lol! :d

Best quote of the day and here is the best loophole in response:

I am not married. Oh, the onslaught is coming.

.

I agree...because of this thread the vast majority of us know more about this set, and now we have convincing evidence on how these cards were distributed (those boy suits must have been butt ugly). To the logical mind knowledge is always a good thing. So thank you Brian for setting the wheels in motion.

Brian

Thank you Aaron. :D ;)

This should be the perfect finale to this thread. Many have already left the room, including old MT himself, I imagine.
Love your Honus labels. Hope all well. John

I think we’ve learned survival rates for pre-war cards are incredibly low, I suspect well under 1% from the datasets. For example, using the printers record books and court testimony I have accounted for a minimum of 21,000,000 T225 series 1 cards printed. 25 subjects of equal printing = 840,000 of each produced, at least. I’d be surprised if there’s even 2,500 of each still around today. I’d project about 1 in 500 made it to 2023 for these. I’d think the 1920’s stuff wouldn’t be a lot better off, maybe a little.

I think 1914 Cracker Jacks say 15 million were made and I think of those as difficult to find.

I was guessing 100 sets of 1921 Herpolsheimer because I thought they would hope to sell a suit a day for that Summer. It could be much higher like 500.

At this point, we are feeding the troll. Thanks again to Steve. Hasta la vista.......

Brian, is this all just a ruse to prevent other bidders from bidding against you? ;)

I'm talking with Greg about 1921 Herpolsheimers card populations. BrianVH's theory has been debunked. I don't consider discussing this obscure set feeding a troll.

Well now I’m going to go bid on one of two of these

LOL!

Under the following logic:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyp9fh-u4w8

Brian,

Now, in 2034 a boy's suit from Herpolsheimer's with a tag on the neck on the inside of the back identifying Herpolsheimer's will be found with, believe it or not, Herpolsheimer cards in the moth holed breast pocket. Amazingly, the cards, which will be of different levels of wear will be collectible. A miracle! To summarize the finding:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iyp9fh-u4w8

Rob,

Just one note. I still disagree. The cards are fake and peer pressure has never affected me.

These are all fake! I can prove it.

So my Great Grandfather was Arthur Slugworth. He owned a competing boys suit company around the corner on 6th and Racine called Slugworth Inc. He wanted to steal business away from Herpolsheimers and had those cards made without the address on the back. He placed the ads in the local papers and when customers came looking to buy a boys suit and get the cards he would pop out from behind the Herpolsheimer display and whisper in their ears to meet him around the corner at his Slugworth Inc. store. He successfully sold 133 boys suits in this way which led to the downfall and eventual bankruptcy of Herpolcheimers.

Lol! :D

I have no idea on how many Herpolsheimer sets would have been made, 100, 500, 1,0000.

Part of the problem is that the quantity known today is usually impossible to know outside of the sets so rare the hobby keeps perfect track of them; even if we had all production data for everything we'd be missing another of the 2 figures for most sets. And what the hobby knows and tracks is different from what survives as we keep finding cards that have not previously hit the market or hobby before (usually they are just T206's or something and not that exciting, but new to the hobby).

The surviving data on the T cards suggests to me a survival rate of somewhere between .1 and .4%. But even assuming this is all correct and my deductions perfect, it doesn't mean other card types survive at the same rate. Cracker Jacks could be vastly different because they were issued in a product more for kids, an audience to keep the cards, got their hands on or less because of the crappy thin stock. The 1914's mention the 15,000,000 figure but it's not quite clear that is the entirety of the print run. Other cards mention 10,000,000 as the print run, so it may have been a made-up claim to sound important in the first place. 15,000,000 would be 104,166.67 of each card printed. There's not more than, I don't know, 300-400 or so of each one today? That would put it in similar survival range.

With how Herpolsheimers were distributed, evidently entirely for kids, I would guess their survival rate would be a bit higher. For very rare sets though the luck factor of a stash surviving is far more significant.

I mean debunked in my opinion by SteveD's findings. It would help if Todd agreed with you, as he is in my opinion, a/the vocal expert on these backs.

I think the dealer you spoke with had no way of confirming what he had in 1999. It's fine with me for you to maintain what you believe. I was stating what I believe.

On the Herpolsheimer's, I think the ad that SteveD found convinces me that they gave them out with the suits, and these were circulated in Grand Rapids in 1921, but there may not be any more left to be found.

No problem, Rob. If you are bidding on them, best of luck. As I mentioned earlier, the only I even considered was the Davenport to go with my two real Davenports. Still, with other auctions and the holidays, I have better uses for my funds. I still might bid on something tonight non-Herpolsheimer.

Happy Holidays,

Brian

Brian - maybe you explained this before, just curious. Is you position:

(a) all of the Herpolsheimers that have been identified to date are counterfeits

(b) the series never existed and therefore all the Herpolsheimers that have been identified to date are fantasy cards

(c) there was a series that existed and could be real cards out there, but believe these are counterfeit because they are the same ones I saw at a show and some guy told me about them, or

(d) something else

Genuinely wondering.

Yes; I'm addressing the quantity though. I am not disputing the ads in any way, shape or form.

Steve,

I understand:

(a) all of the Herpolsheimers that have been identified to date are counterfeits

This thread has a Linus Van Pelt/The Great Pumpkin vibe to it. And lots of pissed off Sally Browns.

Actually, I was thinking it has some good educational value with a large dose of Kyrie Irving.

LOL!

PLEASE forgive me for this idea.

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE use that in court one day. I guarantee it will be quoted by other lawyers for decades and centuries to come.

:D

You keep using that word…

Re-count. Three words abbreviated.

:D

I agree with what you are saying on populations and adding my opinion that this small town department store probably only ordered a 1000 or far fewer sets to give away, and it's surprising that any cards with this back survived at all. Before I saw the ad, I assumed they were uncirculated and kept by the staff.

Thanks. Have a great weekend. Appreciate your views always.

A further note, according to an ad I found from 1922, Herpolsheimer's was celebrating their 52nd anniversary that spring/summer; so, they had been around since 1870. Also, according to the ad, Grand Rapids was the 2nd-largest city in Michigan, with a population of around 140K-150K, and Herpolsheimer's was the "greatest" store in western Michigan. So, they obviously didn't feel the need for much more than basic advertising.....everyone knew who they were, and where they were located; they started at one location, and then later, moved directly across the street.

If you look on ebay, you'll also find Victorian era trade cards advertising their store.

Also, thank you to everyone for the kind words; I greatly appreciate them.

Steve

I wouldn't make too much of the address issue. After all, Brian posted a 1921 Standard Biscuit card he owns and it does not have an address on the back. It also has a border design inferior to the Holsum Bread card he posted. And the Standard Biscuit card is real...or is it?

Depends. The ones with the fake back stamp or the real ones?

neither do evidence and facts apparently...

LOL! The day after the auction and saving money.

Well, you should really be ashamed and embarrassed of yourself. I think your post was a clear attempt to interfere with Al's auction. Luckily it backfired spectacularly.

Kudos to all the collectors here on Net54 who have been able to add one of these cards to their collection.

My hope is that the Ruth pops up in the LOTG Fall 2023 wins thread. Wouldn't that be something?

Dan,

It's a free country. Spend the way you want. Not ashamed of the truth.

Considering Brian originally aired his views in 2004, I think that is an unfounded and unfair comment.

Brian... are you proposing All of the herpolsheimers 1916 and 1921 are fake. And by fake. Do you mean genuine copies blank backs with a fake stamp? Or is the card itself fake?

Pete,

Good to hear from you and Happy Holidays.

The 1916 Herpolsheimer cards are real. The "1921", which I have handled at a show are NOT. Not a back stamp like a strip card in the production.

I could not disagree more. He admitted that he posted to discourage bidding. He made feeble attempts to say "bid as you wish" while stating multiple--multiple--times not that he believed the cards to be fakes, but as a matter of fact they were fakes. Not just 19 years ago-- but in the weeks during an ongoing auction, when he himself chose to revive the idiocy. He did not couch his remarks in terms of his opinion; in fact, he has no independent opinion, but instead relies exclusively on a single encounter from nearly 20 years ago. Only now does he offer the BS additional remarks that the design is inferior and that the card must be fake because a real one would have included the advertiser's street address. Absurd nonsense. And still doubling down, rather than admit he might be, could in the realm of possibility, be wrong.

I will not do business with him again.

Brian clearly has a strongly held and unshakeable belief that the Herpolsheimer's cards are not real.

So maybe he can clarify why the 1921 Standard Biscuit Davenport card he owns is real (see post 182) and the Davenport in the LOTG auction is fake (see below).

They are both graded by PSA, have no address on the back, and have a border pattern on the back inferior to the Holsum Bread pattern. In all seriousness, is there something I am missing here? Is there any more to it than "a dealer in 1999 told me the Herpolsheimer's are fake"?

Just like your stupid "Waner" RPPC you're inability to handle the truth is breathtaking. If you're not ashamed of your behavior or at least embarrassed by it, you should be. I suppose in the end we should all be thanking you for your dogged stupidity as it did bring to light irrefutable proof the cards are real.

The market has spoken. I'm not following why he has to conform. His questions prompted the research that cleared up many questions about the cards' origins. I don't see anyone else agreeing with him. I would think Al and his sellers are overjoyed with the end results. I did bid, but did not win any. I already have a nice e121 Jack Graney that I paid $40 for. Am I allowed to say, "I already have the Jack Graney and like the American Caramel backs better."?

Oh, Thank You! Thank You! Thank you!

I was actually hoping that would come up in this thread.

I confirmed it with a Waner relative that was Paul Waner.

Happy Holidays!

I love your last statement.

thx. I used to own the 1916 cobb that I believe jeff has..and it always looked fine to me...albeit overgraded by psa!!!!!

Pete,

Not properly graded by PSA. Oh, wait.

slim...is slim!

Pete,

Yes, Slim is Slim but slimmer and just not in graded 5 excellent shape despite PSA's grade. The card is trimmed. I will let you compare it with another grading from the set which is by SGC. The Peckinpaugh (properly spelled) should actually be a SGC 10 Poor 1 because it measures. For your viewing pleasure and comparison.

If you are a printer-and complete disclosure here beyond any need-and my uncle was one, you can get access to the proper paper for a fraud. That includes timeframe and type. Not difficult in either circumstance. Just so we're clear here, this subject never came up between my uncle and myself. He is deceased but was living past the time of the May 1999 meeting at the Robert Morris show with the dealer.

So you're saying the subject never came up between you and your uncle? If you said your uncle was a printer and thought the cards were a fraud, that at least would be one other opinion. But I don't think you are saying that.

I think you are saying that the cards could be a fraud because a printer could come up with paper to use to make fake cards. Actually, I think you are saying the cards are a fraud because it is possible to access paper to commit a fraud. I think by that logic, every card that exists could be a fraud.

I have a ten dollar bill in my wallet. It is possible for someone to make counterfeit ten dollars bills. That does not mean my ten dollar bill is counterfeit.

I am also not clear what distinguishes your 1921 Standard Biscuit Davenport as being real and the LOTG Herpolsheimer's Davenport as being fake. By your logic, they both could be fake.

[I am not sure why I keep trying to have a logical discussion when I think Brian is just messing with us at this point.]

That's why I was asking him earlier in this thread if he knew something we don't. Like he and his cousin watched his cousin's stepdad make these in the 70's. People did make repros in the 70's. I no longer am concerned about it and he is free to believe what he wants.

LOL, ANYBODY with a library card can get the proper paper. Thing is new printing on old paper is very easy to see if you know what to look for. For complete disclosure I know a little more than the average person about printing.:D

Don't get me wrong I know for a fact there are a ton of amazing counterfeits out there. Take any picture to any printer and they can make as many perfect copies as you want. There is NO reason this can't just as easily be done with simple baseball cards. Now it actually happening is a very rare thing for a LOT of reasons.

Michael,

Forgive me, but I am getting carpal tunnel from LOL! Not messing with you, but HIGHLY enjoying this thread.

I met the dealer in May 1999 and he told me with his hand going over the cards that they were not real and made in the 1970's. I also handled the cards with concern about the design which looked like, in my opinion, something influenced by the disco era, but I digress.

On my uncle, I simply mentioned him because of complete disclosure on my side.

To follow up on your one paragraph:

"I think you are saying that the cards could be a fraud because a printer could come up with paper to use to make fake cards. Actually, I think you are saying the cards are a fraud because it is possible to access paper to commit a fraud. I think by that logic, every card that exists could be a fraud."

Right now, it is a printer by trade and not a computer printer. As time goes on old (the type of paper) will meet up with the new/evolving with Artificial Intelligence. And in some auctions, Love of the Game not included, there will be shill bidding to boot.

Both of the Davenports I have from 1921 (Holsum Bread and Standard Biscuit) are original. The only thing about the 1970's Herpolsheimer is that it is possible that the printer who made the cards was inspired by ad border design and updated to disco floor.

Now, to converse with your subconscious in brackets. There are always two sides to a matter.

I'm entertained, but not buying it or the "1921" (not) Herpolsheimer's cards.

The weird part about your theory of fake cards Brian is...

the subjects included in the "fake" Herpolsheimer cards line up perfectly with the D350 Standard Biscuit and Holsum Bread (Type 2) set perfectly as VERY early 1921 sets and pre-date the earliest version of the E121 Series 80 set because by the time the E121-80 set was printed many of the "dropped" cards had been eliminated from the lineup.

WHAT MAKES THIS INTERESTING?

This knowledge is only known by me and a handful of other people in the entire world and was known by nobody in the 1970's.

And, when I say they line up perfectly...I mean there are 0 outliers! There is not a single mistake made in the Herpolsheimer's checklist and includes copies of cards that were not known to exist in the "E121 family of sets" in the 1970's...like the Davenport card (which is only included in the sets listed above and 1-2 copies in the world as a W575-1)

With all due respect you are being ridiculous about this subject and you seem to really have a hard time with admitting when you are wrong.

I am done with this conversation at this point and would advise everyone to stop "feeding the troll" as Brian is obviously not looking at anything here objectively and is (I can only imagine at this point) is somehow getting pleasure from his troll behavior.

LOL!

Thank you for feeding me, Rhett.

Now, Peckinpaugh/Peckinbaugh. Let's hear the response.

Happy Holidays

Polar Express
 

I’ve never seen Herpolsheimers cards until this thread. Very cool!

As a quick aside, was watching the Polar Express with my kids and the kids on the train yell, “Herpolsheimers!!!”

It made me laugh out loud, hope everyone has a great Christmas season!

Sorry for hi-jacking the thread…

Now, back to arguing about the authenticity of the cards, ha!

Matt,

Happy Holidays to you as well.

How dare you, it should be a 6!

https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/...63235d1f_z.jpg

haha...it WAS a 6 wasn't it! with that corner!!!! Is that the same card???

Are you thinking of the fake 1921 Cobb? That’s a PSA 6MK. With the $5 written on the back in pencil.

Thank you, Jeffrey, and my apologies.

The card you posted on 7-20-2009 at 09:58 PM is the Cobb I saw at the Robert Morris show the next to last Saturday in May 1999. In case anybody wonders, although the October show has gone away and the show has moved to Monroeville, the one constant is the show always begins the third Friday of May.

https://www.net54baseball.com/showth...+Herpolsheimer

One more note:

There were a few of the group in the case in May 1999 that were not marked in price on the back. Do I have a memory of which? No. Do I have a memory of the Cobb. YES! Yes, I handled the card.

what, no address on the back? Must be a fake...

LOL!

Now, now, now. Even the fakes from "1921" (sarcasm highlighted in quotation marks) have second floor. Let's remember fraud etiquette.

2nd floor is the location of the Boys dept. where the cards were given out with the purchase of a boy's suit. That's how department stores worked. It's not an address.

Scott,

Thank you and I understand, but you may want to rephrase the response, because the poster before me made the argument no address must be a fraud.

OMG, that was me also, and it was joke.

Lol!

I have to admit, I read this thread now and it actually does make me laugh out loud.

Sorry, but no discount on the veal with this stage show.

Maybe i had the fakey!

I wonder how long this thread will go before someone threatens to sue themself.


(it has happened before)

Check Vegas for the odds in the morning.

I side with Jeff,Leon and Al
 

This is the dumbest thread I think I have ever read. They are fake because some guy told me they were. He offered no proof but he said they were so he’s right because he said it like 25 years ago. Screw the opinions of several incredibly knowledgeable pre war card experts who have owned examples and handled them raw. I’m going to believe some dude who’s name I can’t even remember. What a truly asinine position to take. I mean seriously there are plenty of things I disagree with Leon and Jeff about but this sure as hell is not one of them. You have offered zero credible evidence that these are fake absolutely none. Just constantly repeating the same vague bs isn’t proof.

With so many views on this, I may as well chime in that I'm always in the market for 1916 Herpolsheimers. Real ones preferred, but my group of fakes looked real enough to fool PSA, so will consider good fakes. Back printing on your fakes should be inconsistent as well.

Wow, this is an all-time thread. Like others I enjoy printmaking so, FWIW, with a fairly quick search I was able to find both borders available in the 1930s and 40s, so the border in question was definitely available before the 1970s.

https://archive.org/details/LanstonM...e/n23/mode/2up

A typographical specimen booklet containing borders and ornaments for casting on the Lanston Monotype Composition Caster, Lanston Monotype Type-Caster, Lanston Monotype Giant Caster and Monotype-Thompson Type-Caster. This booklet is from a Lanston Monotype specimen book (binder) bearing the general title "Monotype Type Faces." It is undated, but based on internal evidence elsewhere in the binder it is from the late 1930s or early 1940s.