage card in water and letting it dry is not an alteration. So why is this card in your database again?

No not everyone just those that do it claim that.

Tiffany wanted to "out" me for bleaching/altering a card that hasn't even been bleached and that wasn't even cleaned by me. She will try to disingenuously claim that she never said it was bleached, but we all know why she chose those scans instead of the ones that show what the card actually looks like. Just another classic hit job by the hobby princess.

And those that grade them and whose opinions actually matter. Soaking a vintage card in water has always been an acceptable practice by every grading company whether you like it or not.

Snowman said he wanted to make stickers to be placed on cards that are on the altered card database. I provided him a card that is on the altered card database that he can make his mock up sticker for.

Snowman disagreed with the images I posted (which came from PSA), so he then posted his own images. I think he is trying to show that the card has not been improved by removing the stain, but even his own images show that the stain is gone. Hopefully, his own images will be enough for him to finally stop going off on a tangent and refocus back to creating a sticker.

We do not know what the card was soaked in. You said that you did not clean the card. Based on the before and after pictures the card does show evidence of being altered. I hope that the card was not soaked in tap water, even Kurt has said to never do that. Based on PSAs most recent comments even soaking a card in water is not acceptable. Therefore, the card was added to the altered card database.

The altered card database is not the judge, jury or executioner as to what is or isn't an altered card. That role belongs to the person that wants to purchase the card. The altered card database is an educational tool that provide collectors with information about cards.

False

True

False

It was not

Since when did you start listening to Kurt's opinions?

False

True

Really? You don't say. And here I was thinking it mattered. Boy do I feel silly.

It sounds awesome! I'll let you know what I find in there just as soon as it finishes loading (it's currently at 4 min 27 seconds and counting...)

We do not know what the card was soaked in.
Response: Only the person that cleaned the card knows what it was soaked in. Please share with us who cleaned the card, so that they can confirm what they soaked it in.




Based on the before and after pictures the card does show evidence of being altered.

Response: Before and After pics show a stain removed. Are you disputing your own images?




Based on PSAs most recent comments even soaking a card in water is not acceptable.
"We are fine with blowing on it or using a dab of water or using microfiber to clean it," said Ryan Hoge, president of Collectors, parent company of PSA. "But when you are doing much more, we are not on board." https://www.cllct.com/sports-collect...ing-rejections




Good news, we are making progress. However, we are all still waiting for your sticker.

You can call it whatever you want, but after about 15 seconds, there were rows from the database displayed. I then did Ctrl-F and searched for Williams and it showed a count of 97 and took me to the first example which was Billy Williams near the bottom of the list.

https://media1.giphy.com/media/xUPGc...6jZu/giphy.gif
Some people will never figure it out.


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I doubt a simple soaking in water would remove a water stain like that.

Yes, it 100% can. For people trying to avoid buying cleaned cards, I highly recommend watching online content to see how it’s done or better yet, simply buy a few old vintage common cards to try it yourself. That’s how I learned to help avoid buying cleaned cards at shows & in auctions. I taught myself how to spot cleaned cards (not perfect but helps). Dr Beckett talked many times on his podcast about high grade vintage cards looking unnatural. That is why I think over 50% of mid to high end vintage cards have been cleaned at some point. I remember dealers taking about soaking cards during the 1980s as a kid. That’s why I think many of us have unknowingly cleaned cards in our vintage collections whether we are aware of not. It’s up to you to believe it or remain ignorant

E.g. I work in IT Security & Integration Program Mgt. How do you think we learn to continuously protect our systems? Like the FBI, other companies, etc… we hire, attend lectures , & study former hackers to teach ourselves. We just don’t guess or reuse online posts. Like most things in life, need to study the opposition to learn.

Snowman can you provide the cert # or the additional images of the 1953 Jackie Robinson when it was in a PSA 2.5 holder? Thanks
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GPZgNocb...ng&name=medium

Maybe it’s because I can’t afford them but whenever I see a clean card with sharp corners pre-1960 I tend to think it’s been worked on (or found in a Black Swamp).