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rea ran a 1980 topps pepsi set vs individual cards a few years back. i dont remember exactly if it all ended at same time, but indiviudal cards won out. just providng another example of set vs individual cards being run by major auction house. does anyone remember if it all closed at once. again, probably a moot point here since heritage screwed the pooche here |
This reminds me of the REA computer glitches in overtime when, if I remember correctly, some items showed that they were closed when in fact they weren’t. I still think the cards should be reauctioned and, unlike others, I think that everyone should be able to bid (I’m sure the consignor agrees with me). I would end the auction for all lots at a fixed time to avoid a repeat of this issue. Otherwise, you can use the same software; you just need a total vs parts page.
As for the consignor being happier if the cards stay together I agree, unless of course it costs him any money. |
I agree, Jay. Ultimately the consigner’s wishes should be honored first. Who knows, he may want the cards to sell as they just did.
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These auction companies are moving hundreds of millions of dollars through their catalogs annually.
Pay the team of 10 software engineers their juicy six figure salaries and bonuses to make your website and tools as modern as possible. I hope Heritage has a way to work with all the parties involved here and ensure this never happens again. |
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Gehrig steal
I felt like something like this would happen so i focused and picked up the Gehrig rookie. Cant believe the price i got this at.
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I believe that Heritage is the biggest auction house in the world by volume, so their reputation is of paramount importance and a mess up such as this might frighten their huge customer base. I don't know how this is going to play out but a public apology would be a good start.
My buddy Aaron mentioned that he has already been invoiced for the beautiful Baker. If he pays immediately then a contract has been made with an offer and acceptance then fulfilled and he legally owns the card. Any court would agree. Powell is quite obviously a large and valued customer of Heritage and has a valid case to claim all the lots. Heritage cannot dismiss his claim with crying "software glitch". Heritage is a legally incorporated company with shareholders, officers etc. not a computer. No matter how this all shakes out but the bluebird of unhappiness is going to land on someone. Finally, I always thought that this AH gimmick of single lots versus total aggregate was just a way to entice bidders to open their wallets a bit more than they normally might. |
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What a mess. This thread needs more pictures.
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Yoda,
I respectfully disagree. The offer and acceptance already occurred when i was the high bidder and the set closed. My account confirmed I was the winner. The post contract invoice to Aaron (and no disrespect to Aaron) and any payment by him is a nullity. The contract was formed by the high bid when the set lot closed and while ratification is not necessary it was ratified by Heritage afterward with it indicated in my account as a win Friday night and Saturday morning. I still believe Heritage will do the right thing but haven’t heard a response yet from a person with authority. I hope my faith in Heritage doesn’t prove misplaced and put me in a very angry place. |
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Congrats on a monster pickup |
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Powell
I agree after reading all the posts that you should be the winner and the individual bidders sadly lost out. I would be clueless how to make it right and it is ugly to all parties. It is amazing any auction house that does an auction this way would not have a set policy and software infrastructure to handle this. Heritage is a top notch auction and it will be interesting to see how this plays out. People talk compensation but how do you compensate for losing out on a extremely rare item and the people that lose out thinking they were winning their item potentially did not bid on other items they passed on to get the Boston Store. So I do not know what compensation/amount makes up for not getting you rare card I hope for all it works out as best as possible. But sadly I do not think it will or know how it will |
If I were Powell, I'd be livid. In my own personal opinion, he should be the winner and Heritage needs to make it right with the cosigner and the individual bidders....whatever that means. Heritage has over $1Bn in revenues and this is just unacceptable. I don’t want to throw around negligence, but damn, it’s bonkers that a company of their magnitude and presence could make such a disastrous mistake. There’s a good reason they aren’t public… The mistake should never have happened...period. Again, I’d be livid.
With that said, Heritage, of course has crafted their T&C with some outs. The easiest out is the idiotic clause about any disagreement can be settled by Heritage and redoing the auction – someone quoted it earlier…I can’t find it. Quote:
In the end, I hope they do the right thing and everyone is made hole in some way. I stated my view which is Powell deserves the win here. just sucks how it was done. -Darius |
Powell--Regardless of what your HA page said, how could you ever have won the lot? The auction indicates that the cards will either go to the individual bidders or the aggregate bidder, whichever yields a higher total. These would have to be compared when the auction is closed and if I understand the facts correctly when the auction closed the individual bids exceeded your bid.
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What you might have missed is that since the total set closed due to no other bidders and thus he could not increase his bids if the individual bids were higher. So his closed at the 30 minute limit with no other bids and some of the individuals stayed open. Those extra times they went up and exceeded his total set bid. And he could not raise his bid above them since the system closed him out |
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He was handicapped by Heritage to bid further. He entered a bogus contract if you ask me. Well, Heritage made it bogus. my two cents |
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Respectfully, you are mistaken on both points.
First, the premise. The Heritage site accepted my bid as the high bidder. I waited the full 30 minutes and no one out bid me. The Heritage site said I won and no more bids were allowed for the set. It was locked out because the cards were sold too me and the win was reflected on my account Friday night and Saturday morning. Second, I relied on the Heritage site saying I won the set. There was no reason for me to believe other lots were still open. The set was sold to me as the hammer went down when the timer expired. It would be nonsensical for me to disregard the Heritage site closing the set lot with me as high bidder and put the burden on me to look up 12 other lots and add them up after I won. That’s Heritage’s job and not mine. Third, an astute member on this board (check out earlier posts) did add them up and the set was winning at over the individual lots at the time the set was sold to me. He was aghast that (after I went to sleep as the winner) that the individual lots were allowed to bid but not the closed set lot and overtook the set. It’s clear and obvious that I won fair and square. |
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This really shouldn't have been that hard. |
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Fair, or at least equal, where the bidders are concerned is achievable, but there is no perfect solution. |
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The wording wasn't the problem because no one in their right mind thought it would work the way it did. The software wasn't the problem. It was the setup that was the problem (heritage problem). The wording like most of the time was insufficient in my opinion, but not the problem...but will be one of the factors the courts look too...if it gets that far. |
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Sounds like HA didn't connect the individual lots and the set lot on the backend software. IMO, HA should award the set to Powell and pay the delta to the consigner. |
Reliance
It seems to me Powell has a very good and reasonable reliance argument.
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If all lots ( set and individual cards) closed after no bids for 30 minutes, then the individual cards would have been the winner , as it turned out.
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Mile High and other auction houses that utilizes the set bid or bids of cards comprising the set format, as the Boston Garters, uses Simple Auction site or Create Auction software. It appears Heritage uses software they or another company beside Simple and Create developed which is why Mile High and other auction companies have not encountered this problem. |
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To recap, and repeat, the simplest way to view this, I think, is that the set lot never should have closed while bidding was still going on for the individual lots. That effectively foreclosed Powell from competing at the end. It seems a simple analysis in terms of the equities. It will certainly be interesting to see Heritage's response.
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Boston Garters
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Such a scenario can never work in an "individual lot closing" format and these problems should've been foreseen. This will cost Heritage dearly, not to mention the Consignor (who left A LOT of money on the table). |
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Hot take... And I apologize if this comes off harshly, because it almost certainly will. Please don't take this personally. But I feel this needs to be said.
First off, what a tran wreck! But this was all very predictable from the moment this auction was posted. The warning provided in each listing was clear as day: Quote:
To bid on the set and not on the individual lots as well was taking a huge gamble, if you wanted to win. You're taking a gamble that not only would you be willing to outbid the sum of the individual lots, but that someone else would too. If you read the listing, then you knew you'd lose if the individual lots outbid you. You backed the wrong horse. You should have been bidding on the individual lots, or on both, if you wanted to ensure a win. To only bid on the set was to back one horse in a two horse race. Powell keeps declaring by fiat that him being the high bidder on the set at the time that lot closed somehow just magically nullifies the other individual auctions. This is of course ridiculous. He is just invoking this magical rule because it's the only way he wins. Nowhere is it stated that if the set stops receiving action that it will end the bidding for the individual lots as well. That is an assumption made by Powell, and we all know what they say about assumptions. The listing clearly states that the winner of the set listing will only be the true winner if the individual lot sums do not exceed the set hammer price. But they did. So Powell loses. It's pretty clear to anyone reading the listing. There is no scenario whatsoever that Heritage is going to award this lot to Powell. I'm sorry, but that's just not happening. And I'd be happy to place a side bet on that prediction, in case any of you hot shot lawyers want to put some money where your mouth is. What if there were two bidders who really wanted the Joe Jackson and who were prepared to go to war over that card? The two of them battling it out all throughout the night, eventually bidding it up to $2 million. But at the time that the full set stopped receiving action, it was only at $50k. What then? Heritage is just supposed to cut in on their battle in the top of the 2nd inning and declare it over because the full set lot stopped getting action? Lol. I'm sorry, but that's ridiculous. This is just wishful thinking. Anyone who read that listing should have read the disclaimer at the bottom and should have known they would lose if the individual lots received sufficient bids to overcome their set hammer price by the end of the night. That said, this was a TERRIBLE strategy by Heritage to begin with, given their software is not capable of handling a dual auction in a fair manner to all bidders on both sides. All lots should be tied together, and the set bidders should be allowed to continue placing bids (even against themselves) if the individual lots exceed the set lot. But that's not how it was set up, so what they *should have done* isn't really relevant. Heritage has two options. They can either allow the results to stand with the individual winners being awarded the cards, as they are the clear and rightful winners per the rules stated in the auctions, or they can recognize that the way they set up the dual format was stupid and resulted in Powell not being able to continue bidding even though he had been effectively "outbid", and they can extend the auction to allow all bidders to continue placing bids on all 13 lots. But they can't just award the set to Powell. That's not an option. He didn't win. Not according to the rules clearly stated in the auction. All he won was part A of a two part bidding process. But he lost part B, so he didn't win. He should have fallen asleep crossing his fingers that night. How he could have possibly assumed he had already won is beyond me. I certainly would have known better, were I in his shoes. |
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Respectfully, I disagree. The set lot closed and Heritage reported me as the winner both on the lot and in my account. It’s not by “fiat” or “hot shot” lawyering it’s the plain language of the rules and the inherent nature of an auction. Once the gavel drops and the set was sold it’s over. It’s absurd to say that individual lots could be bid to later overtake the set after the bidding on the set was locked out —that’s clearly wrong.
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I’ll repost the below from my earlier post and inquire: has Powell receive the confirmation email and invoice for the lot? Or does he have a screenshot from the ‘You Won’ confirmation as evidence for HA evaluation and consideration?
According to HA Web Tips (linked below at end): Heritage Live FAQ: ‘How do I know if I won the lot? When the lot closes a message in green indicating you won will be displayed (see example below). In addition, you can check the item status in the "Realized Prices" tab. You Won!’ HOWEVER, further down this reference page under Bidding Guidelines it states: ‘If you are the successful high bidder when the auction closes, you will receive an Email confirmation immediately following the auction followed by an E-mail invoice in the next few days for your winnings.‘ |
Respectfully, I disagree. The set lot closed and Heritage reported me as the winner both on the lot and in my account. It’s not by “fiat” or “hot shot” lawyering it’s the plain language of the rules and the inherent nature of an auction. Once the gavel drops and the set was sold it’s over. It’s absurd to say that individual lots could be bid to later overtake the set after the bidding on the set was locked out —that’s clearly wrong.
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I wired the full set price to Heritage this morning. I hope that they do the right thing. I appreciate the debate and everyone’s comments even those who disagree with my conclusions. I don’t think anyone disagrees the set lot should have closed if it wasn’t closed. I didn’t take any snap shots but Heritage know it recorded it in my account as a win and sometime Saturday morning changed it.
I had no doubt I won the set after the set lot closed and it was in my account as a win (I was underbidder on the Gherig and might well have gone for that if I wasn’t in a good place on the BG’s.). Bottom line I confirmed my win and went to sleep. I was shocked to learn the next morning from this board that the individual lots “won.” |
It does seem like the general approach that Heritage chose to take, which kinda sorta seems like what is discussed in very vague terms in their terms is something like this:
Run the auction like we always do, with zero changes to format to accommodate the mechanics here. The next day when all the dust settles and all of the lots are closed, Heritage sits down and adds up all of the individual lots, and compare it to the lot for the set. Whichever total is the biggest, wins, and the other lot or lots are SOL. Obviously that means that everyone is basically flying blind, and with zero ability to attempt to really compete on a level playing field. All of which can easily lead to the disagreements, angst, and a whole lot of pissed off people who thought they should have won. Cue the last 90% of this thread. Then ratchet up the angst by a factor of 100x because these are some very desirable and incredibly rare pieces that a lot of people really, really want for their collection. |
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T.S. Eliot Sorry, back to the discussion. |
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my 2 cents
Well,
Like I think is a unanimous opinion around this, Heritage really messed up the mechanics here and poorly communicated the "process" (it was a unique situation for them and should have been much more explicitly communicated) - if the way it went down was what was intended. One thing that I would like to add that "should" have happened here in addition to all the BG lots staying open till none of them had bids for 30 minutes, is that the "current" bid of the set lot should have increased as the aggregate bids on the individual lots did - reflecting either a winning set bid or a losing one that could then be increased. Based on the specific wording that has been clearly pointed out, I suspect this possibility may have been considered and determined to be too much trouble or expense to make the necessary software changes. That said, like most - I think the situation SUCKS royally!! While I understand the point you are making Powell as well as why you would have gone to sleep thinking you won, I think the way the wording sits hurts your position. |
Chose Long Term Happiness over Pleasure.... Make Peace with whatever happens....It's in Gods Hands
If it's meant to be it's meant to be if it's not it's not. Life Goes On Just Make Peace with whatever happens. Either Way I wish you the best. It's only cards, you're happiness is more important. |
Has heritage reached out to anyone concerning this issue ,,what are they waiting for??
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Here is an interesting hypothetical, and is nothing more than hypothetical considering (1) we don’t know if Powell had in a max bid that exceeded his last bid, and (2) it’s unlikely that Powell would have been able to bid against himself (in the complete set lot), but what happens in this situation:
Powell is high bidder on the set at $615k with a max bid placed of $640k. When the 30 minute timer on the set lot ends, Powell’s $615k bid is higher than the aggregate of the individual lots at $610. However, some of the individual lots remain open and one lot gets two more bids before it closes, pushing the aggregate to $620k. Powell has a $640k max bid placed, but his auction is closed, so his auction will not recognize the $640k max bid, which would have beat the $615k aggregate…. |
That's a good one. If nothing else I think that would give Heritage pretty good cover to award the lot to Powell based on an actual bid higher than the aggregate individual bids.
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I did not put in a max bid. I waited until the lot closed and I was declared the winner. The acceptance of my bid and closing the lot was the completion of the contract. The actual performance trumps an interpretation of the “rules” as contract law makes it a deal. The deal was ratified when listed on my account as a win. That ratification was not necessary but I did double check that when I went to sleep.
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Someone else mentioned that the lot for the set should have had its bid automatically increase to reflect the total of the individual lots as well as everything staying open until they all closed together. Clearly none of that happened. |
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I know it stings, and I'm sorry you lost. But you did lose unfair and square. |
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It is insane to me that these things were not linked for a company moving hundreds of millions of dollars worth of collectibles per year. |
Or what if one of the individual lots closed before the set and that bidder was told they won first? Would that also be considered completion of the contract and would that person have a legal claim to the individual lot they "won".
Clearly Heritage was premature in saying anyone "won" anything until all the lots were closed. |
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Hopefully Heritage allows the auctions to be extended for you. But that would be a major courtesy to you if they do. But to claim (yes, by fiat) that your lot ending also halts any bidding wars that might be taking place on the other individual lots is, of course, absurd. If you want to argue that you should have been given the opportunity to continue increasing your bid amount to compete against the individual lots, then that's a more fair argument to make. But to just claim that their action suddenly ends, while they're in the midst of a bidding war, is just wishful, silly, magical thinking. |
Did heritage ever send you an invoice??? If not I'm curious why did you send them money?
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Thank you Peter. I don’t appreciate being called a “sore loser.” I have lost thousands of lots over the years with no complaint. I believe I won legitimately and I don’t think anyone thinks it was fair to close the set lot if I didn’t win and the battle “wasn’t over” even though I believe it was.
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At a minimum, Powell should receive a phone call from Chris Ivy today to discuss this dizzying issue. These are large sums of money involved here and Chris should in charge of trying to make it right. If Heritage accepted Powell's payment after, I guess, it was their computer that told him he had won the lot, then the contract has ben fulfilled and he is the winner of all the BG's.
In my many years in and out of the hobby, I have never seen such a boondoggle. |
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